Anyone tried this powder with 180 gr bullets? I was re-reading the Brian Pearce article in an old Handloader and he wrote highly of this powder with this bullet weight. I know, I should try more loads and read less :P ....but in my area it's hard to find much other than Unique, Bullseye and 2400. I refuse to pay hazmat fees, plus shipping on just one or two pounds of powder to try. Ordering through a LGS takes quite a while as they wait until they have a large enough order to spread out the haz mat fees.
I have read lots of good things about the powder too. Some of them in that same article you reference. It's the issue with the Kimber 10mm on the cover from about 3 years ago.
My LGS stocks the powder, but I just don't see spending the extra bucks for a lb of it. Longshot, Power Pistol, and AA#9 seem to give me very similar performance.
I would be interested in hearing anothers experience though
There were some people that posted some loads for it over at GlockTalk. The nearest LGS (BPS) that stocks any powder is 80 miles away (other local stores quit carring any reloading stuff), and they don't have any VV Powders.
Oh well! ::)
Is it that much more expensive? The local BPS has Longshot but it's 35% higher than the Alliant powders. They don't stock AA#X or any VV powders. I know the 'boutique' places use LS but I'm still leery of the pressure.
At my LGS, Alliant powders are generally $16-18/lb. Hodgdon and Accurate powders are usually $18-$20/lb. The Vihtavuori powders are $30-$35/lb.
So, yeah, they are a bunch more.
I thought the cost of living was supposed to be cheaper in the South? LOL Alliant is 22.95, the LS 29.95 etc. I'm already paying a premium and haven't gotten to any VV powders yet. :o
Alliant Tech Aerospace is just s few miles from my house and everybody and there dog works there is seems. So, the local retailers have to be especially competitive to ever get business what with employee pricing.
I don't know why Hodgdon would be cheap here though.
Quote from: EdMc on September 06 2012 11:12:06 AM MDT
I know the 'boutique' places use LS but I'm still leery of the pressure.
For Double Tap, yes. For Underwood I've only ever heard assumptions suggesting that. Do you know for sure about Underwood?
Quote from: REDLINE on September 06 2012 04:22:15 PM MDT
Do you know for sure about Underwood?
No, I know nothing for sure, just the usual internet lurking. I usually do most of my shooting over a chrono at a friends place....he's reloaded for many years so I trust his opinion. Anyway, he pointed out some subtle primer changes on my loads that were slightly over 9 gr of LS and measured case expansion indicated rising pressure. In my G20SF the velocity averaged just under 1200 fps (180 XTP). In the article I referenced this would be around the test load starting velocity of the VV-N350 with a 180 GD in a 5 in Kimber.
What I seek isn't the fastest load, but something with a 180 gr solidly over 1200 fps without pushing the pressure envelope and decent accuracy.
Quote from: EdMc on September 06 2012 08:52:16 PM MDT
What I seek isn't the fastest load, but something with a 180 gr solidly over 1200 fps without pushing the pressure envelope and decent accuracy.
In that case, probably both Vihtavuori 3N38 and N105 would be better choices than N350. I'm certainly not suggesting to not try N350.
Quote from: REDLINE on September 07 2012 08:15:19 AM MDT
In that case, probably both Vihtavuori 3N38 and N105 would be better choices than N350. I'm certainly not suggesting to not try N350.
Looking at manuals I have and reading the VV section on GT, you might be right. The Pearce article and Speer #14 are the only sources I've found that mention VV-N350. Min 8.5gr @ 1,225 - Max 10.0gr @ 1,379 from the Handloader article. That's what caught my eye.....easily over 1200 with plenty more to go if you wished. Speer cut their load of N350 off at 9.7gr @ 1150. Same powder, GD, & primer. Kinda makes you wonder, don't it? ;)
Most NEW reloading manuals have downloaded the 10MM. There are a LOT of Colt DE's and Glocks out there with unsupported chambers .I think the powder companies are just playing it safe.
Sean
Yeah, I've heard that and then others say it's because of a change in pressure testing devices causing the reevaluation. Obviously, the consumer will be the last to know. :D
Quote from: EdMc on September 07 2012 10:46:12 AM MDT
The Pearce article and Speer #14 are the only sources I've found that mention VV-N350. Min 8.5gr @ 1,225 - Max 10.0gr @ 1,379 from the Handloader article. That's what caught my eye.....easily over 1200 with plenty more to go if you wished. Speer cut their load of N350 off at 9.7gr @ 1150. Same powder, GD, & primer. Kinda makes you wonder, don't it? ;)
It definitly makes one wonder.
I only have the Speer #13, and they don't even show a 10mm load in it with N350. They do for 3N37 with a 180gr Gold Dot.....the max charge weight they show is 10.0 grains hitting 1150fps (CCI300 primer and COL of 1.250" and Hornady Brass) from a S&W 1006 with a 5" barrel. What test platform for velocities are they claiming they used in the #14 version with N350?
The same test procedure in Speer #14. Same S&W 1006, components, and COAL. The Handloader article used a 5 in Kimber, Starline, CCI primers........COAL wasn't given for individual loads only that the max was 1.260 and all used a crimp of .418 inches. The article, unlike most, showed many powders at multiple loads with many bullet weights. As an example the 180 GD was tested with 9 different powders at various charges. I'd guess they used a COAL of 1.250 w/ the 180 GDs as the velocity was pretty close to Speer's with a max of 11.0 gr. BD @ 1267.
Interesting.
Of special note; I'm surprised the Handloader data showed the amount of crimp. Also, IMO, .418" of crimp seems to be quite a bit, and more than any factory ammo I've measured. I'm not suggesting right or wrong here, just generally commenting.
The Atlanta Arms stuff I shoot at the indoor range has no measurable crimp.......I've been using .419, I forget where I came up with that figure. :-\
Depends on how you measure it.
For instance...here is some Double Tap Nosler 135 old stock I recently found.
Measured on the large "flats" of my caliper, I get .424":
(http://fellingfamily.net/images/crimpAtFlats.jpg)
But, if I measure right on the leading edge of the case rim with the thin tips of the calipers, I get .416":
(http://fellingfamily.net/images/crimpAtTips.jpg)
Now, the case actually has a little bulge that is being measured in the first picture. If I use the tips and measure the bulge .110" below the base mouth, I get .423":
(http://fellingfamily.net/images/crimpAtBulge.jpg)
And just below the bulge, .210" from the case mouth, I get .416 again:
(http://fellingfamily.net/images/crimpBelowBulge.jpg)
The bulge tells me the round was seated and crimped together and the brass started to buckle at the bottom because of the extreme crimp. The brass was so tight the bullet could not slip any further, so the brass moved with it. If you are going to use an aggressive crimp like this, you really need to do it in two steps: seat, then crimp.
Finally, looking at a pulled bullet, it has been swaged way down. Right below the shoulder of the bullet we see it's diameter reduced to .394":
(http://fellingfamily.net/images/DT_nosler135_pull-2.jpg)
At the base it measured .401". I haven't really shot these from a bench that I recall, but I would expect accuracy to improve if the crimp were lessened a good bit. I expect there is significant possibility the bullet won't enter the rifling square, and therefore the base won't exit the crown square. This will cause the group size to open up.
The pulled powder looks like Longshot, so I am going to work up some loads and test accuracy and speed at some point. Living an hour from a good place to set up the chrony means it may be a few weeks though.
Hey sqlbullet, what did the load of LongShot weigh from that pulled round?
11.4 was the powder charge on the scale.
11.5 was calculated by weighing the loaded round, then pulling, then weighing the bullet and case without the powder and subtracting.
This is about .2 higher than recent reports of 11.2 and 11.3 grains. Also, this is probably four years old or more, so it is likely from back when DT made their claims. This could indicated they backed down the load. It could also indicate a slightly heavy charge.
After I have tested these over a Chrony, if I have 5 left I will pull them and report each individual weight as well as the average.
Come on, what was the overall length? Must you make it so hard? :D
Yeah, I measure the crimp at the the edge with the 'knife' end of the caliper jaws. Crimped in a Lee crimping die as a separate step.
The gun show was a complete bust......very small number of dealers and NO deals that I saw. No powder either, except the usual I can find anywhere. bleh.....
1.245" was the COL.
By chance sqlbullet, what was advertised velocity at that time on those 135's?
Here ya go:
(http://fellingfamily.net/images/DT_Nosler135_box.jpg)
Thanks! ;D
Meanwhile..... ;) I gave in, surrendered or whatever you want to call it and ordered some VV-N350, haz-mat fees and all. I gotta know......
Looking forward to hear how it goes
Definitely looking forward to the results of N350 in conjunction with a 180gr bullet.
I did get some 180 Gold Dots to try, too. I measured them for something to do ......0.633 to 0.639 length and the 180 XTPs were all around 0.618. From 0.015 to 0.020 longer for the GDs. Shows why it's a good idea to match the exact bullets used in load data. ;)
Do you have any 180gr FMJ laying around to take a measurement of for comparison to the JHPs?
I've got some 180gr Golden Sabers that come to .623".
Thanks for giving me something to do. :D
Glad to help. :D I'll make note of that on the Golden Sabres, very little difference between them and the XTPs.
Quote from: EdMc on September 10 2012 02:55:36 PM MDT
I did get some 180 Gold Dots to try, too. I measured them for something to do ......0.633 to 0.639 length and the 180 XTPs were all around 0.618. From 0.015 to 0.020 longer for the GDs. Shows why it's a good idea to match the exact bullets used in load data. ;)
Yep, good point there. Or, if not matching the bullet, it's a good idea to do the measurements and calculations so the base of the bullet is in the same place as the load data, so the case volume is the same.
Quote from: EdMc on September 06 2012 08:52:16 PM MDT
Quote from: REDLINE on September 06 2012 04:22:15 PM MDT
Do you know for sure about Underwood?
Pulled down UW bullets on another website looks just like 800-X.
No, I know nothing for sure, just the usual internet lurking. I usually do most of my shooting over a chrono at a friends place....he's reloaded for many years so I trust his opinion. Anyway, he pointed out some subtle primer changes on my loads that were slightly over 9 gr of LS and measured case expansion indicated rising pressure. In my G20SF the velocity averaged just under 1200 fps (180 XTP). In the article I referenced this would be around the test load starting velocity of the VV-N350 with a 180 GD in a 5 in Kimber.
What I seek isn't the fastest load, but something with a 180 gr solidly over 1200 fps without pushing the pressure envelope and decent accuracy.
Blue Dot and Accurate no. 9 get me comfortably above 1200 fps in my G20 with a 180 XTP using Hornady data. The no. 9 loads are a ways below book max @ 1225 fps.
The Blue Dot I have never got close to the Hornady nor Speer loading's velocity. .. Duplication of their use of bullets, primers etc., only difference was Starline instead of Hornady brass. Slight increase in a Smith 1006 with 5 in barrel but still well off. Maybe a bad lot, who knows, I'm not wasting my time with it anymore. My loads with Power Pistol were right on book values so I know of no other explanation. If the N350 doesn't work out I'll move on to 800X........at least I can find that locally.
Okay, finally fired 5 rds 9.5 of N-350, 1.250 COAL, CCI 300, Gold Dot 180 & Starline.
Only two shots registered on the chrono....1269 and 1251. Bad news was three smile....two having signs of primer leakage and one primer not pierced but deeply indented. All fired from a stock G20SF.
This load was under Speer's max for N-350 but was ~110 fps over their max load (9.7) results. With my trials with Blue Dot I was that much 'under' their results.
The other two cases measured .434 or slightly over at their max bulge. Obviously, I'll be starting over at a lesser load and maybe bump the COAL out to 1.260. The N-350 has possibilities..........
That data is miles over Vihtavuori's published data for 10mm and N350. The list 6.6 grains as a max under a 180 grain JHP. (http://www.lapua.com/en/products/reloading/vihtavuori-reloading-data/relodata/6/24)
They also list N105 as the best performer in 10mm with 180 grain bullets. It delivers 1208 fps from 9.9 grains of powder.
It certainly is......
If you remember you told me about the Handloader article some time back and I ordered a copy. Pearce started at 8.5 and went to 10.0 in a Kimber Target II......I know, ramped and fully supported barrel. Speer #14 starts at 8.9 and goes to 9.7, although their max velocity was only 1152. At their max load of BD Speer got 1295, I got 1138. Confusing....ain't it? ;D It's not like I just made the N-350 load up on my own. Anyway, the N-350 shows promise, the Blue Dud was a waste of time and money. Contacting Alliant about the BD wasted more time......
So I'll cut back on the N-350 load and see how it goes.......
Yeah... I know there is other data.
Just giving a kindly word of caution that you might want to work up from a lower charge.
And, I am all for hot rodding. Just wanted to be sure you were aware of the factory data. Might also be worth an email to Handloader to confirm the powder they were using....
Thanks, I knew what you were saying. The Speer data is why I wasn't too worried about being over VV's values. Euro company in a litigious country etc.....
Good idea on contacting Handloader.....I may do just that since I'm now a subscriber. They might even give an answer. ;D
Quote from: EdMc on September 21 2012 08:18:41 AM MDT
So I'll cut back on the N-350 load and see how it goes.......
Great work. I'm anxious to see further results. By the way, I've seen it said the Vihtavuori are clean burning. Did the N350 seem to burn clean?
More stupid than great as sqbullet pointed out. No real difference between 9.5 and 9.7 grains which was Speer's max load. I should know better and have started lower......but I was lucky.. this time. :o
The Glock was dirty when fired so no way I know how clean the VV was. Wasn't expecially loud nor any big flash even at what was an overcharge. I've got a few loaded at 9.0 @ 1.250 and some XTPs loaded at 8.5 @1.260 that I plan to try tomorrow.
Also sent an email to Handloader to ask what COAL they used in the original test with 180 GDs in the Kimber. I'd think the better support of the Kimber barrel would allow the use of a higher loading. They went up to 10.0 grains at well over 1300 fps in their testing. They claimed non of the loads exceeded SAAMI pressure standards. Who knows? ;D
So, the 9.0 gr of N-350 @ 1.250, 180 GD averaged 1206 out of the G20SF. I think this is as high as I care to go for use in the Glock without loading longer.
The 8.5 gr of N-350 @ 1.260, 180 XTP averaged 1150.....I'd meant to load these with WLP but loaded them in cases with CCI 300 like the first load mentioned.
Also shot some loads of 9.0 gr Longshot, 1.265, WLP, 180 XTP and Starline out of a Colt Delta. Average velocity was 1262 fps.........but all cases had smileys. Hornady's max is 8.2 gr @ 1150....1.260 OAL.....now I know why. ::) These averaged 1198 in the G20SF as I remember.
And so it goes........
The Colt Delta Elite barrel was stock? If so, the smilies wouldn't be too surprising as their barrel seems to have less 10mm case support than any other. I wonder if the smilies would show up in a Glock barrel too.
Yeah, stock Delta barrel. Basically the same load in the G20 didn't produce any smileys. Velocity was just short of 1200 in the Glock.
I edited the above post as I'd loaded the Longshot to 1.265 for some reason.
Great info! Thanks EdMc. 8)
Concur...Excellent data.