I'm not not new to firearms, but in the last two years my eyes have been opened to bullet performance. Obviously full Metal jacket and hard cast bullets will typically always penatrate deeper but I've seen that extreme velocity can Actually lessen penatration with hollow points and jacked soft points. My theory and the purpose of this discussion is the max velocity and energy transfer on impact hurts penatration. Plus I've noticed bullets like 200gr XTP and Nosler seem to perform best in the 1000-1100fps range. Once you push them faster they expand too rapidly, fragment and don't penatrate as well. So in conclusion for hunters at least I think nitro 10mm loads are not the way to go. Has anyone else experienced this or do you have different thoughts on the subject?
I certainly agree on a lot of points there. The hornady factory 200gr load only comes in around 1085fps from a glock 20. I think it is ideal in the mid 1100's. If you are hunting with say the underwood 200gr xtp it will take 50 yards to come down from that 1270fps its smokin along at, if you are shooting with a little distance its fine but for close in work id look for hard cast WFNGC or a slightly slower loading.
Well it does come down to bullet placement on and in the intended target! You sort of need to see the path the the bullet is going to take through the vitals and what will be impacted.
I agree with Shadow it really depends on the animal and the shot placement and angle thus amount of penetration to get to the vitals.
When you consider the variables when the trigger is pulled they are almost overwhelming in number and scope.
But you have to consider the wound channel both temporary and permanent as both have a tremendous impact on results.
For example; a 220 Swift with barnes X running close to 4000 FPS will drop deer like the hammer of Thor small diameter bullet but the upset and hydraulic shock causes an incredible destruction of tissue both temporary and permanent but the shock wave can and does hit the nervous central system with authority it's lights out. Now will that bullet run on a hard quarrying away shot well construction certainly has allot to do with it. Barnes can be driven hard and the wadcutter portion goes deep. So in bullet construction I look for good tissue disruption an destruction and if that tissue is the vital tissue results will be fatal. So pick the bullet for the job and put the bullet in the best spot to disrupt vital tissue.
All valid points. I like to use hollow points on deer and pigs to increase my odds of nicking vitals but at the same time I still believe in the Elmer Keith theory "Two holes bleed better than one". Maybe I should just alternate hard cast and hollow points in my magazine....hahahaha
I have a home made backstop in my garage to test loads in which uses sand to stop the bullets. The box is wood and about 2' long and 12"x12" square with a mud flap on the front and an old bullet proof vest behind the sand. I have fired a lot of different caliber handgun loads into this backstop, 38,9mm,357, 40, 10mm, 41 mag, 44 mag and 45 colt. I was surprised when I changed the sand the first time because the hotter rounds generally don't penetrate more than 8"-10" and expend their energy quickly. The only rounds that make it within a couple of inches of the vest is the 750- 850 fps 250 grain 45 Colt loads. There is something to be said for a slow heavy large caliber bullet when it comes to penetration.
Shadow..I know it's not a heavy bullet has anyone done any testing with the 140gr lehigh extreme penatrater? I see Underwood is loading Lehigh bullets. Looks promising for us hunters but it may over penetrate for self defense.
Yea the 140gr Lehigh extreme penetrator not going to deform, so the hole is going to be smaller, but may cut cleanly and bleed for both entrance and exit.
It is my understanding someone here in AZ took an Elk with a loading from LeHigh. Allegedly the bullet did a through and through but dropped the Bull right there.
I ordered some Underwood 380 and 10mm both loaded with Lehigh extreme penatrater bullets. We're going to try and kill a Hog with the 380 and see if the bullet actually cuts flesh with hydraulic pressure the way it cuts ballistics gel. We have pretty specific laws in Florida about hunting with non expanding bullets, but on private property hogs are fair game by any means.
I wish LeHigh would increase the length of the .40 component for the extra weight to use in 10mm.
Found out the elk I was previoulsy informed about was actually taken with .44 mag. It was thought the shooter was using his 10mm barrel on his TC, but chose to go with the .44 instead due to the weight of 220gr in the bullet.
Quote from: Shane668 on February 21 2015 06:43:41 AM MST
I'm not not new to firearms, but in the last two years my eyes have been opened to bullet performance. Obviously full Metal jacket and hard cast bullets will typically always penatrate deeper but I've seen that extreme velocity can Actually lessen penatration with hollow points and jacked soft points. My theory and the purpose of this discussion is the max velocity and energy transfer on impact hurts penatration. Plus I've noticed bullets like 200gr XTP and Nosler seem to perform best in the 1000-1100fps range. Once you push them faster they expand too rapidly, fragment and don't penatrate as well. So in conclusion for hunters at least I think nitro 10mm loads are not the way to go. Has anyone else experienced this or do you have different thoughts on the subject?
The faster a substance moves in relation to another substance, the more that substance acts like it is in the next lower state. A gas behaves like a liquid, and a liquid behaves like a solid. Body tissue is mostly water, so in relation to a fast moving bullet it behaves more like a solid. The faster the bullet, the more dense the tissue appears, and the harder it is for the bullet to penetrate.
I wrote something here a while ago: http://10mm-firearms.com/reloading-10mm-ammo/why-load-lighter-bullets-in-10mm/msg37566/#msg37566
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My_old_glock.....ty for putting it more scientifically. I guess my initial point was to think of flesh like non-neutronion fluid. The harder you hit it the harder it becomes. We're pushing our 10mm bullets to extreme velocities and in essence working away from our goal. If you look at .45 colt bullets in the 700-800 fps realm you see amazing penetration. I'm trying to find a good balance between penetration and tissue damage for my hunting rounds. I think 200gr xtp's in the 1100fps range might be my ticket. The only thing I'm giving up is long range trajectory.
Has anyone tried the HAP bullet? Should be less expanding so no need to reduce the velocity.
Quote from: Dave84 on June 14 2015 01:03:15 AM MDT
Has anyone tried the HAP bullet? Should be less expanding so no need to reduce the velocity.
I think the HAP is suppose to be a low cost training alternative to their hollow-point bullets. The HAP bullets have the same basic shape and weight as their HP counterpart.
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The HAP is short for Hornady Action Pistol. It is intended for IPSC/Steel Plate and other forms of competition where expansion is only relevent in terms of diminishing the damage to the steels that a FMJ might cause.
I see.
In the narrow issue , the OP is basically correct about penetration per se. In rule of thumb , expansion is inversely porportional to penetration.
The question of what is "better" for hunting has a lot more variables. The game, shot placement , what shots/ angles you are willing to take, and frankly the philosophical preferences of the hunter. Examples : Small-ish whitetail , only taking unobstructed heart/ lung shots , only moderate penetration needed , and big expansion is a plus. Aiming for offside shoulder on an elk, or a large boar lots of penetration is needed. Controled expansion vs hard cast is Ford vs Chevy raised to a near religous intensity.
i think your basic premise is correct. i also think that in that lesser penetration the bullet is transferring more and all of its considerable energy to the target.
I don't know if anyone has seen the hunting show with Razor Dobbs but he hunts with his Dan Wesson 10mm 9 times out of 10. He has taken axis deer, mule deer and whitetail deer and he uses the same bullet and claims to love the performance of it. It's the 155gr Barnes TAC-XP at a claimed 1500fps.
Quote from: Biggfoot44 on July 22 2015 02:42:10 AM MDT
In the narrow issue , the OP is basically correct about penetration per se. In rule of thumb , expansion is inversely porportional to penetration.
The question of what is "better" for hunting has a lot more variables. The game, shot placement , what shots/ angles you are willing to take, and frankly the philosophical preferences of the hunter. Examples : Small-ish whitetail , only taking unobstructed heart/ lung shots , only moderate penetration needed , and big expansion is a plus. Aiming for offside shoulder on an elk, or a large boar lots of penetration is needed. Controled expansion vs hard cast is Ford vs Chevy raised to a near religous intensity.
100%
Quote from: Gen4G20 on October 29 2015 05:13:47 AM MDT
I don't know if anyone has seen the hunting show with Razor Dobbs but he hunts with his Dan Wesson 10mm 9 times out of 10. He has taken axis deer, mule deer and whitetail deer and he uses the same bullet and claims to love the performance of it. It's the 155gr Barnes TAC-XP at a claimed 1500fps.
I haven't seen that show, but I use these bullets, out of necessity in CA. Although I would use a lead-based bullet given the choice, they are effective. The velocities I load are 1500 FPS (5.2" Glock), 1590 (6.5" 10mm revolver), and 1950 (6.5" .38-40 revolver).
This is not new to the argument old guys know that a high velocity round may very well explode on impact and not penetrate at all. Particularly if it hits something hard like bone.
Quote from: buckeyeborn on November 12 2015 07:30:15 PM MST
This is not new to the argument old guys know that a high velocity round may very well explode on impact and not penetrate at all. Particularly if it hits something hard like bone.
Perhaps, with traditional lead-based bullets. We're talking monolithic, here. The Barnes bullets hold together quite well, all things considered. They are better when overdriven, in my experience. I don't like that I HAVE to use them, but they do the job, and do it well. Hard obstacles, such as bone, they really shine.
They do a fine job. I would like to see us moving to copper jacketed depleted uranium slugs in lead free zones. ;D
I know one thing the 105 grain DRT Dynamic Research Technology bullets are leaving my LW long slide at 1800 FPS and the do not penetrate extremely deep but the game drops at the shot considerable damage to the boiler room.
The Shadow knows Erich. This individual has it right when he postulates:
When it comes to handgun rounds;
a) Shot placement is king,
b) penetration is queen,
e) everything else is "angels dancing on the heads of pins".
Pigs and bears need heavy bullets to penetrate gristle plates and bone.
Captain O