Hello. I've owned a Glock 20 Gen 3 for a year or so, and I've pretty much always shot Underwood 180 grain TMJ ammo through it. It's the least expensive of the full power 10mm loadings and when DoubleTap and Buffalo Bore are 60% more expensive, it seems a logical choice. The problem is that this combination of gun and ammo has NEVER been reliable. At first, I thought that the gun needed a break in, then I thought that I'd just gotten a bad batch of ammo from Underwood (first, I was buying 200 grain TMJs which jammed, so I switched to 180 rain TMJs which seemed to feed better), but the more I shoot the gun, the more frustrated I become.
Today, I was getting failures to feed with both Underwood 180 grain TMJ and Underwood 180 grain JHP (XTP) ammo, both obviously from different production lots - multiple bullet nosedives or other kinds of failures to feed per mag, with multiple mags. I also shot 30 rounds of DoubleTap 200 grain WFNGC Hardcast, however, and didn't get a single malfunction. I've used stock barrel and recoil spring up until now, but today when the gun started to malfunction, I tried out my KKM Precision barrel, both with the standard recoil spring and a 20 lb recoil spring. I got the same kind of malfunctions with every combination I tried. To be clear, the last two times I shot the gun, I was using Underwood 180 grain TMJs, and the last time (when I remembered to bring my video camera to the range to record the malfunctions), I didn't get a single malfunction. The time before that, I got one failure to return to battery per mag. Very frustrating.
My question is, what do I give up on: the gun or the ammo? I'm looking at a couple courses of action:
1) Sell the gun and buy a new one (might try out a Gen 4 Glock 20) or a used one if I can find it for the right price - I will probably take a $150 loss on the deal, but from reports I've read, this could solve the problem.
2) Continue to troubleshoot the ammo, buy a calipers so I can measure cartridge OAL, contact Underwood if the ammo is out of spec, buy more DoubleTap ammo to see if I can feed that brand reliably - I will probably take a $150 loss in all the cost of ammo used purely for testing purposes and may not solve the problem.
3) I do not want to send the gun back to Glock. From what I've read, they don't even recommend using Underwood ammo, so they may not even be able to reproduce the problem at their factory. Add onto that, I'd have no 10mm handgun for multiple weeks in the summer when I do the most backpacking in bear country - NOT an option.
4) Something I haven't thought of?
5) Sell the Glock and buy a Sig P220 10mm instead. ;D
Thoughts?
Did you buy it used?
They do not make the regular frame gen 3 20 anymore, think they do still make the sf.
Find a glock armourer and get them to look at it, but i would just send it to glock myself.
Quote from: rw on July 09 2015 11:11:26 PM MDT
Did you buy it used?
They do not make the regular frame gen 3 20 anymore, think they do still make the sf.
Find a glock armourer and get them to look at it, but i would just send it to glock myself.
It is the SF version, but I bought it more than a year ago in any case. What would a Glock armorer do, do you think? To my knowledge, they are mostly trained to disassemble the gun and swap out parts.
A few years ago, my son had a similar problem with a Glock 10MM and I convinced him to trade it on a new Glock .40. Later, I regretted that decision when the gunsmith at the shop we traded with said it only needed a couple of new parts and was functioning fine. He didn't say which parts, so I can be of no help there.
Is there a legit reason that Glock won't use Underwood? I have no experience with them.
"3) I do not want to send the gun back to Glock. From what I've read, they don't even recommend using Underwood ammo, so they may not even be able to reproduce the problem at their factory. Add onto that, I'd have no 10mm handgun for multiple weeks in the summer when I do the most backpacking in bear country - NOT an option."
I dont know if this is true, i had not heard this myself,.. But the fact that you shot (only one other brand) DT with no issues combined with your above statement gives you a direction to go IMO.
If you send it to Glock, they will test it with Blazer 180 gr. TMC ammo. It will shoot fine (for them), and they will return it to you. They do not endorse any ammo, other than major name-brand, such as Win, Fed, and Rem. Underwood is a boutique manufacturer, so not recognized by most (if not all) firearm mfg's. If you ask them, they will repeat what is in your owner's manual. BTW, Underwood and DoubleTap are NOT the same. Not even close.
Quote from: DM1906 on July 10 2015 10:09:31 PM MDT
BTW, Underwood and DoubleTap are NOT the same. Not even close.
Would you please elaborate?
UW is the hottest and may be slightly pushing what SOME Glocks can handle. DT until very recently has downloaded their ammo from advertised velocity. I believe some of Intercoolers recent testing has shown they are putting their numbers back up. Have you tried 22 pound recoil springs or anything? Maybe even just a new stock factory spring is needed. Old one might be all messed up, who knows? I've had issues with UW 180 gr in the past a couple of times but never any with the 165 grain. Give that a try. For bear country I would try both Underwood's hardcast loadings for reliability, if they fail buy Doubletap, even if it's not as hot. Best of luck. Let us know how things go.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/127997/federal-premium-vital-shok-ammunition-10mm-auto-180-grain-trophy-bonded-jacketed-soft-point-box-of-20
This would also be a great choice I think. Plenty powerful and safe to shoot in a Delta Elite.
My SF did not like then Underwood 180 grain load at all. It loves the 165 grain load from Underwood. I would suggest giving this load a try before you go through the hassle of selling it and getting another gun.
I have found the Gen 4 to be more forgiving of ammo selection. Others however, have not had the same experience.
Sell it! If it won't run what you like to shoot, get one that will... my motto ;)
Yeah, what Dave84 said about DT. To this day, they are still well short of claims, or what they were years ago. Underwood will, normally, perform as advertised in like firearms.
My Gen 3 fullsize stock barrel did not like the 200 gr TMJ. All else from U/W works. Run a 22lb spring Wolff and steel guide rod. I also changed out mag springs with Wolffs +10%. I keep em loaded. But I keep the nuke out. Just run the 165's and 180's mostly for social work.
Thanks for the thoughts. Ultimately, I decided to prioritize ammo feeding. My Gen 3 Glock 20SF can't feed the ammo that I want to shoot, and has failed with several different versions of that ammo, so that gun is sold. I appreciate the feedback from people saying that their Glocks couldn't feed certain 180 grain loadings while the 165 grain ammo worked. However, this gun is for bear and moose protection, so I really bought it to shoot 180-220 grain bullets.
I've got a Gen 4 Glock 20 coming to my FFL this week, so I will be able to test a second gun with this particular Underwood 180 grain TMJ ammo. I will update this thread with what I find. If the second gun fails with the same boxes of ammo that were making my first gun fail, then I'll contact Underwood and try to figure something out. I know you can't return ammo, but I've got like 700 rounds of this stuff, and if a large quantity of it is out of spec, then surely they will want to make that right.
Good luck and congrats. I like my Gen 4 a lot. One thing I have found is that reliability with Underwood increased with the use of a 24 pound aftermarket RSA. I got it from Glockmeister, and it has been reliable with Underwood when the stock spring hasn't been.
I hope you won't need it though.
Quote from: t6t0 on July 13 2015 06:07:00 PM MDT
Thanks for the thoughts. Ultimately, I decided to prioritize ammo feeding. My Gen 3 Glock 20SF can't feed the ammo that I want to shoot, and has failed with several different versions of that ammo, so that gun is sold. I appreciate the feedback from people saying that their Glocks couldn't feed certain 180 grain loadings while the 165 grain ammo worked. However, this gun is for bear and moose protection, so I really bought it to shoot 180-220 grain bullets.
I've got a Gen 4 Glock 20 coming to my FFL this week, so I will be able to test a second gun with this particular Underwood 180 grain TMJ ammo. I will update this thread with what I find. If the second gun fails with the same boxes of ammo that were making my first gun fail, then I'll contact Underwood and try to figure something out. I know you can't return ammo, but I've got like 700 rounds of this stuff, and if a large quantity of it is out of spec, then surely they will want to make that right.
Congrats on the new gun. You should let me take some of that ammo off your hands 8)
With the slide off of your guns that are having issues, have you tried sliding the cartridge up from the bottom and under the extractor and check it for fitment? The cartridge should slide in without much resistance, but should be held by the extractor.
In rare cases the wrong extractor may be placed in the firearms or the tolerances may be slightly off and can be too tight or too dry of lubricant or debris. However it may be with all ammo and not just some.
The impulse of some of the high performance ammo like Underwood and Double Tap can accelerate the slide to such an extent it will not pick up the ammo and push it forward and up into the chamber.
Things that come to mind are magazine follower & spring not pushing up the ammo smoothly or in time for the slide to push it forward at the right time to transition to the chamber.
I run the Wolf Non captive 22lb for my G-20SF and I have tried to limp wrist, gangsta shooter (gun laid on its side) and even shooting it upside down trying to induce a failure to feed. However thankfully my runs flawlessly with anything I have fed it!
You might also check the magazine presentation and ejector alignment. With the magazine full, the top cartridge should be (almost exactly) parallel with the mag base (make sure the cartridge is all the way rearward in the mag). If this is correct (or after it's corrected), disassemble the pistol, set aside the slide, barrel and spring, and insert a full mag into the frame. The top cartridge or magazine lip should not contact the ejector, but be close enough you can force contact with firm upward force on the mag. The extractor should be slightly angled inward at the tip-end, and should be positioned above the case at about 10:30 (if it doesn't interfere with the slide during assembly, it is correct), and the tip of the ejector should be no more than 1/4" forward of the case head (typically .200-.240"). If either of these are incorrect, they can cause feeding and/or ejection issues, especially when coupled with any of the conditions previously mentioned.
Posting an update: I just picked up my new Gen 4 Glock 20 and put 60 rounds through it using the exact boxes of Underwood ammo that were giving me multiple failures per magazine with my other gun. I didn't have a single malfunction, which I count as a marked improvement. Barring any changes to reliability that result from the gun breaking in, it looks like the issue I was having was a gun issue and not purely an ammo issue. Going to count this as "problem solved."
Congrats and well done. 8)
My Gen 4 20 is my favorite.
Quote from: t6t0 on July 15 2015 07:11:51 PM MDT
Posting an update: I just picked up my new Gen 4 Glock 20 and put 60 rounds through it using the exact boxes of Underwood ammo that were giving me multiple failures per magazine with my other gun. I didn't have a single malfunction, which I count as a marked improvement. Barring any changes to reliability that result from the gun breaking in, it looks like the issue I was having was a gun issue and not purely an ammo issue. Going to count this as "problem solved."
Was this original Glock new or used when you initially got it? I'm just curious.
Quote from: Brian B. on July 16 2015 07:55:34 AM MDT
Quote from: t6t0 on July 15 2015 07:11:51 PM MDT
Posting an update: I just picked up my new Gen 4 Glock 20 and put 60 rounds through it using the exact boxes of Underwood ammo that were giving me multiple failures per magazine with my other gun. I didn't have a single malfunction, which I count as a marked improvement. Barring any changes to reliability that result from the gun breaking in, it looks like the issue I was having was a gun issue and not purely an ammo issue. Going to count this as "problem solved."
Was this original Glock new or used when you initially got it? I'm just curious.
I bought both of them new. The original Gen 3 20SF had problems shooting the 200 grain Underwood ammo pretty much right out of the box.
You seem to definitely be in the minority in having a Gen3 that a.) had issues and b.) was not relatively easily fixable. I'd continue to test out that Gen4 G20, they definitely have not been the most reliable with higher powered ammo...
I'll go on record that the issue is the TMJ period. Doesn't feed in Glock barrel.
Quote from: pacapcop on July 16 2015 07:44:58 PM MDT
I'll go on record that the issue is the TMJ period. Doesn't feed in Glock barrel.
I did try shooting the same ammo in my Gen 3 that I sold, with a KKM Precision barrel, and it still jammed.
It's the ammo, well rather the bullet shape. No doubt about it. In fact, you will notice UW doesn't sell their TMJ 200 or 220 gr 10mm bullet ammo anymore. It was not the OAL, but rather a combination of the length and bullet shape. I like and use UW, but that ammo would not feed in three of my 10mm guns. I could take say 1 each of all the different 10mm ammo I own (over 10 types including my reloads), and in random order fill mags of different guns. Guns, each one, would stop (partially feed) with the UW 200gr (sometimes the 180gr as well)
This is with Glock and S&W and LW and RMW barrels..........(my LW barrel is known tight and it for sure won't take ANY UW)
Quote from: Pablo on July 17 2015 05:46:20 AM MDT
It's the ammo, well rather the bullet shape. No doubt about it. In fact, you will notice UW doesn't sell their TMJ 200 or 220 gr 10mm bullet ammo anymore. It was not the OAL, but rather a combination of the length and bullet shape. I like and use UW, but that ammo would not feed in three of my 10mm guns. I could take say 1 each of all the different 10mm ammo I own (over 10 types including my reloads), and in random order fill mags of different guns. Guns, each one, would stop (partially feed) with the UW 200gr (sometimes the 180gr as well)
This is with Glock and S&W and LW and RMW barrels..........(my LW barrel is known tight and it for sure won't take ANY UW)
. Do they use a different fmj design now?
Pretty sure they don't sell that ammo any more.
Quote from: Brian B. on July 10 2015 09:28:10 PM MDT
"3) I do not want to send the gun back to Glock. From what I've read, they don't even recommend using Underwood ammo, so they may not even be able to reproduce the problem at their factory. Add onto that, I'd have no 10mm handgun for multiple weeks in the summer when I do the most backpacking in bear country - NOT an option."
I dont know if this is true, i had not heard this myself,.. But the fact that you shot (only one other brand) DT with no issues combined with your above statement gives you a direction to go IMO.
I don't know, but if I will be in bear country and maybe get into a SHTF situation, I would not be staking my life on an unreliable weapon!
Quote from: Pablo on July 17 2015 05:46:20 AM MDT
It's the ammo, well rather the bullet shape. No doubt about it. In fact, you will notice UW doesn't sell their TMJ 200 or 220 gr 10mm bullet ammo anymore. It was not the OAL, but rather a combination of the length and bullet shape. I like and use UW, but that ammo would not feed in three of my 10mm guns. I could take say 1 each of all the different 10mm ammo I own (over 10 types including my reloads), and in random order fill mags of different guns. Guns, each one, would stop (partially feed) with the UW 200gr (sometimes the 180gr as well)
This is with Glock and S&W and LW and RMW barrels..........(my LW barrel is known tight and it for sure won't take ANY UW)
]
Hmm. I don't think it's the ammo. My original Gen 3 choked on BOTH TMJs and XTP hollow points. My Gen 4 can feed both.
Quote from: t6t0 on July 17 2015 07:31:46 PM MDT
Quote from: Pablo on July 17 2015 05:46:20 AM MDT
It's the ammo, well rather the bullet shape. No doubt about it. In fact, you will notice UW doesn't sell their TMJ 200 or 220 gr 10mm bullet ammo anymore. It was not the OAL, but rather a combination of the length and bullet shape. I like and use UW, but that ammo would not feed in three of my 10mm guns. I could take say 1 each of all the different 10mm ammo I own (over 10 types including my reloads), and in random order fill mags of different guns. Guns, each one, would stop (partially feed) with the UW 200gr (sometimes the 180gr as well)
This is with Glock and S&W and LW and RMW barrels..........(my LW barrel is known tight and it for sure won't take ANY UW)
]
Hmm. I don't think it's the ammo. My original Gen 3 choked on BOTH TMJs and XTP hollow points. My Gen 4 can feed both.
200 grain TMJ from UW? About when was this?
Quote from: Pablo on July 17 2015 07:34:42 PM MDT
Quote from: t6t0 on July 17 2015 07:31:46 PM MDT
Quote from: Pablo on July 17 2015 05:46:20 AM MDT
It's the ammo, well rather the bullet shape. No doubt about it. In fact, you will notice UW doesn't sell their TMJ 200 or 220 gr 10mm bullet ammo anymore. It was not the OAL, but rather a combination of the length and bullet shape. I like and use UW, but that ammo would not feed in three of my 10mm guns. I could take say 1 each of all the different 10mm ammo I own (over 10 types including my reloads), and in random order fill mags of different guns. Guns, each one, would stop (partially feed) with the UW 200gr (sometimes the 180gr as well)
This is with Glock and S&W and LW and RMW barrels..........(my LW barrel is known tight and it for sure won't take ANY UW)
]
Hmm. I don't think it's the ammo. My original Gen 3 choked on BOTH TMJs and XTP hollow points. My Gen 4 can feed both.
200 grain TMJ from UW? About when was this?
I bought the 200 grain Underwood TMJ a year or so ago and haven't bought it again due to all the jams, so I haven't tested that particular round in the Gen 4. However, the Gen 3 - my Gen 3 anyway - choked on 180 grain TMJ and 180 grain XTP, but both of these - ammo pulled from the same boxes that I used unsuccessfully with the Gen 3 - fed in the Gen 4.
I tend to doubt that it's a matter of Gen 4 being better than Gen 3. I think Glock is just inconsistent with some aspect of their Glock 20s, and I just got a lemon with my Gen 3.
I had issues with two G20's (Gen 4 and then SF) with Underwood, DoubleTap, etc, until I started to load my own ammo. I'm about 500 rounds into full power 10mm loads without a single problem. I even watched a completely novice female shooter shoot half of mag from it, barely holding the gun, and still no problems. There was one type of bullet it didn't like, 220gr wide noses, but it eats the 200gr Beartooths like candy, which are even wider.
I wish I hadn't gotten rid of the Gen 4.
So far my Gen4 20 eats everything I've fed it.
All I can say is if I am looking for bear protection, I want a piece that throws the heaviest piece of lead the fastest, and I definitely want to know when I pull the trigger it will go bang, and have the next round ready!
10mm or 9x25?
Pablo could you refine your question
Quote10mm or 9x25?
Are you asking about a bear protection?
Quote from: The_Shadow on July 23 2015 09:05:33 AM MDT
Pablo could you refine your question Quote10mm or 9x25?
Are you asking about a bear protection?
15 rounds of either. Which would you select for an angry grizzly?
I'd carry the 200XTP @ 1240 fps if all I had was the 10mm. The 9x25 is too small of a bullet even with the higher velocities, most 355" bullets are not designed for the speeds and some 357's might hold up, but you start trading speed for weight.
However I may would carry a bigger gun if I were anticipating dangerous animals such as big bears or lions/cats. Even hogs with their quick reactions may need a hefty shot well placed to be effective.
I'd feel better with a 44 magnum 240 grain of 260 grain being pushed at the upper performance range. ::)
For grizzlies the proverbial question is typically 5 shot hot .44 magnum vs. 15 shot hot heavy 10mm. One guy will say you'll be lucky to get a single shot off.
Wherein bear spray is recommended by a contigent of posters.
Quote from: Pablo on July 23 2015 11:24:13 AM MDT
For grizzlies the proverbial question is typically 5 shot hot .44 magnum vs. 15 shot hot heavy 10mm. One guy will say you'll be lucky to get a single shot off.
Wherein bear spray is recommended by a contigent of posters.
My 10mm's only hold 8 or 9 rounds, and I WOULD rather hit him with much more massive loads going about the same speed, hence my Taurus Raging Bull in .454 Casull.