OK, This is something I have thought about for some time now. I had a short action Winchester long ago. Nice shooter but plain jane.. Sold it. I bought a Mini Mauser, in a STUPID DUMB ASS moment...sold it too. :-[ :-[ :-[ I have had AR's, semi's in general are not my first choice. I like the looks and feel of the Ares SCR rifle as well... to throw in a wild card.
I need some help to decide between a couple guns here. My top choices are, a CZ 527, Ruger Predator, Mossberg MVP or Aries SCR.
First off what I must have:
1) Accurate (Of coarse this is #!)
2) Shorter OAL. 16" OK 18.5" ideal, 20" OK, 22" Is too long
3) 223/5.56 caliber
4) Removable magazine gun
5) Composite stock
6) Be a proven quality Bolt gun
Things I would like to have:
1) AR mags would be nice
2) Threaded barrel would be nice
3) Lighter weight better.
4) Larger dia barrel.
I have shot all the above listed rifles but the SCR and for a number of reasons I like each of them.
I would say my least favorite is the Mossberg. Mostly because its overweight at 8#+ :o BUT with a AR mag, its the best magazine choice. Nice Bbl length and profile too.
I have a Ruger ranch in 300BO and its THE most accurate Ruger I have ever owned. I also have 6 mags that would also work in the Predator in 223. Great weight and accuracy potential is there too.
The CZ is just a quality piece. Its looks need to "grow" on you and I have passed this short fall. ESPECIALLY if or once you shoot one. I have actual had the pleasure to have shot six different 527's in two calibers. Each has been a 1" HONEST 1" shooter at 100 yards. Its a mini Mauser action, one that's near and dear to my heart.
The SCR is VERY comfortable and a GREAT pointer. Mods are plentiful as its a AR with a different butt. AR mags.. duhh :) Light and great handling.
I'm limited to 10 round mags here. >:( :-[ :-[ But things change and so do locations. :) AR mags are not expensive. Ruger mages although in $$ are not high quality being that they are all plastic is not so great. The CZ is double the magazine cost at 50-60$ ea.
Costs, well the Ruger will be least expensive at $400 the MVP about $125 more and the CZ and SCR a bit more still. SCR highest cost at $800+.
I can stroll right into my dealer and buy the MVP now... same for the SCR. But the Predator will take a lil searching and the CZ might require gun broker.
What say you?
CW
Buds had the cz for about 560 a few weeks ago, thats over $100 less than the one i had in 762x39. I have handled all of the above and none compare to the cz. I had to wipe drool off of mine several times, everybody who saw it said thats a sexy rifle.
You might want to check out the Ruger Ranch in .223
It is the American Predator with a threaded 16.25inch bull barrel. Well balanced and very accurate for the money.
Quote from: Pinsnscrews on May 10 2015 01:45:17 PM MDT
You might want to check out the Ruger Ranch in .223
It is the American Predator with a threaded 16.25inch bull barrel. Well balanced and very accurate for the money.
I have one in 300 Black.. ;D ;D
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/Temp%20stuff/sporting%20pics/300%20BLACK%20OUT/868C91AE-1544-4D22-BA71-5B47FBDF618B_zpsg8hhfmtc.jpg)
QuoteI have a Ruger ranch in 300BO and its THE most accurate Ruger I have ever owned. I also have 6 mags that would also work in the Predator in 223. Great weight and accuracy potential is there too.
I prefer a lil longer bbl for this caliber. ;)
CW
Savage
Worked up some loads for younger brother that Savage was the most accurate little .223 I have ever shot they have models you are looking for. The accutrigger is fantastic.
I looked at two rifles today.
Savage 25, walking varmint in 223. & a Ruger American Compact all weather 223.
I like them both. Like the Savage allot. Leaning to the Ruger at nearly 200$ less....
CW
If you want a cheap but workable one try out a savage axis.. It is quite easy to fix the trigger weight and stiffness. Mine was under $300 out the door at china mart with 200 rounds of 223
I looked at a Axis... its long (Action), heavy and felt "klunky"...
I also looked a another Savage and I DID like this one. It was a M25 Walking Varminter. Its almost everything I want...only at 600$! Its only a 4round mag and that's all poly. Not a deal killer, but...
I also looked at a Remington American All-weather. I had not considered the advantages of a stainless rifle... its a good addition! ;)
Now BOTH of these rifles have long barrels, easily pruned and re-crowned. Threading, is another addition. I was just reading up on these two and found the Ruger is also offered in a Compact version. ;)
Now I really like the Savage, but a stainless Ruger at almost 200 less costs....
CW
I can tell you after shooting the Savage the money will be no object......yes they are that good.
Remember; the .223 will run thru a 5.56 chamber, but the 5.56 will not run in a .223 chamber
Quote from: DenStinett on May 20 2015 08:27:41 PM MDT
Remember; the .223 will run thru a 5.56 chamber, but the 5.56 will not run in a .223 chamber
It will run in most, but some guns probably wont like it. My savage does not like 556 at all, no pressure sign but point of aim was off a good bit. I know the gun can handle well above 556 level pressures. If mine stays 223 the barrel is getting set back some and it will get reamed to 223 wylde (which handles both) soon. But most likely its getting a 300 blackout barrel instead.
Quote from: DenStinett on May 20 2015 08:27:41 PM MDT
Remember; the .223 will run thru a 5.56 chamber, but the 5.56 will not run in a .223 chamber
That's HOGWASH! Dimentions of the two are IDENTHCAL IN EVERY WAY.
THE SINGLE DIFFERENCE is in the was the govt measures pressure compared to all other calibers. It's measured forward of the shoulder, ( After peak pressure curve) the standard measures are in the body of the case. This results in the 5.56 is higher pressured when measured traditionally.
Problems occurs in lower quality firearms that cannot withstand these increased pressures. Different is up to 15K so it can be substantial.
There is MUCH misinformation out there.
CW
Quote from: cwlongshot on May 21 2015 05:14:50 AM MDT
There is MUCH misinformation out there.
Yes there is!
Pressure specs are the same. Proof specs are not. SAAMI/SCAPT pressure for both is 380 MPa (55,114 PSI) and CIP/EPVAT pressure rating for both is 430 MPa (62,366 PSI). Again...Both values are accepted as correct, depending only on the method of testing. However, both methods call for a proof test of 125% of the specified max, and this does result in a difference in required proof tests. The SAAMI proof test rounds are loaded to a lower pressure than the CIP rounds.
Cartridge dimensions are very close, but not quite the same. There are small differences in the r1 and r2 radius at the shoulder. Also, the 223 holds and additional .3 grains of water, due to thicker case walls on the 5.56. Drawings in the reference links below.
Chamber dimensions again are very close, but not the same. Specifically the leade in the 223 (.085") is .077" shorter than the leade in the 5.56 (.162"). It is generally accepted, although subject to some debate, that the problems with pressure are related to the leade.
Normally in the firing process there are two pressure spikes. The first occurs when pressure is building enough to overcome neck tension and bullet mass to get the bullet moving. Once that happens pressure troughs a bit, until the bullet hits the rifling, when additional energy is needed to engrave the rifling on the bullet.
The concern is getting a 5.56 round tested and certified in a 5.56 barrel/leade that has a projectile with a short ogive. That round, chambered in a 223 chamber with the shorter leade could result in the projectile resting against the rifling. This would combine the resistance of the neck tension with the resistance of rifling engraving into one force. This would raise the peak pressure on firing, potentially to dangerous levels, especially, as CW comments, in lower quality rifles. Further, it has been observed in extreme cases of short leade and short ogive that the COAL may be shortened slightly on chambering the round. This decreases case capacity which is also bad.
In a perfect storm scenario you end up with a rifle that was tested to the lower SAAMI proof spec. The chamber was the very last one cut before the reamer was retired. As a result, the chamber is at the very smallest limit of accepted dimension and the leade is also at the very shortest end of the accepted spec. You have just put a 5.56 round in the chamber with a long tangent ogive. Unknown to you this is the hottest round that could be loaded in the batch. While within absolute max spec, it will be right at the limit. And the short ogive results in a small amount of bullet set back as you cam the bolt home, and the bullet sitting right on the rifling. You now have the recipe to perform a second proof test on your gun, this time to CIP spec. Some guns don't pass.
The biggest problem is in point of fact you can run a 5.56 in a 223 chamber. It will "run" into the chamber just fine. It just may not be safe.
So, to be safe, don't run 5.56 commercial ammo in a 223 Remington chamber. If you are reloading, load away those Lake City brass. But do sort by headstamp as the 5.56 cases are 1% smaller inside on average. When switching brass from 223 to 5.56 reduce 10% and work up.
References are found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56%C3%9745mm_NATO
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.223_Remington
Also, to be clear, while SAAMI/SCAPT are interchangeable names for the same test conventions, CIP/EPVAT are not. CIP and EPVAT share a common pressure test convention, but the complete EPVAT battery of tests also validate reliability in military weapons and terminal ballistic performance. Those differences are not relevant to a pressure discussion and can be disregarded.
Well I'll say that the differences you mention in shoulder are not worth mentioning... But at this stage of my life you would think I was smart enough not to speak in finites or absolutes. As there is almost always accept ions. :o
The differences between mil brass and commercial is old hat/common knowledge to most loaders. Again yes less volume from thicker brass. It is more because military IS 5.56...
Leade, yes there is a slight difference here too. But that's the chamber not the cartridge. Not it IS what the 5.56 was designed for.
Yes agreed now and above. The really only difference is PRESSURES. THE 556 will usually run higher. As you mention. With some firearms dangerously higher. This is partially because of where peak pressure is "read" neck shoulder that isn't conventional sammi. Or case that is.
Again agreed, safe than sorry. Only chamber a gun for cartridge on its barrel. Unless your knowledgable enough to know the how's and whys of the differences.
CW
CW...just to be clear, I wasn't disagreeing with you. I just wanted to elaborate in case someone under-informed or wrong informed stumbles on the thread.
Quote from: sqlbullet on May 23 2015 02:44:54 PM MDT
CW...just to be clear, I wasn't disagreeing with you. I just wanted to elaborate in case someone under-informed or wrong informed stumbles on the thread.
Roger Copy. Kudos. ;D :D
CW
Today, I again put all three in my hands... first the Ruger and the Savage and the Savage simply feels better... Its stock is a bit long, but otherwise its my favorite... then to another shop where they have some MVP's the Patrol and the Predator as well as Hornet's in the M25. well I have to say while the M25 still feels best, the MVP is growing on me as side by side I like it more each time I handle it and while its bolt doesn't compare to either the Ruger's fat bolt small lug or the Savage better support and three lugs, its not really much if at all worse then any in its class.
Talking with sales in both stores and none have returned for repair and neither has seen anyone looking to sell or get traded in.
I need to see if I can but the syn stock from Mossberg separately... I like lams but its added weight and not quite as durability is still a neg to me.
BOTH stores had 10rnd mags form 12 - 19$ the Savage and Rugers are each 30$+.
If I bought today... I would have bought the Mossberg.
CW
I think I have pretty much decided on this model... The twist is what I like.. I was concerned with the CZ and 1:12. ;)
Today I caught up on some recorded shows... 3hree hours of Dead dog walking in particular and watching the use of the MVP pretty much did it. ;D ;D ;D That's and the 12$ mag costs. ;)
Most guys will never even make use of these faster twist rates. But I like a 60-65G slug and the excellent 65g Sierra in particular. The Hornady 60g HP has always been a favorite in my 22-250 of years ago. My top 223 load is 322 powder and a 53g Sierra match sparked with a BR4 primer. Hope it shoots well in the mossy. I have a H&R SS that is a pin driver with 2015 powder and a 52g HP. So I have a few of those loaded too.
I will try my best to hold off on the purchase till after VK first week of June... If I can hold off. :) :eek::D::D:
Watch for the pics. ;)
CW
Why not a Remington 700? There are lots of chassis systems and all kinds of fun things for that rifle.
Quote from: sstewart on May 26 2015 07:30:28 AM MDT
Why not a Remington 700? There are lots of chassis systems and all kinds of fun things for that rifle.
Well, as I said I would buy a old one in a NY Minute. New ones, I would not take as a gift. Its much too costly to convers a blind or hinged magazine to a removable... I could buy a second Mossberg and have change for coffee!
Simple English, they have become crap. The really sorry thing is they did it to them selves and thought the public would never know. H&R is gone, Marlin also turned to crap for the same reasons. Freedom group is not about guns, they are a for profit company. We all would like a company that makes us rich. I for one would NOT want that taking advantage of anyone by producing second rate, sub quality products. They are NOT a quality product company.
CW
Quote from: cwlongshot on May 21 2015 05:14:50 AM MDT
Quote from: DenStinett on May 20 2015 08:27:41 PM MDT
Remember; the .223 will run thru a 5.56 chamber, but the 5.56 will not run in a .223 chamber
That's HOGWASH! Dimentions of the two are IDENTHCAL IN EVERY WAY.
THE SINGLE DIFFERENCE is in the was the govt measures pressure compared to all other calibers. It's measured forward of the shoulder, ( After peak pressure curve) the standard measures are in the body of the case. This results in the 5.56 is higher pressured when measured traditionally.
Problems occurs in lower quality firearms that cannot withstand these increased pressures. Different is up to 15K so it can be substantial.
There is MUCH misinformation out there.
CW
You can believe what you'd like
It's your Firearm
BUT, it isn't true that they are the same / "IDENTHCAL IN EVERY WAY" (and I'm sure you mean identical)
The NATO Round is loaded to an Overall Length of 2.26 inch
Where as the .223 is loaded to an Overall Length of 2.10 inch
My reference comes from page 541, 13th Edition, Cartridges of the World
Also:
If the Chambers ARE the same, why are there two different (CLYMER) Finish Reamers ?
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/barrel-tools/reamers/centerfire-reamers/finisher-style-reamer-fits-5-56-nato-sku184050004-17643-42596.aspx?cm_mmc=cse-_-Itwine-_-become-_-184050004-184050005-11507&gdftrk=gdfV21820_a_7c187_a_7c829_a_7c184050004_d_184050005_d_11507
Ask any reparable Gunsmith
Quote from: DenStinett on June 11 2015 09:35:50 PM MDT
Where as the .223 is loaded to an Overall Length of 2.10 inch
My reference comes from page 541, 13th Edition, Cartridges of the World
I am gonna need to see a scan of that page...Every loading manual I have lists 223 Remington as COAL of 2.26 (57.40 mm)
Here is the drawing from loaddata.com:
(http://www.loaddata.com/images/database/.223%20Remington93.gif)
The cartridges are different, but it is a minute difference in the radius of the shoulders.
As far as reamers, yes, the chambers are different. Covered in my post on the previous page.
Quote from: sqlbullet on May 21 2015 08:37:37 AM MDT
...
Cartridge dimensions are very close, but not quite the same. There are small differences in the r1 and r2 radius at the shoulder. Also, the 223 holds and additional .3 grains of water, due to thicker case walls on the 5.56. Drawings in the reference links below.
Chamber dimensions again are very close, but not the same. Specifically the leade in the 223 (.085") is .077" shorter than the leade in the 5.56 (.162"). It is generally accepted, although subject to some debate, that the problems with pressure are related to the leade.
References are found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56%C3%9745mm_NATO
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.223_Remington
...
Quote from: sqlbullet on June 11 2015 11:14:49 PM MDT
I am gonna need to see a scan of that page...
(https://i.imgur.com/7PW7HHf.jpg)
Also, watch these vids:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG5jAJx7mr4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9usnUq1iKU
The Vid he mentioned above:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iE7E7O4vTM
Test this for yourself
Mic your 5.56 Round's OAL
Take a Bolt Action, chambered in .223 and chamber the 5.56 NATO
Mic the Round again and see just how much setback the shorter throat seated the Bullet
And here is where the issue lies
The added compression of the Powder after the setback in your Bolt Action Rifle
Not sure why I bothered to get myself involved in this....I don't even shoot the Round
Guess I don't want people to get injured, not having ALL the proper information
It takes the same exact effort (barely any) to chamber and close the bolt on a 556 and a 223 in my savage... The 556 was a hotter loading than i normally shot in the gun and a 55 grain bullet. And it does not like light bullets so it was quite a bit off from my set zero.
I dont have anymore 556 or i would shoot a quick video showing it.
Wow...I have a PDF copy of the 8th Edition (1997) that has the same information.
I hate to break this to cartridges of the world 8th and 13th editions, but SAAMI official drawings don't agree with them:
http://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc_drawings/Rifle/223%20Remington.pdf
The drawing very clearly shows 2.125" as a minimum and 2.260" as a maximum.
Further, I would ask that anyone reading this thread that wonders what the actual COAL is just google that question. I can't find a single reference other than this one book that lists 2.100" as the COAL.
I also re-checked my shelf. Hornady 7th lists 2.250" for service rifle 223, and 2.260" for 223. Lee lists 2.260". Speer 13 lists one load below 2.100" at 2.060" for the 40 grain. All others are above length.
DenStinett, I am gonna say this meaning no offense. Every piece of cross reference I can find, including the official SAAMI drawings, says that the information in your scan is wrong. You also suggest a test, but admit you have no 223 rifles in which to perform the test. All my 223 guns have Wylde chambers to be compatible with both cartridges, so I can't either. But I also can't find any information that suggests anyone else is having this issue. RW's test also failed to show those results.
It sure looks to me like the information on a 2.100" COAL for 223 Remington is the information that is wrong.
Well, I still stand by the fact that there are (three) different chamberings for these cartridges
Here's a drawing showing all three (and the differences in); .223 Rem, 5.56 NATO and .223 Wylde:
(http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/attachments/f24/64500d1355172550-5-56-vs-223-223-vs-nato-vs-wylde-chambers.jpg)
It is the Chambering of the longer OAL Rounds in the shorter throated Chamber of the .223 Rem that can cause the higher pressure issues
You yourself say you have the Wylde to handle "both" Cartridges
If there's no difference, why did you bother ?
I know Wikipedia isn't the end-all be-all, but it's still an interesting read:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.223_Remington
As I said:
I don't (as of yet) shoot the round, haven't the need at this time
But you have to admit, there ARE tons of posts / articles talking about over pressure, when shooting the 5.56 NATO in Bolt Guns chambered in .223 Rem
It follows that the shorter throat of the .223 Rem is the cause
So I stand by my original post:
The .223 Rem will run (safely) in the 5.56 Chamber where the 5.56 NATO maybe unsafe in the .223
I like the Ruger American. I don't think you can beat it for the money, it'd be hard to beat for double the money. I have the compact .308 and the Predator .223. They are excellent shooting guns.
I have NEVER said there were no differences. In fact, I posted at some length about the differences.
I commented on the differences in cartridges: Water capacity and shoulder radius
I commented on the differences in chamber: The .223 has a shorter leade by .077"
I commented on the differences in pressure testing methodology between SAAMI, CIP and EPVAT
I don't know why you think I am saying there is no difference. I am saying there is.
The only point of contention I have is the assertion, based on Cartridges of the World 13th edition, that the MAX COAL for 223 Remington is 2.100". This information is wrong. And I provided a link to a SAAMI document to back up my claim.
I am aware enough of these differences that I always buy 223 Wylde when I have a choice.
And finally, regarding this statement:
Quote from: DenStinett on June 13 2015 11:42:41 PM MDT
So I stand by my original post:
The .223 Rem will run (safely) in the 5.56 Chamber where the 5.56 NATO maybe unsafe in the .223
Please compare to my post:
Quote from: sqlbullet on May 21 2015 08:37:37 AM MDT
So, to be safe, don't run 5.56 commercial ammo in a 223 Remington chamber.
Sure seems like we agree.
OK, one or two sentences from your post support what I've said from the beginning
But I have been pushed to show proof, after proof of my OP
I give the references and get bitch slapped each time
Guess I should have just stayed out of it
Quote from: DenStinett on June 15 2015 07:09:23 PM MDT
OK, one or two sentences from your post support what I've said from the beginning
But I have been pushed to show proof, after proof of my OP
I give the references and get bitch slapped each time
Guess I should have just stayed out of it
Sorry...This is one of those where the nuance of voice is lost in the forum. I asked to see the scan not because I didn't believe you or wanted proof, but because I don't own the book but am escalating the need for a retraction with the publisher.
It was "I'm gonna need a scan of that [so I can take it up with the publisher!]", not "I'm gonna need a scan of that [cause I think you are wrong and can't read, prove it]".
My apologies about any offense. I certainly meant none.
And, I would add, you comments have added a lot of value and worthwhile information to this thread. The chamber/reamer drawings are a great reference.
Thank you for that Sqlbullet
I have been doing some searches to find if (and when) SAAMI may have adopted the 5.56 NATO dimensions to help standardize the Round
So far, I have come-up empty
I do find it interesting that in all of the UTube Vids I have watched on this, all show that (factory) .223s LOA being as much as 0.010+/- shorter
than a factory 5.56 NATO
I fight the same fight when it comes to the .308 vs. 7.62 NATO argument
I guess; anytime you take a Military Round and intagrate it into the Sporting World (or visa versa) you carry along the same issues
yeah.
One big issue in the 308 v 7.62 fight is the CUP v PSI issue. Before piezo electric transducers all CUP ratings were referred to in PSI units, although there weren't PSI. Once transducers came out and we had actual PSI readings, there were different than CUP.
But, the US Government just left PSI in the docs for 7.62...50,000 PSI. It is really 50,000 CUP, and measured rounds on transducers come in around 61,500 PSI, same as 308.
But you get a lot of guys that are certain 7.62 is 50,000 PSI and somehow magically they get 308 external ballistics with 20% less pressure.
I never updated this thread...
I found a used Mossberg MVP Predator and snatched it up... I was a lil skeptical so I hit the range the same afternoon...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/Temp%20stuff/sporting%20pics/Mosberg%20MVP%20Predator/image_zpsrqhyj90k.jpeg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/Temp%20stuff/sporting%20pics/Targets%20and%20such/image_zpsrq2wooeb.jpeg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/Temp%20stuff/sporting%20pics/Targets%20and%20such/image_zpsitmpduym.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/Temp%20stuff/sporting%20pics/Targets%20and%20such/image_zpsh6vk3g8c.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/Temp%20stuff/sporting%20pics/Mosberg%20MVP%20Predator/image_zpsa3xfczzi.jpg)
I did not need to worry and I am thrilled with my new (to me) rifle!!
CW