I've narrowed my decision down to a Glock 20 Gen 3 SF or Glock 20 Gen 4. More details are located below if you have time to read it. My big question is... Which platform is more reliable/which is more reliable with true 10mm ammunition (not glorified 40 S&W)? Initially I planned on getting the Gen 4 as I assumed it had advantages since it is newer, had the dual RSA, backstraps, etc. I have read the Glock 20 Gen 4 has had some issues with reliability, not sure if this is still the case or old news. I'm a right handed shooter, don't care about switching mag release. I have medium/large hands, tend to prefer smaller grips. I'm concerned with reliability, if they are equal then I guess I'd prefer having the new Gen 4, because it is newer and might have slightly better grip/features.
I have literally researched these topics for hours, looked at threads on this forum and elsewhere. I was hoping to start this thread to gain 1st hand experiences and new insight, which I have found can sometimes be better accomplished by starting a new discussion with specifics, rather than bringing up an old thread.
The details...
I will be shooting reloads exclusively, I am an experienced reloader. I will be shooting 180 grain lead projectiles and 180 grain XTPs out of the factory barrel, occasionally 155 grain XTPs since I use those for 40S&W guns. If my brass is getting messed up from the factory barrel or I get leading, I will get a KKM factory length (no 6 inch), I don't want excessive bulging of the brass or damage to the rim, I need to re use my brass (although it seems that Glock barrels don't bulge brass like they used to perhaps).
I should not get leading as I buy quality cast bullets sized correctly at correct hardness, and I will slug the barrel. I will be shooting hand-loaded ammunition at high pressure/velocity with the appropriate powders, nothing over book maximums, but these will be 10mm, not 40 S&W. I will go with Dawson Precision for adjustable sights.
I plan on running the factory barrel and I had planned on using the factory springs. I still plan on using the factory barrel, but I plan on purchasing a 22 or 24 pound ISMI flat spring with guide rod to try out, likely from glockmeister. Initially I planned on running the factory RSA on the Gen 4, but I heard about issues with the guns having failure to feeds, seemed like they were hanging up on the last round in the mag (seemed mag/follower related to me, but maybe not) and maybe having other issues. I plan on trying the factory RSA and a 22/24 pound ISMI on whichever platform I choose. I don't want to beat the hell out of the gun. To me it seems if the 17 pound stock springs can cycle the pathetic factory ammunition, I should be running something slightly heavier as I am only going to shoot "heavier ammunition". I have also heard the heavier springs usually do fine with the light stuff anyhow. Then the next day I change my mind and think I should just leave the barrel and springs stock.
Any comments/questions/suggestions are appreciated, thanks.
I have the Gen3 SF, I run Wolff 22 pound spring. Gun has been flawless with my reloads as well as doubletap, underwood and Buffalo bore. I imagine the Gen4 issues are most likely worked out but I can say my Gen 3 20 has been perfection. Can't go wrong with Gen 3 then if you desire the Gen4 pick up at a later time. I also recently acquired the 29 in Gen 3. Love it as well
MY opinion ( for what its worth ) would be the G20sf Gen 3 ( thats what I have used for about 2 1/2 years now). If you can get your hands on one anymore. Mine has morphed from an EDC to a hunting gun with a 6'6" LW barrel and a 20LB recoil spring, After I got my G29sf Gen 3 to replace it as my EDC. I have put just about anything through the 20 you can think of including my hot loads - never skipped a beat till I went over 300 rds with out cleaning it ( to see how long it would go )
This is what it looks like now.
(http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk296/SDS47/10MM/IMG_20141221_000024.jpg) (http://s283.photobucket.com/user/SDS47/media/10MM/IMG_20141221_000024.jpg.html)
(http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk296/SDS47/10MM/IMG_20141220_235940.jpg) (http://s283.photobucket.com/user/SDS47/media/10MM/IMG_20141220_235940.jpg.html)
My EDC Now is a G29sf Gen 3 LW4.6" 2 port barrel with 15rd mags with adapters, It matches everything the stock G20 can do with a slightly smaller frame.
(http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk296/SDS47/10MM/G29sfCCW.jpg) (http://s283.photobucket.com/user/SDS47/media/10MM/G29sfCCW.jpg.html)
Anyway. the Gen 3's have unmatched reliability - the Gen 4's haven't made it yet.
Doug
Quote from: ShadeTreeVTX on January 14 2015 10:14:57 PM MST
MY opinion ( for what its worth ) would be the G20sf Gen 3 ( thats what I have used for about 2 1/2 years now). If you can get your hands on one anymore.
Are they that difficult to find? I see they are listed on buds right now...
I think the demand has slacked some. A year back and they were pretty hard to locate.
I would say in the past and maybe currently the sf has had the gen 4 beat in reliability. One thing to consider is that support and the aftermarket will be geared towards the gen 4 later.
Thanks for the replies everyone. This purchase is probably a month away, so I still have time to think about it. At this point I'm wondering what the Gen 4 offers that actually matters... that the Gen 3 SF doesn't all ready have. The only thing I see is interchangeable back-straps, so I can mess with the ergonomics. I will try to handle the gun in some local shops if they have any G20s or G29s, if they don't I will try to handle the 45 caliber models to get a feel for the ergos I guess.
I am assuming I will like the Gen 4 and SF models since I prefer thinner grips, but that is an assumption since I just don't shoot Glocks, I guess it could be a possibility that the larger grip feels better. This will be my first Glock, I know they are quality but have gone with Sig, Ruger, and Smith in other hand gun calibers, but the G20 seems like the only option for me in 10mm.
You might want to wait and look at the new Glock 40 - 10mm - Long Slide
It looks like its built on the 20 Gen 3 platform no interchangeable back straps - witch to me is part of the problem with frame flex in the 10mm Gen 4's ( thats just my thoughts on it - the other Gen4's don't seem to have that problem - 10mm power - to peanut powder in the others) Also its dovetailed on the slide for the Aim Point type of sights and regular sights also with either a 5.6" or 6" barrel ( not sure witch ) a pic of the G40 Hunter.
Something to think about.
http://imgur.com/a/B9Anl
Doug
I'm selling a Gen3 20sf. Less than 200 rounds through it
As of now, I think the G4 and G3 are fairly equal in the reliability. Any G4 manufactured before 1/2014 may not be as reliable as a G3, due to the RSA, however, I believe Glock has addressed this issue. So I didn't vote because one is not more reliable; rather they are equally reliable now.
Depending on what you want, the new G40 is interesting and may be a consideration.
I do not know which is more reliable.
I would get the Gen 4 because I have large hands. In California we can only get Gen3 Glocks unless someone brings a Gen 4 in from out of state.
.
Didn't vote cause I don't have one of each. If I were shopping, I would be looking at older than Gen 4. I have paws so I don't care if it is an SF or not.
Have an Gen4 G20 that FTF with real 10mm power ammo...I voted Gen3 SF. Until Glock issues a fix for Gen4 G20 FTF I don't know why anyone would get one over a Gen3 SF unless they absolutely had to have Gen4 features.
Quote from: chucky2 on January 21 2015 12:25:41 PM MST
Have an Gen4 G20 that FTF with real 10mm power ammo...I voted Gen3 SF. Until Glock issues a fix for Gen4 G20 FTF I don't know why anyone would get one over a Gen3 SF unless they absolutely had to have Gen4 features.
No Offense.......But I believe there are more G4s out there that equal the reliability of the G3, than not. The folks I know/heard who have G4s not working properly are on the interwebs. The few that I know personally have no reliability issues....well, I take that back, one had a new mag, that came with the gun, that didn't feed properly, Glock sent them two more and the a new spring and follower for the one that couldn't feed properly. That's my personal experience.
I'd honestly say No, they aren't. The Gen4 G20's haven't been out near as long as the Gen3/Gen3SF, by shear numbers alone there'd be more Gen3/Gen3SF than Gen4. To be sure, there are Gen40 G20's out there that aren't having issues with real full power 10mm ammo, but for those of us that are affected, Glock Technical Support won't fix your Gen4 unless you jump 'go nuclear' and insist on a Gen3/Gen3SF - that is their "fix". Their Tech Support is so on the ball that their normal tech support folks don't/won't acknowledge the issue their own 2nd level armorers know full well about. Worse, even for easy things they have less than impressive turnaround: I've 3 times now requested the #4 followers for my Gen4 mags - once calling in, another webform, and another calling in. That was months ago now since my last call in...no followers, no contact. The point here is to avoid Glock support at all costs (because shipping your pistol UPS Next Day Air will cost you and dealing with them while not nasty can have your problem persisting).
It really boils down to this for me: If a bad guy was coming through the door and my Glock G20 was going to be loaded with Underwood 165gr Gold Dots, would I want to bet my houses life on either a Gen3/Gen3SF or a Gen4? Who knowing of the Gen4 FTF issues would consciously pick a Gen4? I own one, and I wouldn't...
Chuck
The Gen 3 is proven.
I only have 650 rounds through my Gen 4, but with the 24 pound RSA it has been flawless (except for a bad mag I got rid of).
Quote from: redbaron007 on January 21 2015 01:08:42 PM MST
No Offense.......But I believe there are more G4s out there that equal the reliability of the G3, than not. The folks I know/heard who have G4s not working properly are on the interwebs. The few that I know personally have no reliability issues....well, I take that back, one had a new mag, that came with the gun, that didn't feed properly, Glock sent them two more and the a new spring and follower for the one that couldn't feed properly. That's my personal experience.
I cannot say anything about newer vs. older, but out of the box mine had trouble. Adding aftermarket stuff didn't help at all, and likely made it worse. To me, it wasn't a RSA issue, but a frame flex issue. The slide would pass over the next round in the magazine with high impulse ammo. I blew up a frame due to reloading PPU brass, and I don't know if it was the new frame, switching way from aftermarket, or what, but the gun is now extremely reliable.
The Gen4 issues were not imagination. They were real!!! If they fixed them, that's good.
I didn't vote, and I like my Gen4 just fine now, but I was REALLY frustrated prior to its overhaul.
Greg
OP checking in. I have decided to go with the Gen 3 SF based on: more proven/time tested design, Gen 4 problems seem more common than Gen 3/SF, don't care about the backstraps (especially if they potentially impact the rigidity/durability of the frame), and the Gen 4 features don't really do much for me.
I also feel like it is a safer bet using aftermarket single spring RSAs in the Gen 3 since it was designed for a single spring, rather than using single spring RSAs in the G4 which was designed for a dual RSA... just how I feel, not sure if there is any truth to that logic.
Now I need to decide between a 22 or 24 pound spring to try out.
I've been using a 20 lb spring in my G20sf G3 but than again I don't shoot Nuke loads all that much - just hot loads( my own ) I was going to move up to a 22lb but since I'm not having any problems with this spring I didn't - I'm using a LW 6.6" barrel and expected some problems but have had none.
So if it ain't broke don't break it.
Doug
22 or 24#? You would never need those. I've been reading here more than one person mentioning very heavy springs. I don't see the need. As ShadeTree says, if it works don't mess with it.
The hottest of the hottest are fine with 20#. In fact 17# does pretty good with decently hot rounds.
What I DO have a problem with is the inconsistent plastic guide rod. That thing needs to be gone. Get a good stainless with 17, 20 and MAYBE 22# springs. The plastic one really is just that, not repeatable. One retraction loosey twangy, the next bangy grabby. It's probably OK in the 9mm guns, but with big 10mm loads, it's not living a happy life.
Quote from: ShadeTreeVTX on January 22 2015 04:56:44 AM MST
I've been using a 20 lb spring in my G20sf G3 but than again I don't shoot Nuke loads all that much - just hot loads( my own ) I was going to move up to a 22lb but since I'm not having any problems with this spring I didn't - I'm using a LW 6.6" barrel and expected some problems but have had none.
So if it ain't broke don't break it.
Doug
Quote from: Pablo on January 22 2015 05:11:52 AM MST
22 or 24#? You would never need those. I've been reading here more than one person mentioning very heavy springs. I don't see the need. As ShadeTree says, if it works don't mess with it.
The hottest of the hottest are fine with 20#. In fact 17# does pretty good with decently hot rounds.
What I DO have a problem with is the inconsistent plastic guide rod. That thing needs to be gone. Get a good stainless with 17, 20 and MAYBE 22# springs. The plastic one really is just that, not repeatable. One retraction loosey twangy, the next bangy grabby. It's probably OK in the 9mm guns, but with big 10mm loads, it's not living a happy life.
Thanks for the comments, I keep going back and forth between staying with the factory RSA and going heavier, which is why I plan on just trying them both out at this point.
I feel that while the 17# factory RSA might work fine and be 100 percent reliable, it might not be the best.
I've read reports that he G20s will cycle almost any ammo with the 22# springs, in my opinion the gun might be under-sprung so it can handle the pathetic/weak factory 10mm offerings at 17#.
I know the 17# and 20# will work fine, what I have a problem with is the frame taking a beating with hotter loads. If the 17# spring can handle the "10mm factory" rounds that are really glorified 40 S&W, then I would rather have a heavier spring as I plan on shooting near max published loads almost exclusively.
I guess I will consider the 20# and 22# spring, likely the 22#, since it seems like a good compromise (heavier but not extreme). I plan on loading some mid powered loads and shooting them with a weaker grip (not pure limp wrist) to ensure the reliability of the set up, if it runs good then I will be happy. If I have issues I will probably just stay with the 17# spring.