On my last range trip, my 10mm Kimber Eclipse was still treating me well, as far as cycling goes. But on round #4 of the fourth mag, I got a "click" instead of the anticipated "bang". I suspected a "light strike" (even though I have never had one previously with this gun). I dropped the mag, ejected the round, and was surprised to see that the primer only had a few trivial scratches on it. I then noticed that the firing pin was protruding forward of the firewall, and couldn't be moved rearward. I also THOUGHT I noticed that the rear of the firing pin appeared to be in the correct, normal rearward position, so I concluded that the firing pin had broken. I also THOUGHT that I tried pushing the rear of the firing pin forward, and that it moved a bit (more than the distance to my Series II firing-pin-block), and then stopped at some obstruction ... presumably the separated front portion of the firing pin, I thought. I closed the slide and went home. But once at home, I tried to use a small punch to push the firing pin forward (with the grip lever compressed, to deactivate the Series II safety). It seemed to push the firing pin forward normally, and it felt completely normal. I then locked the slide back, and there was nothing protruding forward of the firewall. I pushed the pin forward again, and everything looked completely normal. Apparently, some of the things I THOUGHT I saw at the range didn't actually happen (the lighting is fairly dim there). I then noticed that when I pushed the firing pin forward of the firing-pin-stop, that the firing-pin-stop was very loose. I removed the firing pin and spring, and reinserted the firing-pin-stop ... it was indeed VERY loose ... it would immediately slide downward about a quarter-inch. I've now concluded that during the cycling after the preceding shot, the firing-pin-stop must have moved down before the firing pin had retracted, and prevented the firing pin from moving fully aft. Apparently the amount of firing pin protruding forward of the firewall was not long enough to cause a slam-fire.
I've ordered a new EGW firing-pin-stop, and hopefully it will fit snuggly enough to prevent this type of problem again.
Has anyone else ever experienced (or heard of) this type of malfunction before?
Kimbers are notorious for poorly fitted firing pin stops, or ones that are not the correct size.
The FPS is an important part because it keeps (or is supposed to keep) the extractor in place by virtue of fitting snugly into the extractor's slot at its back end.
You will probably need to do some light fitting of the EGW FPS. Once finished with that, your gun will be better.
Disclaimer: not intentionally bashing Kimber, just dispassionately reporting what I have observed in my years around guns.
I was unaware of the kimber issues with poor fitting of a firing pin stop, but one that is loose could certainly cause issues.
The EGW needed a bit of file work on my guns too. Go slow, easy to remove more metal, hard to put it back on after too much is gone!
I'm prepared to do some fitting, but I won't be surprised if it just "drops in", given how loose the existing firing-pin-stop is.
I haven't decided whether to leave the bottom-rear edge completely square, or to put a very small radius on it. The gunsmith who installed my existing "flat-bottomed" fps DID put a noticeable radius on it, but I'm leaning toward leaving it square. Any opinions?
Quote from: Mike_Fontenot on April 13 2015 02:18:36 PM MDT
I'm prepared to do some fitting, but I won't be surprised if it just "drops in", given how loose the existing firing-pin-stop is.
Assume you will receive an "oversize" FPS. I hope you do. It is a good thing. It allows you to fit the part optimally to your gun.
Quote from: GunBugBit on April 13 2015 02:27:26 PM MDT
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Assume you will receive an "oversize" FPS. I hope you do. It is a good thing. It allows you to fit the part optimally to your gun.
Yeah, it's called an "oversize FPS". But my existing one is SO loose that a FPS that is "oversize" for everyone else might fit just right in mine ... we'll see ... I just hope it's not too small!
Sounds like maybe you have one of the incorrectly-sized FPS parts Kimber is known for. Chances are the FPS you ordered will indeed need some material removed to fit. Go slow, just a very few swipes with a jewelers file before re-checking the fit in the slide. The FPS is one of the faster and easier parts to hand-fit.
Quote from: GunBugBit on April 13 2015 01:55:54 PM MDT
Kimbers are notorious for poorly fitted firing pin stops, or ones that are not the correct size.
The FPS is an important part because it keeps (or is supposed to keep) the extractor in place by virtue of fitting snugly into the extractor's slot at its back end.
You will probably need to do some light fitting of the EGW FPS. Once finished with that, your gun will be better.
Disclaimer: not intentionally bashing Kimber, just dispassionately reporting what I have observed in my years around guns.
Kimber strikes again.
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Looks like I am back to considering the Delta Elite.
Quote from: GunBugBit on April 13 2015 02:37:48 PM MDT
Sounds like maybe you have one of the incorrectly-sized FPS parts Kimber is known for. Chances are the FPS you ordered will indeed need some material removed to fit.
Shortly after I got the gun, I had a gunsmith put in a "flat-bottomed" FPS. Both the original and the replacement are very loose.
When you have had to remove material, were you reducing the width, or the thickness, of the FPS?
On mine for my Para, both.
In fact, I think I would sell the slide if an EGW oversized dropped in.
My fps was loose but not horribly loose on my st2 the egw took a little bit of fitting most of it was for the bomar cut though. I just pretty much broke the sharp edge on the bottom of mine
Quote from: Hermit on April 13 2015 10:27:43 PM MDT
My fps was loose but not horribly loose on my st2 the egw took a little bit of fitting most of it was for the bomar cut though.
What's the "bomar cut"? Is that the area on the lower right-hand side of the FPS that is missing on the "Series 80" FPS's compared to the "Series 70" FPS's?
Quote from: Mike_Fontenot on April 13 2015 04:09:24 PM MDT
Quote from: GunBugBit on April 13 2015 02:37:48 PM MDT
Sounds like maybe you have one of the incorrectly-sized FPS parts Kimber is known for. Chances are the FPS you ordered will indeed need some material removed to fit.
Shortly after I got the gun, I had a gunsmith put in a "flat-bottomed" FPS. Both the original and the replacement are very loose.
When you have had to remove material, were you reducing the width, or the thickness, of the FPS?
I fit two FPSs and what I recall is that I only had to remove a small amount of steel on the sides of the protrusion, so the FPS would go into the space where the firing pin sits. I didn't reduce the thickness of the FPS at all.
Quote from: GunBugBit on April 14 2015 09:06:05 AM MDT
I fit two FPSs and what I recall is that I only had to remove a small amount of steel on the sides of the protrusion, so the FPS would go into the space where the firing pin sits. I didn't reduce the thickness of the FPS at all.
Thanks for that info.
Quote from: Mike_Fontenot on April 14 2015 08:39:43 AM MDT
Quote from: Hermit on April 13 2015 10:27:43 PM MDT
My fps was loose but not horribly loose on my st2 the egw took a little bit of fitting most of it was for the bomar cut though.
What's the "bomar cut"? Is that the area on the lower right-hand side of the FPS that is missing on the "Series 80" FPS's compared to the "Series 70" FPS's?
Its the dovetail cut for the rear target sights on the stainless target II I used the 70 series stop so the feeling pin stop button doesn't get stuck in the hole of the 80 stop if I have a little pressure on the grip safety when I pull the slide
Quote from: Hermit on April 14 2015 06:20:42 PM MDT
[...]
Its the dovetail cut for the rear target sights on the stainless target II. I used the 70 series stop so the feeling [firing?] pin stop button doesn't get stuck in the hole of the 80 stop if I have a little pressure on the grip safety when I pull the slide
I'm still not understanding. I think I've got the same "dovetail cut" for my rear sights also, except that I've got fixed sights (Eclipse Custom II). But I haven't been able to picture how that dovetail cut can interfere with anything. And I don't know what you mean by the "firing pin stop button", or "getting stuck in the hole of the 80 stop" if you're compressing the grip lever a little. I know that compressing the grip lever causes the small pin to rise out of the top of the frame, and press upward on the firing pin block plunger (which "unblocks" the firing pin channel), but I don't yet see how the dovetail cut is involved. (I HAVE heard that, in order to remove the firing pin block plunger and spring, you have to remove the rear sights, but fortunately I haven't had to do that, so I don't understand all those details yet.) Can you elaborate a little more?
i need to stop posting in the mornings....heres some pictures
green circle is where the 80 series stop is cut out
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To clarify, it isn't so much the dovetail cut, as the relief that is needed at the rear of the slide for the target sight assembly.
OK, I think I get it now. And my fixed sights don't have that extra cut in the very rear of the slide, aft of the dovetail cut, that the adjustable sights have.
Update: I spent most of Friday filing my new oversized, flat-bottomed FPS to fit. Before any filing, the FPS wouldn't even begin to slide into the slots. Almost all of the day, the progress was very slow ... but slowly I was able to slide it further up into the slots. Most of that time, I was just reducing the overall width. But eventually I started spending more time reducing the thickness of the edges that fit into the slots, and I think I should have done a little more of that sooner. And, even though I was well forewarned, in the last set of a few swipes, the FPS went from still not being able to go all the way in, to being a bit looser than I was hoping for. It is still much tighter than the one it's replacing, though, and I suspect it'll be fine ... it worked without any problem yesterday at the range. Since the whole part, including shipping, only cost me about $20, I may order another one, just in case this one ever has the same problem, and I need to get a still tighter fit. After a few more tries, I may actually learn how to do it pretty well!
I decided to leave the bottom essentially completely flat ... I just gave the edge a few swipes across a whetstone, to remove any tiny burrs, and smooth it a bit ... there is still no visible radius to the eye. No problems with the cycling yesterday, but I also couldn't really tell any difference in the way the gun felt when firing, or in the distance the brass was thrown. I haven't examined the primer craters yet, to see if the firing pin wipes have been reduced any.
A new update:
I decided to try again fitting another new flat-bottomed EGW FPS. One difference is that I decided early on to remove the extractor, and do the fit first without it, and then once that's done, reinsert it, and do any additional fitting necessary.
With the extractor out, I filed even more carefully than before (almost all to reduce the total width), but had the same outcome: I finally got it about half-way in, and then pushed harder than I had been pushing, and the FPS got by the "tight-point" and was then immediately too loose further in.
BUT, fortunately, I discovered what I should have discovered right at the beginning: the FPS wouldn't fit into the extractor groove at all ... the tab on the FPS was thicker than the extractor groove. So I re-inserted the extractor, and SLOWLY started reducing the thickness of that FPS tab. And at some point, I again pushed harder than I thought should be necessary, and the FPS then slid in nicely, with just the amount of tightness at the higher levels that I wanted.
I haven't test-fired it yet, but with dry-firing, the firing pin returns nicely back into the hole. I think it's fixed, but only time (and rounds fired) will tell for sure.
Mike, Good for you...anticipating the range reports! 8)
Glad it is getting there.
Two of the four I've done have been a little loose but have been functional but I think it's time to try again so I ordered two more.
UPDATE:
I went to the range this morning, and fired two mags without any problems. I'm declaring victory, unless and until my gun misbehaves in the future. Maybe I'll even be able to start ASSUMING it will work every time I fire it!