I know a bunch of you reload. In your opinion; At what number of rounds do you consider it worth it to load on a progressive press as opposed to a single stage or turret press? Like especially when a press isn't dedicated to a single load and things need to be switched over to load a different cartridge? I only have one single stage press at this time and between rifle and pistol rounds I generally don't load up more than 200 rounds at a time, much of the time only 50 - 100. So far for me it hasn't seemed worth it to go to a progressive. But then I think if I had a progressive I might go ahead and load more rounds at a sitting.
So if you have to start out loading a specific cartridge by switching everything over on your progressive press, as opposed to just using your single stage or turret press, is there a general amount of rounds you have to be loading to go to the progressive to consider it worth it? I hope you guys can tell what I'm asking. I feel like I'm having a hard time figuring out how to ask what I'm trying to ask. Hopefully it's clear enough. ::)
I agree - I went straight to progressive and than went to single stage - I let myself get sucked into all those different type loads ( 7 different powders and 7 different bullet heads )- now I've gone hybrid - setting the powder drop on the progressive machine is a pain in the a** and I've had problems with the primer set up,( upside down primers ) cant see them till the end product. So I full size and prime on the single and bell the top and power drop than use the last two stages on the progressive to seat and crimp. The only time I go full progressive are for runs over 200 with the powders that flow real good through the progressive powder drop.
Now in my case I only load 10mm and 40 S&W - 3 different 10mm's to load for - 10mm Mech-Tech( carbine ). G20 6.6"barrel hunting gun. G29 EDC.
The 40S&W I load for my son M&P full size and my daughter's M&P Shield.( change out the head for the 40S&W I have a Dillon 650 )
I have a card file for all the loads I use and am going to try - the only way to keep track of them. I use to have all my load data on the computor - than it went belly up and I lost the hard drive, new putor now and I keep a hard copy on my loading data.
Doug
Quote from: REDLINE on January 03 2015 04:08:59 AM MST
snip... I only have one single stage press at this time and between rifle and pistol rounds I generally don't load up more than 200 rounds at a time, much of the time only 50 - 100. So far for me it hasn't seemed worth it to go to a progressive. ...snip....
For the amount you load, IMO, I would say go with a Lee Classic Turret but not a full progressive.
The LCT can change out calipers in a matter of seconds ( with the extra turret disks, all set up with dies/powder drop )... While it takes about 15-20mins to reset my progressive to new calipers. When running loads(pistol) on the LCT , I can get around 175-200 per hour time ( more if I use pre-primed brass )
So, In the time I take to change over, I can run close to 50 rounds on the LCT. From your statement thats close to the number you usu make at one time.
Since you've worked with a single stage, the LCT will be very comfy in use compared to current unit.
BTW, if you do decide to go progressive anyway, I
wouldn't recommend the Lee pro 1000's ... some do like them/ others hate them. I have one too and can say tho it does work well when running, it's very finicky to keep running without problems... mine only works fairly well cause I was very careful setting up, clean it often, and don't change anything !!!
I just use it for one plunking round I shoot the most and that's it.
good luck
Here is what I do on the single stage RCBS Big MAX; Case preparations mostly
I pass through size all 10mm, 40S&W, 357Sig, 9x25Dillon, 45ACP cases (I have done as many as 1000 case plus in a sitting)
I also do all my sizing and depriming of the rifle cases because of the extra leverage with this press.
The RCBS Jr. gets the most work because it has a shorter stroke and I can feel whats going on...
Size and deprime all pistol cases (sometimes as many as 1000 case plus in a sitting, working on one specific cartridge only)
Case expansion is also done many cases at a time, in the effort to have cases ready they are labeled and bagged as prepped.
When I load, I am hand priming with either the RCBS or LEE hand primer units.
With all the cases prepared ahead of time, I am only doing the power measures (hand weighed) and then seating to proper COAL without any crimp in this step. After I dump the scale pan into a casing, I drop another powder charge in the pan an let it settle on the scale while seat a bullet in the charged casing. This gives me another look at the powder in the casing.
The next step is running all those cases again, this time crimping ONLY to finish! I even wipe them down before bagging.
When you are only working on one step at a time there is less confusion even with occasional distractions.
Now the pull-downs are a different process, because I take one down, and go through all the steps, except depriming, to keep it all together.(I resize them without depriming, the case neck expansion to provide good bullet tension) Yes, this takes some time, as I have to change and adjust the dies as I work on different bullet styles.
Hey, its what brings us all this great info that is posted in the pull-down sections here! ;D
But I can say that the Dillon 550B is about to be put to work doing some target/play ammo...for now it sits in waiting... ::)
My main challenge is taking everything out of my reloading room and reorganizing and replacing some shelves that couldn't handle the weight... :o
When you shoot a WHOLE lotta bullets! Unfortunately I tried a progressive once and it just never did work right for me so I went back to my single stage. Now if I would have had the bucks to get like a Dillon, maybe. But I'm gun shy now.
Learned on hornady LNL. Seems logical to me to make bullets assembly line style. I do hand weight (trickle) .308. Have loaded 9,40,45,10,308 on this press.
Use single stage to pass thru 40 & 10mm.
Highly recommend progressive. Maybe I just don't want to work so hard.
Gandog has it right, whole lotta bullets. There has been range sessions that I will shoot 500+ bullets and will do that several times a month. Now that does not seem to sound like much but I don't have that much time to reload what I shoot so I load on two dillon 650's. One for small and one for large primer. Works well for me.
One of the big Dillon machines with all the bells and whistles does have a "Tim the Toolman" draw to it!!! What's not to love with all the gadgets doing their own things in perfect sync.
For me, at least for now, I'm changing bullets, charge weights, OAL lengths, and I'm a bit too fussy with the "within a tenth of a grain" accuracy. For now its my RCBS Chargmaster measuring for me and a Forster Co-Ax single stage press.
Somewhere down the road the XL650 may win out, but I'll need quicker access to a range (out the back door would be GREAT) and I'll have the perfect round for each caliber figured out for my volume hungry rounds before it would make sense. For now the time spent reloading is easier and more relaxing that loading up the equipment and driving an hour to get to a decent range. It puts a big hole in the day to be sure!!!
Greg
When you have this much brass to process:
(http://fellingfamily.net/images/762brass_web.jpg)
:P
You need 4 Dillion 1050's and lots of help at least.
Doug
Quote from: sqlbullet on January 05 2015 07:52:07 AM MST
When you have this much brass to process:
:P
Hmmm, Cement and brass in the same shot.
Another use for the cement mixer, doubles as a brass tumbler!!!
Greg
Quote from: ShadeTreeVTX on January 05 2015 03:00:51 PM MST
You need 4 Dillion 1050's and lots of help at least.
Doug
On the list (two at least)
Quote from: Geeman on January 05 2015 05:19:12 PM MST
Hmmm, Cement and brass in the same shot.
Another use for the cement mixer, doubles as a brass tumbler!!!
Greg
Also on the list.
Thanks for the replies so far. They helped. I'm in no hurry to do anything different than I already am but I have been contemplating moving forward to a turret or progressive for quite some time now. It won't happen in the immediate future but I'm thinking my next step up will be the Redding T-7 turret press. I figure unless I start loading a whole lot more rounds than I currently do there simply is no need to go all out progressive. Always fun thinking about it though.
I started with a Rockchucker and still use it for rifle and 44mag and 50ae.
Went to a Hornady Pro7 when I was loading pistol for 2 people.
My buddy bought the Pro7 about the time Dillon came out with their progressive, but who ever heard of Dillon right.
The Pro7 had a poorly designed priming and indexing system but it worked ok for a while.
The bullseye shooters in my club all bought Dillon Square Deals years ago.
Most bought 2, one for 45acp and one for 32sw or 38spl. I still have a STAR progressive in a box somewhere setup for 38spl.
That was a cool machine.
Now I have a Dillon 650 with a feeder, I usually load 600-1000 rnds before switching (pistol) calibers.
1000rnds takes under 3hrs including switching the caliber and resetting the powder measure.
My wife bought me a lee turret press kit last year. I wanted a single stage, but saw the major advantage to the turret press. I used it strictly in single stage all last year, manually rotating the head through each stage. I prime off the press at the couch using the Lee Prime Tool.
A note about the lee thru die powder measure. As long as I did my part, and not rush the powder stroke, it dropped exactly 9.6gr Longshot in 600 cartridges...(checked initially every 10th cartridge for the first 200, then every 20th after that) it does however leak powder out the sides of the discs.
About August of this 2014, my wife talked a shop into letting me have the Lyman Turret Mag press kit(powder measure. Case trimmer, balance beam scale, digital scale, case prep tools) 9 die sets and a heavy bench grinder table that the press was mounted to for $200.
It pays to keep your eyes open. That Lyman has turned case forming for my Herret and removing the bulge from 10mm so much easier because it has no flex in the head. That flex and shift in the turret head can bother me sometimes, I feel it can, and does, throw off bullet seating or case forming. I can adjust for it when seating bullets, but when case forming, it has cost me a couple of peices of brass due to visibly being bent, and I couldn't get the rounds to load right with the bend in the case. I was able to straighten one by resizing it on the Lyman. But the other I had cut down for a project.
Quote from: ShadeTreeVTX on January 05 2015 03:00:51 PM MST
You need 4 Dillion 1050's and lots of help at least.
Doug
And if those are military cases, a primer pocket swager!
The 1050 has an on press primer pocket swage. Hence that press being called out.
And yes, they are military brass, complete with crimp. I have also picked up about 15 unfired blanks from processing so far, and am only about 1/3 done.
Unfired.....?????
I have some 7.62X39 blanks somewhere. I got them to play with my grenade launcher on my Yugo SKS.
How do you know when you're ready fr a progressive? For me it was when I got tired of batch processing higher volume pistol and 223 ammo on the Rock Chucker. Don't get me wrong,I love the Rock Chucker and use it for a lot of things.
One consideration... as tempting as it is to buy a price point unit, take the long view and "buy once, cry once." Amortized overa lifetime, reloading gear is not that expensive. Another huge consideration is that if you have multiple ccalipers and will only have one machine... you want simple changeovers and inexpensive conversions. That led me to the Pro 2000. It is designed to use the same powder measure. You dont need to dedicate one per tool head. That saves time and money. A Uniflow with the small dum will cover pistol through 223 ammo, and it is so simple to reconfigure for a different cartridge.
It takes only 2.5 minutes to convert from 10mm to 223. Priming, powder, everything. APS priming is not widely adopted, but I love it. Of course the Pro 2000 is about to be superseded by the Pro Chucker 5/7 so some closeout deals might be forthcoming. Great press.
I tried a progressive. Took most of the fun out of it and kept spitting out completed shells with no primers. (Had so many problems getting that primer feeding thing working correctly) that I just gave it up and went back to my single stage press and prime them using a Lee hand primer.
Long story short for me it would be high volume of one or more calibers, like competitive style shooting. This would translate into at least 2,000 rounds or more a year in one or more guns (likely higher then that).
My father and I have came to the conclusion that I could never do a progressive. I know there are ways to ensure you don't double charge and load squibs, etc. However, I like knowing that every cartridge in my possession has been inspected at every step, usually twice for charges. I could never have the confidence on a progressive that I do on a single stage. I shoot several calibers, I usually shoot 1-2 times a week.
That being said, I have a decent amount loaded and brass prepped so I am ready to go, I load a decent amount during the winter, and my father loads with me. I only load on the weekends since my father and I split the costs of everything and I keep the stuff at his place, if I loaded during the week I would have even more done.
I got into reloading about three years ago. A family member gave me a hand me down reloading bench already set up with a RCBS Rockchucker complete with a PiggyBack II progressive kit installed. So I began reloading pistol rounds on the progressive. First thing I found was that the priming system was horrible! Like others have mentioned already, I would wind up with primers upside down or crushed into place sideways. I wouldn't know it until it spit out a completed round. I wound up purchasing a Lee hand primer and priming everything off the press.
Then when I got into loading my first rifle rounds, I found the progressive to be full of more shortcomings and wound up removing the PiggyBack II adaptor and using it as a single stage. I liked this so much that I ended purchasing another single stage press and reassembling the original one with the PiggyBack II setup so that I could choose to either go progressive or go single stage. Since then I have purchased another single stage press and have found that I use these two much more than I do the progressive. In fact the progressive doesn't get used much at all anymore unless I'm doing a large run of 9mm plinking ammo.
One of the driving reasons for doing so much of my reloading now on the single stage presses is control and quality. I have had nothing but difficulties keeping things consistent on the progressive Cartridge Overall Lengths and powder drops with certain powders was never as consistent as I would like it to be. For light target loads, that is ok, but for maximum loads or accuracy loads, the single stage works better.
Quote from: Dieselman on March 24 2015 03:18:48 PM MDT
I got into reloading about three years ago. A family member gave me a hand me down reloading bench already set up with a RCBS Rockchucker complete with a PiggyBack II progressive kit installed. So I began reloading pistol rounds on the progressive. First thing I found was that the priming system was horrible! Like others have mentioned already, I would wind up with primers upside down or crushed into place sideways. I wouldn't know it until it spit out a completed round. I wound up purchasing a Lee hand primer and priming everything off the press.
Then when I got into loading my first rifle rounds, I found the progressive to be full of more shortcomings and wound up removing the PiggyBack II adaptor and using it as a single stage. I liked this so much that I ended purchasing another single stage press and reassembling the original one with the PiggyBack II setup so that I could choose to either go progressive or go single stage. Since then I have purchased another single stage press and have found that I use these two much more than I do the progressive. In fact the progressive doesn't get used much at all anymore unless I'm doing a large run of 9mm plinking ammo.
One of the driving reasons for doing so much of my reloading now on the single stage presses is control and quality. I have had nothing but difficulties keeping things consistent on the progressive Cartridge Overall Lengths and powder drops with certain powders was never as consistent as I would like it to be. For light target loads, that is ok, but for maximum loads or accuracy loads, the single stage works better.
My guess is that you may have a different experience if you were to work on a progressive press designed to be a progressive from the beginning. Being that the Piggyback is a bolt-on setup, I was wary of it not being what I wanted. I strongly considered it a while back.
My progressive is not commonly known, but I really enjoy it for pistol and 223 loading (I have the auto-index RCBS Pro 2000). APS priming is very reliable, the press is simple in design and very stout, and my caliber changes from small rifle to large pistol takes 2.5 minutes to do everything. Some presses take 5-10 minutes just to swap priming sizes. It has been a while since I can remember a primer tipping sideways, and I'm pretty sure that was in a 223 case that I missed a primer crimp. Powder drops are just as precise through a Uniflow mounted on my progressive as that one in a standalone stand.
I also keep my Rock Chucker busy too with bolt action rifle, primer pocket swaging, and other odd jobs. I agree that if you're trying to do something like bump the shoulder on a rifle case a couple thousandths, that a single stage is better. But you can create great ammo on a progressive once everything is setup and locked down.
Quote from: Taterhead on March 24 2015 08:49:06 PM MDT
Quote from: Dieselman on March 24 2015 03:18:48 PM MDT
I got into reloading about three years ago. A family member gave me a hand me down reloading bench already set up with a RCBS Rockchucker complete with a PiggyBack II progressive kit installed. So I began reloading pistol rounds on the progressive. First thing I found was that the priming system was horrible! Like others have mentioned already, I would wind up with primers upside down or crushed into place sideways. I wouldn't know it until it spit out a completed round. I wound up purchasing a Lee hand primer and priming everything off the press.
Then when I got into loading my first rifle rounds, I found the progressive to be full of more shortcomings and wound up removing the PiggyBack II adaptor and using it as a single stage. I liked this so much that I ended purchasing another single stage press and reassembling the original one with the PiggyBack II setup so that I could choose to either go progressive or go single stage. Since then I have purchased another single stage press and have found that I use these two much more than I do the progressive. In fact the progressive doesn't get used much at all anymore unless I'm doing a large run of 9mm plinking ammo.
One of the driving reasons for doing so much of my reloading now on the single stage presses is control and quality. I have had nothing but difficulties keeping things consistent on the progressive Cartridge Overall Lengths and powder drops with certain powders was never as consistent as I would like it to be. For light target loads, that is ok, but for maximum loads or accuracy loads, the single stage works better.
My guess is that you may have a different experience if you were to work on a progressive press designed to be a progressive from the beginning. Being that the Piggyback is a bolt-on setup, I was wary of it not being what I wanted. I strongly considered it a while back.
My progressive is not commonly known, but I really enjoy it for pistol and 223 loading (I have the auto-index RCBS Pro 2000). APS priming is very reliable, the press is simple in design and very stout, and my caliber changes from small rifle to large pistol takes 2.5 minutes to do everything. Some presses take 5-10 minutes just to swap priming sizes. It has been a while since I can remember a primer tipping sideways, and I'm pretty sure that was in a 223 case that I missed a primer crimp. Powder drops are just as precise through a Uniflow mounted on my progressive as that one in a standalone stand.
I also keep my Rock Chucker busy too with bolt action rifle, primer pocket swaging, and other odd jobs. I agree that if you're trying to do something like bump the shoulder on a rifle case a couple thousandths, that a single stage is better. But you can create great ammo on a progressive once everything is setup and locked down.
I imagine you are probably correct about the dedicated progressives. The family member who was kind enough to give me this setup, (which I'm really greatful for, don't get me wrong) went with a dillon progressive as his replacement and it appears to work much better than the piggyback system. And in all honesty, the piggyback can be made to work well with a lot of patience and tinkering.
I learned on Hornady lock and load press. We are all biased by our experiences. I think if you skeptics had a dillon or hornady you would feel differently about progressive.
Yep. When a progressive press reliably works, it is a pretty nice too to work with. Pull the handle and a completed round drops into the bin. I even prefer to prep 223 brass on the progressive. I de-cap station 1, size in station 2, then M-die neck expand in station 4.. Auto-index makes it way faster than it is on the Rock Chucker.
There is a lot going on so one little hiccup could make the whole experience a bit aggravating. No doubt.