I starting this thread with hopes Mr. Randy Shelley can add to the history as he knows it. :D
Mr. Randy Shelley mentioned in another post;
QuoteGentlemen, I built 9x25 in 1988 and built the 9x30 in 1993. I enjoy reading your posts. At some point I'll post some photos for you on here.
I understand you worked for Dillon Precision at the time. I
I hope he can elaborate on the others involved as well, like Jay Phillips and Eric Harvey who may have helped with cartridge load development or testing.
Then there were Rob Leatham, Armt Myhre and Michael Voigt who chose to shoot competition using the 9x25 cartridge.
This is a link to a video I posted, showing some of those who were in competition with it back a few years. ESPN Colt Pro Shootout 1994 http://10mm-firearms.com/wildcats/9x25dillon-back-in-the-day!/ (http://10mm-firearms.com/wildcats/9x25dillon-back-in-the-day!/)
Mr. Shelley, Please feel free to add what you can to help preserve your role with these very interesting cartridges!
Gentlemen, I'm currently at Philmont Boy Scout ranch in New Mexico. Training them to reload and shoot. I have limited cell service here. I'll get back on here when I get home. I'm am employed at Dillon Precision.
Have fun at Philmont!
I had a great time at philmont. I'll be happy to answer most questions, that are asked. I still load and shoot 9x25. I do not own a Glock in this caliber.
Randy and I have been trying to get our communications setup and we may have things worked out...
He sent me this picture; Engineer from Dillon Firing my AMT AUTO MAG 3 in 9x30 about 2 weeks ago. 147 grain XTP's moving at 2000 fps.
(https://s20.postimg.cc/epttkyta5/IMG_3607_zpspxyfl5wx.jpg)
Wow :o that movin' for the 147 grain, hope to see closeup pics of his guns soon.
Randy Shelley writes; This is the AUTO MAG 3 in 9x30. I didn't know what I was going to call it at first. Walt Jones from AMT put the serial number on the frame as 9x25 Mag.
(https://s20.postimg.cc/ke04bv5cd/IMG_3251_zpsbxlgiqws.jpg)
Randy Shelley writes; This is my 9x25 race gun. Parts are from Rob Leatham, Springfield Armory custom shop. Put together by Frank Glenn. Plating is from Robby Barkman at Robar, Nickel and NP3
(https://s20.postimg.cc/4300fk0kd/Randy_Shelley_9x25_Race_Gun_Springfield_zps9grrrkbn.jpg)
Randy Shelley writes; This is my AMT 9x25 Backup pistol. It will fire 115 grain bullets at 1350 FPS. Not bad for about 2" of barrel. Basically, a 357 that fits in the palm of your hand.
(https://s20.postimg.cc/y7oh0xdd9/Randy_Shelley_AMT_9x25_Backup_pistol_zps4stn0oye.jpg)
I took a Ruger 38-40/10mm convertible, opened up the 10mm cylinder to shoot either 10mm magnum or my rimmed version, 40 cal. magnum. Project started in 1997 still not fired yet.
(https://s20.postimg.cc/g4ve9pp8d/made_9x25_Dillon_9_X30_rimmed_40_caliber_zpsx4fbcdkp.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.cc/pcnmqf40d/Ruger_38-40_10mm_convertible_zpsfgre8vod.jpg)
These are very nice and thanks for sharing Randy! 8)
I'd like to learn more about 9x30 !
Is the only change to Automag III the barrel?
Where would I get brass and loading data?
Thanks
Erik
Erik, my AMT Auto Mag 3 is one of a kind, built for me, by AMT about 1993. They were excited to do the project. I sent the pistol, back to them, a few times. They were working with some Hollywood film makers about the possibility of using it in a film. It never came together. Original Auto Mag 3 are in 9mm Winchester Magnum, or 30 Carbine. The bolt face is smaller, and the magazines are smaller. You would have to find a gunsmith, willing to take the job on. With Amt out of business, parts can be difficult to find. High Standard, now owns what is left of AMT. They don't list many parts for this pistol. They seem to be more focused on the 22 caliber pistols. Sorry I'm not able to help you. Good luck! Randy
Too much modification for me...
Thank you for your reply!
Erik
Erik, if I was starting this project today, I would be looking at a Desert Eagle in 357 Magnum. It would be much easier to convert. Only requirements should be a reamer, to open up the chamber. And set of dies to load 9x30.
Randy I was actually thinking about the Coonan 357 Magnum semi auto as a likely candidate for conversion. http://www.coonaninc.com/ (http://www.coonaninc.com/) They are handsome pistols in the 1911 pattern. ;D
(https://s20.postimg.cc/55a6yewbx/coonan-classic.png)
Things I was thinking about...
The breech face should handle the 0.4250" of the 10mm Magnum and 9x30 cartridges.
It might be possible to load longer projectiles for 10mm and 9x25 in the cutting of the chamber throats.
357 Mag COAL is 1.5900" the 10mm Mag and 9x30 COAL 1.555 (39,48) MAXIMUM.
Therefore it may be a simple re-reaming the chamber of a barrel if it has enough meat in the chamber area.
Barrels chambered for 10mm Magnum would be very interesting in this package.
Shadow, the Coonan, might be a good choice. I know the magazine is built for a rimmed cartridge, so I wonder how it will do with a rimless cartridge?
Randy Shelley sends more pictures; Early Dillon catalog cover 1986. Left to right, Eric Harvey, Randy Shelley, Mike Dillon, Bill Murphy, Xavier Gonzales
(https://s20.postimg.cc/6kbrmufbx/Dillon_Cover_1986_zpsti0dnq2r.jpg)
And more recent; This is us now
(https://s20.postimg.cc/biza1dqul/Randy_Picture_zpslmvl2pru.jpg)
More pictures from Randy Shelley; This is a picture of me and Eric Harvey. We had a commercial loading business from 1979 to 1983. We loaded about 230 different calibers of custom Ammunition.
(https://s20.postimg.cc/dnjn2h071/Randy_Shelley_Eric_Harvey_zpsegyt7eum.jpg)
I was using CH and Stars, for my business. Mike Dillon sure changed that. Right place, at the right time, with the right product. I saw the potential, so I went to work for him. It has been good.
Xavier Gonzales and I working out some final details before releasing the the RL-1050 (1988)
(https://s20.postimg.cc/tlscsm24t/Xavier_Gonzales_Randy_Shelley_RL1050_Prototype_zpsozfgagdm.jpg)
Mr. Shelley, the 9x25 Dillon conceived by you and back in the day and was used by yourself, Arnt Myhre, Rob Leatham, Jay Phillips and others. As I recall you all were working to a specific power factor for those matches.
Arnt Myhre's 9x25 2011 Race Gun. Springfield Armory and STI parts. I believe they only built 4 of these for team Springfield Armory.
(https://s20.postimg.cc/xi5ooluu5/Arnt_Myhres_9x25_2011_Race_Gun_2_zpsroojotuq.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.cc/k18q5qs8d/Arnt_Myhres_9x25_2011_Race_Gun_zpsfyxea9nj.jpg)
Correct me if I am wrong...The 9x25's as driven with the heavy charges of slower powders like Winchester 296 / Hodgdon 110 to generate enough gas volume to work the compensators on the Race Guns of the period. This extra gas volume blasted out of the compensators to push the muzzle down to eliminate muzzle rise. In some instance it was said that it would even cause the muzzle to dip because the 9x25 cartridge worked so well.
Questions... ???
Did anyone compete with the guns chambered for 10mm cartridges?
Shadow, I have never shot competition, in my life. Yes, I shoot a lot, but not competition. I bought a Bo Clerke 38/45 conversion to go in my 1911, from a friend of mine. I was impressed with how well it performed. Working at Dillon, and the guys, trying to meet major power factor with 38 super, were complaining that our dies were not good. Well the problem was, they were overloading the 38 super, and blowing the web completely out at the base of the case. Much like .40 cal Glock fired brass does today. I decided that 10mm was the perfect case to neck down, because, the brass was originally designed to handle 44,000 psi. We ordered a 38 super barrel to fit Eric Harvey's 1911. I had Xavier Gonzales, draw my design to send to JGS for reamers to be made. I built the prototype on a WW2 1911. It actually worked using the 45 ACP magazine, and no change to the slide face, other than a new extractor. Then I proved it worked. All of this happened in 1987 to 1988. In 1992 or 1993 Nyle Leatham, came back from the world shoot in Australia, he handed me a cartridge very similar to mine. I believe it was called 9mm super G. I reached in my desk drawer at work and pulled out my cartridge, and told him, I built my version several years ago. He told me Rob wanted to experiment with it, so I handed him the reamers, for Rob to take back to Springfield Armory. Rob Leatham is the one who took the cartridge, to the next level.
So this must be Xavier Gonzales' work as sent to JGS...and the machine coordinates as shown.
(https://s20.postimg.cc/h75ksb5hp/9_X25_cartridge_specifications_zpsa0oizfwh.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.cc/gue6m4uxp/9_X25_chamber_specifications_zpsrrhaqhs8.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.cc/l3iwob5wt/9x25_Reamer_Spec_zpsezm8yrql.jpg)
By the way these were part of a package I received from a GlockTalk forum member named Fred Ross, he was kind enough to share these copies. In that package is some load data notes labeled as being Randy Shelley.
Do they look familiar to you? After talking with Randy these loading notes may have been testing by TCCI (Thunderbird Cartridge Company Inc. in Phoenix) as faxed to Dillon. He writes;
QuoteI went there with loads to test, but the equipment was not working correctly.
Page 1
(https://s20.postimg.cc/5i1l4d1ob/Randy_Shelley_loading_notes_1_zpsv3s7d4iq.jpg)
Page 2
(https://s20.postimg.cc/xux2utv4b/Randy_Shelley_loading_notes_2_zpsufc3w3xh.jpg)
Shadow, the drawings, look like the real thing. The loading data, is not my hand writing, so my guess, is Jay Phillips is the one who supplied this info. He was the person, experimenting and loading for Rob Leatham, at the timeline I see listed.
Shadow, I just watched that Colt pro shooting event you posted. I had never viewed it before. Great stuff. The questions you asked earlier are correct. 9x25 does prefer slower burning propellants to maximize the compensator. Rob, ended up putting side holes in the compensator to keep the muzzle from going down too far. They ended up using Winchester 296, and Hodgdon H110 for most loads. They were also experimenting, with Hodgdon H108, which is a surplus, 30 carbine powder. Arnt gave me some to try but I have not used it yet.
I have heard of the Hodgdon H-108 said to be the same as Winchester WC820 before some guys were trying it in the 10mm. I think the older AA#9 I had which was 100% microbeads may have been H-108/WC820.
WC820 was one of the main components (80% to 90%) in the blends of Accurate Arms #9 powder.
No 9 Blend (IMI No7 20%, WC 820 80% - 118/92)
No 9 Blend (WC 820 90%, WC 350 10% - 106/94)
I posted several pictures of AA#9 powder variants in the post of this link.
http://10mm-firearms.com/reloading-10mm-ammo/accurate-9/ (http://10mm-firearms.com/reloading-10mm-ammo/accurate-9/)
Data from; http://www.ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/search.php?resultPageSize=50&resultPage=1 (http://www.ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/search.php?resultPageSize=50&resultPage=1)
Nice having you aboard, sir! The foregoing information is most illuminating!
Thank you!
Great thread. Thanks for bringing it back up!!
What a great and historically important thread about a 10mm-derivative cartridge! - the 9x25 Dillon!
Thanks to Shadow & Randy Shelley for providing this information.
My current interest lies in seeing a revival of the 10mm Magnum, but in revolver form. Randy mention this cartridge above in relation to the reaming out of a 38-40 cylinder of a Ruger Blackhawk.
I'd like to see Ruger chamber the 10mm Magnum in a standard (DA) Redhawk, offering it in a 7" "hunting" model & a 4.2" carry model, with the cylinders made compatible with the same 10mm moon clips the Smith 610 revolvers used.
You'd have one revolver that could fire three different cartridges, (.40/10mm AUTO/10mmMag) all using moon clips.
Having researched the 10mm Mag quite a bit, you got some really impressive fps/fpe specs that tread into .44 Mag territory - except all the data I've seen was generated from AMT's 10mm Mag autoloader, which is handicapped by the COAL necessary to cycle the gun reliably.
That's not an issue in a wheelgun, so you could do some interesting experimentation with long-loading the bullets out a bit beyond the 1.555 COAL restriction for chambering in the AMT semi-auto.
Reeder custom guns was doing these a while back...Skorpion
(https://s20.postimg.cc/qsz58zerh/10_MMMag2.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.cc/nkunvlcyj/sk-1.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.cc/ke04bz08d/skorp-3.jpg)
Shadow: thanks for those pics.
But what were the Ruger base guns that Reeder used for the conversion?
That one in the bottom pic looks like a GP-100 (?).
Both are GP-100
http://www.reedercustomguns.com/revolvers/skorpion.htm
Good to know! Thanks! 8)
This seems like a good place to learn from. Am I making a mistake converting my Glock 29 to 9x25 for my EDC.
Awesome reading,
THANK YOU so much for sharing!!
CW
Quote from: Randy Shelley on June 14 2015 02:59:08 PM MDT
Erik, if I was starting this project today, I would be looking at a Desert Eagle in 357 Magnum. It would be much easier to convert. Only requirements should be a reamer, to open up the chamber. And set of dies to load 9x30.
Is there a place with more information on the 9x30? Converting a Desert Eagle to shoot that cartridge would be incredible!
Quote from: Overkill338 on May 09 2017 12:49:14 PM MDT
This seems like a good place to learn from. Am I making a mistake converting my Glock 29 to 9x25 for my EDC.
I don't see why it is, I have the same. Same power factor of the 10mm 180 but lighter for carry. It also match the power of the 357mag from Buffalo Bore and also shoot the same bullet.
Scarlett Pistol, you would likely need t do careful work ups to see where you will be. It would be my suggestion that powders like LongShot, Lil'Gun, W296/H110 and AA#9 would be on par with the 9X30.
If you are to work with the Desert Eagle there is a port that allows the gas to cycle the slide/bolt for function. They require slower burning powders that produce a lot of gas to work the action.
Quote from: The_Shadow on October 29 2017 07:09:45 PM MDT
Scarlett Pistol, you would likely need t do careful work ups to see where you will be. It would be my suggestion that powders like LongShot, Lil'Gun, W296/H110 and AA#9 would be on par with the 9X30.
If you are to work with the Desert Eagle there is a port that allows the gas to cycle the slide/bolt for function. They require slower burning powders that produce a lot of gas to work the action.
Thank you! This goes on my bucket list for the next 5 years. First things first will be getting a 9x25 barrel for my Witness Hunter!
This used to be pinned at the top of the Wildcat section...