What can you push a 125, 158 to? Can this see 600+lbs?
Not even with +P ammo. It will break 400 with some loads.
Of course, Elmer Keith loaded it that hot in heavy revolvers like the 38/44, but that really isn't a 38 special load anymore, it is a 357 mag load in a 38 special case.
That's what I was wondering. How Magnum can you go?
It depends on the guns being used, there were plenty 38Spl that were "Air Weight" alloy frames for concealed carry.
Those may not hold up or be rated for +P ammo
Well here is the 180 grain load I use in the S&W Mod 10 2"BBL (add the barrel length)
Caliber – 38 Special
Powder-Blue Dot 8.0grs
Case – Mixed
Primer – CCI 500
RCBS 180gr Gas Check Silhouette (same amount of bullet inside the casing as the 165 gr cast)
COL – 1.5345" Sized .358"
Velocity – 950 – feet/per sec
360 ft/lbs
There are several loads that do go over the 400ft/lbs
Quote from: Intercooler on October 28 2014 08:18:54 PM MDT
What can you push a 125, 158 to? Can this see 600+lbs?
You can get 600# from a 20" rifle barrel, but not from a 2", 4", 6", or 8" revolver.
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The Elmer Keith load was 13.5 grains of then 2400 behind a 158 grain lead SWC loaded as long as possible. Some cast bullet companies make 158 grain SWC bullets with two crimp grooves for this purpose.
That is a load I would only shoot in either 357 mag guns, or a S&W 38/44 heavy duty revolvers. The Model 20 I think is one of them.
And, that is about as far as you can push a 38 special cartridge. Even then you are going to have gun specific ammo laying around that sooner or later some fool will stick in a 38 airweight making what is a 13 oz hand grenade.
Keith's load was a 173 grain SWC (Lyman 358429) over 13.5 grains of Herc 2400 for 12-1300+ fps depending on barrel length. His 173 grain bullet takes up less case volume than most 158 grain bullets and has a ballistic coefficient of .286. In my humble opinion it's the best all around 38 caliber bullet ever made and possibly the best cast handgun caliber bullet to this day.
Quote from: my_old_glock on October 29 2014 11:12:46 AM MDT
Quote from: Intercooler on October 28 2014 08:18:54 PM MDT
What can you push a 125, 158 to? Can this see 600+lbs?
You can get 600# from a 20" rifle barrel, but not from a 2", 4", 6", or 8" revolver.
How about my 15" Dan Wesson? ;D
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/Gandog56/SANY0122_zps0b36f7cd.jpg)
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600lbs muzzle energy is doable with a 4' revolver. Nice revolver by the way.
Quote from: wadcutter on November 13 2014 08:59:49 AM MST
600lbs muzzle energy is doable with a 4' revolver. Nice revolver by the way.
Not with a 38 casing loaded to 38 Special or +P specifications that I know of to be fired in 38Spl revolvers.
These are actual 38Spl +P loadings...tested in 6" barrels and actual 357Mag tested in 6" barrels
110 gr +P @ 1190 fps is 345 ft/lb to reach 600ft/lb it would need to be at 1568 fps 357 mag loads 1737
125 gr +P @ 1085 fps is 362 ft/lb to reach 600ft/lb it would need to be at 1471 fps 357 mag loads 1602
140 gr +P @ 1067 fps is 353 ft/lb to reach 600ft/lb it would need to be at 1390 fps 357 mag loads 1490
158 gr +P @ 1051 fps is 387 ft/lb to reach 600ft/lb it would need to be at 1308 fps 357 mag loads 1350
As shown with real tested data getting there with a 4" gun and inside of 38SPL +P NOT doable... sorry! :(
True, but in a 357 magnum revolver the 38 can achieve 600 lbs of muzzle energy no problem.
Quote from: wadcutter on November 13 2014 10:32:50 AM MST
True, but in a 357 magnum revolver the 38 can achieve 600 lbs of muzzle energy no problem.
But then it is not a .38spl anymore, it is a .357 Magnum. Basically, the .38spl case is not capable of holding enough powder to provide the velocity needed. It is like getting 10mm performance out of the .40SW.
You "Might" be able to squeeze enough performance out of a .38spl case in a single shot cut for the .357mag, but you would need to load that puppy to the point very little bullet was actually left in the case and then crimped to hold the pressure build up.
Many people do use the 38 casings loaded to 357 performance, but seat the bullets at 357 length.
Difference in casing lengths is only 0.135"
Therefore with proper powders and bullets crimped and seat to 357 specs can yield near the 357 specs.
Yup and the 44 special has a maximum oal of 1.615 compared to 1.610 of the 44 magnum. Theoretically it can be loaded to 44 Magnum ballistics. The only reason the 357 and 44 magnum cases are longer is to prevent chambering in 38 and 44 special firearms not strong enough to handle the much higher pressure. In a 10mm revolver the 40S&W case can be used to duplicate and even exceed 10mm loads with the bullets seated out to 10mm length. Some people actually prefer the 40 S&W cases because they use a small pistol primer and are supposedly stronger.
Wadcutter, I prefer to have the proper facts when stating specifics...the 44spl is listed as a 1.615" max, most load data is shown at 1.450"-1.460" with jacket bullets in the standard cannelure, while it is possible to load longer. I also show data for the 44 mag as long as 1.730" when the standard was 1.620" with the 240 grain jacketed ammo in the standard cannelure. My reason for making these post is simple;
SAFETY! Some cylinders and actions can be too short for bullets seated beyond the standard COL. or bullets that are longer than standard.
But the original poster asked a specific questions...
QuoteWhat can a .38 Special do?
QuoteWhat can you push a 125, 158 to?
QuoteCan this see 600+lbs?
We have shown what it takes to make the 600 ft/lb and it exceeds the standard 38spl+P loads.
People trying to make their cartridges into something that they were not meant to be can get themselves or bystanders hurt or injured and firearms damaged or ruined.
QuoteSome cylinders and actions can be too short for bullets seated beyond the standard COL. or bullets that are longer than standard.
That's why I said theoretically with the 44 special and didn't give out any load data. Of course you'd need bullets with the crimp groove in the correct location and a 44 magnum revolver. As for the 38 special load I made sure to state that it also only be used in a 357 Magnum revolver in which case the load given is completely safe and has been for decades.
QuoteWe have shown what it takes to make the 600 ft/lb and it exceeds the standard 38spl+P loads
The OP never mentioned anything about P +P or industry standards for the 38 Special. He wanted to know what the 38 Special can do and if it can make 600 ft/lbs of muzzle energy which it can and it can do it safely in a 357 magnum revolver which again I made sure to mention.
QuotePeople trying to make their cartridges into something that they were not meant to be can get themselves or bystanders hurt or injured and firearms damaged or ruined.
I don't know why you came to that conclusion , but I only use loads from reputable sources and never exceed max charge. I recommend everyone do the same.
It was my understanding that .38spl brass was thinner at the case head and not as strong as .357mag brass. At least, that was my Grandfather's explanation as to why he always bought .357mag brass and cut it down for use in his .38spl.
You might find this interesting pinscrew. Although the webbing is longer on the 357 case the webbing isn't any thicker.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWpgBy1wmKs
Yes, he does advise they are different manufacture of cases...clearly observed by the design in the base of the webbing.
(https://s20.postimg.org/kf2r6pawd/38_357crosssection_zps3b72cf96.jpg)
One thing that I know is, that the lesser bullet tension exerted but casing, as seated long, means lower velocities, this varies some for different powders, extreme spreads and standard deviations can be higher. This differences can be attributed to poor ignition and pressure development before the bullet clears the shorter casing. ::)
I know it works but...another thing to consider with magnum loadings is bullet jump under recoil, this can lock up the action of the revolver. The cure is tapping the offensive round back deep enough so that the cylinder will once again turn to swing out. Another issue is a squib/misfire because the powder didn't ignite or fully ignite, that could be because of light to no crimp and slower burning powders, with the primer pushing the bullet out of the casing and into the forcing cone or barrel. This also can lock up the action, or if the bullet is clear of the rotating cylinder, cycle to the next round. :o
If you ever had a squib load, did you bring the tools necessary to clear that while at the range? If you don't then your day is done, unless others have the necessary tools. If you drive for an hour or more to the range or waste your range time trying to clear the weapon safely, what have you saved? ???
Quote from: The_Shadow on November 15 2014 04:06:00 PM MST
If you ever had a squib load, did you bring the tools necessary to clear that while at the range? If you don't then your day is done, unless others have the necessary tools. If you drive for an hour or more to the range or waste your range time trying to clear the weapon safely, what have you saved? ???
I usually have a WWII rifle with me with a cleaning rod, so yeah, I do.