I wanted to see if resized .41 magnum bullets could be used in a 10mm cartridge. The reason is because a 41 magnum bullet is designed for higher velocities than 40S&W bullets, and they are available in heavier weights than regular 10mm/40S&W. I also have 3 bullet molds in 41 magnum. I do not remember what powder I used. Velocities are low, but oddly these felt like what I thought a 10mm should feel like. The regular 10mm 1200fps 155 XTP felt like a 40S&W. I used a Lee .401 bullet sizer. The only thing to note was that the bases of the resized bullet were not flat or even. They were slightly irregular because of the lead being forced from the sides to the base during resizing. This defect would probably reduce accuracy to some degree, but I doubt it would make a significant difference in a normal off the shelf gun. Remington makes jacketed soft point .41 magnum bullet that (I think) would be great for bear defense.
Picture below shows (from left to right):
1) Lee 210gr TL-SWC
2) Remington JHP
3) Lyman 215gr SWC
4) Lee 195gr SWC
5) Hornady 155 XTP (for size comparison)
I had to use 40S&W brass because I didn't have any 10mm brass.
Unsized bullets shown on top. Resized bullets in case. You can see the bands became longer after resizing.
(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1362/13695381/24585439/410045745.jpg)
Target distance was 10 yards. Gun shot from a bench/bag rest.
I only had 3 of the LEE 195 SWC to shoot. All others were 6 shots.
(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1362/13695381/24585439/410045741.jpg)
(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1362/13695381/24585439/410045740.jpg)
Thanks for the report. Very nicely done! 8)
I'd be willing to bet they would be more accurate if loaded in the 10mm cases...
What and how much powder were in your loads?
Quote from: The_Shadow on September 17 2014 12:16:06 PM MDT
Thanks for the report. Very nicely done! 8)
I'd be willing to bet they would be more accurate if loaded in the 10mm cases...
What and how much powder were in your loads?
I do not remember which powder I used, or how much. I know they were all loaded with the same powder. I saved one to disassemble, so I should be able to find the powder weight at least.
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You could avoid the issue of the base deforming if you used a nose punch and pushed through the lee die base first. Might have to rigg it a little to get a nose punch set up, but should work. I used to run my 175 grain SWC through base first with just the flat punch.
.40 cal cases will not work in any of my 10mm guns. At least I think they wouldn't. Also, how do you even chamber a bullet with a diameter of .410" in a .400" chamber?
Quote from: gandog56 on September 24 2014 08:04:34 AM MDT
.40 cal cases will not work in any of my 10mm guns. At least I think they wouldn't. Also, how do you even chamber a bullet with a diameter of .410" in a .400" chamber?
As he said in his original post, he runs the bullet through a .401" bullet sizing die. So he ends up with a .401 diameter bullet that is the same size as any cast bullet. Reduce 10% and work up.
Quote from: gandog56 on September 24 2014 08:04:34 AM MDT
.40 cal cases will not work in any of my 10mm guns. At least I think they wouldn't.
As a test, I ran a box of 40sw thru my glock 20 all stock.... works fine. But I don't think its a good idea on a reg basis as the 40sw is held by the extractor I believe. Easy to get a 40 barrel.
The thing about the 10mm auto design is, they set the OAL at 1.2500" - 1.2600". This was done to keep the grip shorter, in relation to the magazine well and magazine as a whole. More to fit as many hands as possible.
The 41 Mag bullets being resized, still allows for the heavier weight bullets, but the OAL places more bullet inside the casing.
The Wide Flat Nose configuration in 200gr, 220gr, 230gr, was an attempt to have as much bullet weight up front in the effort to allow more space for the powder inside the casing without increasing the pressures drastically.
What was being noticed though was the wide nose increased the length of the tipping angle and jams occurred in some firearms. Then some makers started to shorten the OAL to about the 1.2420" for reliable function, that increased the pressures and then powder charge weights were reduced to compensate.
Just as the FMJ and TMJ is the most compact design for the 10mm, they made the Hollow Points, which made the bullets longer in equal weights which take up the space for the powder.
The 10mm guys have played with the fudge factor of the OAL's, trying for the optimum maximum performance. The best thing to happen was newer powders that provided safer performance and pressures.
When you look at the 9mm, 45ACP and the 40S&W OAL's the bullets are sticking out further buy their design. allowing the use of more powder in the space of the respective cartridges.
It is funny...I have one 10mm gun that is sensitive to this. My Para P16.
And it doesn't have to do with the OAL as much as how far past the case mouth but bullet body extends. SWC designs have to be loaded with the shoulder right at the case mouth, maybe .050" beyond max. That translates to COAL of 1.250" max or jam-o-matic.
But my 205 grain mountain mold can be loaded all the way to 1.260+". As long as it fits the magazine, it feed fine. But the ogive on that bullet starts right at the case mouth. Hollowpoint bullet designs vary from mfg. to mfg on what will/won't work seated out to 1.260".
sqlbullet, It may just be that the leade to the rifling is shorter/tighter at the start where the end of chamber cut starts on out to the rifling. Increasing the leade should help your bullets work better at the longer length.
This is from the 38Super Net and illustrates the issue you maybe experiencing.
(http://38super.net/Smart%20Figures/chamberfitwebsite.jpg)
Another is tipping angle that I was referring to in the previous post.
(http://38super.net/Images/timing.jpg)
The info can be found here: http://38super.net/Pages/Overall%20Length.html (http://38super.net/Pages/Overall%20Length.html)
Nope. Mine is definitely a tipping point issue. When it stops, it is exactly at figure B above. And a slight tap to the slide gets it "over the hump"
This thread is intriguing to me ... carry on ..... :popcorn:
Quote from: my_old_glock on September 17 2014 03:35:52 PM MDT
Quote from: The_Shadow on September 17 2014 12:16:06 PM MDT
Thanks for the report. Very nicely done! 8)
I'd be willing to bet they would be more accurate if loaded in the 10mm cases...
What and how much powder were in your loads?
I do not remember which powder I used, or how much. I know they were all loaded with the same powder. I saved one to disassemble, so I should be able to find the powder weight at least.
.
I finally got around to disassembling one round and weighing the powder. It was 4.50gr measured, and 4.75gr calculated.
I plugged the weight into Quickloads software, but couldn't find a powder that would give me the 1160fps I had measured with the chronograph. The fastest powders I have (Solo1000, Red Dot, Tite-Group) don't give me 1160 fps. The powder I used was dark gray to almost black round disks/flakes. I thought it was AA#5 or AA#7, but those are ball/sphere shaped. I looked through the powders I have and the powder looks like either Unique or 800X. AT 4.75 grains of Unique the case volume is filled 110% with powder.
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Did you have a picture of the pull down powder?
Quote from: The_Shadow on November 17 2014 03:19:15 PM MST
Did you have a picture of the pull down powder?
I threw it out.
I am going to try the test again with real 10mm brass. I will keep track of what powder I use this time.
.
Interesting considering I have thousands of cast .41 mag bullets in the basement but all of my .41 mags have new homes. Might have to play with this some.
I want to see the 210 mag xtp loaded in a 10mm!
That would be sweet!
I have downsized many cast bullets from 41 to 40 when I was working up loads for my friends 10MM MAG revolver , even some 255 gr cast that I downsized to 40 and shot in my STI 10MM at 900 fps.
Also some Sierra 41- 170 gr JHP and Nosler 41- 210 gr JHP to 40, usually they shoot very well.
I go from .410"-.406"-.401".
Sean
I have some 41 mag Remington 210 grain jacketed soft point bullets I will test next week. These will be fired in a 10mm case, not a 40S&W case.
Specs:
COAL = 1.250"
Diagonal Length = ~1.290" These will work in my Glock 20 magazines.
Lee Factory Crimp Die = 1 turn. I had to do this because the Ogive of the bullet ended inside the case.
Brass case = SIG Elite
Powders I will use:
7.4gr Power Pistol
9.6gr Accurate Arms #7
9.3gr Blue Dot
(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1362/13695381/24585439/411807205.jpg)
I like the idea of the JSP. It has the ability to mushroom, and cause more damage (but not as much as a hollowpoint). The bullet is shorter than hollowpoint allowing for more case volume and powder for a given weight bullet which gives higher velocities. I think this bullet would make a good bear bullet. Unfortunately Remington no longer makes this bullet as far as I know.
I will try to find some water jugs and fire at least one bullet into them to see how it expands.
.
Quote from: mag360 on April 18 2015 11:48:40 PM MDT
I want to see the 210 mag xtp loaded in a 10mm!
I have some 210gr XTP, but I won't be able to test them until maybe January.
I don't think they would be much different than the 200gr XTP (#40060) for 10mm.
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Will be looking forward to your results, the balance between powder space and bullet weight and pressure becomes a challenge to yield the most performance with a working load. LongShot, IMR800X and Blue Dot would be my choices to play with...Although AA#7 should work well too.
Not having pressure measuring barrels makes things even tougher, trying to rely on primers and case expansion alone. ???
Below are the targets. I only shot 5 rounds of each load. I included 5 rounds of SIG Elite 180 FMJ as a reference for accuracy. If you shoot SIG Elite as accurate as me, than the other loads will give you similar accuracy. If your accuracy is better or worse, the other rounds will be better or worse also. Black dots are 1" diameter.
(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1362/13695381/24585439/411848312.jpg)
(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1362/13695381/24585439/411848311.jpg)
Temperature was around 35* Fahrenheit, so the velocities are lower than summer temps.
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I bought the Lee (.41 mag) TL410-210-SWC for the sole purpose of casting some heavy bullets that I could resize to 10mm. After going through the resizer, they don't have much in the way of the tumble lube grooves left in them, but that's OK as far as I'm concerned since I'm powdercoating them anyway. Mine average around 216 gr with the 50:50 WW:Pb alloy I'm using. This is supposedly the same weight that the Underwood 220s end up weighing. The SWC pretty much becomes a WFN after resizing, but they feed in my G20, G29, and RIA 10mm without a problem.
Originally, I tried resizing a 240 gr .44 mag bullet to .41 mag and then to 10mm, but I ended up losing so much lead in the process that it wasn't really any heavier than when I started out with this .41 mag bullet.
I also use .40SW brass at 10mm OAL and pressure and have not had a problem with it in either the Glocks or the RIA M1911.
(http://www.monkeywrench.space/navy-vet-1959/images/lee-tl410-210-swc-resized-10mm-loaded-320w.jpg)
Quote from: NavyVet1959 on November 10 2015 02:44:31 PM MST
I also use .40SW brass at 10mm OAL and pressure and have not had a problem with it in either the Glocks or the RIA M1911.
The only reason I would think to do that is .40 cal brass cheaper and easier to acquire, but doesn't your 10mm headspace on the case's rim? It seems to me that would be a very BAD idea. Also the normal recipes are expecting the capacity of a 10mm case. You will NOT get the stated pressures of a 10mm round.
Quote from: gandog56 on November 22 2015 08:19:31 AM MST
Quote from: NavyVet1959 on November 10 2015 02:44:31 PM MST
I also use .40SW brass at 10mm OAL and pressure and have not had a problem with it in either the Glocks or the RIA M1911.
The only reason I would think to do that is .40 cal brass cheaper and easier to acquire, but doesn't your 10mm headspace on the case's rim? It seems to me that would be a very BAD idea. Also the normal recipes are expecting the capacity of a 10mm case. You will NOT get the stated pressures of a 10mm round.
The 10mm, as with most all straight-walled semi-auto calibers, have an essentially irrelevant head space, as the extractor will pull the case head to the breach, regardless of case mouth engagement and/or trim length. Case capacity doesn't change, as the bullets are seated (as stated) to the same length as would be in 10mm brass. Pressure IS reduced, for two reasons. First, is the additional throat volume, due to the shorter case mouth engagement. Second, is less case neck tension, simply because the neck is shorter. There may also be a reduction in chamber gas seal, but unless excessive blow-back gas is evident, it's probably insignificant. Realistically, these should be limited to target round use. While there should be no safety concerns in a modern, healthy pistol, reliability may be questionable in SD or tactical conditions.
A serious concern may be mixing and matching not in your control. If you are a "social" shooter, meaning you often shoot during gatherings with friends, it is possible one of these ".40 nukes" could chambered in a friend's .40 pistol. They shouldn't chamber, due to the bullet length, but they could in some limited conditions. Due caution should negate this, but Murphy is not your friend at the range.
As to the economics, 10mm brass is infinitely more costly than .40SW brass in most cases. I have a few thousand usable 10mm brass. I have in the neighborhood of 100,000 (could be double that, I haven't counted) usable .40SW brass, and it's easy, and most often free, to collect. 10mm, not so much.
reduced case neck tension could cause a set-back issue.
These are some I cast from the 10mm RCBS 200 SWC TC mold they run 207-209 before lube, They cycle very well in my guns at 1.2550" COAL and I size at 0.4015", while they don't have quite as large a MEPLAT the slight SWC can cut some nice holes at 0.400"... :D
(http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/Speer200_10mm.jpg)
Pictures like that make me wanna cook some lead rather than turkey this week.
I just saw that Swift has a 41 caliber A-Frame bullet that's suppose to expand from 950 fps. Its a 210 grain bullet, wish they had a 230~250 grain one but think this would work well on hogs !
[attachment deleted by admin]
Quote from: Harleycolt on November 25 2015 04:25:13 PM MST
I just saw that Swift has a 41 caliber A-Frame bullet that's suppose to expand from 950 fps. Its a 210 grain bullet, wish they had a 230~250 grain one but think this would work well on hogs !
$54 a box :o, and I couldn't find whether it was 50 or 100 pieces per box.
Definitely not for plinking.
I think these would need to be used in gun with at least a 6" barrel. Something like a Glock 40 or a S&W revolver.
.
Quote from: my_old_glock on January 26 2016 10:07:45 AM MST
I think these would need to be used in gun with at least a 6" barrel. Something like a Glock 40 or a S&W revolver.
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Well, that would mean either my Fusion Firearms longslide, or my Mechtech CCU......think I would use the Mechtech!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/Gandog56/MechTech_zpsjrxvavah.jpg)
I loaded up some (10) Hornady 210 grain XTP .41 magnum bullets in 10mm (SIG) cases with 7.3 grains of Alliant BE-86. I estimated velocity from my Glock 20 will be 1050 to 1100 fps. I won't be able to test these until the end of April. I also may not have a chronograph, so I will just be testing for function, feel, and accuracy. I may test one in a jug of water to see if the G20 gives enough velocity to expand the bullet. Hornady claims this bullet should be used from 800 to 1600 fps.
Sig Sauer 10mm brass - 3x fired
7.3 grains BE-86
Hornady #41000 210gr XTP sized to 0.402dia.
CCI large magnum primer
COAL 1.250"-1.253"
Lee FCD 1/2 turn.
Chronoed from a stock Glock 20 @ 1060fps
(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1362/13695381/24585439/412359408.jpg)
(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1362/13695381/24585439/412175975.jpg)
Please enlighten me as to this interesting concept..I got a.bunch of 41 mag 210 g copper semi- jacketed hps..can these be sized? And if so, are you guys using the Lee 401 sizer die? I know it works on cast but will it work on copper jackets aw well??
Quote from: will965 on April 03 2016 04:14:20 PM MDT
Please enlighten me as to this interesting concept..I got a.bunch of 41 mag 210 g copper semi- jacketed hps..can these be sized? And if so, are you guys using the Lee 401 sizer die? I know it works on cast but will it work on copper jackets aw well??
Yes it works on copper jacketed bullets, but it may not work on thin "electro-plated" bullets.
I use 2 Lee sizing dies. I have one that sizes to .405-.406, than the standard one of .401. I use to use just the .401, but it is real hard to resize down 0.010 in one shot. I coat the bullets with Hornady case lube before resizing them.
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Excellent, thank you...looks like I'm gonna give midway USA a call
Mid-South Shooters had them in stock and cheaper, 50 in a box.
Got my Lee resizing die today! just stuffed it in the Hornady Lock N Load classic single stage, took me a second to figure it out but instead of the liquid Alox they gave me I used the one shot Hornady Case Lube went through perfectly went from .408 to .400 this is phenomenal very happy! I got a big batch of new 210g semi jacketed hollow-point bullets for the 10 millimeter Beast. Thanks a lot guys!!!
Putting this here for reference.
Lee 410-195-SWC sized to .402
BE-86 7.5 grains
1.255" COAL
3/4 turn LFCD
1,115 fps average from stock Glock 20
Lee 410-195-SWC sized to .402
Power Pistol 8.0 grains
1.255" COAL
3/4 turn LFCD
1,165 fps average from stock Glock 20
Remington .410 210grain JSP sized to .402
10.0 grains Accurate Arms #9
1.250" COAL
3/4 turn LFCD
Lost the chrono data
(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1362/13695381/24585439/412388616.jpg)
(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1362/13695381/24585439/412459033.jpg)
(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1362/13695381/24585439/412459032.jpg)
my_old_glock, here is my forecast for the loads you show...
Your cast bullets 195 gr with BE-86 probably @ 1150 1160 fps
Your cast bullets 195 gr with Power Pistol probably @ 1170 1200 fps
Your Remington bullets 210 gr with AA#9 probably @ 1000 fps
I only use Longshot in my 10s, I gotta branch out a bit maybe ::)
Quote from: The_Shadow on April 12 2016 10:50:55 AM MDT
my_old_glock, here is my forecast for the loads you show...
Your cast bullets 195 gr with BE-86 probably @ 1150 1160 fps
Your cast bullets 195 gr with Power Pistol probably @ 1170 1200 fps
Your Remington bullets 210 gr with AA#9 probably @ 1000 fps
Do you think those are light, acceptable or hot loads?
Looking at Underwood's offerings, they seem between light and acceptable.
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I think they will be fine as loaded...On the lighter side with power Pistol being above medium
I was able to run a few more tests this weekend using .41 caliber bullets in the 10mm.
Hornady 210 grain XTP #41000
8.0 grains BE-86
1.255" COAL
3/4 turn Lee Factory Crimp Die
CCI 0012 Large Pistol Primers
Chronographed from a stock Glock 20 = ~1093fps
Power Factor = 230
Bullet retained weight from left to right is 199gr, 200gr, 206gr
(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1362/13695381/24585439/412774787.jpg)
(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1362/13695381/24585439/412774785.jpg)
(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1362/13695381/24585439/412774928.jpg)
Hornady 210 grain Cl-SIL #4105 (Truncated Cone Jacket)
7.7 grains BE-6
1.255"COAL
3/4 trun LFCD
Chronographed from a stock Glock 20 = ~1100fps
Power Factor = 231
(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1362/13695381/24585439/412774783.jpg)
Lee 195 grain .41 SWC (#90330) Hard Ball Lead
8.0 grains BE-86
1.255" COAL
3/4 trun LFCD
Chronographed from a stock Glock 20 = ~1185fps
power factor = 231
(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1362/13695381/24585439/412774784.jpg)
The Hornady 210gr XTP went through two 12" boxes of water, and were found in the 3rd box. Penetration would be over 24" in water.
I had some old waterbed tubes filled with water that were 5 feet long and about 7" in diameter. The 210 grain CL-SIL wend through the full length. I could not find the bullet. I didn't water test the LEE 195 grain bullets. I tried to test the factory SIG 180 grain FMJ for penetration, but the bullet came out the side of the tube about 30" in. I did not have another tube with me to test the depth of the FMJ SIG 10mm round.
(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1362/13695381/24585439/412774829.jpg)
(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1362/13695381/24585439/412774826.jpg)
*********************************************************************************
I wanted to compare my Glock 20 10mm with a 2" barreled 41 magnum revolver. I took some chornograph readings with my friend's S&W Night Guard 6 shot revolver, and a 6" S&W Model 57.
Winchester 175 grain SilverTip (.41 Mag)
2" barrel = 1045 fps. This is weak ammo. I think the 10mm 175gr SilverTip has the same velocity.
6" barrel = 1225 fps.
Remington Factory 210 grain Jacketed Soft Point
2" barrel = 1176 fps
6" barrel = 1335 fps
The Remington 210 grain load was brutal in the 2" Night Guard. I could not see anyone shooting all six rounds at a charging bear. My opinion is that these Remington loads are useless in a short barreled light weight .41 magnum revolver. The steel Model 57 was better.
******************************************************************************
The Glock 20 can hold 10 rounds (in California), and up to 17 rounds with a +2 extension if you live in a free State.
Both the 2" S&W Night Guard and the Glock 20 are very close in size, with the Revolver being wider.
I think the G20 10mm is a better option over the 41 magnum for large animal defense.
(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1362/13695381/24585439/412774977.jpg)
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Very interesting results! 8)
What type of sizer are you using to resize the 41 cal to 40 cal?
Quote from: The_Shadow on September 13 2016 02:01:02 PM MDT
Very interesting results! 8)
What type of sizer are you using to resize the 41 cal to 40 cal?
I am using two LEE sizers. I first size to ~0.4055, then to 0.401
.
Thanks for the update on the sizers!
;D
This thread excites me!!
I noticed that some of my brass had a ring/crease around the base. The mark is not around the entire base. It is about 120 degrees around the base or 1/3. I did not mark the brass, so I don't know if it happened with the XTP or CL-SIL bullets, or both.
(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1362/13695381/24585439/412782338.jpg)
(http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1362/13695381/24585439/412782337.jpg)
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That almost looks like a sizing die ring, Some have had that happen with Hornady Dies and some with LEE
Push through sizing will dress that up.
Has anyone done this with the 210 gr 41 magnum Gold Dot? RMR has some and I'm considering buying some to run in 10mm and 40 Super.
I haven't done it with those specific bullets, but it will work just fine.