For those of you who load your own 10mm 200 gr hardcast bullet, what bullet do you recommend? I am thinking some of developing a load for woods / animal defense use. I am not too familiar with the hardcast market. The only hardcast I have ever purchased and loaded was some 158 gr semi wadcutters for my .357 mag. These I think were from hunters supply purchased from Midway. I'm thinking something with a decent width meplat that feeds reliable in my 1911.
What do you recommend and why?
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=39&products_id=331
I cast it myself from free lead. Runs great in all my guns.
I am not a huge fan of commercial cast bullets personally. Pushing lead to 1200 fps in a 5" barrel puts you right on the ragged edge plastic pressure deformation. Generally I find I have leading issues with commercial hard cast being too small/hard for at least one of my guns.
Quote from: sqlbullet on March 30 2015 09:56:34 AM MDT
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=39&products_id=331
I cast it myself from free lead. Runs great in all my guns.
I am not a huge fan of commercial cast bullets personally. Pushing lead to 1200 fps in a 5" barrel puts you right on the ragged edge plastic pressure deformation. Generally I find I have leading issues with commercial hard cast being too small/hard for at least one of my guns.
Ok that looks interesting. I don't know if I am at a point to start my own casting yet, though I am not totally against it either. Honestly, I know very very little about lead bullets in general. 99% of all the reloading I have done has been with jacketed bullets. So I have a lot to learn about lead and it's behavioral characteristics. For instance, I thought that the general rule of thumb was that the harder the bullet the less it would lead the barrel? It sounds like that is not accurate. So I'm assuming there is a fine line between too soft and too hard? I realize velocities will play a factor in this too.
I do have some questions regarding casting bullets. First question is where do you find free lead? Will any lead work? Another words, if its too soft or to hard can you add different materials to change the brinell hardness? How do you tell where you're at in regards to brinell hardness? Any publications or websites that you would recommend for learning the ropes?
http://beartoothbullets.com/
I highly recommend the Beartooth 200 gr WFN gas checked bullet. Depending on bore size, order them in .401 or .402.
Give plenty of lead time, since they don't cast them until you order them. It might take a couple of months to get them, but they are a quality bullet. I load mine with Accurate no. 9. It runs > 1200 fps in my G20. That thing is a hammer, and it is what I carry in the wilderness.
That bullet drills straight and deep. I have shot a bunch of different media with it comparing side-by-side with a 200 XTP, and the WFNGC was far, far more impressive. A contact down south shot a large feral hog with one of my hand loads, and the terminal effects were impressive! I can't think of a more effective wilderness carry load for 10mm
The only word of caution is that wide chunky meplat isn't friendly with all chambers. You might have to play with seating depths.
Dieselman,
Harder = less leading is the commonly accepted "old wives tale". It is as accurate as popping your knuckles giving you arthritis or shaving making your beard thicker and stiffer. That is to say, not accurate at all.
Most of the time leading is caused by high pressure plasma escaping what should be a seal combustion chamber through gaps between the bullet and the barrel. Lead, having a relatively low melting point compared to gilding metals, is melted by this plasma and deposits on the barrel. Harder bullets are MORE likely to do this than softer bullets. Because...softer bullets can "obturate", or bump up in diameter under the pressure, completely sealing the bore.
Fit is King
Which brings up the first lesson in bullet casting: Fit is king! My Para P16-40 barrel is .399" at it's narrowest point. So is the Schumann barrel destined for my P12-10mm. My two EAA guns are .4005" and my Glock 29 factory barrel comes in at .401". For a cast bullet to fit properly it needs to be at least .001" larger than measured, not nominal, groove diameter. I measured all mine by slugging them, or pushing a soft lead chunk through the barrel.
My EAA guns were the only ones that were ever exposed to commercial cast bullets, and they experienced some leading. Commercial cast bullets are typically .401" in diameter, as the nominal groove diameter for 10mm and 40SS&W is .400". But, my EAA guns were .4005" meaning I needed bullets sized at least .4015". Once I started casting my own I found that unsized Lee 175 gr SWC TL bullets didn't lead, but ones I sized to .401" did, except for the practice loads with Unique. I ended up honing my sizing die out so it would produce a .402" sized slug, and all was good.
Why, you might wonder, did they not lead the bore with the Unique loads that were a lower velocity. I think it is because Unique, though delivering a lower average pressure and lower velocity, delivered a higher peak pressure being a faster powder. And that pressure was enough to "bump up" the bullets to fit. I also found that mixing my lead 50/50 with pure lead (eg making the bullets softer) fixed the leading issue, which supports my hypothesis.
Speed Doesn't Matter (mostly)
I drive cast bullets almost 2000 fps from my rifles, and end the day with a shiny bore. This happens because though the bullets are going nearly twice as fast from a rifle as a pistol, they have 4X as much room to accelerate to velocity. Overall, pressure is probably a good bit lower. So, it is really about pressure, not velocity. Now, all else being equal, it takes more pressure to get more velocity, so there is a correlation there. The trick is to find ways to make all else not be equal.
The rest of the Questions
Free lead is rare. A little less rare is near free lead. As around...Hit up tire shops and radiator shops. As a hint, those guys like beer. 20 years ago a 6-pack would get you several hundred lbs of lead from the local tire shop. Now....less so.
What lead works? That is a really good question. Most scrap lead works well. Wheel weights (if they are lead...lots aren't now days and zinc ones will ruin a pot of lead) are a really nice alloy. Type metal is kinda a holy grail. Plumbing lead, roofing lead, cable sheathing lead are all good sources too.
Pure lead is very soft, and very malleable. It is really too soft for most uses as it will deform permanently under the pressure of most smokeless powders. Tin was first used to harden lead and gave us terms like 40:1, 20:1 and 16:1. This is the lead:tin ratio of the alloy. Tin is also nice because it reduces the surface tension of the lead which makes it flow really well into all the nooks and crannies of you mold, yielding really pretty bullets.
But, tin is quite expensive, and you really only need 1.5-2% (50:1) for that nice fill out. Antimony is a great hardening agent. Cheap, and it dissolves pretty well in a lead/tin allow. Antimony also adds a little something: quench and time hardening. Antimony creates a matrix in the alloy that is quite hard of it is rapidly cooled.
Take an alloy of 96% lead, 3% antimony and 1% lead. Air-cooled from the mold this alloy will result in a bullet with a brinell hardness number of about 11. Allow it to age for several weeks and it will move up to about 13-14. Quench it from the mold in water, and it will measure 22+ depending on how hot the bullet was when it hit the water (the greater the difference, the higher the initial hardness). It will age to about 22-23 bhn.
Conveniently enough, this is approximately the alloy of most clip-on wheel weights. The stick on ones have more lead and are a bit softer.
Type metals, such as linotype, monotype, foundry type, etc are highly sought after. They contain high amounts of antimony and tin, and can be used to "sweeten" soft lead. Hardball is a common alloy made by mixing linotype with pure lead 1:1. Wheel Weight uses 3 parts pure lead to 1 part linotype.
I have invested in a Lee hardness tester to test my lead alloys hardness. Though, I will admit, anymore I cast about everything from generic isotope lead which is pretty consistently 96/3/1 + just a bit of tin.
Best source for information I have found is cast bullets section of the Los Angeles Silhouette Club website: http://www.lasc.us/castbulletnotes.htm
Heckova nice post, sqlbullet! !
Yes in deed, couldn't have said it any better. But I will say I am using "OLD" wheel weights 1980's for most of my cast bullets, but for rifle I add some Linotype but I do have some pure lead for some projects as well.
My Glock 20 and 29 like the 0.4015" diameter but with plenty care not to squeeze them in the seating and crimping process.
They have been leading free using the White Label Carnauba Red lube.
Some of the 9x25Dillon loads 0.3565" are pushing 1800 fps but those are LWD and BarSto barrels so they too have bee great.
I have batches casted that I want to Poly Powder Paint soon, just need to find a toaster oven on the cheap. I will likely use the electrostatic powder paint gun for the application, although there are many other methods that can be used.
I've switched over to the coated bullets SHADOW do you have the www's for them??
AAAAAAhhhhh try this for now.
https://www.google.com/search?q=coated+lead+bullits&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb
I even coat my own ( nasty business - messy too but fun ) But I refuse to get back into casting again.
Anyway - its cheep enough to buy coated - and my experience with coated has been great - have found no upper limit on the fps for any of the 10mm coated heads yet.
Doug
Quote from: The_Shadow on March 30 2015 08:08:16 PM MDT
But I will say I am using "OLD" wheel weights 1980's for most of my cast bullets
For those who don't know....Wheel weights have gotten "softer" over the years. The alloy has less antimony and far less tin than in the "old days"
It is why I treasure my old stash...but having the supply of Linotype can sweeten the mix of pure lead or wheel weights. ;D
But I am waiting on my friend to call and say come get some more... :P
Thank you everybody for the great information
Great info! One caution I have been told is that batteries are a bad source of lead. Apparently the lead has been altered over time by the battery acid or electrical current or something. I know some guys that use high antimony solder to increase the antimony content of their alloy. I still have not got into casting but as I live in Alaska there are.lots of guys around that do.
I did get quite a lot of leading in my OEM G20 barrel shooting the Buffalo Bore 220 gr hard cast TC bullet loaded ammo that chronographed 1200 fps from my gun. Not as much leading in the Lone Wolf barrel.
Modern lead acid batteries have special lead alloys that contain combinations of chemicals that are very toxic to humans. These toxins, arsine and stibine as I recall, are readily released when the lead is melted, and can be deadly if inhaled even in small quantities. In fact, by the time you smell the rotting fish smell of the toxic vapors, you are most likely a dead man walking. Best case you will die from emphysema or lung cancer several decades early. More likely you will die of lung damage within a few weeks.
Really old batteries don't have this issue as the lead was not impregnated with calcium I think. None-the-less, given the danger of very painful short term death it just isn't worth the risk. Take the batteries to the recycler and trade them for wheel weights.
Thank you!! That's good to know!!!! :o
Around here lead is not too easy to find as there are lots of bullet casters.
Has anyone had any success with gas checked bullets in the 10mm?
Rim Rock Bullets supplies Buffalo Bore with the 220 gr TC hard cast for their ammo and sells the bullet as reloading components. But they are a bevel base. I don't have the equipment to slug my bores and was thinking perhaps gas checks might solve my leading problem. ??
all you need to slug your bore is a hammer, 3/8" dowel and a fishing weight that is bigger than .410"
Several guys on here are big fans of gas checks for 10mm rounds. The 10mm certainly operates at enough pressure that in some cases you may need one. NOE offers both plain base and gas check designs for all their .401" molds.
NOE, ok. I need to get another Chronograph. Shot my last one last fall. :'(
I regret passing up the boxes of cast and plated 10 mm bullets at Sportsman's Warehouse last time I was in town. I was unsure if plated bullets were ok in Glock or LW barrels . From what I've read on here and Glock Talk. They do great with them.
What do you use for a crimp die? Seat and crimp or separate crimp operation?
I have the RCBS 10mm Carbide die set, I have the taper crimp adjusted for a 10mm casing for proper crimp application, but I use a 1/8" die spacer ring to raise the die upward while doing the seating, so that no crimp occurs. Doing this allows the bullets to be fully seated without the casing closing against the bullet while it is moving.
Then to finish the cartridge with the proper crimp I remove the spacer, and only have to back out the seater stem to run them in that step. During this separate step, the case is squeezed back against the bullet (which is not moving) to complete the taper crimp.
Quote from: Cold Trigger Finger on April 03 2015 03:44:39 PM MDT
NOE, ok. I need to get another Chronograph. Shot my last one last fall. :'(
I regret passing up the boxes of cast and plated 10 mm bullets at Sportsman's Warehouse last time I was in town. I was unsure if plated bullets were ok in Glock or LW barrels . From what I've read on here and Glock Talk. They do great with them.
What do you use for a crimp die? Seat and crimp or separate crimp operation?
Not all plated bullets are created equally. Those with heavy copper, like Powerbonds, work well in 10mm. In fact, I prefer Powerbonds to jacketed target bullets such as Precision Delta. Powerbonds are very consistently sized, whereas PD have at times been a little undersized. My G20 doesn't group as well with a .398" bullet than it does with a 0.400. Powerbonds are right on the money with sizing.
Others, like Berry's, must be treated with kid gloves loading techniques or groups are very inconsistent. They need a generous case mouth bell, seating and crimping in separate steps, lowish velocities, crimping just to close the case mouth, and crimping in a separate step.
But whether it is Berry's or Powerbonds, or whatever, all can be made to work well in Glock barrels.
http://tjconevera.com/po4018fpplbu.html
Seating and crimping in one step can be made to work well with jacketed bullets, but most plated bullets really need to have the operations be in separate steps. I have 2 different RCBS die sets in 40 bore. Both work great. I also have 2 Lyman taper crimp dies so that I can seat in station 4 then crimp in station 5.
Shadows technique of using a washer is a good solution for keeping the crimp setting. That will save time for single stage loading, and keep things consistent. Of course, the seating stem must be reset each time, but that is much easier to do than re-setting the crimp. A dummy round can help to quickly re-set the seating depth. In the long run, I'd just grab a dedicated taper crimp die from Lyman, RCBS, or Lee. They are pretty inexpensive.
Quote from: sqlbullet on April 03 2015 01:09:20 PM MDT
all you need to slug your bore is a hammer, 3/8" dowel and a fishing weight that is bigger than .410"
Several guys on here are big fans of gas checks for 10mm rounds. The 10mm certainly operates at enough pressure that in some cases you may need one. NOE offers both plain base and gas check designs for all their .401" molds.
A REALLY easy way to do it is to start with a fired case. Put some soft scrap lead in it and melt it with a torch. I have melted fishing weights for this. Then remove the "casting" from the case with a kinetic hammer. In that way, there is a shape that is almost perfect for slugging the barrel. I use a brass squib rod to drive the casting with a dead blow mallet. The diameter is a bit larger than bore, so it is about perfect for slugging the bore.
I agree that 10mm doesn't need gas checks. It just so happens that the only lead bullet I buy happens to ship with them. That would be the Beartooth.
Great, thanks everyone.
Quote from: Taterhead on April 03 2015 10:44:14 PM MDT
Quote from: sqlbullet on April 03 2015 01:09:20 PM MDT
all you need to slug your bore is a hammer, 3/8" dowel and a fishing weight that is bigger than .410"
Several guys on here are big fans of gas checks for 10mm rounds. The 10mm certainly operates at enough pressure that in some cases you may need one. NOE offers both plain base and gas check designs for all their .401" molds.
A REALLY easy way to do it is to start with a fired case. Put some soft scrap lead in it and melt it with a torch. I have melted fishing weights for this. Then remove the "casting" from the case with a kinetic hammer. In that way, there is a shape that is almost perfect for slugging the barrel. I use a brass squib rod to drive the casting with a dead blow mallet. The diameter is a bit larger than bore, so it is about perfect for slugging the bore.
I agree that 10mm doesn't need gas checks. It just so happens that the only lead bullet I buy happens to ship with them. That would be the Beartooth.
This would work... but why not just make a casting of the chamber with Cerrosafe??
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/462291/cerrosafe-chamber-casting-alloy-1-2-lb
CW
Yea love cast slug the bore go one thousands over the bore diameter. Alloy? I use mostly is the same BNH as Lyman #2. I got in on the mould buy for the Mihec over at casboolits and cast FP all the way to 200 grain hollow points from a four cavity mould. LInotype I have 100 lbs of that 200 lbs of plumbers lead. Linotype I get form a printer shop that used to do typeset printing and has several tons of the stuff and they have been selling it cheap to me .... life is good.
Cerrosafe changes size over time, plus the hassle of plugging the barrel. As a plus if you cast the entire bore you could test for uniformity.
Of course you would have to adjust for expansion and contraction over time. Easier to me to just cast a bullet oversize by putting an edge of aluminum foils on the mold face and pound it through the barrel.
Quote from: sqlbullet on April 04 2015 07:02:55 PM MDT
Cerrosafe changes size over time, plus the hassle of plugging the barrel. As a plus if you cast the entire bore you could test for uniformity.
Of course you would have to adjust for expansion and contraction over time. Easier to me to just cast a bullet oversize by putting an edge of aluminum foils on the mold face and pound it through the barrel.
You do realize that the lead slug you suggest will only show the smallest diameter...
Yes cerrosafe will shrink slightly to allow removal then return to actual size where it will stay for plenty of time to measure and record. Why would one require it to be for ever? Simply melt and re cast.
Plugging the barrel is quick and simple. Not enough "bother" to even mention. Done it myself dozens of times...
CW
I did the method that I described just last week, and it was a < 10 minute proposition. Melt some lead into a spent case with a torch, let it cool, remove it with a kinetic hammer, hit it with a dab of gun oil, then slug away. Simple.
I have been thinking about the cerrosafe, just for giggles. I can see that it would be very useful for taking chamber dimensions of an old rifle.
Quote from: Taterhead on April 04 2015 11:23:36 PM MDT
I did the method that I described just last week, and it was a < 10 minute proposition. Melt some lead into a spent case with a torch, let it cool, remove it with a kinetic hammer, hit it with a dab of gun oil, then slug away. Simple.
I have been thinking about the cerrosafe, just for giggles. I can see that it would be very useful for taking chamber dimensions of an old rifle.
Both ways work, no doubts. Most times the bore dimensions are needed in addition to any chamber discrepancies. The Cerrosafe shows both in one step, not much longer then the ten minutes. Cerrosafe melts quick and at lo temps.
CW
You can get away with hardcast, but your barrel had better not increase in diameter towards the muzzle. For medium-heavy loads 12 bhn is enough. 44 mag was developed with 16-1 lead-tin. 10mm is moving a little slower and pressures are similar.
Quote from: bjw0007 on April 06 2015 04:58:04 PM MDT
You can get away with hardcast, but your barrel had better not increase in diameter towards the muzzle. For medium-heavy loads 12 bhn is enough. 44 mag was developed with 16-1 lead-tin. 10mm is moving a little slower and pressures are similar.
Nice first post bjw! Welcome to the forum!