Ok, the last thread I posted for back country ammo led me to try various Underwood and Double Tap FMJ and Hard Cast rounds. I've settled on the 200gr DT Hard Cast.
I tried the Underwood 165gr and 155gr Bonded GD JHP's and I liked them both a lot. The 165's I liked the best and so did my Glock 20SF especially in stock barrel and recoil spring. The 22# Wolf non captive spring with guide rod was OK. But I did have a few FTF's. That was a surprise for me especially with a Glock.
The 165's and 155's are out of stock at Underwood. In the meantime I'd like to pick up some 180 XTP's and possibly some GD 180's. Don't want to go heavier in JHP's.
What would your Underwood recommendations for self defense JHP's be?
If Underwood has 'em in stock, I'll pick up some boxes. If you prefer I wait for the 165 GD's, or another round type, I will.
Reliability is of course paramount.
Feel free to let me know your thoughts.
I find it funny you don't want to utilize the 200 Grain XTP or Nosler bullets, where you want the 200 grain FMJ or Cast bullets. I load my own cartridges and tailor them to what I need or want from them for the occasion.
The 200 grain XTP was design for the 10mm whereas the 180s catered more towards the 40S&W.
I will say that most any of the 10mm loadings would be good to go...I use many of my own cast bullets for a variety of things that I consider have just as good a chance to stop threats or put down game animals with humane stops.
Good luck with your decisions!
I carry 200 grain noslers from double tap in mine, it likes them just fine. Mostly stock gen 3 20.
Have you looked at any of the YouTube gel videos on the master sheet? Cabela's has had their Hornady 175's in there everytime I went. Nothing wrong with them for self defense.
Shadow,
I was thinking more about expansion in the 180gr and lighter rather than full on penetration. The Hard Cast is for deep penetration in back country.
I've read every thread on the self defense loads here on the forum and many elsewhere.
I value the opinions here on the forum. I'm not locked into any weight or bullet mfg'er.
It was the expansion vs penetration aspect that led me to post the 180gr maximum.
I appreciate all the info here. You folks know the 10mm.
Quote from: Intercooler on March 02 2015 05:44:10 PM MST
Have you looked at any of the YouTube gel videos on the master sheet? Cabela's has had their Hornady 175's in there everytime I went. Nothing wrong with them for self defense.
Yes... I've watched a ton of 10mm videos. I currently have The Hornady Critical 165gr FTX that was given to me in the pistol at the moment. I'm going past the local Cabelas. I'll give them a call.
You can't go wrong with an all copper as well. If Doubletap has the 125 Barnes, 155 Barnes or Buffalo Bore 155... great rounds!
I usually carry Underwood 155 grain Gold dots. That being said The 155 gr XTP would also be great. 165 grain Gold dots and 180 gr are all nice as well. Leaving the name behind I would say that Intercoolers test of Doubletap's new loads shows them to be excellent too. Federals 180 gr JSP offers a full power load that isn't a nuke. Went 16.8" in gel I believe.
In town, I don't think a full house 10mm load is optimal. I carry the 175 Win STHP. That is about 1160 fps in my G20, which is modest by 10mm standards. It is admittedly a bit of an older style bullet, but I am confident it would do the job based upon my personal unscientific testing.
I would prefer the 165 GDHP if I could find a could find a commercial load about 1300-1325 fps. My handloads of that bullet and speed have shown IMPRESSIVE results in water and wet pack. Plus function in my G20 is flawless. Firm recoil, but not excessive. I don't want to get into it here, but I prefer to carry commercial ammo for SD. So for the past few years, the Win STHPs have been in my social carry mags.
I carry a hand loaded Beartooth WFNGC 200 gr hardcast loaded to 1200+ fps.
After watching all the videos I can find of 10mm being tested and shot through different material I have made the 180 grain JHP Gold Dot loaded by Underwood. The 135, 155, and 165 grain would be fine but just not my first choice.
What are the thoughts about carrying for SD, Underwood's slightly reduced power Delta Elite 180gr JHP?
I've been looking all over for reviews of this in a Glock 20 but haven't seen more than a few comments.
Anyone tried 'em in a G20?
Appears that it would be similar to the Silvertip or Hornady in power or a little bit faster.
Quote from: Taterhead on March 02 2015 08:45:56 PM MST
In town, I don't think a full house 10mm load is optimal.
Could you possibly explain your reasoning for this? That might better help assess what type of load you should be looking for and which you shouldn't be considering, if that's your criteria. What do you consider "full house" and what do you consider "partially empty house?"
Quote from: climb14er on March 02 2015 05:51:19 PM MST
Quote from: Intercooler on March 02 2015 05:44:10 PM MST
Have you looked at any of the YouTube gel videos on the master sheet? Cabela's has had their Hornady 175's in there everytime I went. Nothing wrong with them for self defense.
Yes... I've watched a ton of 10mm videos. I currently have The Hornady Critical 165gr FTX that was given to me in the pistol at the moment. I'm going past the local Cabelas. I'll give them a call.
I like the `175 grain Critical Duty more than the 165 grain Critical Defense.
Underwood 165 grain Gold dots would be my first choice.
Quote from: climb14er on March 03 2015 10:58:06 AM MST
What are the thoughts about carrying for SD, Underwood's slightly reduced power Delta Elite 180gr JHP?
I've been looking all over for reviews of this in a Glock 20 but haven't seen more than a few comments.
Anyone tried 'em in a G20?
Appears that it would be similar to the Silvertip or Hornady in power or a little bit faster.
I would say it would be quite a bit hotter than those two loads. One downside i'll mention is that it uses Noslers in stead of Gold Dots. The only reason I'd give it gold dots is if I was shooting 200 grain. It would be a good load all the same just a little shabby that its not offered with a premium projectile.
http://www.underwoodammo.com/10mm-auto-180-grain-bonded-jacketed-hollow-point/
He has the standard velocity Gold Dots in stock. A great load for sure.
Quote from: Centimeter on March 03 2015 01:47:53 PM MST
Quote from: Taterhead on March 02 2015 08:45:56 PM MST
In town, I don't think a full house 10mm load is optimal.
Could you possibly explain your reasoning for this? That might better help assess what type of load you should be looking for and which you shouldn't be considering, if that's your criteria. What do you consider "full house" and what do you consider "partially empty house?"
I'm not sure if you're offering to give advice on choosing ammo, or if you're wondering about my reason for not pursuing max effort SD ammo. I'll try to address the latter.
The short answer: Reliability, split times, and velocities that match the design parameters of the projectiles.
Ammo like Underwood is, of course, full house (or whatever we want to call it). Many of the hand loads logged in my load journal are full house too. That type of ammo is on the very upper end of the design limits of the gun and cartridge, and is comparatively riskier from a failure standpoint. I don't want to be anywhere near the extreme end with a defensive load. I want a decent sized margin for error. Everyone assesses risk and weights it differently. Some are averse to having anything less than maximum energy on target. With so much capability in this cartridge, I am less concerned that I'll have insufficient energy, and more concerned with reliability, function, and my ability to do my part.
The 10mm gives PLENTY of energy on target, and it does not need to go full tilt to do the job. In the literally dozens unique 10mm loads that I've personally worked up, the 165 GDHP at about 1300-1325 fps seems to be about right. That is a load that I've tested pretty extensively, including IDPA matches, and might be what you referred to as, "partially empty house." :D
Taterhead, sorry about directing my earlier question towards you while keeping in mind clib14er's initial question. I didn't mean to question your choice in weight, I meant to ask why you mentioned choosing this as it related to climb14er's initial question (to get you to elaborate so that it's more clearly explained as it relates to his question).
What you're describing sounds a lot like what the FBI experienced that eventually led to the creation of the .40 S&W: the desire for slightly less velocity in projectiles with the same diameter and in similar weights. I guess my question is why do you need the loading to be in 10mm brass if you can get .40 S&W that will do almost exactly what you need? Plus, typically, the bullets that tend to be used in those .40 loads were designed to fit in the .40 S&W performance envelope, aside from some of the bigger bullets like the 200gr Gold Dots and XTPs that are better suited to hotter 10mm loadings.
All that being said: I find, for myself, that a middle-weight projectile loaded hot is the best balance of both penetration and energy. It provides sufficient penetration, usually closer to 12" than to 18" but also a massive amount of energy being dumped in that foot, typically around 750-800 ft lbs. This reduced weight reduces the likelihood of over-penetration over that of a hot, heavy, load that might tend to completely pass through a human body. On the flip side the super-light projectiles might be screaming along but they also have little in the way of penetration while also being slightly more susceptible to severe deformation when they impact (in my experience) which may or may not be desirable.
Energy dump is not a wounding mechanism in handgun rounds. Sufficient penetration is the most important. 180gr and 200gr xtp at moderate velocities are the ticket.
Quote from: mag360 on March 04 2015 12:37:56 AM MST
Energy dump is not a wounding mechanism in handgun rounds. Sufficient penetration is the most important. 180gr and 200gr xtp at moderate velocities are the ticket.
I'd like to leave all the energy inside the bad guy, that's what I meant by energy dump; I suppose I should have phrased it as "dumping all its energy" to avoid confusion. I don't disagree that it's not a wounding mechanism, in pistol calibers, but I'd rather my bullet penetrate only as much as it needs to and no more while going as fast as possible. If it's 200gr and penetrates through and through and leaves the body with any amount of energy, that's lost potential in a temporary wound channel. If the temporary wound channel runs from stem to stern and ends right where the bullet comes to rest in the back side of the bad guy, that's much more efficient than shooting a heavier bullet straight through them. Not to mention possibly having sufficient energy to wound a bystander.
I see what you are saying. In my book if it can go more than 18" in ballistic gel covered with denim i think it should have expanded a little more.
Well we can do the what's better debate, a faster lighter round, or a slower heavier round. But my defense load is a 180 grain hollowpoint. I have some Underwood and some Ted Nugent.
Quote from: Intercooler on March 02 2015 05:44:10 PM MST
Have you looked at any of the YouTube gel videos on the master sheet? Cabela's has had their Hornady 175's in there everytime I went. Nothing wrong with them for self defense.
I'm going to take you up on your recommendation! I called Cabelas and they have a few boxes of the 175gr Critical Defense in stock. If I can get there, through the snow and traffic later today or tomorrow, I'll pick up some to try in the G20.
Of course, I want to utilize the energy potential of the 10mm. But having survived one face-to-face encounter already, I prefer to have total reliability along with penetration and expansion in a SD round. This is paramount.
As I get used to the G20... I'll be practicing more with the higher velocity rounds like I did when I broke-in the pistol.
After all that I've read and watched on the videos, it looks like for a solid higher velocity JHP, many prefer the Underwood 165gr GD. When he has more of these in stock, I'll pick up a bunch of boxes and try 'em again.
Excellent discussion once again! Appreciate the information and experience of others with the 10mm.
Quote from: mag360 on March 04 2015 12:37:56 AM MST
Energy dump is not a wounding mechanism in handgun rounds. Sufficient penetration is the most important. 180gr and 200gr xtp at moderate velocities are the ticket.
This is true. If energy dump were a wounding mechanism then there would be a lot of dead football players on the field. I've calculated the "energy dump"of two grown men colliding at full sprint, and it is a big number. Also, stabbings wouldn't be very dangerous due to their comparatively low energy dump values. Energy is of course not completely irrelevant, but it is a hard to understand concept and an unreliable predictor of terminal effects.
Quote from: gandog56 on March 04 2015 08:11:14 AM MST
Well we can do the what's better debate, a faster lighter round, or a slower heavier round. But my defense load is a 180 grain hollowpoint. I have some Underwood and some Ted Nugent.
That's a solid load. I have that in both .40 S&W and 10mm for when I need a little more penetration, like in the winter time here in the NW. Most days I carry medium/light-medium XTPs in 155 or 165gr simply because I don't need the added penetration against most two-legged threats. Now if I was shooting through a window or something, I'd definitely step it up to at least 180gr. The mid-range weights are, for me, the best balance given the possible scenarios I might face on any given day.
Why do you prefer the 180gr over a 165gr or a 200gr, if I might ask?
Quote from: climb14er on March 03 2015 10:58:06 AM MST
What are the thoughts about carrying for SD, Underwood's slightly reduced power Delta Elite 180gr JHP?
I've been looking all over for reviews of this in a Glock 20 but haven't seen more than a few comments.
Anyone tried 'em in a G20?
Appears that it would be similar to the Silvertip or Hornady in power or a little bit faster.
I have about 300 rds of them they are a little hotter than Silvertips and Hornady. I have the Gold Dot version.
Quote from: Centimeter on March 04 2015 12:05:20 AM MST
Taterhead, sorry about directing my earlier question towards you while keeping in mind clib14er's initial question. I didn't mean to question your choice in weight, I meant to ask why you mentioned choosing this as it related to climb14er's initial question (to get you to elaborate so that it's more clearly explained as it relates to his question).
What you're describing sounds a lot like what the FBI experienced that eventually led to the creation of the .40 S&W: the desire for slightly less velocity in projectiles with the same diameter and in similar weights. I guess my question is why do you need the loading to be in 10mm brass if you can get .40 S&W that will do almost exactly what you need? Plus, typically, the bullets that tend to be used in those .40 loads were designed to fit in the .40 S&W performance envelope, aside from some of the bigger bullets like the 200gr Gold Dots and XTPs that are better suited to hotter 10mm loadings.
All that being said: I find, for myself, that a middle-weight projectile loaded hot is the best balance of both penetration and energy. It provides sufficient penetration, usually closer to 12" than to 18" but also a massive amount of energy being dumped in that foot, typically around 750-800 ft lbs. This reduced weight reduces the likelihood of over-penetration over that of a hot, heavy, load that might tend to completely pass through a human body. On the flip side the super-light projectiles might be screaming along but they also have little in the way of penetration while also being slightly more susceptible to severe deformation when they impact (in my experience) which may or may not be desirable.
The chronograph-indicated energy range on my G20 has thus far been 296 lb/ft - 900 lb/ft. Talk about versatility!
Your question is one that is asked a lot, "If you don't carry max effort 10 ammo, why not just go with the ol' short & weak."
I do load a fair amount of 40, and I carry 40 when I need a platform that is easier to conceal. My preference is for 10mm. The "FBI Load", that was the basis for 40 development, is about 200 fps seconds slower than my EDC ammo, so it isn't the same to say that it is equivalent to 40 ammo.
In this fine versatile cartridge, there is a continuum. On the lower energy side are the "just make USPSA major and maybe a little less" loads. Then step up to the FBI loads. From there you take a moderate step up to the Win STHP space, and that is the velocity where the bullet makers seemed to put a ceiling on the upper threshold of the design parameters. Keep cranking 'er up and then get to full power 10mm ammo. I don't have to tell you that, but I state this to establish a premise. My choice to avoid max velocity ammo in my social SD ammo does not mean it is the same thing as shooting 40. I hope that makes sense.
Here is a little metaphor. The new Chevy Silverado 3500 HD can tow 23,000 pounds. :o One wouldn't always NEED to tow 23,000 in order for that vehicle to be useful. But it is nice to know that you CAN when the situation warrants it. :D
A side note, I have spent quite of bit of time working on the upper limit of this cartridge. I have measured 900 lb/ft of energy over my chronograph from by bone stock G20, for example. Lately I have working on the bottom end of that versatility range, and that G20 is up to the task. I have developed loads with WSF that will run in minor territory flawlessly. That is the bottom end of the useful range for that powder.
My next test, just for grins, is to see if I can go lower still. I inherited a NICE supply of some Win 425AA. It works great for soft-shooting 40 ammo, but I'm looking for excuses to burn it up. 452AA was superseded by WST. With the quicker-burning power, I'm going to go lower still and see how close I can get to the IDPA SSP power factor of 125 and still reliably cycle the G20. Again, just for fun, but I expect a soft softie in that big G20. IF it will still cycle. Minimum SSP PF would be a 180 @ 700 fps. My guess is that I'll run into cycling issues at some point. I'll report back. I have a bunch of other chrony projects on the docket at the moment, so it might take a few.
Quote from: Taterhead on March 04 2015 09:39:40 PM MST
Here is a little metaphor. The new Chevy Silverado 3500 HD can tow 23,000 pounds. :o One wouldn't always NEED to tow 23,000 in order for that vehicle to be useful. But it is nice to know that you CAN when the situation warrants it. :D
I get what you're saying. It just struck me as overkill to use a large case/weapon like the 10mm and yet purposely down-load it to just above a hot .40 S&W loading. However, I do understand that you have a preference and that you want it to go just a bit quicker than the .40 S&W yet not so quick as the same weight in 10mm. If your comfort-zone is right at 1300 and neither full-house, fully-loaded, .40 S&W nor full-house 10mm will get you there, you have only one option left: use the bigger case but don't load it as full. It just sucks that you have to drive your 6.6L diesel around but never really be able to get to get on it hard from every red light.
Your SD bullets were designed with what velocities in mind?
My wilderness carry IS a hot max effort hand load. Pulling all 23,000 pounds there. But that bullet is up to the task. I also know, to the the fraction of a grain, how much powder is in each case
Underwood is at the razor's edge. I want margine for error, and it is just not there if you are launching ammo that fast. Fun. Yes. I like to load and shoot that type of ammo too. But I know that Underwood can't possibly load to the same care that I do, and produce in volume. So I'm going to ask that, ammo that is made on someone's else's machine, is backed away from the cliff somewhat in case the guy over there pulling the handle is having a bad day.
And a little google searching will find guys who documented pressure issues with the Underwoods and Swamp Foxes (RIP Mike) of the world. Not trying to pick on them. Stand up guys providing a product that people are asking for.
Good discussion. Hope that clarifies the point somewhat.
Ah, that makes it a bit more clear. I wasn't understanding what you were referring to when you mentioned the margin for error as it pertained to self-defense ammunition. I see now that you're concerned with over-pressure situations and potential catastrophic failure of your ammunition. Leaving a comfort-zone or cushion in your case pressure seems like a safe enough idea to me; I understand the need for playing it safe when you're right on the razor's edge regarding pressure. Thank you for clarifying.
I like reading these posts ,I have heard from more than a few LEO'S I know who all thought my 10mm would over penatrate and possibly pass through and dump the remaining energy in a bystamnder which again would be a Liability BUT I would think a 135 grainers or so duplicating or exceeding .357 mag specs would defeat most common barriers ie..windshields light sheet metal ply wood and sheet rock and hopefully expand quickly enough to not over penatrate a bg .I have no personal experience here BUT I have such long drawn out debates with these LEO'S justifying carring a 10mm vs. a standard 9mm,40S&W or .45 any how just my 2 cents ain't worth much and I still love my 10mm .
I really like the lighter weight rounds, like the 155 XTPs currently occupying my magazines. They're light but not too light; they'll penetrate just about as far as I'm comfortable with in ballistic gel so any apprehension I might have about over-penetration is controlled well enough. Truthfully I don't typically anticipate having to shoot through a barrier in a self defense situation, save possibly glass, but I know that the XTPs do well enough through glass that it wouldn't be a problem if I had to in a pinch (which is probably true of most ammunition). When you get right down to it it's all really just personal choice, just like your choice in clothing or a car or a house or anything else: what you are most comfortable with, depending on your personal preferences, is what you should go with. Just keep up on your research and always maintain an open mind.
The 155 grain XTP's are a great choice!
I currently have Underwood's excellent 135 grain JHP loaded into my G20SF, but in my "carry" G29SF I have Underwood's 140 grain xtreme penetrator. Gel and penetration tests on the xtreme penetrator are impressive, as is the real-world FACT that monolithic, solid copper slug will punch through a car door - including the reinforcing beam....expanding bullets tend to NOT make it through if they hit that reinforced area.
Super expanders are swell, but I always consider "what if I get into a car fight"....I want handgun slugs that can punch through until I have the opportunity to get to the trunk and my AR.
I am the oddball here I use UW 165gr 180gr 200gr I just keep stepping up weight as I go through the mag.
Quote from: 10mmfan on March 25 2015 07:47:45 AM MDT
I am the oddball here I use UW 165gr 180gr 200gr I just keep stepping up weight as I go through the mag.
Same here. Use uw 155 grain and doubletap 165 grain in my carry mag. Spare mag is uw 200 grain.
I like the 165gr and 200gr Gold Dots and 200gr Hornady XTP for woods carry.
I'm a fan of the factory 155gr and 180gr Hornady XTP, recoil isn't bad and they still scoot along plenty fast for self defense use, and the XTP in general is not only accurate, but penetrates well and expands commendably.
Perhaps I am looking and thinking about this all wrong, but if someone is barreling toward me and/or my family, THE LAST thing on my mind is over-penetration. I want to do as much damage as possible as quickly as possible.
Pat