Hi, new member and first post. First a brief introduction. Many, many years back I had a Colt Delta Elite, a couple of the Smith and Wesson autos, and 2 of the Smith and Wesson 610 revolvers( I wish I still had the 610's!). I currently have 3 10mm pistols, a Wilson Tactical Elite and 2 Dan Wesson Razorbacks.
I've been wanting to add a new 10mm format pistol, something different than a 1911 based pistol. For the past month I have been pouring through the info on this site and am getting close to making a decision, but I need a little help. A Glock is out of the question as I have medium sized hands and the grip frame on the large frame Glocks are just too big for me to get a decent grip. So with that in mind I am thinking of trying one of the EAA 10mm pistols.
My concerns/questions are below. I know that most, if not all of these have been addressed previously, but a little nudge may get me to take the leap:
1. As mentioned above, I have medium size hands. A 1911 fits me just perfect, the large framed Glock is too big. I will not be able to handle one before I order it, so I am just a little concerned about the grip size.
2. There are many, many different EAA models, and hope for some guidance. My budget is up to $1200.00, could go over it if I need to. I want a full size pistol, not a compact. Other than just looks, is there any real advantages of the higher priced models over the lower priced ones?
3. After reading the many sub forums, it seems that EAA customer support is dismal at best, is this correct or over stated?
4. Are the better magazines(as mentioned in many posts), and other parts if needed readily available?
5. Have you found a good gunsmith that is knowledgeable with the EAA line?
I hope that I did not wear you out with my first post, and I do appreciate any insight that you can offer.
Yes highly recommend. My 1911 10mm is a RIA. have 2
Witness matches. I would buy elite limited ( think that's the model ) the one with full dust over and magwell if I had 1200 to spend.
I have the Limited Pro, and its a thumbs up from me.
Look through the models.
Differences between models include:
Single vs double action
full dust cover vs partial
barrel lengths and styles
some minor sight differences.
As far as grip compared to a Glock, there is no comparison. The Witness line (full size) fits most hands very well.
I cannot give any info on service, other than what others have said. Mine hasn't left my possession yet.
Greg
Coltitis, welcome to the forum! The upper end EAA's are the better models like the Match, Limited & Hunter, they would serve you well in the 10mm caliber. Just be sure of the action as some are single action and double action. There are some suggested mods that can help such as the recoil rod and springs for the system...
Good luck and best regards! :D
1. Night and day difference. The CZ style grip is one of the best ever and well known.
2. I think your money is best spent going with a Match on up to a Hunter or Limited versus the lower models.
3. It's better these days, but does still have issues.
4. Parts are available to do just about anything.
5. Their are some out there although most people DIY. They aren't very hard to work on, change parts, etc... and tons of videos exist on how to work them.
For a budget range gun, really hard to beat the Witness Elite Match. Love mine. Dead nuts reliable, laser accurate.
If you think you ever might wanna carry, I would look hard at the Elite Stock. Slightly shorter barrel than the match, and a DA/SA action vs SA only.
All they guys here that have gone with any EAA gun model that starts with Elite have been happy.
Thank you everyone for your help and suggestions. After reading your suggestions I double checked what features etc. that I was wanting. Well I just placed an order for a LTD Pro which should be in my hands next Wednesday or Thursday.
While waiting to receive the LTD Pro I would like to go ahead and order anything that will I will need to be range ready. So please bear with the new guy as I have a couple more questions:
1. I plan on shooting rounds from mild up through the full power range. With this in mind what, if any, aftermarket parts do I need to get? And where do I get them from?
2. If I understand correctly I need to get some of the K10 mags with the black follower. Can you suggest a some good sources for these?
Anything else than you can suggest will be greatly appreciated.
I have a Limited Pro too. Call Henning up and order a flat bottom firing pin retaining block, cone guide rod and a 20lb spring. All you will ever need to make it last forever.
Quote from: Intercooler on September 05 2014 11:31:00 AM MDT
I have a Limited Pro too. Call Henning up and order a flat bottom firing pin retaining block, cone guide rod and a 20lb spring. All you will ever need to make it last forever.
Thank you for the info. I prematurely hit the post button before I was done with my post, so I have gone back and edited it.
Can you give me Henning's contact info?
You should get 1 or 2 K10's with your pistol. I would then look to Ebay and Gunbroker or Midway USA for spares.
Henning
(720) 999-6512
Quote from: Intercooler on September 05 2014 11:56:09 AM MDT
You should get 1 or 2 K10's with your pistol. I would then look to Ebay and Gunbroker or Midway USA for spares.
Henning
(720) 999-6512
Thanks Intercooler
Quote from: Coltitis on September 04 2014 05:55:18 PM MDT1. As mentioned above, I have medium size hands. A 1911 fits me just perfect, the large framed Glock is too big. I will not be able to handle one before I order it, so I am just a little concerned about the grip size.
The grip in the Witness Hunter is excellent, especially if you're comfortable with the 1911. My hands are average and I find the Hunter extremely comfortable, with sharp checkering on the standard walnut grips and both front and back straps.
Quote2. There are many, many different EAA models, and hope for some guidance. My budget is up to $1200.00, could go over it if I need to. I want a full size pistol, not a compact. Other than just looks, is there any real advantages of the higher priced models over the lower priced ones?
The Hunter is right at $1,200.
Quote3. After reading the many sub forums, it seems that EAA customer support is dismal at best, is this correct or over stated?
I contacted them once to get a replacement retainer pin for the guide rod assembly ( a $0.75 part), and they immediately sent me a new, complete guide rod assembly with no questions.
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Quote4. Are the better magazines(as mentioned in many posts), and other parts if needed readily available?
I have purchased magazines and a recoil spring or two from Midway.
Quote5. Have you found a good gunsmith that is knowledgeable with the EAA line?
I have not looked for one, but I believe there are a few out there who specialize in Tanfoglio.
The Hunter is the only Tanfoglio weapon I've owned. It's an all-steel double-stack firearm that I'd say is as close to being a 1911 as you can get without being a 1911, with a single action trigger that is 'pretty good'. It is goofy in appearance, and aftermarket trigger levers are available to tighten up the lateral play the stock trigger has. This has never been a factor in my shooting, it's an aesthetic thing I'd like to have 'fixed'.
Overall, it is extremely well-fitted, well-finished and is, to me, a bargain at $1,200. I have had challenges with the adjustable rear sight staying tight, and I'm not aware of any major manufacturers who make replacement sights for it (although there very well could be). I find it very accurate despite that challenge, and a real pleasure to hold and shoot. It is, to me, the model for how all 1911 frames should be built for the 10mm--a double-stack that is barely wider than a standard 1911 (about 1/8" thicker, tops).
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x150/Bongo_Boy/EAA%20Witness%20Hunter/Hunter070301_zpsc23f1b11.jpg) (http://s182.photobucket.com/user/Bongo_Boy/media/EAA%20Witness%20Hunter/Hunter070301_zpsc23f1b11.jpg.html)
Love my Hunter! I fixed my rear sight by getting the elevation perfect making note of the screw position and turns. Take it out and apply some Red Loctite, install it back toe same location and let sit for a couple of days. It has held perfectly through some nasty rounds!
Bongo Boy - Thank you for your detailed post. Yesterday I ordered a LTD Pro, but it was a toss up between that and the Hunter.
Update - Yesterday I picked up the Limited Pro. I wanted to take it to the range yesterday but the 101 degree temperature was a bit more than I wanted to endure. It came with one magazine but I had ordered three additional magazines and they came in the mail yesterday too. Per Intercooler's suggestion I have the following parts coming from Henning; a flat bottom firing pin retaining block, cone guide rod and a 20lb spring. While talking to Mr. Henning he mentioned that he was working on a couple of different sizes of brass shock buffs, so I will be trying them too.
Following are some of my observations, keep in mind that this is my first CZ type pistol:
1. I have medium sized hands and the pistol feels very nice in my hand. My little finger doesn't wrap around as much as I would like, so I will need to see what other options are available. From my brief research I see that aluminum grip panels are available. Any recommendations would be appreciated.
2. While inserting or removing the magazines there is a lot of drag present, I had to apply a bit of pressure to insert or remove two of them. I removed the grip panels and could see that the inside of the top edge of the mag well was rubbing the sides of the magazines. I could clearly see where the edges was scrapping off the finish from the sides of the magazines. The edges a pretty sharp so I will do a little polishing to break the edge. The magazines do not drop free after suppressing the magazine release, must be pulled out.
3. Field stripping is very simple and straight forward.
4. The safety works fine, but does not exhibit the "snap" that I am used too. Not mushy, just does not click/snap. I'm a 1911 fan, so this just is something that I will have to get used to.
5. The sights are good and the elevation and windage screws click into place with a loud audible "CLICK".
Overall I am very impressed with this pistol. With todays 20 degree drop in temperature I am very tempted to head out to the range with it. I should wait until the parts from Hennings arrive, but man I want to shoot this thing. I plan on shortening the ejector as per Intercooler's suggestion, but will shoot it prior to that modification so that I will have a baseline to work with.
(http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp195/FiveBullets9-/DSCN5571_zps449280c9.jpg) (http://s411.photobucket.com/user/FiveBullets9-/media/DSCN5571_zps449280c9.jpg.html)
I have noticed what you describe with the safety too. Way more positive than my BHP was, but far less than my para's. Works fine though.
Very interesting! You have the right parts and with them in place, I doubt you will need the buffs. They may actually cause a malfunction every so often if you try them. Can you take a picture of your grip panels? They must be a new design or something! Here is my Pro NIB with the factory Walnut grips. Never had a mag touching issue with any of them:
(http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff100/Intercooler2/20130628_155718_zps5047881a.jpg)
The Xtreme grip panels are the thinnest out there and what I have on my Pro:
http://10mm-firearms.com/gunsmithing/new-xtreme-grip-panels-for-the-limited-pro/msg29183/#msg29183
Some people don't like how thin they are, but it sounds like you will. You can put your factory pieces on Brian Enos and someone will buy them to offset the Xtremes.
Quote from: Coltitis on September 11 2014 12:08:30 PM MDT
2. While inserting or removing the magazines there is a lot of drag present, I had to apply a bit of pressure to insert or remove two of them. I removed the grip panels and could see that the inside of the top edge of the mag well was rubbing the sides of the magazines. I could clearly see where the edges was scrapping off the finish from the sides of the magazines. The edges a pretty sharp so I will do a little polishing to break the edge. The magazines do not drop free after suppressing the magazine release, must be pulled out.
Sounds like from this it is rubbing the frame, not the grips. Seems odd to me. You could try removing the interefence with a file. Perhaps post up a pic here?
Fingers are crossed someone didn't pull a fast one swapping some other grip panels on there.
If you ever need parts or Gunsmithing for your Tanfoglio:
http://www.jandlgunsmithing.com/category-s/1837.htm?searching=Y&sort=13&cat=1837&show=10&page=2
They have many of Henning's pieces on there as well.
Quote from: sqlbullet on September 11 2014 12:18:38 PM MDT
I have noticed what you describe with the safety too. Way more positive than my BHP was, but far less than my para's. Works fine though.
Thanks sqlbullet. This tells me that my safety is normal for this type of pistol.
Quote from: Intercooler on September 11 2014 01:11:02 PM MDT
Very interesting! You have the right parts and with them in place, I doubt you will need the buffs. They may actually cause a malfunction every so often if you try them. Can you take a picture of your grip panels? They must be a new design or something! Here is my Pro NIB with the factory Walnut grips. Never had a mag touching issue with any of them:
The Xtreme grip panels are the thinnest out there and what I have on my Pro:
http://10mm-firearms.com/gunsmithing/new-xtreme-grip-panels-for-the-limited-pro/msg29183/#msg29183
Some people don't like how thin they are, but it sounds like you will. You can put your factory pieces on Brian Enos and someone will buy them to offset the Xtremes.
Those are the type of panels that would probably work for me too. Here's a picture of my panels. The lighting makes them look lighter than they actually are. They look like a medium to dark walnut.
(http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp195/FiveBullets9-/DSCN5572_zps2532a0ff.jpg) (http://s411.photobucket.com/user/FiveBullets9-/media/DSCN5572_zps2532a0ff.jpg.html)
Quote from: sqlbullet on September 11 2014 01:15:15 PM MDT
Quote from: Coltitis on September 11 2014 12:08:30 PM MDT
2. While inserting or removing the magazines there is a lot of drag present, I had to apply a bit of pressure to insert or remove two of them. I removed the grip panels and could see that the inside of the top edge of the mag well was rubbing the sides of the magazines. I could clearly see where the edges was scrapping off the finish from the sides of the magazines. The edges a pretty sharp so I will do a little polishing to break the edge. The magazines do not drop free after suppressing the magazine release, must be pulled out.
Sounds like from this it is rubbing the frame, not the grips. Seems odd to me. You could try removing the interefence with a file. Perhaps post up a pic here?
Yes the magazines are rubbing against the frame. I need to find my small needle files which seem to be hiding somewhere. Here's a picture showing where the rubbing is occurring. This want take five minutes to file if I could just find those files.
(http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp195/FiveBullets9-/DSCN5574b_zps0b48c0d1.jpg) (http://s411.photobucket.com/user/FiveBullets9-/media/DSCN5574b_zps0b48c0d1.jpg.html)
Quote from: Intercooler on September 11 2014 01:22:42 PM MDT
Fingers are crossed someone didn't pull a fast one swapping some other grip panels on there.
If you ever need parts or Gunsmithing for your Tanfoglio:
http://www.jandlgunsmithing.com/category-s/1837.htm?searching=Y&sort=13&cat=1837&show=10&page=2
They have many of Henning's pieces on there as well.
Thank you for the link. The pistol came from Wholesale Hunter, a large online dealer. So I'm hoping that a little switcheroo hasn't taken place.
There is a ton more metal there than in mine. I would work it over with a file and create some clearance like you are planning.
Couldn't find the small files so I used a medium sized one and did some very slight filing. Area filed is where I have the red arrow in a previous post. I just file a little at a time, try a mag, then filed a little more. Basically just knocked off the sharp corner. Now three of the magazines insert and drop freely, no binding what so ever. One magazine will still bind some. It will insert easier but will not drop freely. I think that I will stop filing for now as it could be the one magazine is slightly out of spec. After I shoot the pistol a time or two to insure all is well, I'm going to order a three or four more magazines and see how they do. Got to run for now but will try to take a picture of the are filed later. Thanks again for everyone's help.
Is the frame stainless or hard chrome? If it is chrome, don't forget to cold blue where you filed it.
Those are a new style. They look pretty good too!
Hey Coltitis, where are you located?
Yesterday I took the LTD Pro out for it's first workout. I was hoping that the parts from Henning were going to be in yesterday's mail, but they weren't, so off to the range I went. I ran 2 different reloads and through 4 magazines. Reloads were topped with Montana Gold 180 grain JHPs and Zero 200 grain FMJ. I had previously shot these through 2 different 1911 pistols of which the 180 grainers averaged 1200 fps, and the 200 grainers averaged 1100 fps. Both of these loads are fairly pleasant to shoot.
The best that I can describe my first outing with the LTD Pro is.....WOW! Let me first say that I usually do not mention group size because I can no longer shoot decent groups consistently. I wear a merit disc on my shooting glasses and sometimes I am able to get a clear front sight, sometimes not. Additionally, the weather here dropped from Wednesday's 101 to yesterday's 63 degrees. Cloudy, windy, and misty were the range conditions. With that said, my best 15 yard group for the day measured 1.2", using the 200 grain Zero bullets.
I fired a total of 124 rounds and did not experience any malfunctions. To me the recoil was managed a little better than when shooting these same loads in my 1911 pistols. Not sure how to describe it but the recoil seemed to be a little softer. For fun I shot at a few clay pigeons placed on the berm, distance was 20 yards. As long as I did my part the pigeons didn't stand a chance.
Needless to say I am thrilled with this new pistol.
Here's a picture with the with the best group of the day:
(http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp195/FiveBullets9-/DSCN5575_zps84069f01.jpg) (http://s411.photobucket.com/user/FiveBullets9-/media/DSCN5575_zps84069f01.jpg.html)
Very nice! You can trick it out with a Dawson fiber front sight to see it better too. Very nice with the new style grips!
Quote from: Intercooler on September 13 2014 05:25:03 AM MDT
Very nice! You can trick it out with a Dawson fiber front sight to see it better too. Very nice with the new style grips!
Thanks for the tip on the Dawson sight. This past year I have tried the fiber optic sight on 3 other pistols and the work great for me. I really do like the looks of the grips but alas they are a bit thick for my hands. Looks like I will have to get a set of the aluminum ones.
I'm going to start a new thread about some other questions that I have concerning this pistol and the Witness line in general.
Quote from: sqlbullet on September 11 2014 03:24:52 PM MDT
Is the frame stainless or hard chrome? If it is chrome, don't forget to cold blue where you filed it.
After doing a little research it appears that the frame is chrome, so off came the panels and some oil applied. This is a bit embarrassing but I thought that the pistol was stainless steel. Yep, I've got a lot to learn about these. Thanks for the heads up.
I'd just like says thanks to Coltitis for all these details and additional questions. I too am considering my first EAA Witness. I was originally thinking about the Elite Match, but now you guys have me looking at all of the various steel model Witness pistols in 10mm.
Also, a special thank you to Intercooler and sqlbullet for all of the information provided.
Now, if I could only make up my mind...
Just buy a couple :o
Yesterday I took the Elite Pro for it's second trip to the range. Ran 106 rounds through it, a mixture of my reloads and factory ammo. This was also my first trip since installing the following parts from Henning:
Flat bottom firing pin stop
Conefit guide rod
20lb recoil spring
I had 2 failures to completely feed on the next to last mag, ammo was some of my reloads. I had already shot a combined 200 rounds through the Pro and the Nighthawk Long slide. I was starting to loose my grip and believe that a weakening hold contributed to the malfunctions. Or it could have been the reloads, perhaps a combination of both.
I'm really liking this pistol. Talked to Jim at J & L Gunsmiths and have a set of the extreme grip panels on the way. These should improve my grip on the pistol.
As a side note, after my last few trips to the range shooting 10's, it appears that around 100 to 125 rounds is my limit for shooting the warm loads. My hands ached for 24 hours after each outing. If I keep the loads down around the FBI lite range, I can shoot a bit longer without experiencing discomfort.
I have never had limp-wrist related FTF in my witness guns when shooting. I have observed them in others shooting my guns though. It does appear it is sensitive to this.