Cartridge is from Ammo Manufacture: LAX 180gr FMJ Plated (Reloaded)(IC 5/17/14)
Ballistics Information: 10mm Auto
Muzzle Velocity: 1040 fps
Muzzle Energy: 432 ft. lbs .
Brass Make/Headstamp: Mixed Headstamps – Brass/Nickel
Bullet Make/Weight/Construction/Info; Length 0.5785"-0.5845"Dia. 0.4000": Plated 180 FMJ
MEPLAT 0.2500"
Actual weight 180.0 grains Crimp squeezed bullet to 0.3970"
C.O.A.L.: 1.2600" / 1.2610" (DT-RP nickel)
Primer: Brass color
Case: Diameter 0.4220"-0.4235" Crimp Diameter 0.4220" (loose) Length 0.9890"
Powder Description/Positive ID/Type/Charge Weight: IMR SR4756 7.6-8.0 grains
Making Changes to the LAX powder being used for the following reasons...
Originally I looked at this powder and it looked like Power Pistol (these would typically run 1200 to 1230 fps), after further research and studying the why the velocity numbers were so low, IMR SR4756 powder fits much better for the loading data and yield.
Hodgdon shows 180 gr Sierra JHC 7.6 grains at 1155 fps 34,400 psi.
Three were deep seated 1.1250" – 1.1595" – 1.1885" PPU cases (Loose bullet fit could not be corrected with pass-thru and regular sizing, not even extra crimping) The PPU brass continued to spring back after sizing, setbacks could be a serious issue.
I received the rounds from Intercooler; Here is what I found...
Three were deep seated 1.1250" – 1.1595" – 1.1885" PPU cases (Loose bullet fit could not be corrected with pass-thru and regular sizing, not even extra crimping) The PPU brass continued to spring back after sizing, setbacks could be a serious issue.
After "Pass-Thru sizing" and resizing with my RCBS 10mm sizer, these three PPU cases retained a loose bullet fit, the bullets would just fall into the case on one of them, one after seating and crimping I was taking the measurement with the caliper and the bullet would move deeper. The brass is BAD! I have to wonder about those who had "CASE BLOW OUTS" if they happened to get a "Setback" prior to or while the rounds were feeding, thus causing higher pressure condition.
Two that had black on the bullets was a residue that cleaned off, possible polishing compound and media that stuck there.
(https://s20.postimg.cc/rovjd6zel/IMG_0366_zpse44cb489.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.cc/ih3awifhp/IMG_0367_zps77d98b67.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.cc/hrkik5udp/IMG_0368_zps44b52553.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.cc/itup2psml/IMG_0369_zps44db7cd6.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.cc/9m2gm0ta5/IMG_0370_zps37fd9478.jpg)
I didn't look at the headstamp. Were all of them PPU? What do you think happened with the setback and is it related to the PPU brass?
Today I received an e-mail saying they would give me a credit voucher for the bad ones.
The three that were deep set were all PPU brass, even after I ran them through the Pass-through sizer and the RCBS sizer dies the bullets were loose fitting (never even had to run the expander to open the case mouth)(when I say loose i pushed the bullets inside the casing with the caliper while taking a measurement)
If this happened with others who reloaded PPU that had this condition and not notice it, a setback could occur and cause pressure issues.
I will pass this on to LAX. They may need to pull out all the PPU brass :o
IC, I purchased a 250ct ammo can of these from LAX on April 15, but haven't shot or even taken a close look at the rounds yet. Is this about the time you ordered these?
I'll try to check my order for loose seated PPU in the next day or so.
This last can was on the free shipping special which they ran on April 15. Inside the lid is a white sticker with the MFG date.
I would dump all of the rounds out and look for any odd sizes unless you have trays to put them in.
I kind of hate it that I seem to get rounds from different MFG's with issues, but at least we are learning from it. This may prove out the theory that PPU brass isn't up to the task being used for reloads.
This goes with the findings here: http://10mm-firearms.com/reloading-10mm-ammo/g20-kaboom-update/msg23811/#msg23811
It's really looking like we should try to do a sticky as "PPU Brass Not-Reloadable!".
I just bought 250 rounds for $125 at a gun show last weekend. I was dispointed after I bought them to learn that they were only 1040fps. I inspected every round and they seem to be fine.
When I have Chronographed them they tested out higher than the advertised 1040 FPS and the powder charges found support that.
LAX AMMO REMAN 180 FMJ 1040 1,137 1,197 516 573 POWER PISTOL 7.6
If they upped the Power Pistol charge to 8.2gr's which would match the BVAC 180's, it would be about the perfect round to get near real 10mm power without beating the parts up.
BVAC 1006 180 FMJ 1200 1,199 1,231 575 606 POWER PISTOL 8.2
I tested the older and discontinued Texas Ammo Co. 180 XTP last week and it did give true 10mm velocity and power (>600 LBS). When the pull-down was done it was found to have 8.8gr's of Power Pistol. If someone wanted to hit right at the magic 600 LB number 8.5-8.6gr's of Power Pistol should put it right there!
TEXAS AMMUNITION CO 180 HORNADY XTP JHP 1300 1,266 1,316 641 692 POWER PISTOL 8.8
That is good information, IC.
I haven't been able to check all of my Apr 15th order of the LAX 180's, but I did grab a couple handfuls for a quick look tonight. Guess which one of these is a PPU case?
Shadow, thanks for bringing this to our attention. It's served as a reminder to me that it's always a good idea to check ammo before feeding it to your firearm, regardless of where it came from.
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Can we sticky this and change the title to prevent people from reloading PPU brass? It's pretty obvious now it doesn't agree with being reloaded.
Quote from: Intercooler on May 26 2014 04:10:15 AM MDT
Can we sticky this and change the title to prevent people from reloading PPU brass? It's pretty obvious now it doesn't agree with being reloaded.
Perhaps a sticky in the reloading forum would be good.
Did anyone let LAX know of the problems they are having with the PPU? It might be a good thing to do in order to save future shooters the headache.
I put another thread together with everything in the reloading section (maybe sticky?). Everything to date I have also forwarded to LAX. If they just pick the PPU out, I think it will be fine ammo for shooting.
Quote from: Intercooler on May 26 2014 05:02:16 AM MDT
I put another thread together with everything in the reloading section (maybe sticky?). Everything to date I have also forwarded to LAX. If they just pick the PPU out, I think it will be fine ammo for shooting.
Thanks. What is the price on the LAX?
It's $110 for 250: http://www.laxammo.com/ammunition/handgun-reloads/reloaded-10mm-180gr.-250rds-w--ammo-can/22-85
Not bad....thanks!
Just what did it take to fix the PPU brass to actually hold the bullets? ???
Well I repulled the reloaded rounds I put back together. I resized and deprimed the two of the PPU cases and here are the results as measured...
(https://s20.postimg.cc/jfjnyuau5/IMG_0412_zps7f280344.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.cc/pt8r23nfx/IMG_0413_zps8bc4c68a.jpg)
Next I did a dirty annealing process on my gas stove, heated the cases till the started to discolor, could have probably heated a little more, water quenched, then resized again with the RCBS sizer and here are the results as measured...
(https://s20.postimg.cc/mme7ihapp/IMG_0414_zps6cb413e6.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.cc/rl1px0m8d/IMG_0415_zpsd2dee6e2.jpg)
As you can see they did close up and hold their size better. I was seeing 0.3970" and 0.3975" on other multi fired brass with just resizing.
I think these were hard/brittle and possibly on the thin side...0.0100" thick at the mouth. Their manufacturing process and or alloy are suspect in my opinion. Reloading also work hardens the brass even more.
The annealing process is used to soften the alloy to make in more malleable.
Intercooler writes;
Quote9x25
I don't think so but if I were to rework them to 9x25 the neck could crack or split, loading them to the level I load at would be taking too much risk even in a fully supported chamber. :o I have one PPU case that is not annealed and could test the results of working it into the 9x25Dillon cartridge... ???
Making Changes to the LAX powder being used for the following reasons...
Originally I looked at this powder and it looked like Power Pistol (these would typically run 1200 to 1230 fps), after further research and studying the why the velocity numbers were so low, IMR4756 powder fits much better for the loading data and yield.
Hodgdon shows 180 gr Sierra JHC 7.6 grains at 1155 fps 34,400 psi.