I will start out by saying, Thank you to everybody on this forum. I have been reading for a long time, but first time posting. I appreciate your knowledge and insight!
I have a Gen 4 G20 that keeps giving me FTF (nose up) when there are 3 or 4 rounds left in the magazine. The first 11 or 12 shots in the mags feed just fine. This malfunction happens with all 3 mags I have. I should mention that it only happens when I am shooting max or near max loads. I have had it happen with FMJ, Gold Dots, and Doubletap's WFNGC hard cast. When I shoot Armscor 180gr FMJ it functions 100% even with the 24 pound spring. I checked the feed lips with calipers are they are within Glock spec. I have disassembled the mags to check to make sure everything is good....no luck.
I get the malfunctions with both the stock and KKM barrel. I have tried the stock recoil spring, 22 pound spring, and I even bought a 24 pound spring to try to fix it. Anytime I feed it full power it jams with 3 or 4 rounds left in the mag. It malfunctions in its100% stock configuration or 100% modified.
It sounds like others have been having this issue. Has anyone found a resolution? I didn't buy a 10mm to only shoot watered down loads, I bought it so I could get maximum knockdown power when I am out in the woods. If I am stuck to Armscor level ammo, I think I made a mistake in purchasing a Gen 4. I have a call into Glock customer service to see what they can do, waiting to hear back from them.
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Species, Welcome to the forum! Yes others have experienced the same condition with their 4th generations. The "Nose Up" issue seems to be magazine spring related. Some have stretched out their magazine springs as they were found too short and yet others have gone with extra power magazine springs from Wolff Gun Springs. Some followers can have drag as they try to slide inside the magazine housing, check to see if there is any flash (excess plastic from molding process), I use some Armor All to lightly condition the insides of my magazines...wipe on and off leaving a slight film to help things from hanging up, on the outsides it helps them drop freely also.
Even still some experienced the last round remaining in the mag with the slide locked back.
They have a post where the springs were measured before and after on the forum here somewhere.
Good luck and best regards! :D
Shadow - Thank you! I will have to play with the springs and try the armor all trick.
A little off topic, but magazine related, all of my magazines rattle when they are loaded and inserted into the pistol. It sounds like a round is sliding forward and back inside the magazine. When the magazine is taken out of the gun it does not rattle and the spring pressure seems to hold the rounds in place. If I take the magazine out if the pistol and push the top round down into the magazine with my finger about 1/8" and shake the magazine it rattles. Could this be related to the FTF issue?
That is very possible...the sides of the follower could be dragging on the insides of magazine itself, that would be a problem to maintain proper spring upward pressure for the entire follower travel. Look inside the magazine itself for any snags, like the plastic flash I mentioned. It should be smooth all the way to the top. I have even found one of my G-20 Mags with the spring in backwards.
I took my magazines apart and everything looks to be in order. The springs on all the mags are about 5-3/4" long. I searched the forum and couldn't find the thread on mag spring length. Anyone have input on wether that length is correct?
Chucky2 found some about an inch shorter (new magazines) and was told they needed to be at 6", yours are very close...see post Reply #29 in this link.
http://10mm-firearms.com/10mm-semi-auto-handguns/g20-gen4-ftf-issues/15/ (http://10mm-firearms.com/10mm-semi-auto-handguns/g20-gen4-ftf-issues/15/)
I just got off the phone with Glock. The gentleman I got on the phone proceeded to tell me that you cannot shoot underwood, buffalo bore, or double tap ammo through your Glock because they all exceed 37,500 "FPS". I said, "do you mean PSI???". He said, "no 37,500 feet per second.....that is way too fast for a Glock". I said, "hell yes it is, that is close to the speed of light. I am pretty sure you are talking about pressure". His reply, "maybe you are right, but you still can't shoot that ammo through your glock because it does not meet SAAMI specs. We discussed that BS for several minutes......
After a long and frustrating conversation about buffalo bore and doubletap all having loads within spec, he proceeded to tell me that you can't shoot any full power ammo out of a glock. I told him that they should advertise that information or at least put it in the owners manual (which I read before I purchased). I told him I didn't buy a 10mm to shoot .40 S&W level rounds out of it. I already have a .40, I don't need a much bigger, much heavier, and much more expensive gun to shoot that only delivers equal performance as its little brother. I even directed him to Glock's website where they advertise the 10mm as this: "The GLOCK 20, in 10mm AUTO, provides nothing short of massive firepower especially suited for hunting"
He then asked me if I had tried swapping the recoil spring out. I said, "Do you mean with an aftermarket assembly? I am not allowed to do that, it will void the warranty......but since you asked first, yes I did and it didn't help". I thought that was interesting to have a glock tech support person suggest an aftermarket part that technically voids their warranty.
At the end of the conversation he agreed to take the magazines back and swap them out, but I have to pay shipping to get them back. Apparently Glock does not send shipping labels for magazine issues. Not a huge deal, I have already spent a fortune on this stupid gun, another $5.00 at the post office isn't going to make my wife any more furious than she already is :D. I hope the new mags will solve the problem. I can't afford to shoot much more ammo out of this thing just trying to solve a factory defect. I have already spent close to $300 on ammo and range fees just trying to trouble shoot this problem. Granted I have gotten better and handling the recoil, but it has not been an enjoyable stress relieving session like it usually is.
Overall I am very disappointed in Glock's customer service. I expected more. I think I may sell this gun unless someone can talk me out of it. With my night sights, KKM barrel (which I love by the way), recoil springs of various weights, and a few other misc accessories to try to get the gun working properly, I am into this thing the exact same price as a Kimber 10mm. I should have just gone with the Kimber. At least their customer service is helpful.
So there is my rant...........I will keep you all posted on the outcome.
I should also mention that they will not take the gun back as they are certain it is magazine related. I have to try their new magazines first. Then if there is still an issue, this gentleman said that they would need to have a certified Glock Armorer look at the gun before it comes back to them.
Again, I will keep everyone up to speed on the what happens. Thanks for all your help!
Just so you know...This is what I asked Underwood today...
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2014 1:10 PM
To: sales@underwoodammo.com
Subject: Contact Us Submitted
Comments or Questions: One question, does your 10mm ammo fit the SAAMI pressure 37,500 psi and the MAP?
Thanks
Wade
QuoteCody Craig <sales@underwoodammo.com>
Yes, it is at the top of SAAMI's specifications, but it is still in SAAMI's specifications.
Mrs. Cody Craig
618-965-2109
hannah@underwoodammo.com
Thanks for the info from Underwood. I figured that was the case, but it is good to have an "official" response. I called DoubleTap and got a similar response over the phone, didn't think to document it, but perhaps I will follow up with an email.
This just came to mind, as I was speaking with the Glock tech support rep on the phone yesterday he asked me what number I had on my magazine followers. I have a 3 marked on the top of all my followers. He then put me on hold and came back and said they want to replace all my magazines. I asked him if the number 3 was a bad number, he would not give me a straight answer. It will be interesting to see what number comes back on the replacement mag followers.
I am curious what numbers are on the followers that others have had FTF issues with. Has anyone ever looked at the numbers on their followers? What number do you have on magazines that work flawlessly?
I check the followers on my G-20SF and they have a number 2 on them...
Let us know what number follower they send back! 8) The 4gen has a different slide stop and may actually require the #3's ???
Thanks shadow. I will keep everyone up to speed. I hope Glock has a fast turn around time.
You're welcome, I too just want to see the Gen 4 Glocks run as smooth as butter and without any issues.
I wrote the Wolff Gun Springs about springs for the Gen4's and they haven't started to make specific setups for them yet. Someday they will probably get tooled up to supply the Gen4's as more are made and sold but they may also be looking at reliability issues. ???
Glock needs to study the situations, to gain the upper hand, too many people having problems and many are being discouraged with buying the Gen4's... :o
Good luck!
#3 followers for my g20 gen 4, although I only shoot BB 155gr. Barnes and 220gr hard cast, Wilson Combat 180gr. XTP's, and Pierce (Ted Nugent) 180gr HP's. No issues, although FWIW, I do have a gunsmith fit Barso barrel and had a reliability package performed on the G20 by the same gunsmith.
I have one old gen-3 mag and it has a #2 follower.
good luck!
- jim
Yep, same problem I have. Don't bother sending the pistol back to Glock unless they'll replace it with a Gen 3/Gen 3SF as another poster had done...they will find nothing wrong because they test with extremely weak 10mm ammo (and getting that info out of them was like prying it out via email). I have #3 followers as well. It is interesting they say that about the mags because I went to a gun show in Indy earlier this year and there was a Glock certified armorer there. He listened to my issues and thought it might be mag related. He took his glock tool and pushed down on my first mag follower and it sorta did a snag type thing, which he frowned at. The other two did he same thing. I asked if that was normal and he didn't say No, however, he took the time to go find one of his new Gen4 G20 mags and it did the same thing, so he didn't further troubleshoot that aspects of it. That stuck in my mind though, because if that was TRULY normal, he wouldn't have got the frown on his face, nor went and checked another mag. He then broke all my mags down and checked the spring length, which was like 5" or something like that...according to him it should be 6". He stretched mine out to 6" and reassembled. Then cleaned my gun (which wasn't that dirty) with baby wipes and told me to not use Frog Lube and told me all that was needed was Tetra grease, except he didn't grease at a few points the manual said to. I paid particular attention to not get Frog Lube anywhere close to the striker channel. It did better at the range with the PBR, but, I still had problems just like yours. My bud who has zero recoil issues (wrestler, forearms and wrists are naturally strong) shot it and had a same type FTF. Notable because the technical guy at glock told me he thinks its limp existing causing 10mm issues.
Quote from: txgunshowreview on July 13 2014 03:32:06 PM MDT
#3 followers for my g20 gen 4, although I only shoot BB 155gr. Barnes and 220gr hard cast, Wilson Combat 180gr. XTP's, and Pierce (Ted Nugent) 180gr HP's. No issues, although FWIW, I do have a gunsmith fit Barso barrel and had a reliability package performed on the G20 by the same gunsmith.
I have one old gen-3 mag and it has a #2 follower.
What work was done as part of the "reliability" package? I need that guy in my neighborhood :D
Species - the work was done by Mike Caylor of Caylor Customs in Allen, TX. He worked over the extractor/ejector and ejection was radically different after the work. The gun throws brass directly to the right and with loads like Pierce or Wilson Combat, into the next county :) There was one mod. I can't remember the specifics of (this was done last Sept.) that related to feed reliability. He plugged he opening at the bottom/back of the grip so debris can't work its way in while I'm hiking, and a lot of work on the barrel. Mike also passed along similar advice regarding mags that has already been covered in this thread - this is, by far, the best forum online, btw.
PM me and I'll pass along Mike's number as he does not have a web site. That way, he can provide better detail. I'm not a gunsmith or very mechanically inclined - my background is math/aerospace engineering, so I'm more theoretical by nature. Caylor Customs offers several packages that help compensate for the loose tolerances and MIM parts that pass as 'perfection' these days :)
regards,
- jim
Quote from: chucky2 on July 13 2014 09:28:57 PM MDT
Yep, same problem I have. Don't bother sending the pistol back to Glock unless they'll replace it with a Gen 3/Gen 3SF as another poster had done...they will find nothing wrong because they test with extremely weak 10mm ammo (and getting that info out of them was like prying it out via email). I have #3 followers as well. It is interesting they say that about the mags because I went to a gun show in Indy earlier this year and there was a Glock certified armorer there. He listened to my issues and thought it might be mag related. He took his glock tool and pushed down on my first mag follower and it sorta did a snag type thing, which he frowned at. The other two did he same thing. I asked if that was normal and he didn't say No, however, he took the time to go find one of his new Gen4 G20 mags and it did the same thing, so he didn't further troubleshoot that aspects of it. That stuck in my mind though, because if that was TRULY normal, he wouldn't have got the frown on his face, nor went and checked another mag. He then broke all my mags down and checked the spring length, which was like 5" or something like that...according to him it should be 6". He stretched mine out to 6" and reassembled. Then cleaned my gun (which wasn't that dirty) with baby wipes and told me to not use Frog Lube and told me all that was needed was Tetra grease, except he didn't grease at a few points the manual said to. I paid particular attention to not get Frog Lube anywhere close to the striker channel. It did better at the range with the PBR, but, I still had problems just like yours. My bud who has zero recoil issues (wrestler, forearms and wrists are naturally strong) shot it and had a same type FTF. Notable because the technical guy at glock told me he thinks its limp existing causing 10mm issues.
Interesting that the Glock armorer does not like Frog Lube. I use a similar product, Fireclean. I love fireclean in my 22 suppressor. I literally just wipe off the fouling and apply a light coat of fireclean and I am done. It cut cleaning time down to 5-10 minutes on my suppressor. Before fireclean it would take me more than an hour (counting the time I put the baffles in the sonic cleaner). I now use it on all my guns and have had zero issues. It really seems to improve performance, especially in my .22lr guns. Fouling just wipes right off. I wipe off all the excess fFireclean so it is almost "dry" and it doesn't attract any dust or debris. I am pretty meticulous on gun cleaning and maintenance. I too am careful not to get anything in the striker channel, but just in case I detail strip my glock on a semi-regular basis and blow the striker channel out with compressed air and clean it real good with alcohol and a q-tip. I have never had a firing pin issue with any of my pistols, ever. But back to my point, I wonder why Frog Lube is not "recommended". Seems like pretty good stuff.
Fireclean I'll be trying next after all my FrogLube runs out (that'll be a while :) )...no idea why he didn't like it. I think his thoughts were that it would get into the striker channel and perhaps foul it. Before I did a detail strip and ultrasonic cleaned everything, I looked at the striker channel and striker and, while expectedly dirty after 1500 rounds, it wasn't that dirty. Certainly nothing I wouldn't expect a Glock Perfection to be able to handle reliably. His frowning and curiosity about my mags sometimes (not always, but sometimes) having a not smooth progression and return worried me a lot more about his opinions on FrogLube.
Sure wish Glock had a Tech Support/RMA department that took issues seriously... :(
Will be very interesting to see what comes back from them.
Quote from: Species on July 09 2014 01:53:00 PM MDT
I get the malfunctions with both the stock and KKM barrel. I have tried the stock recoil spring, 22 pound spring, and I even bought a 24 pound spring to try to fix it. Anytime I feed it full power it jams with 3 or 4 rounds left in the mag. It malfunctions in its100% stock configuration or 100% modified.
I have a Gen.4 G20 as well, with a KKM 6" barrel. To date no issues, firing both Georgia Arms 180gr. FMJ and various Underwood offerings. The one thing I did notice is the slide movement is rather aggressive with the Underwood 135gr. @ 1600fps rounds. You mention trying different recoil spring assemblies, where are you finding them for the Gen.4 offerings?
TIA,
K.
Quote from: chucky2 on July 15 2014 11:47:11 AM MDT
Fireclean I'll be trying next after all my FrogLube runs out (that'll be a while :) )...no idea why he didn't like it. I think his thoughts were that it would get into the striker channel and perhaps foul it. Before I did a detail strip and ultrasonic cleaned everything, I looked at the striker channel and striker and, while expectedly dirty after 1500 rounds, it wasn't that dirty. Certainly nothing I wouldn't expect a Glock Perfection to be able to handle reliably. His frowning and curiosity about my mags sometimes (not always, but sometimes) having a not smooth progression and return worried me a lot more about his opinions on FrogLube.
Sure wish Glock had a Tech Support/RMA department that took issues seriously... :(
Will be very interesting to see what comes back from them.
I've known several Glock Armorers, including myself, who do not use/care for FrogLube in Glocks. Generally speaking, it has shown to draw debris over time and sort of....for a lack of better term, gunk up...almost turn into a grease. I know several folks who use it in the ARs and other pistols with no issues. But from my use and a couple of others (anecdotal of course).....not a big fan of it used in a Glock. Just my $.02. I stick with plain ole Mobil One Synthetic 20W-50 for the wipe down and lube of my Glocks.
Redbaron007 - ever try Fireclean? Seems a little more "liquidy" than frog lube, but I have never actually compared them side by side. I find Fireclean to be similar to Ballistol. I am no armorer, but I have had no issues thus far.
Quote from: NCTURBOS on July 15 2014 02:00:23 PM MDT
I have a Gen.4 G20 as well, with a KKM 6" barrel. To date no issues, firing both Georgia Arms 180gr. FMJ and various Underwood offerings. The one thing I did notice is the slide movement is rather aggressive with the Underwood 135gr. @ 1600fps rounds. You mention trying different recoil spring assemblies, where are you finding them for the Gen.4 offerings?
TIA,
K.
I purchased and returned a Lone Wolf distributors guide rod with their gen 4 adapter ring. Along with that I bought 22 and 24 pound recoil springs by ISMI. I have found out recently that the ISMI springs are not even close to their advertised weight. This was also the feelings of other members here. In fact they are about even with the stock spring.
I have a Wolff guide rod and Wolff 22 and 24 pound springs incoming and based on Shadows info they should be much better. I got them from Wolff directly at www.gunsprings.com. I will have to modify my Gen 4 adapter to fit the larger Wolff guide rod, but should be pretty simple. More on that topic is here.
http://10mm-firearms.com/gunsmithing/recoil-spring-feel/
I also heard that Jentra makes a gen 4 adapter for the Wolff guide rod. Going to give them a call in the morning.
Received my new magazines from Glock today. I sent 3 back for service and Glock sent 5 new ones back to me. They offered to send me an extra one back because I complained about having to pay for shipping, so I was expecting 4.....but 5 is even better. The letter inside the package stated nothing at all, just "replaced magazines, per factory specs". There was no response as to what might have been wrong or what their thoughts were as the inspected my magazines (if they did anything at all with them).
I was pleased with Glocks turn around time. They received my mags on the 14th and the shipping label for my replacements was printed on the 16th. That was a nice to only be without magazines for a week and a half total.
Upon inspecting the new magazines they all appear to be brand new. They look the same as the others, but the followers are all marked with a 4. I took them all apart to make sure they were all up to snuff and all seemed to be clean and free of anything that would cause hangups. The #4 followers don't look any different than the #3's as far as I can tell. I don't have the 3's to compare side by side, but from what I can remember and a few poor pictures I took on my cell phone they are pretty close to the same.
I kept 3 of the magazines with the stock springs and put Wolff +10% springs in the other 2. I am hoping to get to the range in the next couple of days and give a report. Keep your fingers crossed that these #4 followers are the answer to our Gen 4 feed issues.
Went to the range at lunch and the new magazines did not fix my problem. Still having the nose up FTF with 3 or 4 rounds left in the magazine. Called Glock and they are going to take the gun back and sent me a return shipping label. Not sure what I want to do. Sell it and by a gen 3, or send it back and hope I can get Glock to swap it out for a gen 3 or fix it........
I am wondering if it is the gen 4 magazines. Has anyone with a Gen 3 gun used Gen 4 magazines? Any issues with the full power ammo with Gen 4 mags in a gen 3 gun?
Damn...I was really hoping this would have been the fix! :( Curious, when you push down on your followers, with like a glock tool, do they bind up a little once they get down a ways?
I would take the mags apart and check the followers without spring tension, just to feel if there is any resistance as it slides up an or down the inside the tube. I look to see if the follower itself has any poor molded areas or damage... ???
Quote from: chucky2 on July 25 2014 02:24:11 PM MDT
Damn...I was really hoping this would have been the fix! :( Curious, when you push down on your followers, with like a glock tool, do they bind up a little once they get down a ways?
I didn't try pushing the followers down on the new mags, but the old mags did have a little resistance near the top of the mag. I disassembled and tried running the followers up and down the mags with the new replacement mags and they seemed to move just fine. Also wiped them down real good and made sure they were assembled correctly and no plastic flash was obstructing follower movement. But they still gave me issues. Like I said, Glock sent me (5) replacement magazines and all 5 malfunctioned in the gun. I know FTF's are usually magazine related, but I have tried 8 different magazines with 2 different types of followers and every single one malfunctions. That makes me think it is more than a magazine issues. Probably a combination of factors.
It is frustrating because not only have a tried 8 different mags, but I have a KKM barrel, and various recoil spring assemblies. Nothing makes this gun work. I am wondering if the frame is flexing and the way the geometies work out with the last 3 rounds in the mag it causes the failure. I have no way of testing that theory though.....just a hunch. ???
Quote from: The_Shadow on July 25 2014 02:38:23 PM MDT
I would take the mags apart and check the followers without spring tension, just to feel if there is any resistance as it slides up an or down the inside the tube. I look to see if the follower itself has any poor molded areas or damage... ???
I did do that before I went to the range based on previous recommendations you gave me. Everything checked out.......frustrating. >:(
I just printed my return shipping label that Glock gave me. I am sending the gun and mags back. I called and spoke with an armorer about my issues. I asked if they would just swap me out for a Gen 3. He didn't really respond to that question, but he did say "send your gun in with a letter describing your concerns and what you expect us to do and we will do our best to accommodate you." I hope that was "code" for yes, but only time will tell. At least he didn't flat out say "no". Looks like I will be without a 10mm for a month or so.
I wrote a detailed letter describing my issues and my desire to have a Gen 3 platform, provided my FFL information and copy of their license, and am sending back my gun, its case, and all factory accessories that came with it. My thought is that they won't have any excuse to not swap me out for a Gen 3. They will have the complete gun and case as it shipped out of their warehouse. I hope I can convince them just to ship out a Gen 3 and I will stop bothering them ;)
You should tape a note to it when you send it back: 'Unable to handle upper end SAAMI spec 10mm ammo, the opposite of what you all test for function with.' :D Then again, you want them to help you out, so maybe not a good idea...
Quote from: chucky2 on July 25 2014 09:30:30 PM MDT
You should tape a note to it when you send it back: 'Unable to handle upper end SAAMI spec 10mm ammo, the opposite of what you all test for function with.' :D Then again, you want them to help you out, so maybe not a good idea...
Excellent idea ;). I will let you try it first and see how it works. I don't want to steal your thunder ;D
I wish you all the luck getting satisfaction you deserve! :) There have been many who have had these issues with the Gen4 G-20's and it doesn't look like they have found a cure. I still think it has to do with the frames flexing under the influence of the high impulse rounds like Underwood and others.
The only way they will see that happening is to film it with high speed camera and slow motion playback. They need to look for bounce of the slide lock, flexing along the frame to slide fit to see if the magazine is being moved away from the returning slide, slide velocities, they need to look down from the top into the ejection port at the feeding ammo.
Quote from: The_Shadow on July 25 2014 09:46:33 PM MDT
I wish you all the luck getting satisfaction you deserve! :) There have been many who have had these issues with the Gen4 G-20's and it doesn't look like they have found a cure. I still think it has to do with the frames flexing under the influence of the high impulse rounds like Underwood and others.
The only way they will see that happening is to film it with high speed camera and slow motion playback. They need to look for bounce of the slide lock, flexing along the frame to slide fit to see if the magazine is being moved away from the returning slide, slide velocities, they need to look down from the top into the ejection port at the feeding ammo.
I agree. To me it almost seems like the frame flexes and the magazine is forced upwards in the mag well causing the round to be too high and jam nose up. But I lack $100,000 worth of camera equipment to test that theory. I don't think it is slide velocity as my 24 pound Wolff spring seems to slow the slide down well and it still has issues with it installed.
Species, sorry to hear about your problems with the Gen4 G20. I have had the same gun for about 9 months and have had very similar problems, at least in the beginning. My Gen4 also handles Armscor and similar loads without problems, but initially with DT and Underwood I would get the FTF nose ups, except it seemed mine were not consisently the last 3 or 4 in the mag - it may have been with 2, 5 8 or even 12 rounds left in the mag. I kept shooting and first the problems with the DT 200gr WFNGC seemed to clear up (I say "seemed to" because at what that ammo costs, I've only shot 30-40 rounds of it), then problems with the UW 200gr TMJ's lessened so that with the last box I had maybe one or two FTF's. The UW 180 gr TMJ's seemed to always cause the most problems, but the last few mags ran without a hitch (I usually only load 10 when practicing). I think I remember reading here that there were a few lots of UW 180 TMJ that seemed even hotter than usual, so maybe it stands to reason if my ammo was from those lots that is why I was having more problems than with the 200 TMJ's.
I recently purchased some 21 and 24 lb springs from another member here, and have only put a couple mags through using each spring. It really didn't seem to help or hurt - maybe a little less frame battering with the 24 lb - but no jams. I haven't tested the actual spring pull of either, per the earlier posts in this thread. Otherwise my G20 is completely stock.
I have probably 600 rds thru mine, and issues seemed to improve greatly at the 400-450 rd mark. I hope things stay this way and do not regress - being a lefty I wanted a Gen4 for the ambi mag release feature but I have read about several others in your situation trading their Gen4's for Gen3's.
Anyhow, given my circumstances, I was curious as to the total round count you have through your Gen4?
Quote from: fanninland on July 26 2014 04:25:00 PM MDT
Anyhow, given my circumstances, I was curious as to the total round count you have through your Gen4?
I have not kept an exact round count, but I am probably in the 700-800 round range. I typically give my guns a 500 round break in period before I get too worked up. My Kahr CM9 needed a solid 300 rounds before I could trust it. Now it is flawless with all ammo I feed it. This G20 hasn't gotten the memo that after 500 rounds it needs to stop acting up :)
I think we need to add one of these to the list
(http://fun.resplace.net/Emoticons/Angry/BangHead.gif)
Quote from: fanninland on July 26 2014 04:25:00 PM MDT
Species, sorry to hear about your problems with the Gen4 G20. I have had the same gun for about 9 months and have had very similar problems, at least in the beginning. My Gen4 also handles Armscor and similar loads without problems, but initially with DT and Underwood I would get the FTF nose ups, except it seemed mine were not consisently the last 3 or 4 in the mag - it may have been with 2, 5 8 or even 12 rounds left in the mag. I kept shooting and first the problems with the DT 200gr WFNGC seemed to clear up (I say "seemed to" because at what that ammo costs, I've only shot 30-40 rounds of it), then problems with the UW 200gr TMJ's lessened so that with the last box I had maybe one or two FTF's. The UW 180 gr TMJ's seemed to always cause the most problems, but the last few mags ran without a hitch (I usually only load 10 when practicing). I think I remember reading here that there were a few lots of UW 180 TMJ that seemed even hotter than usual, so maybe it stands to reason if my ammo was from those lots that is why I was having more problems than with the 200 TMJ's.
I recently purchased some 21 and 24 lb springs from another member here, and have only put a couple mags through using each spring. It really didn't seem to help or hurt - maybe a little less frame battering with the 24 lb - but no jams. I haven't tested the actual spring pull of either, per the earlier posts in this thread. Otherwise my G20 is completely stock.
I have probably 600 rds thru mine, and issues seemed to improve greatly at the 400-450 rd mark. I hope things stay this way and do not regress - being a lefty I wanted a Gen4 for the ambi mag release feature but I have read about several others in your situation trading their Gen4's for Gen3's.
Anyhow, given my circumstances, I was curious as to the total round count you have through your Gen4?
Did you buy the dual spring assembly?
Quote from: Species on July 25 2014 09:42:59 PM MDT
Quote from: chucky2 on July 25 2014 09:30:30 PM MDT
You should tape a note to it when you send it back: 'Unable to handle upper end SAAMI spec 10mm ammo, the opposite of what you all test for function with.' :D Then again, you want them to help you out, so maybe not a good idea...
Excellent idea ;). I will let you try it first and see how it works. I don't want to steal your thunder ;D
Haha I'm getting to that point with mine. I'm past the year warranty from Glock, but I reported the issue prior to my 1 year, so I wonder if I'd be grandfathered in. Right now I'm sending a guy monthly e-mails asking on status of him escalating my issue. I wonder if Glock will ever pay attention to this (this = midupper to upper end 10mm having FTF in Gen4 G20) or just ignore it...
I wish you luck on getting a Gen3!
Quote from: chucky2 on July 28 2014 09:55:49 AM MDT
Haha I'm getting to that point with mine. I'm past the year warranty from Glock, but I reported the issue prior to my 1 year, so I wonder if I'd be grandfathered in. Right now I'm sending a guy monthly e-mails asking on status of him escalating my issue. I wonder if Glock will ever pay attention to this (this = midupper to upper end 10mm having FTF in Gen4 G20) or just ignore it...
I wish you luck on getting a Gen3!
I think Glock is ignoring the problem right now
OR they are not aware of the problem. The G20 is not a huge volume product for Glock, so they may not see a large number of them returned for warranty work. I also suspect that most people who shoot them only shoot FBI Lite type loads and will never have an issue. Armscor or Remington UMC both function fine in my G20 and are very popular 10mm loads and my guess is that most people stick to something similar in their G20's. Most cannot afford/choose not to sent alot of Buffalo Bore or Underwood down range. For me, I bought the gun for the firepower and knew it would cost a small fortune to shoot. The tech support guys at Glock tell me every time I call that they do not recommend "that type of ammo". My response has always been, "where does it say that in your owners manual, website, or any other documentation?" If they don't want you to shoot full power ammo they should be upfront about it and have a maximum "power factor" of some sort that tells you what you can and cannot shoot. I have had numerous discussions with the folks at Glock about that. They will not give me a level of ammo that is the maximum, but they are quick to tell me that buffalo bore, underwood, doubletap, etc are not recommended. When I ask what they do recommend they say any ammo within SAAMI specs is OK to shoot. I then respond that all those ammo manufacturers that you just said where not recommended are within spec...... ??? It is like talking to a child. But to their credit they have been good to work with, they are just not as informed on the 10mm platform as the folks here are.
I just got an email saying my package was delivered to Glock this morning. Hoping to get a call from an armorer this week. Perhaps more of us need to report problems to Glock and send the pistols back for work. If they saw a large percentage of the guns coming back they may do something about it. Can you say Gen 5 G20?.....no thank you.....If i were Glock I would halt production on Gen 4 and just stick with Gen 3. It is a tried platform, why mess with a good thing.
I think that was my biggest frustration (other than a malfunctioning pistol) so far: Not getting through to Glock that this is a real problem. I just had this rosy view that since firearms are a literal matter of life and death, and reputations are built on a quality and reliability, that firearms manufacturers would have a zeal in ensuring issues relating to their products were handled in a serious manner.
From what I've read on the net, there are some manufacturers that have this pride and commitment to their products, and others that don't. I work as a Program Manager/Project Manager in a $1B+ software shop...if someone came to me with an equivalent problem, we don't sweep that under the rug. The issue is talked about, it's accepted as an issue (whether it's a defect for how the code was defined in the original requirements or a new enhancement that needs to happen to make things work properly), and we work the resolution. What we don't do is just drop the issue, especially after being told about it - well, that does happen from time to time, but it's not pretty when it eventually comes to light. This is probably the most frustrating thing. Glock has been told now by multiple people reporting issues with their Gen4 G20's shooting higher than mild ammo that there are problems. At what point does their QA system, that their Leadership should have ensured is setup and running correctly, actually start logging this repeat issue and get it on a technical SME (mainline Tech Support should not be that system, it's clear they do not understand the issue) radar to look into?
My fear is their Leadership has failed to ensure a system is setup and running properly, and their 'QA system' is the mainline Tech Support people escalating the issue...in which case, those of us with Gen4 G20's experiencing this are doomed, as the mainline folks think testing with (as far as we can infer) weak 10mm ammo is going to repeat functional issues customers specifically state happens with medium to upper end ammo. Worse, escalations produce silence, where as they should produce apologies and action (gets back to culture at company).
Oh well, off my soapbox in your thread. I truly hope you get your issues resolved (either way) with your Gen4 G20!
Chuck
Well said Chuck.....well said. I think you summed up all of our frustrations very well.
No offense intended....but you do not know what Glock is having reported to them. You/We only know what is blurted about on the interweb. But I forgot, everything on the web is true. ;)
//rant-on//
If one is having an issue with the weapon, sure, they should report it. Remember, Glock may be getting reports, but what are those reports. They may have a few reporting this issue; or that issue, but they are relative different issues with no correlation to each other...at least for now. The other question is, how many reports are coming in versus the number of guns sold? However, to accuse leadership of QC issues is beyond the scope of comprehension. To go from my gun has a problem to leadership has failed the QC aspect is not only a blue sky jump but arrogance at its best; for some to leap from their problem, to since it is not being fixed they way they think it should, leadership has failed?.....makes no sense.
I know it's hard for people to think other people may not be having the same problem; but if they are not, it may not be as widespread as others want it to be.
Bottom line.....if one is having problems, report it to Glock, work with them......this goes with any manufacture. I mean, look at the Remington R-51.....there are lots of rumors production has stopped and a completely re-designed model is forthcoming. But no announcement has been made, yet.
//rant-off//
I would be willing to bet Glock is cataloging the issues. Will they tell you; probably not.
Full disclosure, my new G20 G4 has had no issues; including shooting UW Ammo; that goes with either barrel.
He is my outlook on the Gen4 issues...I was in the market for the G-20 Gen4, I over research a lot of stuff, but a great deal came to me on a G-20SF 3Gen and I moved in.
Well that said, I was communicating with various forum members on 6 different forums. I also read about what others were experiencing as they tested, during which, trying to understand for myself what was happening and why. Many I communicated with, tried suggestions of diagnosing the problems, or changing out RSA, and doing things in the attempt of finding a cure, so they could shoot the true 10mm ammo from their guns.
Chuck2 went so far as to send me some of the very ammo he was having issues with, some it was pull-down documented for Q/A put back together, then as per his request, it was shot through my G-20SF without one malfunction. I was even trying some radical stuff, one of my ex-coworkers was teaching a student for CCW that day, he was concerned, why I was shooting like I was. What raised the red flag on the range was, the last few shots, I was shooting gangsta style and also with the gun upside down.
I shot with two hands firm grip, one handed, limp handed, varying the amount of ammo in the two different magazines, used the factory RSA and the Wolff non-captive with 22lb spring, all while trying to keep shots going over the chronograph while standing in puddles of rainwater. Try as I might I could not induce a failure, stoppage of any kind.
Here was the report
QuoteTested the Parabellum Research 165 grain FMJ V-Supreme ammo today, 50 rounds...
My back is still a little sore, it went out last Friday, weather yesterday was horrendous, over 4"+ rain yesterday. Some of the ranges were closed; however I was able to get into one although it was sopping wet. Wind was stiff and moving clouds made some shots not register on the CHRONY.
Here are the results of the range trip, Glock 20 SF.
NO failures of any kind. I did fire 15, 5, 3, 2 from each of two different magazines.
Factory barrel/spring
1290, 1344, 1317, 1340, 1317, 1340, 1280, 1334, 1328, 1191,
1323, 1360, 1380, 1322, 1327, 1324, 1343, 1319, 1331
Factory Barrel Wolff Gun Springs 22lb non captive recoil rod and springs
1295, 1361, 1330, 1335, 1347, 1246, 1342, 1325, 1321, 1333,
1347, 1335, 1328, 1348, 1336, 1333, 1310, 1310
Those were the rounds that registered; I was sort of rushing through this, before anyone else showed up.
Case expansion was 04330"- 0.4340", typical of Glock Factory Barrels.
No problems with this ammo as tested. :D
Here is the link to Chucky2's post; http://10mm-firearms.com/10mm-semi-auto-handguns/g20-gen4-ftf-issues/ (http://10mm-firearms.com/10mm-semi-auto-handguns/g20-gen4-ftf-issues/)
On be have of Chuck2 and the 10mm community of people, I even wrote a letter to Smyrna Georgia Glock via a company e-mail.
QuoteI am a moderator on the 10mmFirearms.com website and frequent various other related sites and it seem there are many experiencing issues with the newer Generation 4 pistols. My interest is with the Glock 20 gen4, trying to help people all over understand/diagnose the issues they are experiencing.
What I think needs to happen is for Glock to setup and observe these issues with the Glock 20 4th generations, using high speed cameras, playback in slow motion, and look for frame flexing, parts bouncing/moving under recoil or other induced stresses with real 10mm ammo, not the stuff at 40S&W ballistics.
I have to wonder if the "new frame design" that uses the various grip inserts, has caused a flexing of the frame with the higher impulsed ammo... ??? Is it flexing causing drag on the slide? Looking for wear on the rails that the slide rides on, may not show up right away if the flex is bowing the frame up or down between the rails.
Then there is the current RSA which is also "new to the 4th Gen", is it part of the problems that so many people are having.
Is it enough for the control of the slide speeds? Is it too much and causing a flex of the frame?
Why is it that the last round is staying in the magazine and not being picked up by the returning slide? Is the slide stop not being held in proper location or is it bouncing at the time the round is trying to pop up, to cause the slide to lock open with rounds in the magazine. (BTW, this was noticed by S&W in their slow motion playback of video, during the development of the 10XX series.)
There has to be a solution, to solve the issues being seen by so many Glock customers! Glocks are great pistols but the latest gen4's have many disgusted.
The Gen 3's have run mostly without issues, my G-20SF has run flawlessly in stock configuration and even with the Wolff 22 non captive recoil rod & 22lb spring, it has also runs well with the LWD 6" 9x25Dillon barrel as tested also. My G-29 also runs flawlessly.
Please find a solution to fix these great pistols...
Thanks,
Wade
NO reply or acknowledgement was ever made back to me from Glock.
We can only hope that Glock will take this issue up and find where these Gen4's are having problems and make them right, Based on previously built models they flat out worked great and that is what customers expect from the New Gen4's! ::)
Quote from: The_Shadow on July 29 2014 08:10:58 AM MDT
He is my outlook on the Gen4 issues...I was in the market for the G-20 Gen4, I over research a lot of stuff, but a great deal came to me on a G-20SF 3Gen and I moved in.
Well that said, I was communicating with various forum members on 6 different forums. I also read about what others were experiencing as they tested, during which, trying to understand for myself what was happening and why. Many I communicated with, tried suggestions of diagnosing the problems, or changing out RSA, and doing things in the attempt of finding a cure, so they could shoot the true 10mm ammo from their guns.
Chuck2 went so far as to send me some of the very ammo he was having issues with, some it was pull-down documented for Q/A put back together, then as per his request, it was shot through my G-20SF without one malfunction. I was even trying some radical stuff, one of my ex-coworkers was teaching a student for CCW that day, he was concerned, why I was shooting like I was. What raised the red flag on the range was, the last few shots, I was shooting gangsta style and also with the gun upside down.
I shot with two hands firm grip, one handed, limp handed, varying the amount of ammo in the two different magazines, used the factory RSA and the Wolff non-captive with 22lb spring, all while trying to keep shots going over the chronograph while standing in puddles of rainwater. Try as I might I could not induce a failure, stoppage of any kind.
Here was the report
QuoteTested the Parabellum Research 165 grain FMJ V-Supreme ammo today, 50 rounds...
My back is still a little sore, it went out last Friday, weather yesterday was horrendous, over 4"+ rain yesterday. Some of the ranges were closed; however I was able to get into one although it was sopping wet. Wind was stiff and moving clouds made some shots not register on the CHRONY.
Here are the results of the range trip, Glock 20 SF.
NO failures of any kind. I did fire 15, 5, 3, 2 from each of two different magazines.
Factory barrel/spring
1290, 1344, 1317, 1340, 1317, 1340, 1280, 1334, 1328, 1191,
1323, 1360, 1380, 1322, 1327, 1324, 1343, 1319, 1331
Factory Barrel Wolff Gun Springs 22lb non captive recoil rod and springs
1295, 1361, 1330, 1335, 1347, 1246, 1342, 1325, 1321, 1333,
1347, 1335, 1328, 1348, 1336, 1333, 1310, 1310
Those were the rounds that registered; I was sort of rushing through this, before anyone else showed up.
Case expansion was 04330"- 0.4340", typical of Glock Factory Barrels.
No problems with this ammo as tested. :D
Here is the link to Chucky2's post; http://10mm-firearms.com/10mm-semi-auto-handguns/g20-gen4-ftf-issues/ (http://10mm-firearms.com/10mm-semi-auto-handguns/g20-gen4-ftf-issues/)
On be have of Chuck2 and the 10mm community of people, I even wrote a letter to Smyrna Georgia Glock via a company e-mail.
QuoteI am a moderator on the 10mmFirearms.com website and frequent various other related sites and it seem there are many experiencing issues with the newer Generation 4 pistols. My interest is with the Glock 20 gen4, trying to help people all over understand/diagnose the issues they are experiencing.
What I think needs to happen is for Glock to setup and observe these issues with the Glock 20 4th generations, using high speed cameras, playback in slow motion, and look for frame flexing, parts bouncing/moving under recoil or other induced stresses with real 10mm ammo, not the stuff at 40S&W ballistics.
I have to wonder if the "new frame design" that uses the various grip inserts, has caused a flexing of the frame with the higher impulsed ammo... ??? Is it flexing causing drag on the slide? Looking for wear on the rails that the slide rides on, may not show up right away if the flex is bowing the frame up or down between the rails.
Then there is the current RSA which is also "new to the 4th Gen", is it part of the problems that so many people are having.
Is it enough for the control of the slide speeds? Is it too much and causing a flex of the frame?
Why is it that the last round is staying in the magazine and not being picked up by the returning slide? Is the slide stop not being held in proper location or is it bouncing at the time the round is trying to pop up, to cause the slide to lock open with rounds in the magazine. (BTW, this was noticed by S&W in their slow motion playback of video, during the development of the 10XX series.)
There has to be a solution, to solve the issues being seen by so many Glock customers! Glocks are great pistols but the latest gen4's have many disgusted.
The Gen 3's have run mostly without issues, my G-20SF has run flawlessly in stock configuration and even with the Wolff 22 non captive recoil rod & 22lb spring, it has also runs well with the LWD 6" 9x25Dillon barrel as tested also. My G-29 also runs flawlessly.
Please find a solution to fix these great pistols...
Thanks,
Wade
NO reply or acknowledgement was ever made back to me from Glock.
We can only hope that Glock will take this issue up and find where these Gen4's are having problems and make them right, Based on previously built models they flat out worked great and that is what customers expect from the New Gen4's! ::)
Thanks Shadow for reporting your research to Glock. I bet they have reviewed your information; especially if it has been presented as you have done above. I am not being facetious or sarcastic....I'm serious. Your attention to detail is fabulous; as well as several others on here.
I researched the G3 v G4 before I purchased mine. I liked the G4; so I ordered one...took almost a year to get it.
I'm not saying, nor have I said these folks have no issues with the firearms.....what I have said is to leap from 'my problem' to Glock Leadership is failing or ignoring the QC problem; that's arrogant. Glock, just like S&W/Ruger/Remington, are not a mom/pop shop....they do have QC controls....do I know them-Nope. Does anyone outside of Glock know-I doubt it very seriously.
I know you have your theory, it may be true; but if it was true, then all G4s should be doing the same thing. But my G4 G20 is operating fine; I know of two more in my area that work fine with the various ammo. I am not aware of any G4s with issues in my area; are there some...couldn't tell ya. I guess what I am saying is, there may be some issues with these folks guns; but it doesn't equate to the G4 G20 line is not up to par and Glock leadership is ignoring the issue.
I hope they find something with Species gun and fix it.
Well, there really are two things here:
1 - 'my problem': Just solely from a 'my problem' perspective, they have not handled the issue correctly. They were informed via the RMA form, and in subsequent conversations, that the problem manifests itself shooting upper mid to high SAAMI spec 10mm ammo. They handled this crucial customer feedback not by having said 10mm ammo on hand, or ordering/making it to test the customer reported issue with (in software dev this would be having relevant to the issue test data rather than just using whatever one happens to have at hand), they instead ignored that and used what we can infer is pretty mild 10mm ammo. I would not say just based on my own singular 'my problem' that this is indicative of a Leadership issue at Glock. It very well could be (as in, maybe the mainline folks really do understand but Glock Leadership has issued an edict stating 'no "special" ((read: what you already have been provided)) ammo will be procured don't even ask'), however one couldn't presume that.
2 - many 'my problem': This is why I say there seems to be a Glock Leadership failure here. Enough of the same problem has been reported that at this point in time, a properly setup RMA system should have flagged this as an issue. By now, when I send a 'How's it going' e-mail, rather than having to ignore it, Glock should enthusiastically be sending back an e-mail saying 'Yes we're aware of customer reports of our Glock Perfection Gen4 G20 using mid to upper SAAMI spec 10mm ammo, we have procured ammo to test with, and are amid testing the issue. We will contact you (bonus points for providing an ETA here) when we have completed our testing.' The opposite of that is happening. Worse, the mainline people should obviously be aware of the issue, and have ammo in the power range producing the issue to use when a pistol with relevant customer complaint comes in, so they can do proper validation/fallout testing. As far as we know (and, we'd know, because if it was happening they'd state it to get themselves off the hook) that opposite of that is happening.
Leadership at all companies is paid the $$$,$$$ and given the ego ride to be Leadership. They're responsible for the proper systems to be put in place, the culture, the oversight, etc. Let me ask this: Precisely what, other than completely sidestepping the Gen4 issue and giving Gen3's rather than actually fixing the Gen4's, is Glock doing that would make you believe Glock Leadership hasn't failed here?
Chuck
Again...based upon
your circumstances you are making a blanket assumption about the QC and leadership at Glock. You may be one out of 100 or 1000; you don't know. Are you having a problem....yes! To blanket say, because they didn't handle it the way you thought it should have been handled, they are ignoring it, is a stretch.
And once again, 'many my problems' is an unknown number. Again, we don't have production numbers to determine if it is widespread or guns manufactured in Jan-Feb 2013 or any other time period. No question, you are having a problems and you have heard others having problems. I've read probably some of the same info; although mine and others I know have no issues to date.
So to assert Glock leadership is intentionally ignoring the problems is ludicrous.
QuoteLeadership at all companies is paid the $$$,$$$ and given the ego ride to be Leadership. They're responsible for the proper systems to be put in place, the culture, the oversight, etc. Let me ask this: Precisely what, other than completely sidestepping the Gen4 issue and giving Gen3's rather than actually fixing the Gen4's, is Glock doing that would make you believe Glock Leadership hasn't failed here?
What does this statement have to do with your firearm? If you are implying, once again, that because they haven't satisfied you, the whole upper leadership is corrupt so they can get the big bucks, inflate their ego??......this makes me chuckle! Your statement above is a very cynical view of corporations. Regarding the G4 G20, Glock has done nothing to make me think they have failed.
I truly hope they get yours fixed.
Quote from: redbaron007 on July 29 2014 11:05:19 AM MDT
Again...based upon your circumstances you are making a blanket assumption about the QC and leadership at Glock. You may be one out of 100 or 1000; you don't know. Are you having a problem....yes! To blanket say, because they didn't handle it the way you thought it should have been handled, they are ignoring it, is a stretch.
No, I'm making an observation based on the feedback of the members who have reported the same issue to Glock. If they were handling it properly, they'd have procured the proper ammo to test with. If they were handling it properly, they'd fix Gen4 issues rather than cover it up with a Gen3. What other way would you look at this? Lets try an analogy as you seem to be caught up in me holding a Billion dollar Corp responsible for actually properly investigating their product: If we sent multiple examples back to Ford RMA (and these wouldn't be stealerships which can be good or suck, this would be actual Ford Corp run RMA) of their Ford Flex failing to run on 89 and 93 octane gas, and they said 'Well we tested and it worked fine', and we then pried out of them that they tested with only 87 octane gas, and we did this multiple times to the same RMA department, would you expect Ford RMA to have an IT system to track issues and collate those issues for similarity? Who would be responsible for making sure such a system existed and worked? Would you expect the Leadership of the RMA department to be aware of the same issues coming into their Front Door, ie oversight? When an escalation was sent detailing the problem with the RMA departments lack of being able to obtain 89 and 93 octane gas to test with, and that escalation was forwarded on, how many months would you expect it would take for Leadership to manage properly responding to that escalation? 3 months? 10 months? What is an acceptable number to you before it becomes a Leadership failure to respond?
QuoteAnd once again, 'many my problems' is an unknown number. Again, we don't have production numbers to determine if it is widespread or guns manufactured in Jan-Feb 2013 or any other time period. No question, you are having a problems and you have heard others having problems. I've read probably some of the same info; although mine and others I know have no issues to date.
That really doesn't matter. What matters is they've been made aware of the problem and have failed to care for it. We know this because if they had actually cared for it, Species OP would never have gone down like that. They have failed.
Why they have failed, only Glock knows (
if they even know, or care to know). I'm not sure why you are wanting to not realize this.
QuoteSo to assert Glock leadership is intentionally ignoring the problems is ludicrous.
No, actually I'm just saying Glock Leadership has failed here. Certainly they have failed to instill a culture of problem solving/problem escalation/problem resolution in their RMA department. We know this from Species OP. Certainly they have failed on escalated issues, as if they hadn't, they would easily be able to e-mail me back (after I have to chase after them, another culture failure on their part) and at least say they are looking at the problem. Circling back, it would seem they have failed to have a proper system setup for their own RMA to be advised of repeated RMA issues, and even worse, failed to provide their RMA with either the requisite ammo needed to test EDIT or the means to request needed ammo to test.
QuoteLeadership at all companies is paid the $$$,$$$ and given the ego ride to be Leadership. They're responsible for the proper systems to be put in place, the culture, the oversight, etc. Let me ask this: Precisely what, other than completely sidestepping the Gen4 issue and giving Gen3's rather than actually fixing the Gen4's, is Glock doing that would make you believe Glock Leadership hasn't failed here?
What does this statement have to do with your firearm? If you are implying, once again, that because they haven't satisfied you, the whole upper leadership is corrupt so they can get the big bucks, inflate their ego??......this makes me chuckle! Your statement above is a very cynical view of corporations. Regarding the G4 G20, Glock has done nothing to make me think they have failed.
I truly hope they get yours fixed.
[/quote]
What do you mean what does it have to do with my/our firearms? We're not talking about properly functioning firearms that aren't sent back to Glock, we're talking about firearms that have already inconvenienced Glock customers and that are at the mercy of the RMA/QA processes Glock Leadership has put in place. I don't know how you got that I think they're taking the money and running, my point is they are paid well and given their position of Leadership (of which in the 10 years at this Fortune 10? 20? whatever I'm at I've not run into one yet that doesn't have an ego) that
it's their job to make sure 1.) that we don't have the problem we seem to be having and 2.) if/when problems do occur they are resolved in a proper and timely manner. Rather than duck my question again, and not using the 'We'll give you a Gen3 because we can't fix the Gen4' option, please tell me
what Glock has done here to
fix the misbehaving Gen4.
You realize they have the links to the threads here right? That they could proactively create an account here, PM the users with their Glock contact info, arrange for us to send our Gen4's back (and cross ship us a Gen3 or Gen4 for use while they look at our misbehaving Gen4), and let us know they're looking at the issue? Has anything like that happened?
It's very odd having this conversation with you...
Chuck
OK - let me shed some light on the inner workings of Glock....or at least what I just experienced. I just spent 15 minutes on the phone with a Glock Triage Armorer. Apparently they are the manager level armorers. This gentleman who will remain nameless to protect the innocent, gave me a wealth of information. I kept asking questions and he kept giving me awnsers. I ended up asking questions that were not even related to my pistol just because he was such a nice guy and knew so much.
Just for the record my pistol arrived at Glock's facility yesterday morning at 10:30. Due to the fact my pistol was new they gave me a return shipping label. I got a call today at 1:30 Georgia time. That is a 27 hour turn around. I think that is pretty impressive, but again this is just my personal experience. Here is what I can share and I will just state the "facts". I am still developing my personal opinion of Glock and their leadership, so I will refrain from commenting at the moment.
#1 - Glock is very much aware of the issues with the Gen 4 G20's. He would not elaborate, but he did state that he has 15 Gen 4's in their facility that are having issues. This is something that Glock is very much aware of from what I can gather.
#2 - Glock is trying to get a hold of high power ammo to test these pistols. They are having a very hard time getting ammo (like the rest of us). They do bulk testing with CCI Blazer ammo, but when pistols are sent in for functionality testing they do in fact test it with high power loads (when they can get them). This gentlemen stated that they have Underwood ammo, buffalo bore, etc in their facility right now but they can't get the quantity necessary to do full scale testing on all the pistols that have been sent back. Just like they rest of us they are only able to get a "couple boxes at a time". Maybe we need to get underwood to send Glock a pallet of ammo so we can get this Gen 4 issue resolved. This gentlemen said they have not been able to get Corbon to even respond to their request for ammo. It is crazy that these ammo manufacturers would pass up an opportunity to supply Glock with testing ammo by the truckload. That being said, I think it is funny that Glock doesn't recommend we shoot those loads, but then they are trying to get this in their facility so they can shoot them ???
#3 - Glock actually does proof testing of all pistols with a "black hills" ammo that is above SAAMI specs. He would not tell me how much above SAAMI specs this proof ammo is, but he said it was "really hot stuff" that is custom made for Glock to their specifications. They test with this above spec ammo to assure there are no catastrophic failures of newly assembled pistols.
#5 - This particular Glock Armorer does not own any Gen 4 guns. He said, "I don't own any Gen 4's.....I will leave it at that" He gave me the "wink wink" on that one.
#6 - Glock has been unable to replicate the failure to feeds in their facility. This is because they can't get enough of the ammo we all shoot..... They do have high speed cameras, but since they have not been able to replicate the issues they have not found a solution. They hope that once they can get enough ammo from Underwood or others that they will be able to diagnose and fix the problem. he said that he believe that their customers are having issues, but they can't fix a problem that they can't recreate in a controlled environment.
#7 - Glock Armorers do care about customer satisfaction, but you have to get past the main line customer service people before you will reach an armorer that will give a care (personal opinion and experience on this one). This guy spent 15 minutes on the phone with me. He didn't have to do that. He also mentioned that he knows this gun is "life and death" and wants to make sure that I am taken care of.
#8 - Glock recommends the #4 followers in G20 gen 4 mags. The new #4 followers are the latest and greatest. Not sure how to get them as you can't buy them. Probably have to call Glock and ask for them.
In a nut shell I have been impressed with how Glock has handled my issue. Granted my gun is brand new and I started bothering them on day 1, but they have been quick to respond. They are going to send me a Gen 3 to my FFL in 5 to 7 business days. This armorer also said he will personally test my Gen 3 gun with what little Underwood ammo they have left to make sure it works. He will also make sure the #4 followers are installed in the mags.
In summary, Glock is aware of the problem, but due to the current ammo shortages they have been unable to procure "high power" ammo to try to diagnose the problems and fix them. I suspect that over the next year or so Glock will have the problem resolved, but in the mean time I would steer clear of the Gen 4 platform.
All of the above is my own personal opinion and experiences, take it for what it is worth (if you ask my wife it is worth very little :D )
Quote from: Species on July 29 2014 02:14:09 PM MDT
OK - let me shed some light on the inner workings of Glock....or at least what I just experienced. I just spent 15 minutes on the phone with a Glock Triage Armorer. Apparently they are the manager level armorers. This gentleman who will remain nameless to protect the innocent, gave me a wealth of information. I kept asking questions and he kept giving me awnsers. I ended up asking questions that were not even related to my pistol just because he was such a nice guy and knew so much.
Just for the record my pistol arrived at Glock's facility yesterday morning at 10:30. Due to the fact my pistol was new they gave me a return shipping label. I got a call today at 1:30 Georgia time. That is a 27 hour turn around. I think that is pretty impressive, but again this is just my personal experience. Here is what I can share and I will just state the "facts". I am still developing my personal opinion of Glock and their leadership, so I will refrain from commenting at the moment.
#1 - Glock is very much aware of the issues with the Gen 4 G20's. He would not elaborate, but he did state that he has 15 Gen 4's in their facility that are having issues. This is something that Glock is very much aware of from what I can gather.
#2 - Glock is trying to get a hold of high power ammo to test these pistols. They are having a very hard time getting ammo (like the rest of us). They do bulk testing with CCI Blazer ammo, but when pistols are sent in for functionality testing they do in fact test it with high power loads (when they can get them). This gentlemen stated that they have Underwood ammo, buffalo bore, etc in their facility right now but they can't get the quantity necessary to do full scale testing on all the pistols that have been sent back. Just like they rest of us they are only able to get a "couple boxes at a time". Maybe we need to get underwood to send Glock a pallet of ammo so we can get this Gen 4 issue resolved. This gentlemen said they have not been able to get Corbon to even respond to their request for ammo. It is crazy that these ammo manufacturers would pass up an opportunity to supply Glock with testing ammo by the truckload. That being said, I think it is funny that Glock doesn't recommend we shoot those loads, but then they are trying to get this in their facility so they can shoot them ???
#3 - Glock actually does proof testing of all pistols with a "black hills" ammo that is above SAAMI specs. He would not tell me how much above SAAMI specs this proof ammo is, but he said it was "really hot stuff" that is custom made for Glock to their specifications. They test with this above spec ammo to assure there are no catastrophic failures of newly assembled pistols.
#5 - This particular Glock Armorer does not own any Gen 4 guns. He said, "I don't own any Gen 4's.....I will leave it at that" He gave me the "wink wink" on that one.
#6 - Glock has been unable to replicate the failure to feeds in their facility. This is because they can't get enough of the ammo we all shoot..... They do have high speed cameras, but since they have not been able to replicate the issues they have not found a solution. They hope that once they can get enough ammo from Underwood or others that they will be able to diagnose and fix the problem. he said that he believe that their customers are having issues, but they can't fix a problem that they can't recreate in a controlled environment.
#7 - Glock Armorers do care about customer satisfaction, but you have to get past the main line customer service people before you will reach an armorer that will give a care (personal opinion and experience on this one). This guy spent 15 minutes on the phone with me. He didn't have to do that. He also mentioned that he knows this gun is "life and death" and wants to make sure that I am taken care of.
#8 - Glock recommends the #4 followers in G20 gen 4 mags. The new #4 followers are the latest and greatest. Not sure how to get them as you can't buy them. Probably have to call Glock and ask for them.
In a nut shell I have been impressed with how Glock has handled my issue. Granted my gun is brand new and I started bothering them on day 1, but they have been quick to respond. They are going to send me a Gen 3 to my FFL in 5 to 7 business days. This armorer also said he will personally test my Gen 3 gun with what little Underwood ammo they have left to make sure it works. He will also make sure the #4 followers are installed in the mags.
In summary, Glock is aware of the problem, but due to the current ammo shortages they have been unable to procure "high power" ammo to try to diagnose the problems and fix them. I suspect that over the next year or so Glock will have the problem resolved, but in the mean time I would steer clear of the Gen 4 platform.
All of the above is my own personal opinion and experiences, take it for what it is worth (if you ask my wife it is worth very little :D )
Great Info...Thx! :)
Species, Thanks for your very detailed post! I light of your conversation, it does seem to be getting the attention it deserves. That is goal of these conversations here sharing of info, and while the conversations tend to warm up it has not ruffled anyones feathers so to speak! Getting the G-20 4th gen fixed is what is on everyones mind, because people have placed their faith in the Glock product, but have been disappointed in the unreliability experienced. Everyone wants them to run like a sewing machine and not miss a stitch.
Also we have lost many good makes of 10mm guns over the years, we don't like losing a any platform for this great cartridge! ;)
Heck, maybe I should load some ammo to the Underwood specs and send it to Glock! The recipes are documented and recorded and tested... :D
Very good to here that Species! If you happen to have to call him again, or, he calls you, I'll be happy to donate my remaining 153 rds of PBR 165gr Velocity Supreme to their cause - although I really doubt 153 rds would help them much. At this point I'd be happy to lend them my Gen4 G20 for a month or three, but it sounds like they have some already.
I very much hope your soon to be Gen3 functions flawlessly!
Wow, what an informative thread. Great opinions and observations here guys. Two differing points of view on how Glock has handled (or not) the situation each with valid points.
As for me, I hope my Gen4 reliability continues to improve. I've shot all my UW and need to order more when it's back in stock to know for sure. Which kinda sucks as I have an RMR that needs a home and want to make sure this guns a keeper before having the slide milled.
Species, thanks for posting. I hope your Gen3 runs flawless - you are certainly due. And btw if that KKM won't work on a Gen3 can I call dibs?!! (insert image of vulture circling here lol).
Quote from: fanninland on July 29 2014 05:37:39 PM MDT
Species, thanks for posting. I hope your Gen3 runs flawless - you are certainly due. And btw if that KKM won't work on a Gen3 can I call dibs?!! (insert image of vulture circling here lol).
:D man, the vultures swoop in pretty quick on this forum! Hopefully the only surplus/non compatible parts I have is my Glockworx gen 4 adapter ring for the Wolff guide rod I just purchased. It only has 50 rounds on it, basically brand new. Once the dust settles I think I could let it go to a good home. ;D
I hope your gun just gets better with age. You being a lefty makes it hard to leave the Gen 4. On the bright side it could give a some "tap/rack/bang" practice. You could be a master malfunction clearer by the time you are done!
An RMR on a G20 would be sweet!
Quote from: chucky2 on July 29 2014 03:22:49 PM MDT
Very good to here that Species! If you happen to have to call him again, or, he calls you, I'll be happy to donate my remaining 153 rds of PBR 165gr Velocity Supreme to their cause - although I really doubt 153 rds would help them much. At this point I'd be happy to lend them my Gen4 G20 for a month or three, but it sounds like they have some already.
I very much hope your soon to be Gen3 functions flawlessly!
The armorer I spoke to said they need thousands and thousands of rounds to just to diagnose an issue. When you think about it they would need to run a couple hundred rounds through all 15 guns they currently have just to get a feel for what is going on. And that is just the start. Then they need a lot more to test fixes and various versions of fixes. They also probably want to run a control test and a variable test so you would need multiple types of ammo. Start adding that up and they need pallets of ammo. There just isn't that much ammo for anyone out there theses days. Makes me feel better that even Glock can't get all the ammo they need. Guys like underwood just can't produce ammo fast enough to keep up with their current customers let alone Glock asking for a bulk order. From what I gathered glock got thousands of rounds from underwood, but it was not enough to recreate the FTF issues enough that they can do anything about it. To Glock thousands of rounds is the same as a "couple boxes" for us normal folks.
But I would be happy to take that ammo off your hands :D
Its not that Underwood can't produce the ammo fast enough, it is the lack of supplies, Brass, Bullets, Powder & Primers.
Supplies are still sporadically coming out to the various companies.
BlackHills is under the ATK umbrella with Federal, Speer and CCI, although the company is separating the Aerospace part.
Quote from: Species on July 29 2014 07:24:47 PM MDT
Quote from: chucky2 on July 29 2014 03:22:49 PM MDT
Very good to here that Species! If you happen to have to call him again, or, he calls you, I'll be happy to donate my remaining 153 rds of PBR 165gr Velocity Supreme to their cause - although I really doubt 153 rds would help them much. At this point I'd be happy to lend them my Gen4 G20 for a month or three, but it sounds like they have some already.
I very much hope your soon to be Gen3 functions flawlessly!
The armorer I spoke to said they need thousands and thousands of rounds to just to diagnose an issue. When you think about it they would need to run a couple hundred rounds through all 15 guns they currently have just to get a feel for what is going on. And that is just the start. Then they need a lot more to test fixes and various versions of fixes. They also probably want to run a control test and a variable test so you would need multiple types of ammo. Start adding that up and they need pallets of ammo. There just isn't that much ammo for anyone out there theses days. Makes me feel better that even Glock can't get all the ammo they need. Guys like underwood just can't produce ammo fast enough to keep up with their current customers let alone Glock asking for a bulk order. From what I gathered glock got thousands of rounds from underwood, but it was not enough to recreate the FTF issues enough that they can do anything about it. To Glock thousands of rounds is the same as a "couple boxes" for us normal folks.
But I would be happy to take that ammo off your hands :D
Wow, thousands and thousands, that I don't have! :) I was thinking if they needed example ammo/loading which producing the FTF, they're welcome to my 153 rds. Otherwise man, I haven't had the opportunity to shoot in
months! :'( I'm shooting it first if Glock doesn't want it! :P
Quote from: Species on July 29 2014 07:24:47 PM MDT
Quote from: chucky2 on July 29 2014 03:22:49 PM MDT
Very good to here that Species! If you happen to have to call him again, or, he calls you, I'll be happy to donate my remaining 153 rds of PBR 165gr Velocity Supreme to their cause - although I really doubt 153 rds would help them much. At this point I'd be happy to lend them my Gen4 G20 for a month or three, but it sounds like they have some already.
I very much hope your soon to be Gen3 functions flawlessly!
The armorer I spoke to said they need thousands and thousands of rounds to just to diagnose an issue. When you think about it they would need to run a couple hundred rounds through all 15 guns they currently have just to get a feel for what is going on. And that is just the start. Then they need a lot more to test fixes and various versions of fixes. They also probably want to run a control test and a variable test so you would need multiple types of ammo. Start adding that up and they need pallets of ammo. There just isn't that much ammo for anyone out there theses days. Makes me feel better that even Glock can't get all the ammo they need. Guys like underwood just can't produce ammo fast enough to keep up with their current customers let alone Glock asking for a bulk order. From what I gathered glock got thousands of rounds from underwood, but it was not enough to recreate the FTF issues enough that they can do anything about it. To Glock thousands of rounds is the same as a "couple boxes" for us normal folks.
But I would be happy to take that ammo off your hands :D
Just thinking out loud here........if they are needing that much ammo to replicate the issues; it makes me wonder whatever the issue is, is it sporadic enough to only know there is an issue; but what is the problem.....i.e. the frame is not capable of handling the higher end ammo, RSA issue, mag/follower issue, slide, feeding ramp or a combination of all the above.
It would be nice to see the results of their testing.
Thanks Species for logging your conversations. It sheds more light onto the issue.
Quote from: redbaron007 on July 30 2014 06:30:24 AM MDT
Just thinking out loud here........if they are needing that much ammo to replicate the issues; it makes me wonder whatever the issue is, is it sporadic enough to only know there is an issue; but what is the problem.....i.e. the frame is not capable of handling the higher end ammo, RSA issue, mag/follower issue, slide, feeding ramp or a combination of all the above.
It would be nice to see the results of their testing.
Also thinking out loud: in my informal malfunction analysis I have pretty much ruled out the feedramp/barrel and recoil spring assembly. I have a KKM barrel and used aftermarket spring assemblies. I could get the malfunction to reproduce itself 100% of the time with the KKM barrel and/or the aftermarket springs and guide rods. I used two different types of guide rods and two different types of springs over the last couple months.
I also don't think it is the followers or springs in the magazines. I used +10% wolff magazine springs and both #3 and #4 followers and the malfunction was 100% with those various parts. I am still curious if anyone has had issues with Gen 4 mags in a Gen 3 gun. Glock now only makes Gen 4 mags so I hope that they are not the issue. All new Gen 3 guns ship with Gen 4 mags. :(
The majority of the parts on the Gen 4 are identical to the Gen 3 so you can pretty much eliminate the internal parts and pieces of the trigger assembly, slide lock, etc. Could be the ambi mag release button, but I find it hard to see how that could cause the malfunction. Unless the ambi catch that is cut into the bodies of the magazine has something to do with the way the follower travels up and down inside the body. I thought about that, but I don't have any Gen 3 mags to compare to my Gen 4 mags. The armorer I spoke to didn't think it was a magazine issue because most of the complaints they get state that the malfunction happens in all the magazines customers have.....
In my mind I am thinking it is the locking block
or the frame. The locking block is part of what forces the barrel to the correct feed angle during the action cycling. if the locking is machined incorrectly or sits in the frame at the wrong geometry I think it could cause improper feed angle. I don't know if the locking block is the same on Gen 3 as Gen 4.....again just me thinking out loud. The frame is definitely different on the Gen 4 and, beside the recoil spring, is the biggest change made to the platform. visually I could not see anything that appear to be a problem. Like I said above, perhaps the well the locking block sits in is not correctly formed and caused problematic geometries. Before I sent my Gen 4 back in I did a non-scientific flex test of the frame using my "brute force meter" and the frame felt pretty robust in all the right places. But I think a very minor amount of flex in the wrong places could cause the issue. Potentially a minor flex in the frame combined with another unknown factor could create the issues as well.
Those are my random thoughts out loud. Definitely not based on any facts, just the many late nights I have stayed up thinking about my problem G20. Like you mentioned, I too would like to see the results of their testing, but obviously we will never know what they find. Maybe a couple years down the road one of us will be on the phone with an Armorer who we catch in a talkative mood and he will spill the beans ;)
They can't need that much ammo to actually replicate the issue. Out of lets say 50 rounds, mine will FTF at least once, if not 2-4x. They shouldn't need a ton of ammo to get high speed captures of what is happening. Now, to make changes and do testing or whatnot, yeah, I can buy it takes thousands of rounds.
Just to update everyone on this situation. I finally got my new G20 Gen 3 a couple weeks ago from Glock. They shipped it to my FFL with a few extra magazines which was a bonus. It took Glock about 2 weeks to get the replacement out the door. Not too bad all things considered. Overall I have to say I am pleased with Glock and how they took care of me. Not so pleased with the performance of my Gen 4, but Glock stood behind their product and made things right by sending me a Gen 3. Will I buy another Glock.....probably not. Am I happy with Glock and their customer service....yes I am.
The Glock armorer who was handling my case called me when they were shipping the pistol out to tell me he personally fired 100-150 rounds of the hottest stuff he could find and the replacement ran perfectly. I appreciated that phone call. He said 25 of the rounds he fired were Underwood 165 grains - that was all they had on hand. The pistol was pretty dirty when I took it out of the box. Not bad dirty, just looked like it had been to a good range session. That made me feel better that Glock took the time to test it out with what little hot ammo they had on hand before sending it out the door. There was not a scratch on the gun, just dirty.
I have not been out to shoot it with any hot loads yet. I have only had the chance to shoot some Armscor range ammo and it worked great. I burned through all my good stuff testing the Gen 4 with various springs, mags, followers, loads, COAL's, etc and haven't had the chance to load up anything exciting. I hope to find some time this weekend to load up a few hundred rounds and get out and test it and see how she runs. I feel a lot more comfortable with the Gen 3 and don't doubt it will perform flawlessly.
Congrats Species! Question: Does your Gen3 have the extended mag release that the Gen4's have?
Quote from: Species on August 22 2014 08:37:48 AM MDT
Just to update everyone on this situation. I finally got my new G20 Gen 3 a couple weeks ago from Glock. They shipped it to my FFL with a few extra magazines which was a bonus. It took Glock about 2 weeks to get the replacement out the door. Not too bad all things considered. Overall I have to say I am pleased with Glock and how they took care of me. Not so pleased with the performance of my Gen 4, but Glock stood behind their product and made things right by sending me a Gen 3. Will I buy another Glock.....probably not. Am I happy with Glock and their customer service....yes I am.
The Glock armorer who was handling my case called me when they were shipping the pistol out to tell me he personally fired 100-150 rounds of the hottest stuff he could find and the replacement ran perfectly. I appreciated that phone call. He said 25 of the rounds he fired were Underwood 165 grains - that was all they had on hand. The pistol was pretty dirty when I took it out of the box. Not bad dirty, just looked like it had been to a good range session. That made me feel better that Glock took the time to test it out with what little hot ammo they had on hand before sending it out the door. There was not a scratch on the gun, just dirty.
I have not been out to shoot it with any hot loads yet. I have only had the chance to shoot some Armscor range ammo and it worked great. I burned through all my good stuff testing the Gen 4 with various springs, mags, followers, loads, COAL's, etc and haven't had the chance to load up anything exciting. I hope to find some time this weekend to load up a few hundred rounds and get out and test it and see how she runs. I feel a lot more comfortable with the Gen 3 and don't doubt it will perform flawlessly.
Very good to hear!
It sounds like it shouldn't have any issues. :D
Fire it up this weekend!!
Species, Glad that Glock made you "the customer", happy with the exchange and hopefully the Gen 3 will run right for you.
I really want to see Glock find the problem with the Gen4's, because many like the feel and use of the new back straps.
The Gen4's also had many new first time buyers interested in the 10mm in particular. :D
Quote from: chucky2 on August 22 2014 09:08:49 AM MDT
Congrats Species! Question: Does your Gen3 have the extended mag release that the Gen4's have?
The mag release is not ambidextrous (obviously) and it is different in look and feel than the Gen 4. Not sure if it is considered "extended" or not. I can post some pics. It is quite prominent and easy to locate on the frame.
Quote from: The_Shadow on August 22 2014 10:20:52 AM MDT
Species, Glad that Glock made you "the customer", happy with the exchange and hopefully the Gen 3 will run right for you.
I really want to see Glock find the problem with the Gen4's, because many like the feel and use of the new back straps.
The Gen4's also had many new first time buyers interested in the 10mm in particular. :D
I really really really liked the Gen 4 for the back straps and the new stippling on the frame. I do miss those features. :(
The dual recoil spring was a waste as I ended up swapping it out almost immediately for a heavier setup.
I would like to have seen if a non captive version, of the factory dual spring RSA would have worked, in the gen4. I am still leaning toward the redesign of the frame, with the replaceable straps, as inducing a flex which may be causing the failures to feed properly with the higher impulse ammo. ???
The non captive Wolff dual 21 lb spring set in my G-29 works very well and the G-20Sf has a non captive single spring also Wolff 22lb. 8)
Quote from: Species on August 22 2014 08:37:48 AM MDT
Just to update everyone on this situation. I finally got my new G20 Gen 3 a couple weeks ago from Glock. They shipped it to my FFL with a few extra magazines which was a bonus. It took Glock about 2 weeks to get the replacement out the door. Not too bad all things considered. Overall I have to say I am pleased with Glock and how they took care of me. Not so pleased with the performance of my Gen 4, but Glock stood behind their product and made things right by sending me a Gen 3. Will I buy another Glock.....probably not. Am I happy with Glock and their customer service....yes I am.
The Glock armorer who was handling my case called me when they were shipping the pistol out to tell me he personally fired 100-150 rounds of the hottest stuff he could find and the replacement ran perfectly. I appreciated that phone call. He said 25 of the rounds he fired were Underwood 165 grains - that was all they had on hand. The pistol was pretty dirty when I took it out of the box. Not bad dirty, just looked like it had been to a good range session. That made me feel better that Glock took the time to test it out with what little hot ammo they had on hand before sending it out the door. There was not a scratch on the gun, just dirty.
I have not been out to shoot it with any hot loads yet. I have only had the chance to shoot some Armscor range ammo and it worked great. I burned through all my good stuff testing the Gen 4 with various springs, mags, followers, loads, COAL's, etc and haven't had the chance to load up anything exciting. I hope to find some time this weekend to load up a few hundred rounds and get out and test it and see how she runs. I feel a lot more comfortable with the Gen 3 and don't doubt it will perform flawlessly.
Glad they got you a Gen 3 replacement. My Gen 3 SF likes the Underwood 165 grain loads.
I had the slide lock back with 1 round left in in the mag (10% Wolff Springs) on a few occasions last night with my Gen 4 and Underwood 165 TMJ.
I ran some 40 S&W right afterwards and had 0 issues. It's strictly a range gun, but I will likely give Glock a call to try and get some #4 followers.
Species, have you been able to shoot your new Gen 3 with hot loads yet?
Quote from: radiotom on August 31 2014 10:38:03 AM MDT
Species, have you been able to shoot your new Gen 3 with hot loads yet?
Not yet... :'( Life has been a little chaotic lately. Hoping to get out tomorrow for a quick trip to the range.
I'm just curious because I used to have a Model 20 Gen 4 that Glock swapped out too. My Gen 3 SF has been great totally stock and also with my KKM 4.6 barrel and Wolff guide rod + #22 spring.
Quote from: radiotom on August 31 2014 10:38:03 AM MDT
Species, have you been able to shoot your new Gen 3 with hot loads yet?
Got the new Gen 3 G20 out yesterday and it seems to be working great. I shot 50 rounds of 180 gr GDHP's loaded 9.3 grains of Longshot. Not super max load, but getting up there. It fed those 100%. the Gen 4 would not take that exact load. This was with my 22 pound spring and KKM Barrel.
I also shot 50 rounds of 180 grain Precision Delta JHP loaded to 1050 fps just to test out a load for my wife to shoot. I put the 24 pound Wolff spring in and it was 100%. I was pleased it fired the "weak" loads with the strongest spring you can purchase from Wolff. The brass still ejected 5-10 feet and I had no issues with short stroking.
The day was not without issues....... :-\ I had loaded up some 200 grain Double Tap WFNGC to near max load using 800-X. I loaded them to 1.250" COAL. These rounds caused FTF's about 50% of the time. It did this with both the stock barrel and the KKM. I also tried the stock spring, a 22 pound spring, and 24 pound spring. All had similar 50% FTF ratios. I am pretty sure it was the bullet and not the gun, spring, or barrel. I have always been concerned about how big the meplat is on the doubletap WFNGC bullets. There is not alot of taper on the bullet and I am sure that is what is causing the issues. I may have to find another hard cast bullet with more taper. I think Buffalo bore uses a hard cast with more taper and may feed better. I think the Double tap bullets are actually made by Beartooth and sold by doubletap under their label.
I shot about 150 rounds and it was 100% with the loads it likes. It hates the WFNGC. I am pleased with the results thus far. I will load up a few other recipes and get them a little closer to max now that I have a comfort level with the gun. I didn't want to go out and go full tilt max load on my first day out with the new gun. I will keep you posted, but I think the Gen 3 is a winner.
Mine likes the 200 grain hard cast loadings directly from DoubleTap (I do not reload yet). Maybe if you download it to about 1150 fps like he does they'll work?
I don't like hearing this because that's one of the first loads I wanted to load up myself, the 200 grain hardcast bullet DT uses at 1200fps. :(
I have 50 WFNGC's left. I am going to try to replicate their factory load and seat the bullet a little deeper as well. Based on some of shadow's pulldowns it looks like DoubleTap's factory load is a little shorter than 1.250. When you put the bullets side by side with a 180 grain gold dot or a 200 grain XTP you can see how little taper the WFNGC's have. Casual observation would lead me to believe they would be more difficult to feed, and my recent experience backed that up.
The funny thing is that my Gen 4 feed that particular load better than the gen 3.....but that is not saying much. The Gen 4 hated everything. My Gen 3 only hates that particular load. :)
I may search through the reloading section and see if anyone has experience with the 200 grain WFNGC's and has had good luck with them.
Double Tap actually had to shorten the COAL to 1.2420" to get that wide Flat Nose to feed more reliably. The tipping angle with the wide nose makes it too long at the normal COAL...
Quote from: The_Shadow on September 02 2014 02:45:34 PM MDT
Double Tap actually had to shorten the COAL to 1.2420" to get that wide Flat Nose to feed more reliably. The tipping angle with the wide nose makes it too long at the normal COAL...
That is good to know. I was given some load data from Double Tap's production manager. They were blue dot and 800-x recipes. He advised me to use 1.250" as the COAL with CCI 300's. Interesting that they seat their factory loads significantly deeper.......they also appear to use Longshot in their factory loads. I actually like Longshot better because I don't have to hand weight each charge like I do with 800-X. I can get longshot to meter almost spot on 100% of the time. I give myself 2/10ths of a grain "fudge factor" and I feel comfortable metering longshot pretty close to book max. I check every 5th round when I am working close to book max. haven't lost any digits yet :)
I know this is a discussion for a different thread, but I wonder what the pressure increase would be going from 1.250 to 1.2420? I had no signs of pressure with 9.3 grains of 800-X, CCI 300's, and my once fired Armscor brass. Primers were in perfect condition, no bulges on the brass fired through the KKM barrel and only very very slight bulging with the stock barrel. I would not even consider them a "smile". Love the KKM barrel by the way :) I may load up my last 50 WFNGC at 1.2420 and back off the powder a tad and see how they feed.