So a while back I got some 180 grain Zero Brand JHP. I got'em loaded up and took a box to the range. I would have some round fail to go into battery. It took a lot of strength to pull the slide back to eject the round. What I notice is it seems like the bullet is wider than the casing. I thought maybe this was a freak thing but out of 50 rounds I had 9 that were like this. Did I do something wrong in my loading.
Brass is a mix bag of brands. The majority is Starline with some Remington and Hornady.
Brass is once fired and put through a Pass thru sizing die prior to resizing.
Lee 4 hole turret press with Lee Carbide dies.
Brass was wet tumbled in SS Pins.
Sized/Primed. Powder dumped. Then bullet seated. No crimp.
Any suggestions. Ive never had this happen before. Prior to the Zero Brand I loaded around 400 Hornady XTP.
When I get home I will post some pics of the rounds in question with measurements, "good" rounds and the specs of my load.
Ugh, I just got a large shipment of them in, hoping it is not the bullets (I bought on their reputation - never a good thing to do)! I'll chime in when I get a few of them loaded up.
You say the bullets were seated but no crimp was applied.
That would suggest you didn't flare the case mouth. If you didn't flare, there may be some imperceptible buckling that occurred as the bullet attempted to start in the un-flared case. If you did flare, then crimp is required to remove the flare.
As a final thought, the bullets could be oversize. You don't mention if you put the calipers to them, but I would. Even if they are within spec of .4005" by SAAMI, many commercial bullets I check come in around .399". The result is the smaller bullets may load fine with no flare, but larger bullets still in spec won't.
Quote from: cwall64 on July 07 2015 11:35:48 AM MDT
Ugh, I just got a large shipment of them in, hoping it is not the bullets (I bought on their reputation - never a good thing to do)! I'll chime in when I get a few of them loaded up.
Hmmm, I have never heard Zero had a GOOD reputation. I wonder if they even size them after they jacket them?
Quote from: gandog56 on July 07 2015 01:15:12 PM MDT
Quote from: cwall64 on July 07 2015 11:35:48 AM MDT
Ugh, I just got a large shipment of them in, hoping it is not the bullets (I bought on their reputation - never a good thing to do)! I'll chime in when I get a few of them loaded up.
Hmmm, I have never heard Zero had a GOOD reputation. I wonder if they even size them after they jacket them?
They seem to be liked over on Brian Enos' forum for competition - maybe I overstated it as reputation...
Did you measure the Bullets to see if they are 0.4000"? or other?
That should tell you if the bullets are the right size! It may be possible some 0.410 good in the mix?
I did not measure the bullet itself nor did I apply a crimp.
Quote from: sqlbullet on July 07 2015 01:08:36 PM MDT
You say the bullets were seated but no crimp was applied.
That would suggest you didn't flare the case mouth. If you didn't flare, there may be some imperceptible buckling that occurred as the bullet attempted to start in the un-flared case. If you did flare, then crimp is required to remove the flare.
As a final thought, the bullets could be oversize. You don't mention if you put the calipers to them, but I would. Even if they are within spec of .4005" by SAAMI, many commercial bullets I check come in around .399". The result is the smaller bullets may load fine with no flare, but larger bullets still in spec won't.
The die is a powder through expanding die so the mouths
should have been flared. Possible it got turned out a little bit, but its too inconsistent to be that I think. but going with what you said about bullet size and unflared case. I do run the Lee Auto Disk powder measure on top of the expanding die, so possibly it spun out a bit with that on top of the expanding die. With that in mind I will be checking the die before I do my next loading. If that's the case, I may have to look at a different die that locks the die in place better. One step at a time though.
Ill put calipers on the loaded bullets and photo them. I went and loaded all 250 I had in one sitting. Ill pull one of the bullets that don't work in my gun (RIA 1911) and measure it. Pic will probably be tomorrow as a couple of hours ago I was reminded I am covering for my 1800 replacement until 2200. thanks guys
Did you ream the inside of the case mouth with a deburring tool? You can get away with a bit smaller bell if you do that.
Based on my experience of 2 Rocks vs 2 Springfields, the Rocks tend to have tighter chambers. Reloads that would work in the Springfields would often not fully chamber in the Rocks. I had to screw the taper crimp die in more and run the ammo back through that step, and then they all worked.
Sorry that I am just getting to this. My wife had the day off yesterday, as did I, and she had a fun filled day planned. At least half the day was fishing.
Sailorman, thanks for the info. If they don't chamber in mine RIA, I will set them aside and see if they will chamber in my Ol' mans Witness. Here is some pics. This is just two different rounds. you will see the bullets are normal sized. I tried to get the "bulge" in there and the measurements you see are at the bottom of the bullet. I think I will reset my expanding die. Thoughts?
(http://i929.photobucket.com/albums/ad134/medic2314/8B823E98-B24F-4FB2-B3BF-1823508216E7_zpscmcskwqn.jpg) (http://s929.photobucket.com/user/medic2314/media/8B823E98-B24F-4FB2-B3BF-1823508216E7_zpscmcskwqn.jpg.html)
(http://i929.photobucket.com/albums/ad134/medic2314/36E93C3B-4F09-41B4-B935-8EDD807B9374_zpsyfmb65zc.jpg) (http://s929.photobucket.com/user/medic2314/media/36E93C3B-4F09-41B4-B935-8EDD807B9374_zpsyfmb65zc.jpg.html)
(http://i929.photobucket.com/albums/ad134/medic2314/699F143F-BDFE-4857-9115-ACB78E2A9DDB_zps9fuzyvlq.jpg) (http://s929.photobucket.com/user/medic2314/media/699F143F-BDFE-4857-9115-ACB78E2A9DDB_zps9fuzyvlq.jpg.html)
(http://i929.photobucket.com/albums/ad134/medic2314/03DFCE64-A6CA-4902-A95E-371FA5455CBF_zpsx9zxklp3.jpg) (http://s929.photobucket.com/user/medic2314/media/03DFCE64-A6CA-4902-A95E-371FA5455CBF_zpsx9zxklp3.jpg.html)
(http://i929.photobucket.com/albums/ad134/medic2314/B72E69FB-63A3-411D-8DFD-46CEA2AD2766_zpsyjprim8a.jpg) (http://s929.photobucket.com/user/medic2314/media/B72E69FB-63A3-411D-8DFD-46CEA2AD2766_zpsyjprim8a.jpg.html)
At 0.421" they should fit...Most chambers are 0.425" with most greater than that. It appears that you are you are over crimping or seating and crimping in the same step.
If you are seating and crimping in the same step, this would be an issue. As the bullet is being seated the case mouth starts to close while the bullet is still being pushed deeper. The case mouth grabs the moving bullet and starts to bulge the brass at a weak unsupported spot which will be below the taper portion of the crimp die.
The solution is the fully seat the bullets to the proper COAL without any crimp application (you can do that by raising the seater die up about 1/8")(I use a 1/8" Spacer ring) Then in a separate step lower the seater die back down to provide the taper crimp (I remove the spacer, the space is so I can maintain the setting of the die locking ring without having to adjust) you will raise the bullet seater stem so it doesn't push on the bullet while crimping is taking place.
Backing off on the crimp die might solve some of the problem, but using the two step method is the best procedure. ::)
If it is criming while seating that is probably the issue. Is was not my intention to put any crimp on them with bullets being held in place with the neck tension. I went through the other 200 rounds I had loaded and only found a few with this bulge. I loaded 150 in brass casings and 100 in Nickle Remington casings. I did not find one in the nickle casings. Im not going to pull them for these few but like I mentioned earlier set them aside and shoot them in Dad's Witness. Here is a pic of my shooting today. 180 Grain Zero Brand bullets loaded with 7.8 grains of Longshot from 25 yards no rest. Excuse the smaller holes as I finally stepped in to the world of AR15 by building one (but thats another topic). I was sighting in my open sights. Forgot extra targets at home. So in the end, I think my problem was my doing and not faulty components or equipment.
(http://i929.photobucket.com/albums/ad134/medic2314/B14F6979-C9A0-4F78-9C7B-E6D759170964_zpslxunh36i.jpg) (http://s929.photobucket.com/user/medic2314/media/B14F6979-C9A0-4F78-9C7B-E6D759170964_zpslxunh36i.jpg.html)
In the effort to save handloaders money the die makers make the dies to perform every step necessary to make suitable cartridges. While some can perform multiple task such as sizing and depriming or expanding and depriming or expanding and powder drop and even seating and crimping in separate or same step operations.
Take the seating and crimping die for example; If a bullet had a good cannelure groove such as the 38/357 44 spl/mag their bullet usually have a generous cannelure and a roll crimp has a place to go as the cannelure is present even as the bullet is still in motion, to do them in the same step operations.
However most semi auto pistol and rifles lack a cannelure groove on the projectile body, therefore if the die is not adjusted up and away from the top of the case neck, the crimp section of the die is contacted during bullet seating, the case mouth starts being squeezed inward, while the bullet is still in its downward travel.
By raising the seater crimp die up in such away that the crimp section doesn't contact the casing while the bullet is seated, provides an easier seating process, with less stress and strain. During this operation the bullet is free to slide inside the case neck. Then in a separate step the die can be lowered for the proper crimp and the seating stem raised so it barely makes contact with the projectile while you are applying the final crimp.
From the case mouth, it does appear that a decent amount of taper is being applied. That will cause brass to swell down lower on the case. It might just be the lighting in the photo, but the shiny edge appears to have been engaged heavily with the crimp die body.
Since 10mm dies share duty with 40 S&W, the die bodies need to be turned out farther to avoid crimping during seating. It's more than some would realize. I have 2 RCBS sets, for example, where I have to turn the die body WAY out, and the seating stem almost all the way in, in order to not engage crimp. Even then it will just barely start to close up the bell. My practice is to do like Shadow suggests and crimp (really just closing the bell) in a separate step at station 5.
Although I have previously loaded thousands of 10mm rounds while seating and crimping in the same step. It is doable, but never for plated bullets though, and I'm not really crimping. Just closing the bell and not turning the case mouth inward at all, just enough to drop into a gage.
The Rem nickel cases are thinner, so the crimp die was not engaging them as much as it would do with thicker brass.
Have fun with the AR! It is a nice platform, but if you shoot it enough you'll get to despise rifle brass prep after a while. Dang that gets tedious. A Dillon RF1200 press mounted electric trimmer is in my future!
QuoteHave fun with the AR! It is a nice platform, but if you shoot it enough you'll get to despise rifle brass prep after a while. Dang that gets tedious
Oh I know, I love shooting my bolt rifle for groups more than any other type of shooting, but prepping cases is the only thing keeping me from shooting it more often. I hate it especially trimming cases.
Looks just like my 200gr Nosler loads. I was having the same issue and then I bought a Wilson case gauge and found I needed more of a taper crimp and after a few adjustments they cycle just fine. While I'm running a batch I just check a few every 20-30 rounds and haven't had a problem since.
Stacy