A friend of mind said a policeman friend of his claims that his dept. showed in controlled testing that some heavy clothing configurations (multiple heavy winter coats, etc) actually prevented some 45 acp round from penetrating into ballistic gelatin. This some like another "long" fictitious rumor started by someone wanting their name in lights to me.
My question is has anyone heard RELIABLY of any such thing?
Thanks,
Pat
Here's a .32 being stopped by a vest.
http://www.break.com/video/genius-tests-bulletproof-vest-with-friend-2423834 (http://www.break.com/video/genius-tests-bulletproof-vest-with-friend-2423834)
Please don't try this at home. That goose egg says it all!!!! :)) :)) :))
Greg
To steal a phrase from Mythbusters "Plausible"
There are some caveats though
It was during the FBI testing, and it had to do with a specific weight and velocity Hollowpoint bullet. The details of which I can not remember. The particular bullet failed repeatedly to penetrate the Winter Clothing testing. There were a number of calibers that had the problem.
I heard from a local leo that they left the .45 for the .40 for that reason, the 9mm also failed. It was something to do with dickies and north pole jackets I believe.
My guess is the 10mm would NOT be in that category!
In the leo's case he said he switched his personal carry from a 9mm to a 357 sig, he asked what I carried and I told him a 10mm he said he'd never heard of it we talked about it for a while and he said he would look into it. I also talked to a retired deputy who said he was issued a s&w 10mm in the 80's and the recoil was terrible.
Who was making 10mm in the 80's..
Quote from: 10mmfan on October 12 2014 06:21:49 PM MDT
In the leo's case he said he switched his personal carry from a 9mm to a 357 sig, he asked what I carried and I told him a 10mm he said he'd never heard of it we talked about it for a while and he said he would look into it. I also talked to a retired deputy who said he was issued a s&w 10mm in the 80's and the recoil was terrible.
Terrible recoil to some shooters might not be terrible to us.
Sound to me like someone misunderstanding the fact that heavy clothing can prevent expansion with certain bullet designs, especially at low velocity.
Raggedyman, the bullet failed to penetrate the clothing. I do recall it was a lightweight round, just not the weight specifically.
Never heard this one, so not able to weigh in on specific bullet design or weight question in the original post
However as to the here and now: I wouldn't have slightest pause about 45 acp 230 grain modern HST, Gold Dot, Ranger, PDX 1, etc. in personal defense scenario and range regardless of BG clothing (excluding bullet resisting material of course). If it'll run through 4 layers of heavy denim and still hit 12 to 18 inches of penetration in calibrated ballistic gel I wouldn't worry too much about heavy coat(s).
I have read on a few occasions that the M1 carbine round had failed to penetrate the Chicom's padded winter coats during the Korean War / Conflict. These US soldiers I believe were firing at distance though, and were supposedly not at typical handgun ranges.
Quote from: Aegis on October 12 2014 08:39:01 PM MDT
Who was making 10mm in the 80's..
Ammo or guns?
Ammo: Norma, and by the end of the decade Federal and I think Winchester.
Guns: Bren Ten, Delta Elite and S&W 10XX guns.
That is just off the top of my head.
Quote from: 4949shooter on October 13 2014 06:32:34 AM MDT
I have read on a few occasions that the M1 carbine round had failed to penetrate the Chicom's padded winter coats during the Korean War / Conflict. These US soldiers I believe were firing at distance though, and were supposedly not at typical handgun ranges.
I believe that this is a bunch of crap, too. Not the story, we've all heard it; I believe that a .30 carbine bullet has all the energy it needs to get through very thick clothing at 500m or more. Stories like these are probably the result of either the soldier not hitting the target or the enemy not falling like they do in the movies.
I don't believe for a second that any center fire load capable of cycling the action would be stopped by clothing. I'm not going to buy it no matter what the rationalization unless someone can show me a test where it happened.
Quote from: Raggedyman on October 13 2014 10:21:50 AM MDT
Quote from: 4949shooter on October 13 2014 06:32:34 AM MDT
I have read on a few occasions that the M1 carbine round had failed to penetrate the Chicom's padded winter coats during the Korean War / Conflict. These US soldiers I believe were firing at distance though, and were supposedly not at typical handgun ranges.
I believe that this is a bunch of crap, too. Not the story, we've all heard it; I believe that a .30 carbine bullet has all the energy it needs to get through very thick clothing at 500m or more. Stories like these are probably the result of either the soldier not hitting the target or the enemy not falling like they do in the movies.
I don't believe for a second that any center fire load capable of cycling the action would be stopped by clothing. I'm not going to buy it no matter what the rationalization unless someone can show me a test where it happened.
I agree
It is usually just an excuse that some people used because they couldn't hit their target. It is the same thing that is being claimed of the M16/M4 in Iraq and Afghanistan.
.
A thirty carbine would be pretty anemic at 500 meters. Running ballistics on a 110 grain FMJ with a muzzle velocity of 1990 fps, at 500 yards (457 meters) it is going 867 fps and carrying a whopping 183.91 ft-lb of energy.
I am not going to stand in front of one, but I also don't find it completely unbelievable that the right clothing might stop it.
The better question here is accuracy. And not just a soldiers skill. Hitting a man sized target at 500 M with a GI issue M1 Carbine carrying iron sights is pretty good shooting. General reports are to expect about 4MOA out of one at 100 yards. That puts you at a 20" circle at 500 yards best case, in the hands of a really, really good shot. Add to that the instability of transonic flight at about 250 yards and the skill of the average rifleman and hitting anything that far out is pretty iffy with a 30 carbine.
The .45 round not penetrating should be listed in the FBI penetration testing in the '80/'90's
The bullet drop alone from m1 .30 carbine would be about 225" or almost 19' at 500 yards.
It would be interesting to test the .30 carbine issue some day. Problem is, we don't have a 1950's Chicom coat to test it out with.
Raggedyman did an interesting soft point test of .30 cal fired out of M1. Also tnoutdoors9 did an interesting test with same rifle with soft point & fmj. Been awhile but think he fired from 25 yards and the fmj traversed 26" of calibrated block of semtest then 6" of sand in a large plastic tub used for back stop.
Don't know too much about 1950's vintage chicom winter wear but can't image it was too technologically advanced gear. Now I'm not sure how much knockdown power the round would have beyond 250 to 300 yards (and hell no, I don't want to stand in front of one to test it).
Would be interesting test if enough powder was reduced from a .30 round to simulate the velocity of projectile at several hundred yards then fired into a frozen coat for effect.
Lot of work test an a pretty dated rumor.
Back to the simple statement in the opening :'( , I for one would not hedge my life on that.
This question has popped up recently on a few sites. The best answer others posted is to look at:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-8-the-rags-o-truth/
The answer is, thick clothing won't stop the .45 ACP. May clog the hollow point cavity, but won't stop the bullet.
You'll be ventilated. :)
Myth.
Quote from: Pinsnscrews on October 12 2014 10:12:44 PM MDT
Raggedyman, the bullet failed to penetrate the clothing. I do recall it was a lightweight round, just not the weight specifically.
Probably a 185gr bullet. Just conjecture tho.
Quote from: sqlbullet on October 13 2014 02:22:23 PM MDT
A thirty carbine would be pretty anemic at 500 meters. Running ballistics on a 110 grain FMJ with a muzzle velocity of 1990 fps, at 500 yards (457 meters) it is going 867 fps and carrying a whopping 183.91 ft-lb of energy.
I am not going to stand in front of one, but I also don't find it completely unbelievable that the right clothing might stop it.
The better question here is accuracy. And not just a soldiers skill. Hitting a man sized target at 500 M with a GI issue M1 Carbine carrying iron sights is pretty good shooting. General reports are to expect about 4MOA out of one at 100 yards. That puts you at a 20" circle at 500 yards best case, in the hands of a really, really good shot. Add to that the instability of transonic flight at about 250 yards and the skill of the average rifleman and hitting anything that far out is pretty iffy with a 30 carbine.
The effective range of the M1 Carbine is/was 300 yards. The PPSH41 had an effective range of 150 yards. The only advantage the PPSH had was a 70 round drum magazine over the 30 round M1 Carbine magazine. If the 30 carbine wouldn't penetrate heavy clothing neither would the 7.62x25 Tokarev.
The M1 Garand was better than the SKS rifle. I think the Garand could be reloaded faster. I don't know of any other rifle used in Korea. Maybe the BAR.
.
I don't know about an SKS, but I can reload a Garand faster than a Mosin Nagant from stripper clips. Gotta assume the SKS is about the same.
Quote from: Bozz10mm on October 14 2014 07:08:08 AM MDT
Quote from: Pinsnscrews on October 12 2014 10:12:44 PM MDT
Raggedyman, the bullet failed to penetrate the clothing. I do recall it was a lightweight round, just not the weight specifically.
Probably a 185gr bullet. Just conjecture tho.
More like 100-150gr in an attempt for a High Velocity light recoiling round.
Even if it did not penetrate the clothing, would you still not get the impact from the bullet hitting you?
Much the same way the vest does not allow the bullet to penetrate but you still get the impact, but spread over a wider area.
I still believe that it would stop, if only temporaily, the bad guy.
Quote from: Retired LTC, USAR on October 20 2014 01:23:16 PM MDT
Even if it did not penetrate the clothing, would you still not get the impact from the bullet hitting you?
Much the same way the vest does not allow the bullet to penetrate but you still get the impact, but spread over a wider area.
I still believe that it would stop, if only temporaily, the bad guy.
Yes, but a 45 acp moving slow enough to be stopped by heavy clothing isn't moving very fast. It would be interesting to do some destructive testing on denim to see at what speed a typical defensive HP stopped penetrating clothing.
I would guess the "hit" wouldn't be that hard.
Quote from: sqlbullet on October 20 2014 04:57:50 PM MDT
[...]
I would guess the "hit" wouldn't be that hard.
If the clothing stops the bullet, the feeling of the "hit" depends mostly on momentum. The .45acp is slow and doesn't have much energy, but it does have a higher momentum than a 9mm or a .40S&W (because of the .45acp's very heavy 230gr bullet). Its momentum is less than a 10mm, however. The perceived "hit" of a .45acp would be more than most other handgun rounds, but a "hit" from a 10mm would be greater (and a 10mm is also much less likely to be stopped by clothing).
Quote from: Retired LTC, USAR on October 20 2014 01:23:16 PM MDT
Even if it did not penetrate the clothing, would you still not get the impact from the bullet hitting you?
Much the same way the vest does not allow the bullet to penetrate but you still get the impact, but spread over a wider area.
I still believe that it would stop, if only temporaily, the bad guy.
I would think a 45 slug to the chest, even while wearing a vest and from distance, would put a whallop on somebody. It might not them down or out for a few minutes.
Does firing a 45 ACP from a locked breech single shot gun knock you down, or out?
The laws of physics plainly dictate they you experience the same force as getting hit by a 45 slug when you fire a 45 slug.
Bullets are devastating because the concentrate that force into a very small area. In the case of a 45 that area is .16 square inches. The recoil energy is spread out across the web and palm of your hand. About 4-5 square inches or 30 times the area.
Threats are stopped by handguns due to interrupting the central nervous system or by exanguinating the target.
It the threat stops because of a non-penentrating hit, it was the flight part of the fight or flight instinct that stopped the fight.
Quote from: sqlbullet on October 21 2014 10:11:08 AM MDT
Does firing a 45 ACP from a locked breech single shot gun knock you down, or out?
The laws of physics plainly dictate they you experience the same force as getting hit by a 45 slug when you fire a 45 slug.
Bullets are devastating because the concentrate that force into a very small area. In the case of a 45 that area is .16 square inches. The recoil energy is spread out across the web and palm of your hand. About 4-5 square inches or 30 times the area.
Threats are stopped by handguns due to interrupting the central nervous system or by exanguinating the target.
It the threat stops because of a non-penentrating hit, it was the flight part of the fight or flight instinct that stopped the fight.
Very well said, but to put a finer point on it, bullets work because the force of launching the projectile is spread over a larger physical space
as well as a longer time interval than the impact. While it seems instantaneous from a human perspective, the acceleration of the projectile takes time, while the full measure of the energy is available for transfer at the moment of impact. Tissues yield to the passing bullet until the energy is completely spent.
Is sill maintain that any .45 bullet with a low enough mass and velocity to be stopped by clothing would also not have sufficient energy to cycle the slide. I believe that this is either a totally fabricated myth or some combination of miscommunication. My money is on someone being totally full of crap. It's really common in the firearm world for self proclaimed experts to just spout off about something they think might be the case. (stop snickering, I never claimed to be an expert ::) ) It's also possible that a lot of defective ammunition had this result but, like I said, I don't think it would even work the slide. Maybe some day, I'll load some light .45 bullets as light as I dare go and see just how many layers of clothing it takes to stop them.
Think about it this way...the concept of say a 125gr fragmenting .45ACP round at some rediculous velocity for a .45ACP of like 1300fps.
The round might actually "disintigrate" on impact. The heavy clothing actually would be credited for "stopping" the round from penetrating.
However, that round is still going to impart one hell of a lot of energy in a .45 inch point of impact.
By definition of the testing, the clothing prevented penetration, they just never said anything about the 4 broken ribs the impact left behind... :D
I have a coworker who carries a 5.7 and he said his gun is better than my 10mm because his can penetrate body armor. My response was your caliber may be able to but you can't have the ammo that's capable and my 10mm will still have you on the ground.
Quote from: 10mmfan on October 22 2014 08:22:08 PM MDT
I have a coworker who carries a 5.7 and he said his gun is better than my 10mm because his can penetrate body armor. My response was your caliber may be able to but you can't have the ammo that's capable and my 10mm will still have you on the ground.
Well...
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=448991084
If you are willing to take the possible legal risks in your jurisdiction, if any. (and have a wad of cash.)
Quote from: Pinsnscrews on October 22 2014 07:17:39 PM MDT
Think about it this way...the concept of say a 125gr fragmenting .45ACP round at some rediculous velocity for a .45ACP of like 1300fps.
The round might actually "disintigrate" on impact. The heavy clothing actually would be credited for "stopping" the round from penetrating.
However, that round is still going to impart one hell of a lot of energy in a .45 inch point of impact.
By definition of the testing, the clothing prevented penetration, they just never said anything about the 4 broken ribs the impact left behind... :D
I tested something like that:
Quote from: sqlbullet on October 23 2014 08:23:15 AM MDT
Quote from: 10mmfan on October 22 2014 08:22:08 PM MDT
I have a coworker who carries a 5.7 and he said his gun is better than my 10mm because his can penetrate body armor. My response was your caliber may be able to but you can't have the ammo that's capable and my 10mm will still have you on the ground.
Well...
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=448991084
If you are willing to take the possible legal risks in your jurisdiction, if any. (and have a wad of cash.)
Pretty sure you can also hand load ammo that will punch a IIIA vest, if that's important to you. Still unimpressive in tissue.
Back when Double Tap made ammo that met specs, I bought hundreds of rounds of their .45 ACP 200 gr. Gold Dot ammo, rated at 1125 ft/s (562 ft-lb).
That will probably penetrate cloth. The .45 ACP is a good self-defense round and is my backup rig to 10mm.
Tell me what result you want and I'll design a study to prove that result. This seems to be the common denominator in government and pay to play studies.
Quote from: Buckeye 50 on October 12 2014 09:05:19 AM MDT
A friend of mind said a policeman friend of his claims that his dept. showed in controlled testing that some heavy clothing configurations (multiple heavy winter coats, etc) actually prevented some 45 acp round from penetrating into ballistic gelatin. This some like another "long" fictitious rumor started by someone wanting their name in lights to me.
My question is has anyone heard RELIABLY of any such thing?
Thanks,
Pat
Well, you could stack up a lot of winter coats to get the result you want. Or down load the ammo to get the result you want. Any modern design, standard, .45 ammo would be a good choice against any normally dressed human, winter or summer wear. So would any of the standard duty calibers.
Sounds like a department switched calibers and wanted to convince the officers that it was the right thing to do by "controlling" a test to show how week the other ammo is.
Quote from: Raggedyman on October 23 2014 11:19:09 AM MDT
Quote from: Pinsnscrews on October 22 2014 07:17:39 PM MDT
Think about it this way...the concept of say a 125gr fragmenting .45ACP round at some rediculous velocity for a .45ACP of like 1300fps.
The round might actually "disintigrate" on impact. The heavy clothing actually would be credited for "stopping" the round from penetrating.
However, that round is still going to impart one hell of a lot of energy in a .45 inch point of impact.
By definition of the testing, the clothing prevented penetration, they just never said anything about the 4 broken ribs the impact left behind... :D
I tested something like that:
That is still 60gr higher than the suggested round ;-) There was a round that came out the same time as the Glaser Safety Slug, a Light Weight, High Velocity, Fragmenting round, I thought it was about 125gr in the .45acp. It left the market rather quickly. But since that was before the internet, I don't have reliable data on it. It might have been from Aguilar.