I just finished reading the NRA's American Rifleman article Loading Bench by Layne Simpson the Resurgent: The 10mm Auto I like an article about the 10mm cartridge and guns but this one stinks!
Guys all I can say is this is an over packed advertisement piece, as they mention just about every gun an ammo maker as part of their selling gimmicks. While they show the EAA Witness pictured it was all about yet again 1911 style guns and they were used for the testing of their anemic handloads and factory ammo. For being a Loading Bench story, Only two handloads were shown one being Silhouette and Blue Dot...both being the newer lawyer document loading manual fodder.
While the author claims to have been a 10mm fan since the beginning, his choices to test with are still 1911 pistols and trying to give those makers their commercialism to keep them happy and paying the bills...He probably got the guns on loan for the bill payers. For being interested in the 10mm since the beginning, Mr. Layne Simpson doesn't mention if he owns any of the 10mm chambered guns used in the article or having any 10mm chambered as part of his collection...
This is the kind of BS, that has put the 10mm on the back burner where it simmer away to vapor...
There are people here on this site, that have a greater love for the 10mm cartridge and guns chambered in 10mm, than this guy ever will and they also know of the true ballistic potential 10mm is capable of from shooter's point of aim and also a handloaders perspective.
Sorry to be so damn negative about the article, but to me, it just reads as an extended advertisement! Overwhelmingly use of 1911 and even mentioning 45ACP and 9mm as part of the story.
Does anyone know the sales breakdown when it comes to 10mm's?
Do they sell more 1911's Glocks or EAA pieces.
Love all of them but my favorite is the basic Delta Elite.
I'd venture to say there are more Glocks being used in the 10mm offering because of price and availability...
The new Sig Sauer P220 wasn't shown or tested. None of the older 6 models of Smith and Wesson work horses were used to test. The Bren Ten were not either. No revolver either... ???
Does the author even own a gun chambered in 10mm?
Quote from: The_Shadow on June 20 2015 03:19:34 PM MDT
I'd venture to say there are more Glocks being used in the 10mm offering because of price and availability...
The new Sig Sauer P220 wasn't shown or tested. None of the older 6 models of Smith and Wesson work horses were used to test. The Bren Ten were not either. No revolver either... ???
Does the author even own a gun chambered in 10mm?
This sounds worthy of writing a letter to the editor. I mean, as a consumer of their product and an
actual fan of the 10mm Auto I'd say you have a pretty legitimate gripe with their "reporting." You made several very valid points that I think are worthy of bringing to the editor's attention and, possibly, including in the next issue (maybe with an explanation from American Rifleman?) Not sure how much time or energy you have to invest in this but it certainly couldn't hurt.
I was just on the NRA's facebook page, and was going to make a statement but I will wait for them to post the article then say my piece.
If you want to see something, pick up any gun magazine and count the times that 1911 and 45ACP are displayed or mentioned. It is like they are the only combination that exist. Every gun maker has their own 1911, after all the CNC info was public at one time.
Back in 1980's as the 10mm was taking on its development, I read and looked for info centering around the cartridge, ballistics and the guns being made to shoot the 10mm. I passed on the Bren Tens back then, none were to be had locally, the magazine issue also played into me not obtaining one back then. Colt came out with the DE in a 1911 style, it lacked chamber support more than halfway around the casing. But S&W produced the 1006 with adjustable sights with a 5" barrel, a magazine which held 9+1, it showed up locally and bought it right there on the spot. Still have it! Still shoot it!
While the S&W sort of looks like a 1911 it is not. It was made to handle the 10mm power from the start, Stainless Steel, proof tested ramped barrels, built like a tank! But yet when you saw the writings of the S&W pistols there was some negativity as the compared them to the 1911's...
Same for the "plastic guns", Glocks were always being pushed aside. But they are a simple pistol, fewer parts, easy to maintain and the 10mm ones have been capable shooters. The Ka-Booms have shown because of ammunition with setback issues, or overloaded stuff, even though case blowouts resulted from lack of feed ramp support of the gun.
To me it just seems like if it is not a 1911 or 45ACP it is not worthy of a proper writeup and fair evaluation! ::)
There are a lot of 1911 fanatics out there. My shooting partner lives and breathes 1911. And everything he owns is in 45 ACP. He talks a big talk about getting a 1911 in 10mm, but hasn't pulled the trigger and probably never will.
Honestly the more 10mm talk the better.
I am a 1911 fanboy first and got my Delta, RZ, Eclipse and Hunter. If I did not have the Delta I would have never bought the G29 and Sig 220.
Thats a good thing it builds of support and broadens the base.
The more the merrier, now lets get S&W to produce its 10mm in pistol and revolver.
I don't own a 1911 or .45ACP ;D At one point I have messed with both of them and ended up disappointed ;)
I really like my 1911. .45 is one of my go to calibers. Kinda like a wheel gun, can't have a collection without at least one. However, in an auto, what's not to love about the 10mm? Even blocks, not a fan, but have an earned reputation. Expand a mind, enjoy the hobby!
No trying to flame 1911, I have 2. RIA Tac II. One in .45 one in 10mm. The .45 is dead reliable. The 10mm not so much. Shoots accurate, but FTF like 2 per mag of 9. Re-rack slide then feeds in.
Same hand loads fire reliably in EAA limited and Match.. Sure fuss with springs, fuss with mags, fuss with new mag springs.
Sometimes you just want to shoot the thing.
I think the OAL of 10mm is on the edge for 1911. Some guns run, some are fussy.
Must be the mags .....
The 45ACP has a COAL 1.2750" with BALL ammo, where the 10mm is 1.2500"- 1.2600"
However different bullet designs do require shorter COAL's because if the tipping angle.
The lucky gunner had a better article. http://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/10mm-auto-the-once-and-future-king/
I don't think it's anything of note that the gun that was designed for the .45 ACP cartridge has not problem with it whereas the gun that was adapted for the 10mm has problems with it. The 1911 had almost an 80 year head start on working well with the .45 ACP and the 10mm Auto has been around for not even half as long. That being said: I know there will always be those who favor the 1911 or the .45 above all else, come hell or high water, much the same there are those who will support the 10mm Auto until their dying breath so that much I don't have a problem with (to each their own, as it were). However, I think Shadow has a legitimate gripe with American Rifleman having a relatively lackluster opinion of the 10mm Auto in an article that is supposed to be devoted to all things 10mm Auto. Having an opinion about something is great, but to be a source of in-depth, well researched, and trusted information on something means (to me) that your opinion should, at the very least, be slightly more well-rounded than the one in the article mentioned. I don't know if it says anything about the magazine or it's editor or the staff as a whole or if it was merely written as a thinly veiled advertisement or anything but I think some of us can agree that it definitely contained a certain amount of "fluff" that just didn't pass the sniff-test. I agree that any and all press for the 10mm Auto is a welcome addition but I just wish it was a little more fair to all the players in the game is all. Shadow, do you agree?
Have to say, I am an unabashed 1911 fanboy. Own 6 of them, and 3 are in 45ACP. One of the others is the gun that turned me on to 10mm. I doubt if I am alone there. Let's look at some facts though, the 1911 style firearm is one, if not the, most prolific designs in this country and 45ACP is the number one chambering for that design for 100+ years. If we had been left with only the S&W as the only 10mm platform in the 80s, I fear that the 10mm would be a thing of the past.
Are there different platforms out there now, just as good or even better? Yep. Would the rest of the American shooting culture be able to as readily identify with them? Nope. The 1911 is, for better or worse, America's semi-auto pistol, just like the Colt Peacemaker is America's revolver. Is it a pain in the toches( yeah I'm bringing back) that other great 10mm guns may get lost in the hype? Definitely.
I will say this though, the 1911 brought me to the 10mm and the 10mm brought me to all the others. That is not really a bad thing.
The RIA was my first 10mm as well. I am not bashing 1911s. I just think other pistols are more reliable. Thats the thing about guns. Two of the same make & model. One runs perfect and the other doesn't.
The 1911 was designed in a different time, with different manufacturing standards. It can be plenty reliable, but that is expensive (pay others) and/or time consuming (learn to run files yourself) to accomplish.
I personally LOVE the 1911, but am not going to say it doesnt have it's shortcomings. It is not for everyone. In fact, mine has ridden the safe since Shadow posted the link to the Vickers video as I have been running the Witness. Today, Glock 29. Not sure when it will get rotated back to the front of the dance line.
With regard to the article, it was reasonably well written, but did lack diversity in the test offerings of both ammo and guns. I was also sade not to see mention of the Sig P220 10mm. I wanted to give the author the benefit of the doubt that maybe the article was written before the P220 was announced, but then he mentioned the Sig 10mm ammo. Both announcements were together.
As to whether the 1911 is being rammed down our throats, or whether these gun rags are just pandering to what the typical reader wants, I can't say. Certainly there is a more lucrative aftermarket moneypile for skilled 1911 smiths than for Glock smiths. That may indeed play into it.
Centimeter writes;
QuoteShadow, do you agree?
Yes, it is why I wrote this post.
I don't dislike the 1911's, it is a fine design and pistol. Is Colt Delta Elite, Double Eagle or Gold Cup, perfect, NO! There is room for improvements. This was clearly evident with Clark/Para/Lissner/Wilson and Nowlin barrels. There are many other patterned from the 1911 style and the S&W 10xx series 3rd Generations are a testament to the improvements and variations that could be made although they were designed primarily for law enforcement. Things like slide mounted decockers of the 1006/1066 & frame mounted decockers of the 1026/1076 and the Double Action Only 1046/1086, they also held 9+1 cartridges. The ramped barrel design with better chamber support for the higher pressure cartridges like the 10mm. In the world of the Glock, they are simplistic, using far fewer parts in the design, while having safety built in and the use of polymers for the frames to lessen weight and also increase cartridge capacity at reasonable prices. Such as the 10+1 for the G-29 and 15+1 for the G-20. The EAA's are another example of pistols with variations of single action-double action, barrel lengths and capacities to bring about other shooter disciplines.
It is the constant rubbing the 1911/45ACP in peoples' faces, like it is the only pistol/cartridge that ever existed that bugs me.
Now go back and think about the 45ACP history, it was too slow, so various people develop 45 Super, 45 Winchester Magnum, 38-45, 40 Super, 45GAP and 460 Rowland all seeking a little something more than the original 45ACP offering.
Along came the 10mm Auto to take its place, as a ballistically capable cartridge, to try and satisfy the what was lacking. It is a very capable cartridge, from mild to wild, of doing what is needed from the semi auto platform. The bullet designs are somewhat of a hinderance, as they are geared more to the 40S&W performance these days. When pushed to true 10mm performance levels we see some broken up projectiles. However quality projectiles do exist and when paired with good loading they perform extremely well to satisfy the demand of the 10mm shooters.
Many of you know that I also have the 9x25 conversions, this was just an interesting design that I admired and being a handloader wanted to play with. Brass for the 40S&W and 357SIG were plentiful so I began harvesting those cartridge casings, enough so that it was only logical to have conversion barrels for them as well. These conversions provided me with a flexibility to enjoy them as well from from the same pistol, same sight picture and trigger feel.
So in closing, don't mind me. I am probably just getting older and spend too much time reading about my passion and less time being able to get out in the field to hunt and shoot like I used too! :-[
Quote from: The_Shadow on June 23 2015 09:52:38 AM MDT
It is the constant rubbing the 1911/45ACP in peoples' faces, like it is the only pistol/cartridge that ever existed that bugs me.
Hear, hear!
Quote from: The_Shadow on June 20 2015 03:19:34 PM MDT
I'd venture to say there are more Glocks being used in the 10mm offering because of price and availability * * *
Not to mention, that Glock owns the 10mm with respect to the factors of
reliability AND magazine capacity. The Tanfoglio 10mms compete on mag capacity, but not necessarily in reliability.
Quote from: agtman on June 24 2015 02:45:32 PM MDT
Quote from: The_Shadow on June 20 2015 03:19:34 PM MDT
I'd venture to say there are more Glocks being used in the 10mm offering because of price and availability * * *
Not to mention, that Glock owns the 10mm with respect to the factors of reliability AND magazine capacity.
The Tanfoglio 10mms compete on mag capacity, but not necessarily in reliability.
Bad news if your a Glock fan. The full size Tanfoglio with K10 mags is absolutely and utterly reliable with absolutely any ammo without reservation. I cannot say the same about the G20 I own. Sure, I can make or choose ammo that is reliable, but I can also make or buy ammo that is NOT reliable also. The Tanfoglio will also handle loads that would blow the magazine out of the glock and leave it in need a frame to boot.
I have both and the ONLY things the Glock has over my Limited Pro is weight (lighter) and I would be able to drop the Glock in a sand box and I think I'd be able to get it running in short order and the tight tolerances of the Tanfoglio would require dis-assembly to clean it up.
Greg
One thing to keep in mind, EAA is notorious in the Publishing world for NOT providing a gun for testing. I was disappointed they did not include a Glock in the testing, possibly not even attampting to get one, or, because they had been provided several 'other' caliber Glocks, were refused a 10mm.
Quote from: The_Shadow on June 20 2015 04:28:21 PM MDT
...
If you want to see something, pick up any gun magazine and count the times that 1911 and 45ACP are displayed or mentioned. It is like they are the only combination that exist. Every gun maker has their own 1911, after all the CNC info was public at one time.
Between around 2001 and 2010, I tossed every issue of American Rifleman in the garbage without reading it because I became so sick of seeing 1911's and AR-15's displayed on the cover every month. I had a 5 year subscription to Guns&Ammo, and that magazine ended up in the trash as well.
.
I agree I am a 1911 fan but I am also tired of seeing them and ARs on every cover.
Same reason I don't buy Car Craft and Hot Rod anymore too many Camaros and Chevelles.
Quote from: Wolfie on June 26 2015 09:29:56 AM MDT
I agree I am a 1911 fan but I am also tired of seeing them and ARs on every cover.
Same reason I don't buy Car Craft and Hot Rod anymore too many Camaros and Chevelles.
I sometimes make a mental wager with myself whether there will be a 1911 or an AR-15 on the cover when I walk by the magazine rack and see magazines like American Rifleman or Guns and Ammo... Sadly I almost always win because there's usually some combination of one or both of them, if not at the very least a mention of them somewhere on the cover. I get that they sell a bunch of them and that they're apparently über-popular but I'd think at some point they wouldn't constantly need so much advertisement. Like, seriously, are there people out there in the gun world that don't know or haven't heard about 1911s or AR-15s yet? The same is true of Camaros and Mustangs; pretty much everyone knows those things exist. We don't need to constantly be reminded that those are cars that are available.
Quote from: sqlbullet on June 23 2015 09:37:16 AM MDT
The 1911 was designed in a different time, with different manufacturing standards. It can be plenty reliable, but that is expensive (pay others) and/or time consuming (learn to run files yourself) to accomplish.
I personally LOVE the 1911, but am not going to say it doesnt have it's shortcomings. It is not for everyone.
It is like an old motorcycle or car. There are better ones made today, but there is something special about driving/riding a piece of machinery that was made 50+ years ago.
I like that comparison to engines.
Can you imagine a engine from a Ford Model T with just a bit of tuning being a serious competitor in the world of racing. Or even a common choice for the morning commute?
I suppose you could argue that the V8 is a more apt comparison since Cadillac put one in a car in 1914. But for it to be a fair comparison, you would still have to see a huge number of V8 engines using that same Type 51 block with its hugely under-square 3.125" bore and 5.125 stroke. It is really rare to see any V8 engines that are even square these days, except for the Ford Powerstroke diesels.
Part of me hopes (selfishly) the 10mm doesn't get too popular, as I feel I have found the near perfect balance of power and functionality. I kind of like keeping it a semi-secret or misunderstood.
Yes, ammo is expensive but without sounding too brash, if you can't afford a few more dollars for expensive ammo, buy a cheaper caliber or find another sport.
Pat
Quote from: 4949shooter on June 20 2015 06:27:15 PM MDT
There are a lot of 1911 fanatics out there. My shooting partner lives and breathes 1911. And everything he owns is in 45 ACP. He talks a big talk about getting a 1911 in 10mm, but hasn't pulled the trigger and probably never will.
It's a feedback loop. The gun rags write about 1911s, which fuels interest, which drives sales, which encourages manufacturers, who pay for advertising, which requires gun rags to write about 1911s...
The gun rags have never been interested in disseminating real information. The primary goal has always been to sell ad revenue and the secondary goal is to pander to the majority and not upset their closely held beliefs. This has propped up the image of the .45 ACP as a "man stopper" because the rags are unwilling to discuss the realities of terminal ballistics. The problem is so bad that I recently found myself in a Facebook discussion with a man who earnestly believed that .45 ACP was better at stopping a person than .223/5.56mm.
As for the article, I haven't actually read it, but I was disappointed when I scanned through it and saw DT represented four times but Underwood was never mentioned. If you want to see better treatment for the 10mm and guns that are not 1911s, write them. If every member here writes them, we can expect to see some change. Keep it polite and brief and don't mention this site so as to appear as less of an organized effort.
Here is the email address: Publications@nrahq.org
I posted this on their page again today...they and other magazines are guilty as charged! :(
Well let's talk about the reason why it will never equal that of the 45 or the 9mm... It is because the gun magazines like AR and all the other magazines are being paid to advertise the 9mm and the 45's and oh yea and the 1911's like there are no other cartridges or guns available on the market.
I will say that from mild to wild the 10mm is the best performance cartridge for a semi auto platform to span target shooting, defense and hunting capabilities.
Oh BTW the 10mm guns have an advantage to swap barrels to shoot 40S&W, 357Sig and the 9x25Dillon. Lone Wolf Distributors was one of the companies to exploit these advantages of conversion barrels to bring even more flexibility to the 10mm platform.
What's wrong with a 10 mm in a 1911 platform? I don't own and would never own a Block (Glock) even if they were giving them away. As far as EAA goes I don't know anything about them other than they are ugly and pale in comparison to a 1911!
Quote from: 1911baker on July 07 2015 06:45:49 PM MDT
What's wrong with a 10 mm in a 1911 platform? I don't own and would never own a Block (Glock) even if they were giving them away. As far as EAA goes I don't know anything about them other than they are ugly and pale in comparison to a 1911!
Well, a lot of people like a double stack mag for one thing.
Quote from: 1911baker on July 07 2015 06:45:49 PM MDT
What's wrong with a 10 mm in a 1911 platform? I don't own and would never own a Block (Glock) even if they were giving them away. As far as EAA goes I don't know anything about them other than they are ugly and pale in comparison to a 1911!
I don't have a problem with the 1911 as a gun, my issue has to do with the continuous brainwashing in advertising like no other guns exist! Or the 45ACP like no other cartridges exist! It's a wonder the 9mm still exist...much less the 10mm and the guns developed to chamber the 10mm... ???
Well, maybe.....except you can get 1911's in all kinds of calibers
.45 ACP
38 Super
10mm
.460 Rowland
.400 Cor-Bon
9mm
.22 LR
And others that are kind of weird
Heck I have even seen a Colt .45 modified to shoot 7.62X25 (For what reason, I do not know)
Well, the new issue of American Handgunner came. It only has three 1911's on the cover :-)