Not for everyone or every situation but it is great fun (at least for me) to shoot.
Thoughts?
Pat
I like it better than either 9mm or .40 S&W. I also like that it is relatively cheap to reload as the components are so far easy to find.
Early on the range used to have many 357Sig cases lying around, I scooped up quite a supply back then and decide to get a conversion barrel chambered for the G-29. Therefore I got into loading and shooting it! I also got into the 9x25Dillon just because I like playing with with the different cartridges from the same guns.
If ever my friend gets back to the CNC machines, I have a 357Sig barrel being made one for the 1076 4.25" and one for 1006 5".
I see no need (for myself) for a 357SIG. It took me 13 years to get a 40S&W, and the only reason why I got one was so I have something to shoot when only 40S&W ammo is on the shelf. I actually just bought a 40S&W slide and barrel for my Beretta 92. If I ever decide to go the bottleneck route, I will get a 9x25 barrel for my G20. I figure if I am going to go to a 357 SIG I might as well go 357 SIG plus a little extra.
.
The sig often offers less penetrantion than a .40sw & .45acp. It's permenant wound channel is equal to, and or less than 9mm plus P. hot commercial loads generate 1400fps / 550ft_lbs of energy.
The glorious 10mm matches / exceeds it in trajectory, wound channel diameter, energy & power factor.
The 10mm can be had with a controllable 400ft_lbs to nuclear 760ft_lbs. from rabbits - to bears.
The .357sig is an an acurrate round, but it's uses aren't as vesatiled as our ten.
As fore mentioned, if I'm going to shoot a fast .357/9mm caliber, it'll be my 9x25. 2000fps & less muzzle climb than sig or 10. Add a compensated barrel and I'm grinning.
The .357sig is a good round but I love 10mm platforms. !!!!10mmfirearms dot on!!!!
Rain;
I wasn't trying to compare to the ten. As far as penetration, you need to read up JUST a bit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK6KbA-HuZ8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK6KbA-HuZ8). tnoutdoors9, the tester in this video, said it was one of the best test results he had seen (other than Hornady's 10mm XTP. This puts ALL 9mm to shame.
Here's a list of all the State Police in the US Duty weapon & caliber (from GlockTalk)
The thread has some good info, notice only 2 use 9mm
http://www.stoppingpower.net/forum/t...66&whichpage=1
Caliber CornerPosted - October 24 2012 : 10:48:41 PM Caliber CornerCaliber Corner
Alabama Glock 22/23 (.40 S&W)
Alaska Glock 22/23 (.40 S&W)
Arizona Sig P226 (.40 S&W)
Arkansas Glock 21SF (State Police), Glock 22 (S.P. Highway Patrol) (.45 ACP, .40 S&W)
California S&W 4006TSW (.40 S&W)
Colorado S&W M&P (.40 S&W)
Connecticut Sig P220 (.45 ACP)
Delaware Sig P229 (.357Sig)
Florida Glock 37 (.45 GAP)
Georgia Glock 37 (.45 GAP)
Hawaii (State Sheriff's Office, Honolulu) S&W M&P (9mm)
Idaho Glock 21 (.45 ACP) or Glock 22 (.40 S&W)
Illinois Glock 22 (.40 S&W)
Indiana Glock 21 (.45 ACP)
Iowa S&W M&P (.40 S&W)
Kansas Glock 21 (.45 ACP)
Kentucky Glock 35 (.40 S&W)
Lousiana Glock 22 (.40 S&W)
Maine HK USP (.45 ACP)
Maryland Glock 22 (.40 S&W)
Massachusetts S&W M&P (.45 ACP)
Michigan Sig P226 (.40 S&W)
Minnesota Glock 22 (.40 S&W)
Mississippi Glock 22 (.40 S&W)
Missouri Glock 22 (.40 S&W)
Montana Sig P229 (.357Sig)
Nebraska Glock 22 (.40 S&W)
Nevada Sig P229 (.40 S&W)
New Hampshire S&W M&P (.45 ACP)
New Jersey Sig 228 (9mm)
New Mexico S&W M&P (.357 Sig)
New York Glock 37 (.45 GAP)
North Carolina S&W M&P(.357Sig)
North Dakota Glock 22 (.40 S&W)
Ohio Sig P229/P226 (.40 S&W)
Oklahoma Sig P226R (.357Sig)
Oregon S&W M&P (.40 S&W)
Pennsylvania Glock 37 (.45 GAP)
Rhode Island Sig P229 (.357Sig)
South Carolina Glock 37 (.45 GAP)
South Dakota Sig P229 (.357 Sig)
Tennessee Glock 31 (.357Sig)
Texas Sig P229/P226 (.357Sig)
Utah Glock 22 (.40 S&W)
Vermont S&W M&P (.40 S&W)
Virginia Sig P229RDAK (.357Sig)
Washington S&W M&P (.40 S&W)
West Virginia S&W 4566TSW (.45 ACP)
Wisconsin Glock 22 (.40 S&W)
Wyoming S&W M&P (.40 S&W)
My first choice is and always will be the 10mm though.
Pat
Right on buckeye 50. 357 sig blows the 9 away and is one of the best performers on tests. Those test TN OUTDOORS does are impressive. Makes me want to get a Glock 32 for sure.
This may help explain the 357Sig as well...9x25Dillon also...
http://indefinitelywild.gizmodo.com/how-math-makes-smaller-bullets-deadlier-1627307057 (http://indefinitelywild.gizmodo.com/how-math-makes-smaller-bullets-deadlier-1627307057)
.357 Sig is a good round but the 9mm can perform almost as well depending on what round you use. These are very impressive tests done by tnoutdoors9 also. Speer does make a factory LE +p+ 124 gr 9mm load also. If you watch until the end or have seen enough gel tests then you know that higher velocity with the same bullet cause more expansion and a faster energy dump. The question is whether you want more penetration or a more violent, and likely more damaging bullet track due to higher expansion, round. I see and agree with the choices made by the LEO community, but keep in mind they are more likely to need to shoot thru materials like a car door or a windshield than we do using a firearm for self defense where the situational stress affecting shot placement and hit percentage makes the available number of rounds in the magazine very important.
Here are some interesting videos of him testing 9mm loads, with him comparing the UW +p+ 124 gr 9mm to the .357sig.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcrsOyAa0gY&list=UUv2qBjXtz7pjF4WnkMzA3dw&index=72 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcrsOyAa0gY&list=UUv2qBjXtz7pjF4WnkMzA3dw&index=72)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMiI8VcPQ3c&index=69&list=UUv2qBjXtz7pjF4WnkMzA3dw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMiI8VcPQ3c&index=69&list=UUv2qBjXtz7pjF4WnkMzA3dw)
Quote from: The_Shadow on September 04 2014 09:44:49 AM MDT
This may help explain the 357Sig as well...9x25Dillon also...
http://indefinitelywild.gizmodo.com/how-math-makes-smaller-bullets-deadlier-1627307057 (http://indefinitelywild.gizmodo.com/how-math-makes-smaller-bullets-deadlier-1627307057)
Quote"A bullet cartridge rely's on the venturi effect to increase the speed of a bullet as it is fired."
That makes no sense. Bullet velocity is dependent on the amount of force applied to the bullet. Pressure is equal to force over area: P=F/A. Using 6th grade algebra would make Force equal to pressure time area: (P)(A)=F. Since the pressure starts out high and drops off, the force also starts out high and drops off as the bullet travels down the barrel.
The venturi or Bernoulli effect has nothing to do with it.
.
my_old_glock, I'd be inclined to side with you on that, I found that link on facebook this morning. I placed it here for question...
The venturi effect has to do with fluids in motion, air & gases can also be considered a fluid. The cartridge and barrel can be looked at as a closed container behind the bullet even as it is moving down the barrel, the propellant charge is that of an expanding gas, it builds to a peak spike in pressure and tapers off as the bullet travels and then exits the barrel.
As a fireman, I used the venturi effect to siphon fluids like foam from a 5 gallon can to be introduced to the stream of a hoseline. The venturi develops a lower pressure area, thus the atmosphere being of higher pressure, pushed the foam up into the venturi opening to be introduced in the flowing stream of water.
While the picture and article show and compare the rifle round to the venturi or Bernoulli effect, the system is closed and has no opening as shown to allow a lower pressure to be induced by any movement of the gases therefore it has nothing to do with rifle or pistol cartridges as such.
What is happening is actually allowing the pressure to build to higher pressures, over a longer period of time due to the reduced opening, thus acting on the bullet longer before it bleeds off...
Good call my_old_glock! :D
Quote from: HammersD on September 04 2014 09:53:46 AM MDT
.357 Sig is a good round but the 9mm can perform almost as well depending on what round you use. These are very impressive tests done by tnoutdoors9 also. Speer does make a factory LE +p+ 124 gr 9mm load also. If you watch until the end or have seen enough gel tests then you know that higher velocity with the same bullet cause more expansion and a faster energy dump. The question is whether you want more penetration or a more violent, and likely more damaging bullet track due to higher expansion, round. I see and agree with the choices made by the LEO community, but keep in mind they are more likely to need to shoot thru materials like a car door or a windshield than we do using a firearm for self defense where the situational stress affecting shot placement and hit percentage makes the available number of rounds in the magazine very important.
Here are some interesting videos of him testing 9mm loads, with him comparing the UW +p+ 124 gr 9mm to the .357sig.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcrsOyAa0gY&list=UUv2qBjXtz7pjF4WnkMzA3dw&index=72 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcrsOyAa0gY&list=UUv2qBjXtz7pjF4WnkMzA3dw&index=72)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMiI8VcPQ3c&index=69&list=UUv2qBjXtz7pjF4WnkMzA3dw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMiI8VcPQ3c&index=69&list=UUv2qBjXtz7pjF4WnkMzA3dw)
Apples to Apples.....the 357sig out performs the 9mm in every case.
Now, if you want to compare max loads to semi-max loads, feel free; but when apples to apples....the sig exceeds 9mm every time.
Quote from: redbaron007 on September 04 2014 01:31:47 PM MDT
Quote from: HammersD on September 04 2014 09:53:46 AM MDT
.357 Sig is a good round but the 9mm can perform almost as well depending on what round you use. These are very impressive tests done by tnoutdoors9 also. Speer does make a factory LE +p+ 124 gr 9mm load also. If you watch until the end or have seen enough gel tests then you know that higher velocity with the same bullet cause more expansion and a faster energy dump. The question is whether you want more penetration or a more violent, and likely more damaging bullet track due to higher expansion, round. I see and agree with the choices made by the LEO community, but keep in mind they are more likely to need to shoot thru materials like a car door or a windshield than we do using a firearm for self defense where the situational stress affecting shot placement and hit percentage makes the available number of rounds in the magazine very important.
Here are some interesting videos of him testing 9mm loads, with him comparing the UW +p+ 124 gr 9mm to the .357sig.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcrsOyAa0gY&list=UUv2qBjXtz7pjF4WnkMzA3dw&index=72 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcrsOyAa0gY&list=UUv2qBjXtz7pjF4WnkMzA3dw&index=72)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMiI8VcPQ3c&index=69&list=UUv2qBjXtz7pjF4WnkMzA3dw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMiI8VcPQ3c&index=69&list=UUv2qBjXtz7pjF4WnkMzA3dw)
Apples to Apples.....the 357sig out performs the 9mm in every case.
Very true
Now, if you want to compare max loads to semi-max loads, feel free; but when apples to apples....the sig exceeds 9mm every time.
Red Baron,
I wanted to add this to start with: you are correct and I absolutely agree on the apples to apples, but both cartridges use the same .355 bullet. The 357sig has more case volume for powder, thus has a higher velocity potential. All I was pointing out was that there are 9mm rounds available to purchase that meet the ballistics of the standard .357sig rounds (obviously you need to know the capabilities of your firearm to be safe shooting +p+ rounds). I am not looking for a which is better argument, but rather simply stating and showing that the same bullet shot from either cartridge with the same velocity and bullet weight have a very high probability of inflicting the same damage, whether in gel or flesh.
Isn't this what makes the 10mm round so versatile? You can get a light, super fast round or a big, slower round that suits your desires or needs. It is comforting for me to have 14+ rounds of 41 magnum like power. I don't have to have nuclear rounds loaded, but I can and this is also why most people on this board were happy to see Federal come out with the 180 Vital Shok with a good velocity that made it a true 10mm round. Again, I am not saying they are apples to apples, but e=mc2.
Remember, I am not looking to argue and that is what makes this forum the place I go to.
Jon
Quote from: HammersD on September 04 2014 03:11:59 PM MDT
Red Baron,
I wanted to add this to start with: you are correct and I absolutely agree on the apples to apples, but both cartridges use the same .355 bullet. The 357sig has more case volume for powder, thus has a higher velocity potential. All I was pointing out was that there are 9mm rounds available to purchase that meet the ballistics of the standard .357sig rounds (obviously you need to know the capabilities of your firearm to be safe shooting +p+ rounds). I am not looking for a which is better argument, but rather simply stating and showing that the same bullet shot from either cartridge with the same velocity and bullet weight have a very high probability of inflicting the same damage, whether in gel or flesh.
Isn't this what makes the 10mm round so versatile? You can get a light, super fast round or a big, slower round that suits your desires or needs. It is comforting for me to have 14+ rounds of 41 magnum like power. I don't have to have nuclear rounds loaded, but I can and this is also why most people on this board were happy to see Federal come out with the 180 Vital Shok with a good velocity that made it a true 10mm round. Again, I am not saying they are apples to apples, but e=mc2.
Remember, I am not looking to argue and that is what makes this forum the place I go to.
Jon
No problemo.......I'm not arguing which is best either, but many try to make the case that one doesn't need a 357sig; you can get the same from some 9mm loads. This is partially true; however, most will not shoot a box of that stuff through their gun during their lifetime. My target loads are a 1300 fps, which is fairly close to high end 9mm. My carry loads are at 1475+.
I love the 357sig and 10mm round for their high-end out-put in a semi-automatic hand gun; plus their ammo versatility too. Is one better than the other...that depends on the one's preference. I have a G26 that is carried sometimes; I float between loads, 125gr or 147gr, depending on the year. I will let each person make the determination that is best for them by letting the data speak for itself. There are some who don't want those high end loads, that is fine.
I have to admit, I interpreted your comments as the 9mm is equal or better to the 357sig; hence my response. I don't advocate one is 'better' than the other; but when I here/see the comparisons, I just like to point out apples to apples.
My apologies if I came across a bit rude.....it wasn't my intention...it was just to match apples to apples.
I appreciate the civility.
Quote from: redbaron007 on September 04 2014 01:31:47 PM MDT
Apples to Apples.....the 357sig out performs the 9mm in every case.
Now, if you want to compare max loads to semi-max loads, feel free; but when apples to apples....the sig exceeds 9mm every time.
How about cost per round to shoot/practice. :-* :P ;D
.
357 Sig Brass has been much easier and much cheaper for me to find to reload. As in:
$28 per 250 for once used brass for 357 sig
vs
$60 per 250 for once used brass for 10mm
Bullets are slightly cheaper by a buck or two for 9mm vs 40 cal bullets.
That said I do prefer 10mm.
Pre-Loaded ammo about the same cost.
Quote from: my_old_glock on September 04 2014 06:00:43 PM MDT
Quote from: redbaron007 on September 04 2014 01:31:47 PM MDT
Apples to Apples.....the 357sig out performs the 9mm in every case.
Now, if you want to compare max loads to semi-max loads, feel free; but when apples to apples....the sig exceeds 9mm every time.
How about cost per round to shoot/practice. :-* :P ;D
.
Is cost a part of performance? ;D
Guys;
The 357 sig round IS expensive, but so is the 10mm. IF cost is a major issue for someone, which is totally understandable these days, then the 9mm or 22 is a better choice than EITHER the 357 sig OR 10mm.
I think we all know the number one criteria for stopping power is shot placement. I personally dislike the 9mm but that is my own personal opinion and feeling. I perfectly respect anyone else's preferences and choices.
So far, as far as I know, THAT is still legal in our slowly fading/dying democracy/republic.........(sigh :-[)
Best,
Pat
Quote from: redbaron007 on September 04 2014 03:36:54 PM MDT
Quote from: HammersD on September 04 2014 03:11:59 PM MDT
Red Baron,
I wanted to add this to start with: you are correct and I absolutely agree on the apples to apples, but both cartridges use the same .355 bullet. The 357sig has more case volume for powder, thus has a higher velocity potential. All I was pointing out was that there are 9mm rounds available to purchase that meet the ballistics of the standard .357sig rounds (obviously you need to know the capabilities of your firearm to be safe shooting +p+ rounds). I am not looking for a which is better argument, but rather simply stating and showing that the same bullet shot from either cartridge with the same velocity and bullet weight have a very high probability of inflicting the same damage, whether in gel or flesh.
Isn't this what makes the 10mm round so versatile? You can get a light, super fast round or a big, slower round that suits your desires or needs. It is comforting for me to have 14+ rounds of 41 magnum like power. I don't have to have nuclear rounds loaded, but I can and this is also why most people on this board were happy to see Federal come out with the 180 Vital Shok with a good velocity that made it a true 10mm round. Again, I am not saying they are apples to apples, but e=mc2.
Remember, I am not looking to argue and that is what makes this forum the place I go to.
Jon
No problemo.......I'm not arguing which is best either, but many try to make the case that one doesn't need a 357sig; you can get the same from some 9mm loads. This is partially true; however, most will not shoot a box of that stuff through their gun during their lifetime. My target loads are a 1300 fps, which is fairly close to high end 9mm. My carry loads are at 1475+.
I love the 357sig and 10mm round for their high-end out-put in a semi-automatic hand gun; plus their ammo versatility too. Is one better than the other...that depends on the one's preference. I have a G26 that is carried sometimes; I float between loads, 125gr or 147gr, depending on the year. I will let each person make the determination that is best for them by letting the data speak for itself. There are some who don't want those high end loads, that is fine.
I have to admit, I interpreted your comments as the 9mm is equal or better to the 357sig; hence my response. I don't advocate one is 'better' than the other; but when I here/see the comparisons, I just like to point out apples to apples.
My apologies if I came across a bit rude.....it wasn't my intention...it was just to match apples to apples.
I appreciate the civility.
no problem. The interpretation of the written word is by far one of the most difficult things in life and likely why a lot of us are on this forum. There is no body language to see or inflection heard by the listener. I like the civility on here and if I was actually advocating that the 9mm and the .357sig are equal, then I should get a written or verbal slap. in fact, the 357sig peeked my interest when I finally got to a point in my life that I was financially able to enter the world of firearms. at that time in 2013, the 9mm was simply more cost effective for range time ammo and enough self defense for my bedside table with the 17 rd mags. This is why I love the G20 and 10mm platform in general. I can just get a 357sig conversion barrel and go see what the cartridge is all about.
I love this forum, all the people more knowledgeable than me on here and the respectful way people treat each other. thank you all
Jon
OH BTW! If anyone has any 357Sig rounds they wish to document here on the forum...Really looking for SwampFox 357Sig or even any other SwampFox ammo to document to preserve what was used back then by Mike Willard. Double Tap would be nice to do and I did an Underwood 125 FMJ.
I have documented an Underwood 357Sig loading http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-ammo-pull-downs/underwood-357sig-125gr-bonded-fmj-pull-down/ (http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-ammo-pull-downs/underwood-357sig-125gr-bonded-fmj-pull-down/)
I have had good luck with cast bullets from mine
357 SIG
Lyman 125.0 gr CHP Dia. 0.356"
Blue Dot 10.0 gr
Winchester WSP primer
COAL 1.1350"
Velocity 1200 fps 3.78" bbl
(http://images1.opticsplanet.com/755-405-ffffff/opplanet-lyman-pistol-bullet-mould-9mm-hollow-point-356637-2650637.jpg)
I also load a LEE 120 grain TC that shoots well.
My P239 was my first "modern" pistol I purchased. Love the .357 Sig round. Had I been aware of the 10mm at the time though I might never had went that way.
As far as expense of rounds go you have to hand load, really. Otherwise you wouldn't shooting 10mm either. My most expensive reloads, for any caliber, are still half as much as the cheapest bulk ammo out there, including disposable aluminum and steel cases, and Berdan primed stuff.