Will this work or will they have yet another shoot out and more testing? :o
http://concealednation.org/2014/10/fbi-decides-on-9mm-as-their-1-choice-and-have-tons-of-science-behind-their-decision/ (http://concealednation.org/2014/10/fbi-decides-on-9mm-as-their-1-choice-and-have-tons-of-science-behind-their-decision/)
Certainly in the Miami shootout loads of the day proved ineffective, though the agents ability to fire it accurately under fire was pretty good. They got hits, the hits just didn't incapacitate the aggressors.
If they had been carrying modern +p 9mm ammo, they would have been better. Certainly 40S&W or full power 10mm auto would have done the job with much less agent carnage. Full house 10mm would not have failed to reach vital organs.
But, the big unknown is would they have been as successful at hitting their targets?
I don't begrudge them going to the 9mm. I personally think a great standard would be 10mm with a variety of loads, from 1100 fps 165 gr at the weak end up to 1200 fps 220 grain at the top end. Then, let them shoot them all in qualification and be approved for the one that met a standard for speed and accuracy.
But, that creates logistics problems.
And at the same time the military is wanting to go away from 9mm. Yeah, I know, by Geneva Convention they have to use FMJ ammo so it changes the requirements. For some reason I don't buy into their wear on firearms argument. I doubt handguns make up a significant part of the FBI's yearly budget. Easier for 'all' to shoot and a smaller frame are valid along with improved bullets. Still, they'll reassess in five years or so...it's the government way.
Well, either the "modern" 9mm is far ahead of the 1980's version, or the FBI is going in circles.
I'd be perfectly comfortable carrying a nine loaded with Federal 9BPLE +P+
:))
Their new study contradicts their old study that showed specifically that different rounds had different capabilities, which is why they had selected 10mm.
This smells of budget cuts and agents that can't shoot.
Perhaps there will be a lot of surplus .40 ammo cheap!
Guys, this is really UNscientific, but it is just hard for me to believe that even a marginally placed shot in a strong 10mm load of Gold Dots or XTP's (copper hollow points, etc.) is not going to do better than a 9 or 40 landing in the same location?? I am not trying to "dis" these calibers but the 10 in strong loads is well, a real "load."
Pat
As a hunter, I can say without a doubt this "study" is preposterous. I have hunted deer with various handguns, and have been there when others have taken deer, bear, and wild boar with everything from 9mm to .500 S&W. Obviously a .454, .44 or .500 are not really what we are talking about so I'll exclude them. 9mm and .45acp were the two that performed the worst, more often than not needing multiple shots especially on bear. On deer those two rounds would do the job but the deer would run much farther than deer shot with 10mm, .357 or .40. On bear and boar, I wouldn't ever use anything less than .40 s&w. A navy friend of mine had to put 8 shots of 9mm into a small 275 pound black bear. My Witness 10mm dropped a 350 pound bear in Washington with one shot. He ran 50 yards and fell over. These are actual, living animals, not some ballistic gel "study."
I use 10mm for a reason. I've seen it used on real flesh and bone. Hunting medium sized game is the closest one can get to how a bullet will perform against a human adversary. Without moving into magnum calibers, 10mm simply does the job cleaner and better.
I put this out there, like I did before...Law Enforcement has a duty, to bring perps to justice. In the eyes of the law, if a perp is killed, then the justice system doesn't have a chance to work as designed. They also have force in numbers, as a scene unfolds, (something that we don't have in our own self defense).
Law enforcement, also works in close quarters at times, around other officers, and bystanders. In the performance of their duties, if someone get shot by accident it becomes a public relations nightmare and drives up the cost of liability insurances. The lawyers will be crawling in and out each case to show what was lawful or some wrong doing! With cameras everywhere as in recent events, they need to be within the guidelines of operations.
While they choose the 9mm for their sidearm, you can bet they will have other firearms for SHTF situations.
Modern 9mm ammo can be loaded to various pressure ratings;
The SAAMI pressure limit for the 9×19mm Parabellum is set at 241.32 MPa (35,001 psi) piezo pressure.
The SAAMI pressure limit for the 9×19 mm Parabellum +P is set at 265.45 MPa (38,500 psi) piezo pressure.
The service pressure Pmax of the 9 mm NATO is rated at 252 MPa (36,500 psi) which is above the SAAMI max.
There is no SAAMI pressure value for the +P+ ammo but it is said to be at 42,000 psi.
Knowing what the FBI did with 10mm I wonder how long before we'll be seeing 9mm Lite? :))
I think this is the right choice.
I used the 45 Colt in the Army and loved it.
But the Army is not the police, I started on the job with the 9 and I thought it was weak. The advantage of the 9 is that anyone can fire it, cheap to maintain and most important, the double tap.
I shot yesterday with my nine, and I still practice my double tap and I am within the 10 and 9 zones in the target. When I went to the 10 the first shot is a 10, but I wandered out to the 8 and 7 zones. (15 yards)
Thats when liability occurs. Killing a bad guy is not worth killing a civilian by accident.
Quote from: Wolfie on October 10 2014 09:03:10 AM MDT
I used the 45 Colt in the Army and loved it.
Wow...How old are you. The Army stopped using the 45 Colt in 1892, though they did resurrect it in the Philippines in about 1900.
Colt 45 ACP
Quote from: harrygunner on October 08 2014 06:06:22 PM MDT
Well, either the "modern" 9mm is far ahead of the 1980's version, or the FBI is going in circles.
An editorial by a former Speer employee discussed the changes Speer and other manufacturers had to make with regards to 9mm ammo in the late 80's to Early 90's to accommodate the European Spec guns. American 9mm was cast small, and loaded light compared to what the Eurospec guns were chambered for. When the LEO departments started getting in all the Eurospec guns that were tested using Eurospec bullets, FTF/FTE problems rapidly arose. The Engineers at Speer had to react quickly to figure out what the problem was. They basically "Invented" +P on the spot to meet the Eurospec guns needs. They also had to up the bullet size roughly .002 to get the rounds to match the barrel groove diameters compared to American Spec 9mm guns.
So in short, Yes, the 9mm of the Miami Shootout was not the same as the 9mm we have today. It was interesting to note how the author commented that the SAAMI ratings for 9mm have shifted over the years to meet the Eurospec 9mm as a Standard Load. He never discussed actual pressure ratings, but implied that American loadings of the '80s fell well short of current SAAMI ratings.
Here is the CIP spec sheet:
http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/uploads/tdcc/tab-iv/tabivcal-en-page28.pdf
It calls out groove diameter of 9.02mm (.3551") and a bore of 8.82mm (.3472").
It also specs a pressure of 2350 Bar which is 34083.87 PSI. This is actually lower than SAAMI.
Question would be what 1980's spec ammo was loaded to pressure wise. I don't have any idea how we would validate that. Anyone got a couple boxes of ammo laying around from 1985?
I should have regrabbed the article to quote from
Shooting Times: May 2013 "Ballistician's Notebook: 9mm Luger Revolution" by Allan Jones
QuoteA typical 115-grain load would make the nominal velocity of about 1,125 to 1,150fps at well under the 9mm's maximum average pressure (MAP) of 35,000psi; it was common for those loads to run about 26,000 psi. The 124-grain pressures ran a little higher, but seldom more than 30,000 psi. Adding to the problem was the selection of non canister propellants. When the 9mm Luger cartridge was a low-volume (and expensive) product, it was not economically feasible for many factories to inventory special propellants for it. Most 9mm Luger ammo was loaded with propellants that also worked well in the .38 Special.
This is what I get for trying to quote things I read months ago without double checking.
Back when I was studying the +P+ ammo of Underwood and trying to get a fix on the powder Kevin was using I was researching various 9mm pressures and velocities. This was what led to finding SAAMI. CIP and NATO pressures for the cartridge.
Here is a link to Military specs; http://www.ar15.com/content/webPDF/TM43-0001-27.pdf (http://www.ar15.com/content/webPDF/TM43-0001-27.pdf)
In section 12 9mm
QuoteUse:
Modified M3 Submachine Gun or commercial weapons.
(The use in M9 Pistol is not authorized.) The cartridge is
intended for use against personnel.
NOTE
Mid case pressures normally run
8000 to 10,000 psi higher than case
mouth pressure.
Mid case pressure ...................... 38,500 psi (avg),
43,000 psi (max)
Velocity ..................................... 1125 + 90 fps,
QuoteNOTE
M882 ammunition can be used in the
following nonstandard weapons:
Pistol Submachine Guns
HK P7 series (GE) HK MP5 (GE)
Walther P38 (GE) HK MP5SD (GE)
FN P35 (BE) IMI Uzi (IS)
Baretta M12 (IT)
FFV M45/45B (SW)
Madsen M50 (DE)
CZ M23 (CZ)
Sten MK II (UK)
Sterling 12A3 (UK)
Performance:
Case mouth pressure ........................31,175 psi (avg),
36,250 psi (max)
Velocity ............................................1263 ± 5 fps, 15 ft
from muzzle
QuoteDescription:
HIGH PRESSURE TEST Cartridge. The cartridge is
identified by a tinned cartridge case and high pressure
test head stamp.
Performance:
Chamber pressure ............................50,000 psi
Velocity............................................. NA
I have run my cast bullets at 0.3560" for my 9mm stuff, but many have said they have better potential at 0.3570"
I have shot 0.357" bullet from my 357Sig and 9x25Dillon barrels.
Slug your 9mm barrels and go .002-.003 over bore diameter is a good cast lead sizing. Unless you have really shallow rifling grooves of course.
Guess it's time for me to get rid of the 9mm Silvertips I've had since the 80's.
Quote from: Bozz10mm on October 14 2014 07:16:42 AM MDT
Guess it's time for me to get rid of the 9mm Silvertips I've had since the 80's.
Lets pull and test em! We can get to the bottom of the question about 1980's 9mm ammo.
The Silvertips were great bulles but Winchester was one of those companies that formulated a batch of powder (proprietary non canister) to whatever they were loading at the time. However there are so many good powders out on the market today that could bring the performance up to new levels of +P and +P+ while staying inside the pressure parameters...
Then you have to consider the working parameters of performance, like how the projectile acts at various velocities and media types as balanced out by the charge weight of a particular powder for the application. Things like low flash, consistent ignition properties and burn characteristics that are clean and today that includes things like lead free primers.
Many bullets of the time period had exposed lead base cores, this includes the Black Talons and many others and they are less desirable by most of todays contracts.
Maybe they should screen their FBI cadets better. I mean if one can barely shoot a 9mm then it's time to call Houston because we have a problem. All this talk about specific types of ammo and pressures do to agents not able to shoot hotter stuff is nuts. Our agents should be able to handle more effective ammo or cartridges if you want to be an agent. Maybe those that have issues should be behind a desk. Our agents should be armed with the most effective cartridge and load available.
IIRC, even desk Agents must be able to meet qualifying at the range.
No, I think it is the Alighty Dollar that is the influencing factor here. 9mm has become so popular and the rounds have progressed so much over what they had during Miami that they really can save a buck and have good quality ammo today. I am also wondering if there is a change going in throughout all of the Federal Branches of Investigation and Defense to consolidate into a single caliber across the board. The FBI does all the legwork and gets all the press, but the other divisions have to follow suit sort of thinking.
This may explain some things about the FBI's selection and choice of ammo
http://10mm-firearms.com/general-discussion/new-speer-9mm-gold-dot-g2/#new (http://10mm-firearms.com/general-discussion/new-speer-9mm-gold-dot-g2/#new)
From the article "To Much Excessive Wear" Really.
First the 10mm was to much so they switched to 40S&W. Now that has proved to be to much. On to the 9mm. A couple of years hence and the 9mm will be to much. We are now looking for high cap semi autos in 22RF short.
It's not that .40 s&w is too much. The 9mm ammo has gotten so much better that the previous gains the .40 may have given them have been deminished. Now they have two very similarly performing rounds to choose from in pistols of the exact same size but one of them provides higher ammo capacity.
My issued gun is 9mm and for a law enforcement setting, given the choice I would choose it over a .40.
I keep hearing this.
I have always thought, and continue to think that the advantage of the 40 S&W over the 9MM is .045" diameter and a higher volume to diameter ratio of case capacity. These mathematical values are fixed and not subject to dispute.
Any advantage claimed by one camp over the other is the result of engineering expertise applied to the cartridge in the arena of internal and terminal ballistics. Such advantages will go back and forth. Currently, the 9mm is on the up swing as it appears several manufacturers have applied significant resources to boosting the capabilities of the 9mm.
And while the current factory offerings look really good, the same engineering expertise could be leveraged to make the 40 perform better. Because it is bigger and has more case volume. It will therefore always have more capability than the 9mm. Except for making .355 holes in stuff.
I will add that I am NOT a 9mm hater. Have owned in the past, and have shopped a number of 9mm guns lately, most commonly BHP's.
Good point, I would say this. Given the fixed capability the .40 will always have over the 9mm applying bullet technology equally to both, I would take the extra couples rounds you get in a 9mm. Again this is in a law enforcement setting.
Yep....the FBI is going back to the 9. Thoughts? I think they will be well served by it. I do believe that most importantly hits count, and the 9mm is easier for many of today's new police recruits to shoot. I have seen this all over, and they aren't hiring boys off the farm anymore. There are many smaller statured recruits, males and females, who came into law enforcement not knowing how to shoot.
I do believe the 9mm, especially in its +p version, is sufficient for large city PD's and agencies like the FBI. For rural departments, like sheriff's offices and state patrol agencies, I would prefer/recommend the .40 or .357 Sig for the ability to penetrate auto body material and glass.
But that's just me..
38s, 9mm and 12 gauge are poor matches against a determined attacker with a rifle. Miami and North Hollywood proved that.
All handguns are a bad choice against a rifle
There is the old tale of the Texas Ranger at a dinner party. The host notices his sidearm and exclaims "Sir, are you expecting trouble?".
He replies with a Texas drawl "Ma'am, if I were expecting trouble I would have brought my rifle."
That is exactly right,,,, having been a peace officer in Texas, our preference if we were knowingly getting into a confrontation was a shotgun or a rifle,,,, most all of the Rangers carried spare bullets for their rifles in their belts...
I go along with 445 SuperMag. If perspective agents cannot handle a pistol outside a 9mm,maybe it's just not meant to be a agent. I have seen petite built officers easily pass with .45's. Utter nonsense.
Quote from: The_Shadow on October 10 2014 07:51:19 AM MDT
While they choose the 9mm for their sidearm, you can bet they will have other firearms for SHTF situations.
+1
The 9mm will only be for everyday carry. It won't be used for tactical situations like busting in doors. All things considered, they made the right decision to go with the 9mm.
.
Quote from: pacapcop on December 10 2014 02:10:46 PM MST
I go along with 445 SuperMag. If perspective agents cannot handle a pistol outside a 9mm,maybe it's just not meant to be a agent. I have seen petite built officers easily pass with .45's. Utter nonsense.
Well, until the FBI or any other law enforcement agency makes shooting their #1 priority, a 9mm is going to be easier to train their employees on. Plus, there is the benefit of being easier with a lighter recoiling weapon to fire with your weak hand, etc.
When I went into AFOSI, we carried modifed WWII 1911's. The slide & barrel were shortened to commander length. The grip was shortened to officer's model length. I loved it as I grew up with a WWII 1911. Our training was excellent with many hours of dry firing, malfunction & reload drills in a classroom. It was lengthy as most were not gun people & many if not most had not fired anything but an M16 in basic, ROTC, OTS, or at the AF Academy. The lengthy training brought everyone up to a very proficient level as far as rapid clearing of malfunctions & very rapid reloads. However, accuracy was another issue. A lot were never very good with that platform.
A few years later we transitioned to the Baretta. I missed my 1911 & would have prefered to keep carrying it. However, almost everyone's accuracy increased particulary with those with less experience.
For any agency that does not have a particular tactical duty, 9mm is definitely the most efficient way to go. Only those tactical units are going to have the training time to make sure that everyone is proficient at the level they deem necessary. Even then, it is still quicker & cheaper (both in training hours & material) to get them to that level.
Funny, cuz the ammo looks like garbage:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZvkZRsVOMc
Yeesh, that was weak. These are some of the worst performing bullets he's ever tested... But that's possibly just because the clear gel isn't quite as representative as the standard porcine gel. I have a hard time believing that Speer would put out a product that would perform this poorly. Maybe it was a production error that will be caught and changed quickly.
I agree about the clear gel, but it also didn't do well in his SIMTEST stuff. HST and gen 1 Gold Dots always ace those tests...
I forget where I read it, but somebody claims to have done barrier tests with the G2 as well, he said it didn't expand whatsoever through the barriers.
What the heck is going on?