After getting some setbacks in my LAX Ammo reloads:
http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo/issue-with-lax-ammo-this-morning/
Another 10mm owner checked his lot of LAX Ammo and also found a bad one. He posted in the thread where I sent mine to The Shadow for pull-down/inspection to see if we could figure it out:
http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo-pull-downs/lax-180gr-fmj-plated-(ic-51714)-pull-down/msg31449/#new
Plus an earlier mishap with PPU brass:
http://10mm-firearms.com/reloading-10mm-ammo/g20-kaboom-update/msg23811/#msg23811
Every piece of brass contained in those links which showed issues when reloaded were PPU headstamped brass!! :o
So if you buy PPU to shoot on the cheap, shoot it and throw the brass away!! It is not suggested in the least to reload any of the brass and risk a Kaboom :(
I received the rounds from Intercooler; Here is what I found...
Three were deep seated 1.1250" – 1.1595" – 1.1885" PPU cases (Loose bullet fit could not be corrected with pass-thru and regular sizing, not even extra crimping) The PPU brass continued to spring back after sizing, setbacks could be a serious issue.
After "Pass-Thru sizing" and resizing with my RCBS 10mm sizer, these three PPU cases retained a loose bullet fit, the bullets would just fall into the case on one of them, one after seating and crimping I was taking the measurement with the caliper and the bullet would move deeper. The brass is BAD! I have to wonder about those who had "CASE BLOW OUTS" if they happened to get a "Setback" prior to or while the rounds were feeding, thus causing higher pressure condition.
Two that had black on the bullets was a residue that cleaned off, possible polishing compound and media that stuck there.
(https://s20.postimg.org/rovjd6zel/IMG_0366_zpse44cb489.jpg)
I will say I have reloaded some PPU brass, but handloading them on single stage press and checking afterwards for any and all bullet movement is part of my systematic checks...No movement "in or out" and not loose to spin inside the casing. ::)
These that Intercooler sent would hold their resized shape/dimension, opening back up where the 0.4000" sized bullets would not hold.
Gun was a Gen4 Glock G20 - Gun did its job - PPU brass didn't!!!
(http://www.spanielsport.com/photos/i-snD39Mz/0/L/i-snD39Mz-L.jpg)
(http://www.spanielsport.com/photos/i-Nqck23B/0/L/i-Nqck23B-L.jpg)
(http://www.spanielsport.com/photos/i-XrHvHfs/0/L/i-XrHvHfs-L.jpg)
As you can see, I got away with it for other rounds, including a couple of other PPU cases.
(http://www.spanielsport.com/photos/i-mHQSTMH/0/L/i-mHQSTMH-L.jpg)
The case separation occurred with a load I have shot many times before, and many times since without any signs of overpressure. The Glock remained closed and locked during the event. Case failed and destroyed the G20 frame as a consequence. Having that happen in your hand is something you don't forget. I'm just glad it was in my hand, and not a friend or family menber!
Time has past and I'd have to check to be positive, but it cost me $225 to get the gun repaired (frame replaced) if my memory serves correctly.
I DO NOT!!! reload PPU anymore. Brass normally doesn't leave the range. I usually collect it, place it behind my tire, and back over it before putting it in the brass barrel.
They should Berdan prime these cases so fewer would be tempted to reload it.
Greg
MidwayUSA description:
"Since 1928, Prvi Partizan has been producing custom ammunition in Serbia for competition, indoor ranges and big game hunting. Today Prvi Partizan is a modern factory that is shoulder to shoulder with the most well-known ammunition manufacturers in the world. Offering a wide range of commercial and military calibers for hunters and target shooters throughout the world. All Prvi ammunition meets SAAMI standards and is ran through an internal quality management system to ensure 100% customer satisfaction.
Prvi Partizan uses Jacketed Hollow Point bullets in this load that feature a full-length jacket with hollow point. This construction provides deep penetration with controlled expansion, and also enables reliable feeding into the chamber and good function in auto loading pistols. This ammunition is new production, non-corrosive, in boxer primed, reloadable brass cases. "
My one star customer rating at Midway:
I WON'T RELOAD ANOTHER
By Greg
from Wisconsin
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Cons
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I thought I could shoot these and reload them. I was wrong. I had a case head separation on a 6 month old Glock 20. The case showed the gun functioned correctly, the case utterly and totally failed. The Glock is back to the manufacturer for repair, and I'm just glad my hand came through it ok.
Spend the extra and buy something reliable. The few bucks I saved cost me big time.
DON'T RELOAD IT!!!! It won't even come close to SAAMI pressures. I don't think I'll even finish off the two boxes I haven't touched yet. I don't/won't trust them antmore.
Greg
I'm waiting to hear from LAX. I'm thinking maybe I should check the remaining rounds for PPU headstamps and see if they will swap them for rounds of a different headstamp.
I through all my PPU brass in my brass recycling bucket about 2 weeks ago. Looks like I made the right move.
LAX thanked me for the information and gave me a $5 coupon for the PPU rounds. It looks like they will be pulling PPU brass out of the mix!
That's cool to have a coupon, I'm going to find some other brass to rebuild those that were in the PPU brass...
Tried as I might, using both the pass-through and the RCBS sizer made any difference, those cases sprung back and the bullets would just about drop in, even without case mouth expansion. :(
I may try one more experiment, taking the taper crimp die and sizing the top cases without bullets inside to see if they will close up any. I can possibly anneal the cases prior to sizing to see if that will soften the brass to take the springiness out.
I'll let you know what I find out! 8)
9x25?
Well I repulled the reloaded rounds I put back together. I resized and deprimed the two of the PPU cases and here are the results as measured...
(https://s20.postimg.org/p6mdu1wq5/IMG_0412_zps7f280344.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.org/bcy150bul/IMG_0413_zps8bc4c68a.jpg)
Next I did a dirty annealing process on my gas stove, heated the cases till the started to discolor, could have probably heated a little more, water quenched, then resized again with the RCBS sizer and here are the results as measured...
(https://s20.postimg.org/wmlnfy7lp/IMG_0414_zps6cb413e6.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.org/uusol1vyl/IMG_0415_zpsd2dee6e2.jpg)
As you can see they did close up and hold their size better. I was seeing 0.3970" and 0.3975" on other multi fired brass with just resizing.
Intercooler writes;
Quote9x25
I don't think so but if I were to rework them to 9x25 the neck could crack or split, loading them to the level I load at would be taking too much risk even in a fully supported chamber. :o I have one PPU case that is not annealed and could test the results of working it into the 9x25Dillon cartridge... ???
Do you think the PPU brass is too soft, too hard, too thin or just not a good metal?
I think these were hard/brittle and possibly on the thin side...0.0100" thick at the mouth. Their manufacturing process and or alloy are suspect in my opinion. Reloading also work hardens the brass even more.
The annealing process is used to soften the alloy to make in more malleable.
For what it's worth, I had 2 PPU factory rounds split on me. The case seemed thin on the side of the split. This was through a G20 with a KKM barrel. I have reloaded them as lower pressure plinking rounds and had another split with my Witness Match. I'm going to give them a good look over before I reload them again.
A little off-topic, but I just some got a bunch of .40 S & W range brass that had some (a little) PPU in it. Any info on .40? or should it be considered the same quality as 10 mm? Thanks...
You will want to inspect it closely as with any brass for reuse. There have been issues with the PPU 40 brass as well. As you resize you will want to check for bullet to case tension for secure bullet fit. These would not hold the bullets secure with any amount of resizing! After annealing they did hold their resizing dimensions slightly better.
Reloads do pose risk so you are your own quality control... ::)
OK, now that the PPU brass was completely dry from water quenching, after the annealing process yesterday, I reloaded them and this time the reworked brass held firm to the bullets no slipping or spinning, could actually feel the tension during the case expansion (lighter than what I normally use) and also when seating the bullets themselves. Therefore in this investigation the annealing process was a success to softening the brass to retain its resizing.
See Intercooler, I told you I could fix them! :D
That's good news! I will spread the word to send you all the PPU brass for your "special" treatment :o
here is a link to an article on how the cartridge cases are formed and machined...Star Line products are shown.
http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01/04/ammunition_making_brass_101910/ (http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01/04/ammunition_making_brass_101910/)
another article
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2007/06/how-cartridge-brass-is-made/ (http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2007/06/how-cartridge-brass-is-made/)
Hornady Video cartridge cases start at 1:39 in...
I posted about my concerns a while back. I stuck to my decision not to reload the PPU crap. I have only used new Starline brass so far.
http://10mm-firearms.com/reloading-10mm-ammo/reloading-prvi-partazan-brass/
If you want to reload PPU, it a personal decision. I want it to be an informed decision.
As to annealing, that process is for the case necks, not the case head. Softening the case head is not a good thing. I must admit I've never annealed a handgun cartridge because the distance from the neck to the base is so small. Maybe I could have used a shallow pan with water to keep the base cooler. Even though I commonly anneal rifle cartridges, I doubt I'll use it on handgun brass with Starline as reasonable as it is.
Now, back to PPU. Look at the failure of my case. Case head separation that shouldn't be annealed to begin with. Was my bullet set back in the case? I can't prove it one way or the other. I will say that the remaining loaded PPU from that loading tore down with seemingly normal neck tension.
It only takes one bad case to result in a very bad situation. Poor quality control can be catastrophic. PPU defines poor quality control in my mind. I won't be loading any PPU cases again.
Greg
Greg, I'm with you on your decision on not reusing the PPU brass. :o The only reason I annealed these two were to show that the cases being stiff, brittle and not as malleable as they should be. By annealing them, that would restore the malleability at least as much to hold the bullet tight enough. Just an educational learning experiment!
Nothing can correct poor alloy or stampings that were done without proper annealing to allow the metal to be shaped without stressing it in some area. If the case head was stressed (started to tear instead of flow) it may have had micro stress fractures while being stamped.
Quote from: The_Shadow on May 31 2014 05:20:32 PM MDT
Just an educational learning experiment!
I'm glad to hear that.
Greg
I tried to reload some PPU brass but I could not get the case mouth to hold enough tension to keep the bullet from setting way back in the case during the first chambering.
I had the same problem with ppu Tokarev brass. I couldn't get any neck tension with the darned things even without flaring the case mouth. I could push the bullet into the case with my thumb and index finger even with a hellacious crimp and these were the Hornady .309 bullets. I've never had a problem with Starline or S&B Tok brass, but this privi garbage is the absolute worst brass I've ever dealt with and it's a shame because it's so cheap. I did a google search to see if anyone else had a problem with this brass and found this thread. I ended up throwing away 300 tok cases and 250 10mmn cases. If you just want to shoot cheap ammo I guess it' ok in that it goes boom when you pull the trigger, but if you buy it thinking you're going to reload the brass forget about it. You can get severe bullet setback and possibly damage your guns or yourselves with this junk.
I had some PPU 10mm brass that was loaded twice with mild loads bulge, this stuff is garbage.
I fired some PPU factory 44 magnum loads and the brass was thinner than american made casings. After resizing it .430" jacketed bullets were loose inside the casing after seating. I scrapped it along with the 10mm brass.
I loaded some PPU 223 brass a few months ago. I used loads that I had used in other commercial brass so I know the load was fine. After firing, the primers fell out of the case. Apparently, the brass is very soft. No other case, commercial or military had this happen. I threw all of it in the recycle bin.
Wow and to think I almost bought a few boxes than cheaper than dirt at the cost of sub 18.00 for a box of 50 my intention was to reuse the brass ,thanks you for the warning $
I just loaded 50 rounds using PPU brass. Looks like I need to get the bullet puller out!!!
I suffered a casing blow out today with the 380ACP and guess what the case that blew was a MFS the first that I shot was a PPU go figure! :o Had I found that first spent PPU casing I wouldn't have shot the second cartridge...
Quote from: Pumpkinheaver on March 18 2015 09:08:33 PM MDT
I just loaded 50 rounds using PPU brass. Looks like I need to get the bullet puller out!!!
What did you load exactly?
I mean if it's mild shoot it.
If if really hot, shoot it with video running. (OK I'm kidding. Sort of. ;D :o)
Just got back from a gun show and they had mountains of PPU at very good prices but I load all my own rounds and even pickup other people's brass and have people give me there once fired brass so I passed but it's was nice to know I wasn't missing anything by bypassing this ammo thanks to this forum. Craig :)
Wish i had not bought 10 boxes of ppu 762x39 now to reuse the brass. Have not reloaded any yet since i sold the gun it was bought for but now i will probably just recycle the brass. If i shoot it in my ak i will never find it, it throws heavier steel cases at least 15 feet.
RW - You might want to try loading a few rounds first. I've used ppu 308 brass for a while without any problems, but their Tokarev and 10mm brass is absolute garbage.