Hi I hope I don't sound too dumb, but I don't reload yet. I've watched a bunch of Youtube videos of Underwood and other powerful factory loads, and there is always jacket separation. When I do start hand loading, I will want near nuclear 180-200 grain hollow points for concealed carry and the nightstand. Are there any hollow points that hold up?
Quote from: Da/Sa Fan on September 23 2014 03:48:08 PM MDT
Hi I hope I don't sound too dumb, but I don't reload yet. I've watched a bunch of Youtube videos of Underwood and other powerful factory loads, and there is always jacket separation. When I do start hand loading, I will want near nuclear 180-200 grain hollow points for concealed carry and the nightstand. Are there any hollow points that hold up?
First of all I will figure you are taking about 10mm hollow points because you posted this in the 10mm reloading section.
#1) I do not know if there are any 180-200gr hollow points in 10mm that will not separate the core from the jacket when using full power loads
#2) It is my opinion that if you hit someone with a full power 10mm round and the jacket separates from the core it will make little difference in whether or not the threat stops.
#3) You might want to try re-sized 41 magnum bullets. --- > http://10mm-firearms.com/reloading-10mm-ammo/41-magnum-bullets-in-a-10mm/
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Best bet IMHO is HOrnady XTP or Nosler 200 grain JHP.
Based on testing I have seen, the Nosler stands up to 1100 fps fine, 1300 fps not so much.
But to safely get a 200 grain pill to 1300 fps in 10mm you need a 6" barrel, not the norm for carry.
So, what barrel length are you going to be using for defense. Glock 29, you are fine. Witness Hunter, might wanna download a bit, or live with a bullet that hand grenades 8-10" inside a soft target.
The Hornady 200 grain will be a deep penetrator and will work nicely at 1200 fps.
However if you want a bullet that is bonded and will hold together, you will want the Gold Dot line from Speer. They will hold together the best, and also provide big expansion in 180 grain oe 165 grain from the 10mm if you can find some to buy.
Good luck and best regards!
I'm thinking either a standard Witness or an Elite Match for CC, properly sprung and possibly with a Sprinco kit. ( probably a small 9mm for warm weather). I should have thought of Gold Dots! I forgot that Underwood tests that I saw may have used something else. Is there any such animal as a hardcast hollow point? If there is, might that hold up better than a jacketed bullet with full power loads?
Hello Sa/da Fan & welcome!!! I think you will find this forum one of the best for straight and honest answers. You're looking for a good HP for your concealed carry, for personal defense. For myself I take it very seriously.first I wouldnt use handholds, various reasons,, do some reading of Masaad Ayoob, this will explain. Others may disagree, and that is fine. Now the main thing is in your state of residence you may be compelled to account for every round fired in your defense. In my case for nightstand, I would want the light bullet at speed, nuclear But no heavier than 150gr. I know that will incapacitate, or if you hit the fatal T it will terminate immediately. However I live in a urban area, if I would miss, I could hopefully rest in the knowledge that the speed and low sectional density of the bullet, would keep the bullet lodged in my house or at least stop lodged in my neighbors siding. This would be my choice based on my housing environment, underwood nuclear in a 135-155 hollow point. This would be my load for street carry, again large city with a lot of houses, kids, shopping etc. now if I lived 2 miles from town or especially the country, I would use the 180 hp or even the 200 gr WFN bear tooth cast bullet, the latter would be great for a farm(ette)-woods load. Personally in hp's I love Gold Dots first then Nosler.
Yes, there are cast lead hp's one(forgot where I saw it) that actually opens up a is supposed be devastating. I have used plated hp's but I would compare them to the Hornady HAP bullet.
I hope this helps you out, maybe the more experienced people like former LE or even any lawyers on this site can give specific advice on ROG acceptable by the state you live in.
Kind regards & Gods blessings,,,,,Todd
Lyman made the Devastator mold. Shadow has one. You can also get other molds. I have an NOE mold that is a convertible. 200 grain WFN or 180 grain HP depending on the pins I put in it.
Hardcast hollow-point.....To be honest that is kinda an oxymoron. Hardcast lead bullets are meant to NOT expand. That is their purpose. They are cast from hard alloys of lead, with a broad metplat and usually a sharp shoulder. The broad metplat creates terminal shock and soft tissue disruption and the shoulder cuts nice sharp holes. The combination of the two means rapid exanguination. In hunting that means a good blood trail to follow. In self-defense threats are stopped either by CNS disruption or blood loss.
A hard cast hollow point bullet driven to a good velocity would likely "grenade" in soft tissue, shedding the nose in a bunch of fragments and, depending on the design of the bullet, leave a core that would drive deep. If the hollow cavity were deep enough, there may not really be a core left to drive deep.
Cast bullets made from medium to medium soft alloys with higher tin content versus antimony are quite malleable. These are ideal for hollow point molds. The alloy will hold together very well as the tin adds strength without making the alloy brittle. They will expand to perfect mushrooms and penetrate nicely.
As toddxusmc mentions, Massad Ayoob and others have expressed reservations about carrying handloads for defense. They present well reasoned arguments that merit consideration. They center around the prosecution painting you as a blood-thirsty killer who sits up late at night in the basement concocting extra-lethal loads that your are just itching to use.
What is lacking, as far as I have found is a case where the defendant was adequately represented where ammunition was at issue. I do believe Mr/ Ayoob has one case he has cited, but even he agrees the defendant was horribly represented. I think he may have even gotten a second trial due to the horrible representation. Even a barely competent defense attorney should be able to produce a rather complete roster of well qualified expert witnesses to defeat such an argument. But, if the circumstances of your shooting are questionable at all, it could be a factor that lead the jury towards a conviction.
At present my carry load is Buffalo Bore 180 grain HP. The cases are marked starline brass. Shadow has done a pull-down on this load. Pretty sure it was Longshot, though it might have been BE96 in light of recent developments. I could go look, but am lazy. Point is, since I reload in starline brass, and my proof of purchase is long gone, and I stock longshot and power pistol and will stock BE96 as soon as I see some, and I stock 180 grain HP's, how would I prove I wasn't carrying handloads? Or how would they prove I was?
Likewise, what if you had older Underwood ammo, before us had the UW headstamp? Not to mention the fact that UW is well known for being the hottest of the hot. Could an equally zealous prosecutor not make a big deal out of the fact that you spent hours on the internet watching ballistics gelatin videos, and bought the very hottest 10mm loads available from any commercial producer of ammo, even though there were warnings about that they were too hot for some 10mm guns, and many reports of kabooms from the ammo.
If you want to insulate yourself from that type of prosecution, then you better track down some Federal FBI load 180 grain HP's. And maybe only carry a 1076.
The simple truth is you can't insulate yourself from this type of prosecution. Take a look at this:
http://www.secondcalldefense.org/self-defense-news/9-ways-your-firearm-can-be-attacked-court
On the other hand:
http://www.guns.com/2012/02/20/the-case-for-carrying-handloads-for-personal-defense/
Todd, I agree that Masaad Ayoob is an excellent trainer both in tactics and legal defense. If I ever am ever a defendant in a shooting, I want him on the stand on my side. But I think he missed the boat on this one.
QuoteToo boot, I am not aware of any actual cases where a shooter was convicted solely for using hand loaded ammunition in the shooting. The only case I ever heard of anything really coming close to a "handload" argument was a case where a woman shot herself in a suicide attempt and the husband was in trouble for loading light handloads that threw off the test for gun shot residue (GSR) and just looked fishy. In the end though, once his handloads were tested, the GSR told the tale and the case was settled.
This is an inaccurate statement, there were multiple appeals involved. There were also a lot of mitigating factors involved that had nothing to do with the use of hand loads. For one was the incomplete powder and ballistics data for the PD crime lab, something that would not happen today.
The reality is, if the best they can come up with for your "guilt" in a self defense case is that you used "hand loads", the chances of conviction are very close to nil, but remember, this is the same type of justice system that "gave" a woman $500,000 (final award after appeal from the initial award of $2.9mil) for getting burned on hot coffee from the drive thru at a McDonalds. ANYTHING can happen. Just keep in mind, if you really are that worried about what you are using for self defense, just find out what load your local PD is issuing its officers and use that type of load. That way you can say "It is what the PD use" when asked why you chose it.
I apologize, didn't want to start any controversy. I know I do go too indepth on things. The question was on hollow points and I explained my choices and why. Every forum has a nightstand situation, thus my input. I pray none of you ever have to experience confrontation to that level. The first second of sound is deafening, then it's auditory shutdown, as your mind speeds up so fast everything you see is in slow motion, adrenal dump makes you sick, and you may piss yourself. The Smell of the event will stay with you forever. You will panic and shake in the aftermath, your thoughts will be racing. Then you'll be taken in for your side of things, exhausted. Asked the same thing in different ways, over the course of hours. Anyway a few know how the rest goes. Always defend yourself, train yourself well. Be thankful for the right to have it PRAY you never ever have to use it.
No controversy. You have the right to decide if you want to carry handloads or factory. BOTH will actually get the job done. I prefer handloads because I can practice with the exact same load without breaking the bank.
Now, my wife is strongly opinioned, and feels that if we are not loading what the police are loading, we will be in more trouble :P I showed her what the Hornady Critical Duty look like, and will use the brass to reload Hornady XTP's ;-)
Quote from: Pinsnscrews on September 27 2014 03:16:34 PM MDTBOTH will actually get the job done. I prefer handloads because I can practice with the exact same load without breaking the bank.
This happens to be yet another reason for the Pull-Down sections...duplicating what is being sold, so we can practice and build more proficiency. ;)
ToddXUSMC,
I don't want you to feel either picked on or that your comments are EVER unwelcome. If you have and opinion that is supported by rational argument and/or evidence, I wanna hear it. This was just such a case.
Just cause we don't agree doesn't mean we can't have a productive civil discourse about a topic. And both be enriched in the process. The Socratic method is an excellent method of discovering better answers to hard questions.
Your response was apropos and spot on. I am glad you are here and encourage you to stir up controversy as often as you want.
Thanks for the kind sentiments SQ, however I don't feel intimidated or picked on,nothing like that. maybe when I was 17 &my senior drill instructor came up to me I was maybe a little intimidated. What I was getting at is I don't want anything to go sideways over anything I say. I'm honored to be with you On this forum,you guys have a lot of class. Before I found you,,even though I shoot a Kimber stainless target to II was studying the 10 mm threads on Glock talk. On GT and some other threads I saw people go ballistic over the stupidest statements. So now I'm off topic I'll bring it back around I really like gold dots that's one hell of a hollow point and second is nosler, good performance low price. Kind regards everybody,, Todd
No worries ToddXUSMC, this seems to be a bit of a classier group of people from other forums I have signed on to and never went back too.
I just paid right around $30 for 100 180gr Golddots, around $21 for a pound of Longshot (when it was available, just paid $24 for a pound of 800x) and am using my own range brass...Reloading doesn't have to take up a lot of space, but boy, can it sure save you money in the long run...I just finished loading up 350 plinking rounds yesterday ;D 180gr Plated HPs from Rainier (500rnd box $65) still using that same pound of Longshot (down to about 1/4 pound), primers at $35 for 1000 and used brass.
This has been a Public Service Announcement from the Reloaders Bandwagon, Please Feel free to jump on board!
If I put all 15rds of 10mm in an intruder in my house - does that make me an extremist?????
Doug
Maybe I should start this as another topic????
Quote from: ShadeTreeVTX on September 30 2014 07:19:25 PM MDT
If I put all 15rds of 10mm in an intruder in my house - does that make me an extremist?????
Doug
Maybe I should start this as another topic????
"Your Honor, I thought he was on PCP with the way he kept flopping...I was in fear for my life, I kept pulling the trigger until it wouldn't shoot anymore, then my wife picked it up from where I dropped it, put in a fresh magazine and unloaded it too! She thought he was a zombie"
Makes you and your family survivors! ;D
You shoot until you can tell the threat has subsided. The fact your rounds kept hitting the CNS and making the body jerk just lead you to believe he wasn't finished attacking you yet.
Quote from: Pinsnscrews on September 26 2014 04:44:32 PM MDT
The reality is, if the best they can come up with for your "guilt" in a self defense case is that you used "hand loads", the chances of conviction are very close to nil, but remember, this is the same type of justice system that "gave" a woman $500,000 (final award after appeal from the initial award of $2.9mil) for getting burned on hot coffee from the drive thru at a McDonalds. ANYTHING can happen. Just keep in mind, if you really are that worried about what you are using for self defense, just find out what load your local PD is issuing its officers and use that type of load. That way you can say "It is what the PD use" when asked why you chose it.
I have been on a jury. I would not want to be judged by one. Most are idiots who couldn't figure a way out of jury duty, or are on welfare, or are in a union that pays they full wages for their time.
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