If I am using a powder like AA #9, do I need a particularly heavy crimp on 10mm rounds?
I know in 44 magnum loads, a heavy crimp is needed with #9 and similar powders to allow full ignition of the powder.
Should I be giving the crimp die an extra half turn or so down?
Thanks
Tight bullet fit is need however your taper crimp should be the same for all of your 10mm ammo. The full seating of the bullet to it's proper depth without any crimp being applied should be done. Afterwards in a separate step you can apply the taper crimp, to squeeze the casing closed, back against the bullet to finish. This will provide the best bullet tension in the semi auto cases.
For the 10mm, my finished crimp measurement at the very edge of the case mouth usually measures 0.4215" to 0.4220". You should see a slight shine on the very edge of the case mouth, where the casing makes contact with the tapered portion inside of the crimp die.
Hope this helps! ;)
BTW, Yetiman welcome to the forum, hope you find it to be everything you need and then some. :D
Shadow nailed it. in a autoloading case like 10mm you aren't wanting to "roll" the case mouth like you would on a rimmed round. Just iron out the flare you put in to ease seating.
Thanks for the input. So far. i have loaded 100 rounds (all the new Starline brass I could find at first was a bag of 100 at Cabela's). The brown truck dropped a thousand more off two days ago.
I measured some of what i loaded so far and they measure .421" - .422", so I guess i am there.
I am using Dillon dies now, and have a Lee carbide FCD on the way.
i just wasn't sure how sensitive the 10mm was on crimp.
Will you be using the LEE FCD as a pass through sizer die? It works well for that operation... ::)
With all the info above, I still also use the "Push" test to see if tight enough while slowly adding taper... ( during first setup )
Make a round, measure it, then push it against the bench with some good force.... If they stay the same length after push , the taper is set well.
Quote from: The_Shadow on March 27 2015 09:02:24 PM MDT
Will you be using the LEE FCD as a pass through sizer die? It works well for that operation... ::)
Just curious... do you pass through size everything?
I only run range pick-up or "Glocked" brass in 40 S&W through my G-Rx. Never any that has run through my Tanfo Match (10mm).
I have a Lee FCD. I've never used it for pass through sizing. I assume this operation is used to remove any bulge from the case head.?. How does one do a pass through resizing? Are any modifications or special equipment needed?
Charlie_Zulu, it does help to run everything through the Pass-through die before regular sizing and depriming just to be sure and it gives another chance to visually inspect the brass. I use my LEE FCD as my pass-through die and run 10mm / 40S&W / 357Sig / 9x25Dillon after each use. This them to fully fit the cartridge case gauge and any tighter chambered barrel insuring 100% reliability with feeding and full in battery lockup. ;D
joshuamalezi, It was easy for me because I had a bullet push pin from a Lee bullet sizer kit that I use to push the brass into and up into the LEE FCD with it guts removed and positioned higher up on the press to take advantage of the top of the stroke leverage.
Here is a link to the pass through discussion http://10mm-firearms.com/reloading-10mm-ammo/pass-thru-sizing-using-lee-fcd/ (http://10mm-firearms.com/reloading-10mm-ammo/pass-thru-sizing-using-lee-fcd/)
Quote from: tommac919 on March 28 2015 06:38:17 AM MDT
With all the info above, I still also use the "Push" test to see if tight enough while slowly adding taper... ( during first setup )
Make a round, measure it, then push it against the bench with some good force.... If they stay the same length after push , the taper is set well.
This is not exactly correct. The taper crimp will have virtually no influence on bullet retention unless excessive crimp is applied to the point of ruining neck tension. Neck tension (or bullet hold) occurs with the sizing die. There's it's nothing that can be done with the taper crimp die to materially affect bullet hold except to mess it up by over doing it.
Your test of pushing the bullet against the bench is a good one. But it can be done after seating, with the flair still remaining. If tension is good-to-go, set the crimp die to just close up the flair so that it keplunks into the gage our chamber.
If there is setback, there isn't anything that can be corrected with a taper or FCD. The ID of the sizer is wrong, relative to the brass thickness; or the brass is work hardened and is springing back after passing through the sizer. Again, neither of those problems can be corrected with a crimp die for auto loading service cartridges.
Unfortunately, even manufacturers get this wrong and state that their crimp die will increase bullet hold.
To the OP's question:
As far as Accurate no. 9, it does like a high bullet pull. My best velocities and High/low velocity spreads come with squeaky clean new brass. I re-size those to bump down the ID of the cases. Clean smooth brass gives a lot of grip on the bullet. It is common for me to see high/low spreads of less than 10 for five shot strings by using this method. I really like Accurate no. 9.
Quote from: The_Shadow on March 28 2015 11:00:05 AM MDT
Charlie_Zulu, it does help to run everything through the Pass-through die before regular sizing and depriming just to be sure and it gives another chance to visually inspect the brass. I use my LEE FCD as my pass-through die and run 10mm / 40S&W / 357Sig / 9x25Dillon after each use. This them to fully fit the cartridge case gauge and any tighter chambered barrel insuring 100% reliability with feeding and full in battery lockup. ;D
joshuamalezi, It was easy for me because I had a bullet push pin from a Lee bullet sizer kit that I use to push the brass into and up into the LEE FCD with it guts removed and positioned higher up on the press to take advantage of the top of the stroke leverage.
Here is a link to the pass through discussion http://10mm-firearms.com/reloading-10mm-ammo/pass-thru-sizing-using-lee-fcd/ (http://10mm-firearms.com/reloading-10mm-ammo/pass-thru-sizing-using-lee-fcd/)
You have been a strong proponent of pass through sizing. Curious if you've had issues with resized cases not passing a gage. My experience had been that my ammo passes the gage virtually 100%. Even after max effort ammo shot with Glock barrels. The exception is when very clean brass has high friction, when going through the carbide ring, and I get some galling. I started using Hornady One Shot about a year ago, and the galling issue is gone. Highly recommend this. So much smoother in the sizer - especially with 5 cases going on the progressive. So much easier to feel the other steps that are going on when there is less drag through the sizer. Another occasional issue is work hardened case mouth that won't fully close. Those are shot in Glocks then tossed.
But I otherwise see no issue with the bottom of the case not getting sized. With the volume that I shoot sometimes, and my VERY busy schedule, pass through sizing would add a big step. Thankfully it has been a non-issue. FWIW, both of my 40 bore sizing dies are RCBS. My shellholders and shell plate are RCBS too.
taterhead nailed it on the crimp dies for taper crimp. Lee FCD is great for pass through sizingin 10mm, but not much else IMHO.
I love a FCD for my bottleneck rifle rounds with cast bullets. It really put a good roll into that crimp. But for taper, not so much.
Taterhead, I too use the RCBS 10mm dies for 10 and 40S&W and they do a great job, but as I started getting "The so called GLOCKED brass" I did see a few that did fit most chambers but did not pass the case gauge. In my Storm Lake 40S&W barrel I did have some show the slightest hold out of battery where a slight push on the slide sent them home. Also as the chamber got fouled with soot it would get worst...
The pass-through system help with everything 10mm / 40S&W / 357Sig / 9x25Dillon, this restored the brass to a better state and actually improved primer pockets and case rims as it made them uniform in roundness.
Yes it was adding an extra step, but in my opinion it was well worth the troubles. I usually sit at the table and pass through size every thing and toss in a big jug and place a piece of paper stating they were pass-through sized.
Quote from: The_Shadow on March 28 2015 06:04:09 PM MDT
Taterhead, I too use the RCBS 10mm dies for 10 and 40S&W and they do a great job, but as I started getting "The so called GLOCKED brass" I did see a few that did fit most chambers but did not pass the case gauge. In my Storm Lake 40S&W barrel I did have some show the slightest hold out of battery where a slight push on the slide sent them home. Also as the chamber got fouled with soot it would get worst...
The pass-through system help with everything 10mm / 40S&W / 357Sig / 9x25Dillon, this restored the brass to a better state and actually improved primer pockets and case rims as it made them uniform in roundness.
Yes it was adding an extra step, but in my opinion it was well worth the troubles. I usually sit at the table and pass through size every thing and toss in a big jug and place a piece of paper stating they were pass-through sized.
It is funny, since I am the kind of guy that looks for an excuse to "need" to buy a reloading tool. You might say that I have been guilty of looking for a solution to a problem I really didn't have. I, on more than one occasion, had the G-Rx die in my cart with the mouse pointer hovering above the "submit order" button. I talked myself out of it since my cases gage just fine. It sounds like you've run into issues here and there, so I can see the logic in what you're doing.
I don't know if it is a necessary step or not, but I do use the Redding GR-X die with the bottle on top and love it! Like Shadow said, it is a simple/mindless step and I can do it while listening to the nightly news. Then set the cases aside with a label on the jug...
Quote from: The_Shadow on March 27 2015 12:54:03 PM MDT
Tight bullet fit is need however your taper crimp should be the same for all of your 10mm ammo. The full seating of the bullet to it's proper depth without any crimp being applied should be done. Afterwards in a separate step you can apply the taper crimp, to squeeze the casing closed, back against the bullet to finish. This will provide the best bullet tension in the semi auto cases.
For the 10mm, my finished crimp measurement at the very edge of the case mouth usually measures 0.4215" to 0.4220". You should see a slight shine on the very edge of the case mouth, where the casing makes contact with the tapered portion inside of the crimp die.
Hope this helps! ;)
Yeah, don't use a crimper to increase neck tension. I only use it to equalize neck tension. So every round is more uniform.
Where most loaders get themselves in trouble is that they try seating and crimping in the same step like revolver rounds with a roll crimp. However with semi auto cartridges the bullet is dependant on the "case to bullet fit" for proper tension.
What happens is the bullet is being guided into the casing, with a taper crimp seating die, as the bullet is still moving down into the casing the case encounters the tapered portion of the die and starts to close inward. The edge of the casing being sharp and some bullets being soft as in cast or plated they begin to snag and this can cause several issues.
The copper plating or cast lead alloy can start to snag, shave or even roll up inside the casing as it is pushed further inside the casing.
Once the taper crimp starts to close and actually crimp to the bullet that is not at its final depth or COL, it can cause the casing to buckle and that can loosen the case to bullet tension along its entire length.
With true copper jacketed bullets, the surface is fairly hard and can resist snagging the case mouth.
When using two separate steps, you seat the bullet to its proper depth or COL with the taper crimp section raised higher (I use a 1/8" spacer ring or two different dies) With the crimp section not being engaged, the casing is less likely to snag or buckle.
Once the bullet is seated and then apply you final crimp, the bullet is not moving so the taper crimp is just squeezing the case closed against the bullet. With most of my semi auto I like to see the slightest shine at the very edge of the case mouth showing some contact of full crimp section, that aids in better feeding as the case mouth edge is tapered ever so slightly to make smother transitions from magazine to chambing.
Quote from: The_Shadow on March 29 2015 08:44:41 AM MDT
snip
When using two separate steps, you seat the bullet to its proper depth or COL with the taper crimp section raised higher (I use a 1/8" spacer ring or two different dies) With the crimp section not being engaged, the casing is less likely to snag or buckle.
snip
yes.. it's great when you do two steps and I do on my 'special' loads.
But, on some presses (like the Lee pro1k) the process is both at once and that calls for very fine adjustment to work well and pass the go-nogo gauge. With the two-in-one you look for shaving and for me does it pass the 'push test' against the bench. Then again, that's the main reason I only use the Lee pro1k for just 10mm target rounds and don't touch any settings as it took long enough to get it perfect with the plated heads.
Ps ; yes I hear the comments on the 1K already... and I agree. Its a set once and leave alone cookie cutter but works well enough for target loads...and I wouldn't buy one for a friend. ( maybe that's why the wife bought me it as a gift !/? )
Quote from: The_Shadow on March 29 2015 08:44:41 AM MDT
Where most loaders get themselves in trouble is that they try seating and crimping in the same step like revolver rounds with a roll crimp. However with semi auto cartridges the bullet is dependant on the "case to bullet fit" for proper tension.
What happens is the bullet is being guided into the casing, with a taper crimp seating die, as the bullet is still moving down into the casing the case encounters the tapered portion of the die and starts to close inward. The edge of the casing being sharp and some bullets being soft as in cast or plated they begin to snag and this can cause several issues.
The copper plating or cast lead alloy can start to snag, shave or even roll up inside the casing as it is pushed further inside the casing.
Once the taper crimp starts to close and actually crimp to the bullet that is not at its final depth or COL, it can cause the casing to buckle and that can loosen the case to bullet tension along its entire length.
With true copper jacketed bullets, the surface is fairly hard and can resist snagging the case mouth.
When using two separate steps, you seat the bullet to its proper depth or COL with the taper crimp section raised higher (I use a 1/8" spacer ring or two different dies) With the crimp section not being engaged, the casing is less likely to snag or buckle.
Once the bullet is seated and then apply you final crimp, the bullet is not moving so the taper crimp is just squeezing the case closed against the bullet. With most of my semi auto I like to see the slightest shine at the very edge of the case mouth showing some contact of full crimp section, that aids in better feeding as the case mouth edge is tapered ever so slightly to make smother transitions from magazine to chambing.
You're right, and this is a great description of what is going on. To complicate matters further, mixed brass will have differing case wall thickness and lengths. So if the crimper is set at the perfect setting for brass A, along comes brass B and the setting is no longer perfect. You kind of have to find a spot where it is "pretty close" for most cases. Add the dynamics of simultaneously seating, and then (as you stated) you have to be concerned about shaving the bullet, and (worse case) buckling the case. Plated bullets can't tolerate being engraved or shaved at all. PLUS setting a die to seat and crimp in the same step is probably the most frustrating setup for new loaders.
Combining the steps can be made to work for machines that don't have enough stations, or for single stage loading. I think the key is to bias toward less crimp, but tight match chambers might not tolerate this. It really takes some trial and error. Pulling a few bullets out of brass of different headstamps will show if the bullet is being abused. If it is, turn out the crimp die a tad. Repeat as needed. If the round kerplunks and the bullet is unscathed, AND your seating depth is right, THEN you've found the right setting.
Glocks don't care if the case mouth is a tad wide, and this can actually be a HUGE time saver if loading for Glocks with a single stage. I have loaded thousands that way, and my Glocks can't tell the difference. Frankly, 1911s and XDs didn't notice either. The after-crimp case mouth measurement will need to be about 0.422" in order to avoid shaving the bullet.
I too seat/crimp in separate steps with seating in station 4 and crimping in station 5. It is the preferred practice. But I have made thousands of rounds of good ammo by combining the steps. Shadow, I think you did a great job explaining the pitfalls of loading this ammo this way.
Thanks Taterhead! that is my intention, to educate people about what is going on as they work through their issues.
You also write
QuoteYou kind of have to find a spot where it is "pretty close" for most cases.
You are correct about the different makes of brass being thinner or thicker and even the slight differences in case lengths, all of which add to the problems. Making cartridges using the two individual steps, makes that even more forgiving.
When I doing all of the pull-downs, I try to add the measurements where the crimp actually indented the bullets if any. I was surprised just how much some were crimped inward. When taking the case mouth edge measurements, anything less than 0.4215", tend to be where I see the most indentions on the bullets. I have measured some at 0.4170" which is way heavy...and the bullets crimped in measurements 0.3940" on some. If that would be a plated bullet it would have cut through the plating.
I will also comment on the LEE FCD being used as a final crimp die can squeeze the bullets smaller in diameter as the sit in the cartridge. That can destroy accuracy. Especially cast bullets, where we want the bullet to remain at its largest diameter fit. Cast bullets at 0.4000" will lead the bore, because of the lack of bore seal and blowby gases eroding the alloy.
Just getting people to understand all of these various aspects, so they to can make better decisions and adjustments to their loading procedures is the ultimate goal! :D