I took my Kimber TLE 10mm out yesterday and ran a bunch of different loads through it. Had no problems with any of my handloads or any of my Underwood factory ammo. However, I ran five rounds of Buffalo Bore 220 gr Hard cast and popped four out of five primers. Two were completely missing and two were knocked half way out of the brass.
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/photo_1_26.JPG)
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/photo_5_33.JPG)
After seeing this, I quit firing the BB load. Be careful out there if you are shooting Buffalo Bore products.
Here is a follow up picture that I just took of a new large pistol primer that I set in the primer pocket of one of the cases that popped the primer. As you can see, it loosely dropped about 85% into the brass before stopping. I think I probably could have got it to go in further had I cleaned the soot and crap out of the primer pocket first. I probably could push it in most of the rest of the way by hand if I wanted to.
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/photo_1_59.JPG)
Can you pull a bullet, take a picture of the powder and charge weight? Anything odd going on in the barrel with leading? I still think when primers are totally missing that something is up with the pistol.
Quote from: Intercooler on March 22 2015 02:03:52 PM MDT
Can you pull a bullet, take a picture of the powder and charge weight? Anything odd going on in the barrel with leading? I still think when primers are totally missing that something is up with the pistol.
Yep, just give a few minutes and I will have that data for you.
I'm wondering if they are using the Lovex powder in this now and might be creating an issue.
Ok, charge weight is 8.4 grains.
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/photo_5_38.JPG)
Powder is very very small flattened ball podwer. Much smaller than Longshot. More the size of True Blue, but only flattened.
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/photo_1_62.JPG)
I have Chronographed this exact same box of ammo earlier this winter and four shots across the chrono with this same gun yielded : 1197 fps, 1195 fps, 1204 fps, 1198 fps. At that time I was getting some severely flattened primers, but none that had blown.
As far as my barrel goes. It looks totally fine. No lead or copper fouling. My gun has an EGW flat bottom firing pin stop and a heavier recoil spring. I shoot some pretty hot underwood loads through this gun with no issues. This buffalo bore load is the only one to ever give me problems.
I have seen some StarLine brass have loose pockets...may or may not be the issue.
Heavy charges with slower burning powders can cause the casing to be expanded tight to the chamber walls when ejection starts, primer may move as the barrel drops from lock up.
Loose primer pockets can let the primer start to push the slide and barrel out of battery.
I wonder if it is CFE or AutoComp...another could be Ramshot Silhouette but that would be pushing it at that charge weight.
These powder shortages are really showing the commercial guys are also having to deal with other products. :o
And the brass looks pretty good from what I see. Can you take a measurement up from the extractor groove? I'm starting to think what The Shadow is saying makes more sense.
Ok I am showing a measurement of .4265
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/photo_1_67.JPG)
Usually New Star Line measures 0.4215" - 0.4220" above the start of the extractor cut ;)
Quote from: The_Shadow on March 22 2015 02:58:26 PM MDT
Usually New Star Line measures 0.4215" - 0.4220" above the start of the extractor cut ;)
I have never bothered to measure my brass at the base before, so I have nothing to go by. But I assume that this amount of expansion is considered normal or ok? This Kimber has a magnificently well supported chamber.
With the good casing support along the sides the expansion could be hammering out the casehead. Star Line is a softer brass as made for the handloaders.
My guess is that the case head diameter has grown noticeably compared to an unfired case. That would indicate that the primer pockets are expanding, and that is an all-but-certain indication of a pressure problem -- unless the brass metallurgy is totally out of whack.
If there is a building up of lead in the barrel, then that might be the culprit. The bore diameter to bullet diameter relationship could also be in play. Tight bore, wide bullet with lots of bearing surface. I think the simplest answer is that there is too much powder in that case for the platform that you're shooting.
So what would be happening is that pressure is enlarging the primer pocket and loosening the hold on the primer. In the ejection cycle, the case is abruptly stopped and re-directed by the ejector. The momentum of the loose primer keeps it going in the rearward direction, and it separated from the case.
Last year it took me about two months to convince a friend that he was popping primers due to a pressure problem. He was blaming the brass, his rifle, even the colds air density... just above any other conspiracy that he could come up with from ad nauseam internet research. He's also fond of his cheep electronic powder dispenser and scale. I FINALLY convince him to pull down his ammo. Guess what he found... a 20% overcharge! Lessons learned were that cheap electronic scales are not trustworthy, calibration weights are not the same as check weights, and if it looks like a pressure problem then eliminate pressure as the issue first before going down the rabbit hole.
Yikes!
I'm showing an unfired 220 BB case as .420
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/photo_5_39.JPG)
Taterhead, it is understandable, as these companies are pushing the threshold of the max pressure range, not all firearms handle the same high pressure load the same way either. I have asked Underwood about their ammo and they swear they are inside the SAAMI pressure values, but who is testing? and what testing is being done?
Yes the bore getting fouled can really affect the pressure...good call!
When working too close to the edge, doesn't leave room for the safety of small changes!
Dieselman, that needle is just past the 20 mark ever so slightly, if that was a digital caliper you would see 0.4215", I have measured many of the cases from Starline.
What is the measurement on one of the cases with popped primers?
He showed 0.4265"
Oh, I thought that measurement was taken above the extractor. Hard to follow along on this phone.
So some growth! !
Yes that was at the extractor cut, You were looking for a case rim measurement?
Yes. Exactly. Pressure that increases the primer pocket will manifest in an enlarged diameter case rim/head diameter. The rim?head diameter will grow over time in small increments, but suspect these have noticeable enlargement. My friend's rims were too wide to fit in a gage after one firing even though the body of the case resized ok.
Measurments of other loads for comparison
#1. Remington 180 gr UMC = .421 Chronographed @ 1128 fps UMC brass
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/UMC.JPG)
#2. Underwood 180 gr Gold Dot = .4225 Chronographed @ 1345 fps Underwood brass
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/underwood.JPG)
#3. 10.9 grs Bluedot/ 180gr XTP = .423 Chronographed @ 1310 fps Armscor brass
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/bluedot.JPG)
#4. 8.4 grs 800X / 180 gr HST = .4225 Chronographed @ 1250 fps Armscor brass
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/800x.JPG)
Yes, I have used the pass through system on some brass that did pop primers and were smiled as a test. The pass through did close it back some to hold a primer but I don't recommend it!
The powder being a faster burning powder is building it pressure peak before the bullet can start to move because of it heavy weight. This is also why we see some of the faster burning powders not shown with the real heavy bullets.
Quote from: The_Shadow on March 22 2015 03:49:00 PM MDT
Yes that was at the extractor cut, You were looking for a case rim measurement?
nonfired case rim = .420
blown primer case rim = .4225 ( Taken at widest point. Case rim is out of round)
Yes, it is stretching usually vertically in relation to the feed ramp.
Thank you all for carrying on this conversation with such detail in public. It a fascinating and educational opportunity for us all.
It is educational, makes me interesting in handloading.
Would like to do 10mm & 38 Supers, saving the brass but don't want to spend too much.
That barrel is a little tight in my opinion comparing numbers I have gotten in the past.
Quote from: Intercooler on March 22 2015 06:44:50 PM MDT
That barrel is a little tight in my opinion comparing numbers I have gotten in the past.
In what regards are you referring to? Velocity numbers or something else?
On the hotter stuff I see .428 - .431when measuring the expanded brass. Your results seem really low and makes me wonder if that is forcing everything out the back. I think their must be a nice balancing point.
What could be happening is with the chamber tight, the brass is expanding rearward as the pressure exceeds the brass strength. I never really liked going above 200gr as the case capacity is diminishing for the bulky powders. In this instance it looks like they are using a faster powder. This is another reason why handloading your own allows you to develop loads with powders that are suited to the entire setup.
Quote from: The_Shadow on March 23 2015 07:50:57 AM MDT
What could be happening is with the chamber tight, the brass is expanding rearward as the pressure exceeds the brass strength. I never really liked going above 200gr as the case capacity is diminishing for the bulky powders. In this instance it looks like they are using a faster powder. This is another reason why handloading your own allows you to develop loads with powders that are suited to the entire setup.
I agree with this 100%.
I agree with this too. I have absolutely no problems with any of my reloaded 10mm. I have found what works well with my gun that gives me decent accuracy, the velocities that I wish to achieve, and no unusual signs of pressure.
The only reason I even purchased a few boxes of Remington UMC, Underwood and Buffalo Bore ammo was to give me something to fire while trying to track down all the necessary components and equipment to reload my own when I first purchased the gun.
I prefer the 180 grain projectiles the best and that's all that I have reloaded to date. The other factory stuff was just what I could find in local stores or on the net at the time of purchase. That being said, the 180 grain Gold Dots from Underwood have functioned just fine in my gun. But my personal preference is to load pulled 180 gr Federal HST's for social work or 180 gr. Hornady XTP's for woods carry or practice.
I don't even mind the factory Remington 180gr UMC stuff. It's easy on the cases which is nice for reloading. And it's something mellow enough that my Wife will shoot it. Just wish it wasn't so dog gone expensive.
Hey Shadow,
I just went and tracked down your Buffalo Bore 220 hardcast pull down thread to compare to mine. It's hard to tell from the pictures because I'm looking at it on my phone, but the powder looks to be the same. Also the charge weight is the same at 8.4 grains. What I did notice that was different is that you listed a Nickel colored primer being used, while mine has a plain brass colored primer. Possibly a difference between CCI and Winchester maybe? I know from my own testing that when switching an otherwise identical load from the CCI 300 to the Winchester LPP that the Winchester produces a lot more velocity and presumably higher pressures. Maybe this has something to do with my scenario.
This thread here shows my chrono differences between otherwise identical loads when switching between primers - http://10mm-firearms.com/reloading-10mm-ammo/federal-180-grain-hst-handloads-chronograph-results/
I had the same issue with Buffalo Bore 220's popping primers in Glock 20. I posted a thread about it last year.
I ended up handloading my own soon afterward and ended up dropping the charge to 6.4 grains of BE-86 (same powder as BB, same bullet, same brass, but with WLP primer) to get reliable feeding. The BB was popping primers and constant failures to feed with 22# Wolff spring and KKM barrel. Now I run stock spring and KKM.
I would advise to stay away from the ammo, it's clearly overpressure. My handloads for the 220 chrono low, but I have Beartooths on order. ;D Plan to push those to almost 1200fps. I would also like to say that since handloading, and staying away from DoubleTap, Underwood, and Buffalo Bore my feed issues entirely disappeared with the gun returned to stock spring and KKM barrel even with some nasty hot Power Pistol loads.
I don't think it's overpressure. Maybe something can be done to open up the barrel a little?
Dieselman,Yes it could very well be the BE-86 powder they were using. It was difficult to see in your picture. It is similar looking to Power Pistol but has whitish flakes in the mix. I have been trying to find BE-86 locally, but have not found any to work with.
radiotom, you had the same experience as Dieselman so it has to be the power is just too fast and that heavy bullet takes a gentler shove to get it moving.
radiotom, I was looking at your older thread about popping primers yesterday before I actually posted my own thread. It seems clear that we both had the same issues with two completely different guns. I agree that my best course of action is going to be to just develop my own hard cast load. Probably in the 200 gr variety.
Hey Intercooler and Shadow, what do you think about my different primer theory? Think that could have any merit?
Also to radiotom, do you remember if your bb load that was blowing primers had a nickel colored or brass colored primer in them?
Yes the change in primer could make a difference. I will also say that CCI primers do fit tighter than the Winchester. I have had CCI crush trying to get them in some brands of brass. A different primer may drop the pressure slightly and BE-86 shouldn't need a magnum primer. But to me it is a combination of things that include the primer, and fast burning powder under a very heavy bullet.
The primer and powder pressurize up so fast the bullet doesn't have a chance to start down the bore before peak pressure hammers the case head of the brass and primer. Kind of like the pop of low octane gasoline and the long steady push of burning diesel fuel.
The primers in mine were brass colored.
Quote from: radiotom on March 23 2015 05:14:17 PM MDT
The primers in mine were brass colored.
Thanks radiotom. It just leads me to believe that maybe a load was worked up by buffalo bore that may have seemed ok with the components used at the time and then due to the shortages everyone is experiencing maybe a substitution of primers was made without bothering to reduce the charge rate and safely working back up.
Regardless, I agree with what has been said here by all of you. It's too much pressure for my gun. Whether that's caused by one thing or a combination of things. I like hot 10mm as much as the next guy, but want to still have a little margin of safety for factors that a shooter might run across like temperature fluctuations and the likes. But these are just too hot.
I too agree with having a margin of safety! A few feet per second are not worth damage to the firearm or the shooter.
I would like to run run of them empties with the popped primer through my sizing die and see if a lot more effort is needed to size them.
Quote from: The_Shadow on March 22 2015 02:35:18 PM MDT
I have seen some StarLine brass have loose pockets...may or may not be the issue.
Heavy charges with slower burning powders can cause the casing to be expanded tight to the chamber walls when ejection starts, primer may move as the barrel drops from lock up.
I have some nickel plated Starline 10mm brass I got from MidwayUSA, and it has a very tight primer pocket.
I have not checked the brass I got from Earl's group buy.
.
Can you pull one of those, put the powder back in and measure the depth from Rim to top of Powder? Then determine how much length of bullet is actually seated VS the powder line?
Trying to figure out if it might be a Compressed Load.
Quote from: Pinsnscrews on March 24 2015 04:19:10 PM MDT
Can you pull one of those, put the powder back in and measure the depth from Rim to top of Powder? Then determine how much length of bullet is actually seated VS the powder line?
Trying to figure out if it might be a Compressed Load.
Yep. Have to wait until I get home tonight, to do so. Wished I had a better puller than my kinetic hammer puller. I beat that last one silly for about five minutes before I got frustrated and started wiggling it with a pair of pliers. :))
Dieselman, how are you using that kinetic puller that is causing you issues.
I smack mine against the end grain of a piece of 4" x 4" block. The key is the insert the cartridge into the chuck (it is sometimes easier to insert the cartridge in from the bottom) tighten with no slack. The blow with the puller needs to be struck like that of a dead blow hammer, firm and not let it bounce. The key is the watch the bullet trying to get it to just drop free with a light tap at the end.
Lighter bullets take more energy to get them to start moving. Take your time, deliver a firm blow with each smack to the end grain of the wooden block.
I have pulled many several thousands over the years, I am just now wearing out my chuck, but RCBS was kind enough to send me a brand new chuck. In a pinch you can actually use a shell holder upside down to hold the cartridge for pulling.
Good luck!
Using The_Shadows advice to treat my puller like a dead blow hammer and not letting it bounce has worked great. This round came apart easily.
First up is the measurement of the pulled bullet. It comes in at exactly .750
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/2355.JPG)
Next up was trying to get an accurate measurement of the distance between the powder and the case mouth. To do so I gently set a spent 7.62 Tok case inside the 10mm case and marked the side with a fine tip pen. This measurement was .5275
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/1648.JPG)
Now I measured the bullet from the bottom to the seating mark visible on the pulled bullet to come up with .480
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/3264.JPG)
To confirm that last number, I measured the amount of the bullet exposed on a non pulled round and came up with .270
So as close as I can tell. There should be .0475" of clearance between the powder and the bullet. Meaning this is not a compressed load.
Here is another picture of the powder. I have taken about ten different picture trying to get one that looks good, but my camera phone just won't have any of it. This one was about the best of the bunch
(http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/photo_2_44.JPG)
The powder is not BE-86, why do I say that? BE-86 has a flake almost exactly like Power Pistol but BE-86 has slightly larger white (almost translucent) flake in the mix.
The powder you show is a flattened ball...
Yes definitely flattened ball. Very small too. About the size of True Blue
Thaks for your excellent work up Dieselman, it was worth exploring.