I've finally started handloading. The press is a Hornady 007 single stage. The 10mm Auto is the only cartridge I'm handloading. I have the newer Horandy Taper Crimp 3 Die Set item# 546534 (NOT 546533). I set up the seater/taper-crimp die for seating and crimping. I set the crimp level to match 3 different loads of factory 10mm ammo by 3 different manufacturers (Winchester, Hornady, & CCI Blazer Aluminum) that all measured out to the same case diameter (within about .001") at the very top edge of the case. If it matters, the bullets I was loading are 155gr XTP and the cases are brand new Starline. I did NOT size any cases since Starline says you don't have to with their brand new brass. That said, I in no way lubed them either. The die set is brand new. I disassembled all the dies and thoroughly cleaned off all oil that was on them from the factory.
What I presume to be an issue is what seems to me like overkill force that it took me to get the seating/taper-crimp die to release the completed round. I had to slam the press handle with enough force for some rounds that the rim of the case head bent by a couple thousands of an inch. I only had expanded the case mouths just enough to barely get a bullet to start. I'm thinking this can't be normal?
Everything else went fine, near as I could tell, with my beginner experience level.
Good morning,
While its possible the die is faulty, let me back up to the start...
First, you started out good! CLEANING NEW DIES!!! (Most forget that part assuming "its new" whats the point?) It is important as is cleaning them based on usage.
I have a question: Did this seater die produce any ammo correctly?
Second, Lets look at the brass... Measure its length. Just cause its new, dosen't mean its correct... While its generally true straight walled pistol cases tend to grow VERY slowly. So much so, they seldom need to be trimmed. They could be long form the start... Simple check will rule this out. IF OK, lets look at the die.
Concerning pre sized cases, I personally never used new brass as is, I resized it. MANY think as you and let them go as is. Its a choice, I prefer to trust what I do as opposed to any company. Especially when its such a simple thing to resize and know its right.
Third, (You may know this but humor me)the seater die seats the bullet AND crimps the bullet in place. But a taper crimp is not nearly as "aggressive" as a roll crimp. You may simply have the die adjusted down too far. I like to load "dummy" bullets. One for each new projectile and keep them in the die box for die setup. This means using the seater die to seat ONLY. THEN after correct OAL, go back and adj the crimp for proper amount.
I'm thinking the die may simply be adjusted too tightly. As a rule, I seat bullets THEN in an additional set, go back and crimp the bullets. Generally speaking, semi auto rounds can be set up to do both at once pretty easily...
When you adj it, remember, this case head spaces off the case mouth, if you set the taper crimp to sink the mouth into the bullet side, its gone and HS is determined by the rim and extractor... it may work, but is not correct. Set the die so a portion of the case mouth is still detectable with a trained finger nail...;)
Good luck,
CW
Good info CWLongshot, I purchased a set of die spacer rings many years ago (they are still avalible from Redding) in my efforts I set my taper crimp die for proper taper crimps, and use the die spacer ring to lift that die (that way I don't have to continuously re adjust it), with it lifted I use it to seat all my bullets to the proper COAL. When all are seated I remove the Spacer ring to return the die for proper taper crimping with only the bullet seater stem being moved back out so as not to change the COAL while the taper crimp is applied.
I used to have the seater/taper crimp set differently when I was doing the 40 S&W's using one or two spacers when I was doing for various steps. But I picked up a second Seater/Taper Crimp die and use one for 10mm the other for 40S&W now.
Quote from: cwlongshot on July 22 2012 05:24:24 AM MDT
Good morning,
While its possible the die is faulty, let me back up to the start...
First, you started out good! CLEANING NEW DIES!!! (Most forget that part assuming "its new" whats the point?) It is important as is cleaning them based on usage.
I have a question: Did this seater die produce any ammo correctly?
Yes, 10 rounds done to perfection according to my calipers, scales, and vision. ;D 10 rounds that ended up being a PITA as it were. :'(
QuoteSecond, Lets look at the brass... Measure its length. Just cause its new, dosen't mean its correct... While its generally true straight walled pistol cases tend to grow VERY slowly. So much so, they seldom need to be trimmed. They could be long form the start... Simple check will rule this out. IF OK, lets look at the die.
Concerning pre sized cases, I personally never used new brass as is, I resized it. MANY think as you and let them go as is. Its a choice, I prefer to trust what I do as opposed to any company. Especially when its such a simple thing to resize and know its right.
I did measure all of the new cases that I loaded and then a few (I wanted to see if they varied at all from the git go, not to mention what length they were at in the first place). All but one measured out to .987". One was .9875".
Point taken on resizing.
QuoteThird, (You may know this but humor me)the seater die seats the bullet AND crimps the bullet in place. But a taper crimp is not nearly as "aggressive" as a roll crimp. You may simply have the die adjusted down too far. I like to load "dummy" bullets. One for each new projectile and keep them in the die box for die setup. This means using the seater die to seat ONLY. THEN after correct OAL, go back and adj the crimp for proper amount.
I'm thinking the die may simply be adjusted too tightly. As a rule, I seat bullets THEN in an additional set, go back and crimp the bullets. Generally speaking, semi auto rounds can be set up to do both at once pretty easily...
I did load a dummy round for crimp (in this case .423") and COL (in this case 1.260"). Remember, this is the newer Hornady "Taper Crimp" die set (not that you aren't aware, just prefacing what I'm typing next). I purposefully set up the die from the git go to only have the crimp at the top edge of the case mouth reach the .423" case mouth goal I set based on SAAMI spec and what I measured on factory manufacturers ammo. I only continued to adjust the crimp till I reached that mark. Not a hair more. After the first 3 rounds, having such major issues (in my inexperienced mind) I reexamined the crimp with another dummy cartridge setup. I thought maybe once things settled in or something I could back it off a hair and get the same .423" crimp and get rid of the king kong grip the die had on my finished round(s). After I reset it up and made sure no foreign matter was in the die creating a binding (there wasn't near as I could tell using a flashlight and Q-tip) effect it did seem to marginally improve. Only marginally!, but was still literally very difficult.
And yes, I set up seating first and crimping second like the instructions that came with the die set said to do. In case it helps, and for anyone that doesn't know; This die set does not achieve crimping by adjusting the whole die body. The die body gets secured 100% and from there you adjust a crimp adjust screw which the seat adjust screw is threaded into up above. Both the crimp adjust screw and seat adjust screw have separate lock rings. The lock rings lock into place with the help of a rubber washer for the seat adjust, and a rubber o-ring for the crimp adjust. I'll tell ya one thing; Kudos to lock and load quick change die bushings to easily swap between the expander die and the seat/crimp die!
QuoteWhen you adj it, remember, this case head spaces off the case mouth, if you set the taper crimp to sink the mouth into the bullet side, its gone and HS is determined by the rim and extractor... it may work, but is not correct. Set the die so a portion of the case mouth is still detectable with a trained finger nail...;)
Check.
QuoteGood luck,
CW
Thanks. Right now I just hope I get to the point of good luck. My hopes are still 100% though, as I do realize I'm just a beginner. Some trial and error is usually to be expected. :'( Though I'm not sure yet if this "error" is to be expected at all.
OK good, your thorough, this is good. You will be in good shape soon as you are gonna find the problems. ;)
I would take the die apart and see whats inside thats not supposed to be. SOMETHING changed as you got some good bullets out of it before the problems began... I am thinking something is in there jambing up the works... OR something broke. (Unlikely but possible just the same)
If you just use this die what are you using as a re-sizer and what was wrong with the seater die that came with the kit?
CW
Quote from: cwlongshot on July 22 2012 06:29:51 PM MDT
OK good, your thorough, this is good. You will be in good shape soon as you are gonna find the problems. ;)
I would take the die apart and see whats inside thats not supposed to be. SOMETHING changed as you got some good bullets out of it before the problems began... I am thinking something is in there jambing up the works... OR something broke. (Unlikely but possible just the same)
If you just use this die what are you using as a re-sizer and what was wrong with the seater die that came with the kit?
CW
The good rounds I got out of it went through the same crimp issue. I get the crimp I want no problem. Still, right from the git go I've had the issue and even after setting up the die again from scratch along with thoroughly inspecting it, the issue is still there. I was even careful to set the die up to just barely achieve that crimp level (simply SAAMI spec, no crazy stuff). I'll have to take some pics of the die and post them for you to see, it just won't be till later on tonight. I don't think anything is broke. Out of spec maybe, but not broke.
I'm not resizing. It is new Starline brass, that by actual measurement, seem identical.
The die seats and taper crimps at the same time. Nothing is wrong with the seating aspect near as I can tell. I set it up to seat at 1.260" and it so far repeatedly seats to 1.260" for the 10 rounds I've completed, working with the issue throughout. That die just doesn't want to give me the rounds back after a bullet seat and taper crimp.
(thinking out loud) Yea you said that... "NOT SIZING"... For some reason I assumed you had a complete die set anyhow... ;) ;D
Maybe it is time to buy a set of dies and try the seater that comes with the set...
CW
I must have misinterpeted what you said. I do have a brand new complete 3 die set. That 3 die set is the Hornady Series II Titanium Nitride Taper Crimp die SET, item #546534 (not the older but still available Hornady item # 546533 die set for 10mm/40 S&W).
I simply am not using the decapping/sizing die that came with the 3 die SET.
You can see this die set here - http://www.hornady.com/store/3-Die-Taper-Crimp-Sets/ (http://www.hornady.com/store/3-Die-Taper-Crimp-Sets/)
The seat/crimp die they show in their photo is not the one I have in my die SET. It's just a generic photo.
Quote from: REDLINE on July 22 2012 07:06:07 PM MDT
I must have misinterpeted what you said. I do have a brand new complete 3 die set. That 3 die set is the Hornady Series II Titanium Nitride Taper Crimp die SET, item #546534 (not the older but still available Hornady item # 546533 die set for 10mm/40 S&W).
I simply am not using the decapping/sizing die that came with the 3 die SET.
You can see this die set here - http://www.hornady.com/store/3-Die-Taper-Crimp-Sets/ (http://www.hornady.com/store/3-Die-Taper-Crimp-Sets/)
The seat/crimp die they show in their photo is not the one I have in my die SET. It's just a generic photo.
SIMPLE then!!
As I mentioned, set up and try the other die!! If its works fine, look at issues with the other die...
CW
Well, tell me if I'm wrong, which I'm comletely open to, but since my seat/crimp die has a floating sleeve inside that drops down from the main die body when you hold the die straight up and down, I can see that the brass case is not hung up on the brass case body, but rather right at the point it is taper crimped. And since I'm more/less only removing flare put on the mouth of the brass case, that should be all it's doing and simply won't let go of the outside of the case mouth. I don't think sizing would help. And my brass cases have no burr on the outside of the brass case mouth where it's being taper crimped. Either way, the brass cases I'm using are within SAAMI spec and not oversized or something goofy out of "spec." I'll get some pics later and show you what I said above. Also, verifying what I said above, it's clear that the sides of my non lubed brass cases don't have any marks on them suggesting they were contacted by anything. They have the same high polished look the did before I ran them through the die. I will say that the taper crimp operation does leave a shiny ring around the case mouth (a very very fine ring that you have to look closely to even see, where you can see the brass was worked from the taper crimp/seating die).
Quote from: REDLINE on July 22 2012 07:20:06 PM MDT
Well, tell me if I'm wrong, which I'm comletely open to, but since my seat/crimp die has a floating sleeve inside that drops down from the main die body when you hold the die straight up and down, I can see that the brass case is not hung up on the brass case body, but rather right at the point it is taper crimped. And since I'm more/less only removing flare put on the mouth of the brass case, that should be all it's doing and simply won't let go of the outside of the case mouth. I don't think sizing would help. And my brass cases have no burr on the outside of the brass case mouth where it's being taper crimped. Either way, the brass cases I'm using are within SAAMI spec and not oversized or something goofy out of "spec." I'll get some pics later and show you what I said above. Also, verifying what I said above, it's clear that the sides of my non lubed brass cases don't have any marks on them suggesting they were contacted by anything. They have the same high polished look the did before I ran them through the die. I will say that the taper crimp operation does leave a shiny ring around the case mouth (a very very fine ring that you have to look closely to even see, where you can see the brass was worked from the taper crimp/seating die).
You just made me think about slight burs on the case mouths... I know I just read you said there was none.. But did you de burr so you know there is none or are you assuming cause the brass is new?
My suggesting trying the other die is just to rule or or prove out that its simpley the die...
CW
I didn't deburr. Just went by feel.
Closeups of die inards showing the taper crimp thingy that free floats inside the main die body, and the bullet seating shaft that floats inside the taper crimp thingy. Also shows the free floating taper crimp and free floating seating shaft at varying degrees in or out relative to the main die body. Hope these pics help to solve the issue, worst case scenario being they just suck and I should go with other dies. Tomorrow I will call Horandy about the issue, but I'm not holding my breath on an issue fixer.
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s271/glock20c10mm/Taper%20Crimp%20Issues%207-21-12/P1060792-crop.jpg)
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s271/glock20c10mm/Taper%20Crimp%20Issues%207-21-12/P1060825-crop.jpg)
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s271/glock20c10mm/Taper%20Crimp%20Issues%207-21-12/P1060795-crop.jpg)
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s271/glock20c10mm/Taper%20Crimp%20Issues%207-21-12/P1060818-crop.jpg)
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s271/glock20c10mm/Taper%20Crimp%20Issues%207-21-12/P1060816-crop.jpg)
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s271/glock20c10mm/Taper%20Crimp%20Issues%207-21-12/P1060801-crop.jpg)
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s271/glock20c10mm/Taper%20Crimp%20Issues%207-21-12/P1060810-crop.jpg)
Here are pics of the main die body and finished product done in part with this die, along with some brass cases that haven't been loaded yet. Don't know if they will tell anyone anything related to solving the crimp issue, but here they are:
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s271/glock20c10mm/Taper%20Crimp%20Issues%207-21-12/P1060794-crop.jpg)
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s271/glock20c10mm/Taper%20Crimp%20Issues%207-21-12/P1060833-crop.jpg)
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s271/glock20c10mm/Taper%20Crimp%20Issues%207-21-12/P1060842-crop.jpg)
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s271/glock20c10mm/Taper%20Crimp%20Issues%207-21-12/P1060828-crop.jpg)
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s271/glock20c10mm/Taper%20Crimp%20Issues%207-21-12/P1060847-crop.jpg)
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s271/glock20c10mm/Taper%20Crimp%20Issues%207-21-12/P1060844-crop.jpg)
I wish the floating bullet seating stem didn't put rings on the top of my bullets but guess I'll have to live with rings on top of my bullets. :'(
Quote from: REDLINE on July 23 2012 02:25:43 AM MDT
I wish the floating bullet seating stem didn't put rings on the top of my bullets but guess I'll have to live with rings on top of my bullets. :'(
Couple things...
First, the rings... I just want to clarify, your saying they appear only after crimping or after seating?
IF after seating, its the nature of the design. You could "break" the sharp edge inside the die and eliminate the issue.
IF after crimping, could be too long OAL... Cause as I say, the crimps are hardly noticeable... The only way to impress a ring in the bullet it would need to be touching it... If from crimping only.. why is it touching the bullet, with this design it should not. UNLESS the OAL is a bit long. This would/could be your problem.
CW
Second, The crimps are very mild, they are hardly noticeable.
Third, those case mouths do not show burrs, but are sharp, try a couple de-durred and see what this does. (If anything)
Quote from: cwlongshot on July 23 2012 03:38:17 AM MDT
Quote from: REDLINE on July 23 2012 02:25:43 AM MDT
I wish the floating bullet seating stem didn't put rings on the top of my bullets but guess I'll have to live with rings on top of my bullets. :'(
Couple things...
First, the rings... I just want to clarify, your saying they appear only after crimping or after seating?
IF after seating, its the nature of the design. You could "break" the sharp edge inside the die and eliminate the issue.
IF after crimping, could be too long OAL... Cause as I say, the crimps are hardly noticeable... The only way to impress a ring in the bullet it would need to be touching it... If from crimping only.. why is it touching the bullet, with this design it should not. UNLESS the OAL is a bit long. This would/could be your problem.
CW
I don't know since I'm seating and crimping at the same time. I could set the die to not crimp and see how if the rings still turn up. As for a sharp edge in the seater stem, there really isn't one as you can see from the pics. It's kind of like domed inside. I wonder if when the crimp stage begins to take place, maybe the travel being used for crimp is forcing the seater stem into the bullet that doesn't want to seat and further down, leaving sort of a scored circle. OAL is exactly 1.260" like the book load called for. I measured all of them.
QuoteSecond, The crimps are very mild, they are hardly noticeable.
Third, those case mouths do not show burrs, but are sharp, try a couple de-durred and see what this does. (If anything)
Yeah, I pretty much just wanted to get rid of the flare from the expander die, nothing more. The XTP bullets are .400" and the brass at the case mouth is .011"-.0115", so crimping to just get rid of the flare (I was expanding the case mouths to .428") leaves me with the .4225" - .423" I crimped to. And SAAMI spec is .423" so I felt pretty good with that. Some of the factory loads I measured did dip down into the .421" - .422" range. What crimp measurement do you do yours to with jacketed bullets?
I'll have to get a deburring tool and try what you said. Wish I had one to try right now.
Quote from: cwlongshot on July 23 2012 03:38:17 AM MDT
You could "break" the sharp edge inside the die and eliminate the issue.
After reviewing my pics just now I believe you are exactly correct. I was thinking the bullets were contacting the seater stem inside the dome. Evidently they are not and they are contacting on the sharp edge around the dome.
Redline, I use the same die set with my RCBS press. I had to use the seating piece for flat nose bullets to get rid of the 'rings' on Hornady XTP bullets. I felt the concave shape of the other seating piece just didn't 'fit' the shape of the bullet so to speak. I crimp in a separate step using a Lee factory crimp die.
Quote from: EdMc on July 23 2012 06:26:01 AM MDT
Redline, I use the same die set with my RCBS press. I had to use the seating piece for flat nose bullets to get rid of the 'rings' on Hornady XTP bullets. I felt the concave shape of the other seating piece just didn't 'fit' the shape of the bullet so to speak. I crimp in a separate step using a Lee factory crimp die.
Did you
ever use the Hornady die I'm using to crimp?
If so did there seem to be an issue with the die wanting to keep the loaded round, fighting you to get it back?
Just got off the phone with Lonnie Hummel at Hornady Mfg. Co. about this crimp issue.
He assured me that what I described should not even remotely be happening. After asking me a few questions Lonnie told me it was nothing I did and was clearly a fault of the die. He asked me to send this die set back and they would virtually immediately get a new die set out to me or fix the one I have.
Considering the issue so far, I'm happy. Sucks that it happened at all, but since they are being 100% cordial about it I'm not going to sweat it assuming the issue ends up being resolved with the replacement set. I'll report back on how the replacement die set does after I get it.
I loaded a small number of rds to test some loads using one-step seating and crimping. Did not have the problem you described. When loading some others later I increased the crimp amount and deformed a case. I'd bought the Lee FCD for total resizing by then, so I just began seating the bullets with the Hornady die and using the Lee die for crimping. I've seen/read the recommendation to crimp as a separate step in numerous places. I want to say Lyman recommends this and doesn't sell dies that do both. I could be wrong.....
Quote from: EdMc on July 23 2012 06:26:01 AM MDT
Redline, I use the same die set with my RCBS press. I had to use the seating piece for flat nose bullets to get rid of the 'rings' on Hornady XTP bullets. I felt the concave shape of the other seating piece just didn't 'fit' the shape of the bullet so to speak. I crimp in a separate step using a Lee factory crimp die.
Silly me! I didn't realize that the other seating piece was in the die box till I removed the small foam pad it is stored under. I just thought that foam piece was there, for I don't know what. :-[
Anyway, when I get the replacement set from Hornady I'll know and use it.
Quote from: EdMc on July 23 2012 12:59:59 PM MDT
I loaded a small number of rds to test some loads using one-step seating and crimping. Did not have the problem you described.
Was there any resistance in the least? Or was it that after the crimp stage
(seating and crimping at the same time) they dropped back down from the die via press handle operation with no resistance at all?
Glad you have figured out the issue. Sounds great with the CS @ Hornady too! Kudos to them.
You should be good to go shortly.
CW
"Was there any resistance in the least?"
Just a little on the down stroke as the crimp is applied and nothing of note on the release or up stroke. I do like the split ring locking nut on the Hornady dies. Good to hear of their customer service, as I also use one of their case trimmers (for.308) as well. Stick with it and you'll find reloading to be a rewarding pastime.
Quote from: cwlongshot on July 24 2012 03:25:01 AM MDT
Glad you have figured out the issue. Sounds great with the CS @ Hornady too! Kudos to them.
You should be good to go shortly.
CW
Shortly sure does seem like eternity right now. :(
Quote from: EdMc on July 24 2012 06:28:03 AM MDT
"Was there any resistance in the least?"
Just a little on the down stroke as the crimp is applied and nothing of note on the release or up stroke. I do like the split ring locking nut on the Hornady dies. Good to hear of their customer service, as I also use one of their case trimmers (for.308) as well. Stick with it and you'll find reloading to be a rewarding pastime.
That's what I was hoping you'ld come back with. Talk about a nightmare I just went through during my very first handloading experience.
No question I expect a rewarding pastime
shortly. :D
Quote from: REDLINE on July 23 2012 02:25:43 AM MDT
I wish the floating bullet seating stem didn't put rings on the top of my bullets but guess I'll have to live with rings on top of my bullets. :'(
I had the same issues using a seating/crimping die. It deformed my HPs, gave inconsistent OAL, took excessive force to operate, and on occasion would buckle brass. Got tired of it, and started seating and crimping in different steps with different dies. No more issues
I'm curious to find out the consistency of the dies I'm using. Well, when Hornady gets a working die set back to me that is. The 10 rounds I loaded so far with the bad die set were 100% consistent. Hopefully I can get through more than 10 sometime sooner than later.
From what I hear Hornady Dies aren't worth the money. I've had zero issues reloading with Lee dies for 10mm, .308, and .243
Are Redding dies worth the money?
For what it's worth, I usually buy RCBS dies. Someone I knew long ago opened a gun shop close by and was selling Hornady reloading equipment so I thought I'd give him a little business. Since then I've bought two sets of Hornady dies but haven't used either long enough to say how they last long term.
That's a tough call...
When asked I list Redding first and given my furthers I wil choose them first. BUT I own more RCBS than any other. They do the same job. To my eye the finish is better and the polish inside is defineately nicer.
I also like ther comp die sets better than other companies.
Hornady now makes a very. Ice die set too. The seater is a good design. Lee also uses it in there Neck sizer die set.
CW
The times when I have encountered sticking during seating/crimping has always been the result of a bit too much flare. It leaves a bit of a scratchy ring around the edge of the case mouth. It doesn't take much to be too much bell I have found -- at least with my RCBS seat/crimp die. They look just like the case mouth in the photos above where there is a semi-rough ring around the edge of the case mouth. Reducing the bell a tad bit cleaned up the problem.
Also, excessive force when seating and crimping is an indication of a bit too much crimp. If a heavy crimp is desired (I don't recommend this for 10mm), then seating and crimping in separate steps is preferable, in my opinion.
Quote from: Taterhead on July 28 2012 01:58:15 PM MDT
The times when I have encountered sticking during seating/crimping has always been the result of a bit too much flare. It leaves a bit of a scratchy ring around the edge of the case mouth. It doesn't take much to be too much bell I have found -- at least with my RCBS seat/crimp die. They look just like the case mouth in the photos above where there is a semi-rough ring around the edge of the case mouth. Reducing the bell a tad bit cleaned up the problem.
Also, excessive force when seating and crimping is an indication of a bit too much crimp. If a heavy crimp is desired (I don't recommend this for 10mm), then seating and crimping in separate steps is preferable, in my opinion.
I was expanding the case mouths to .428". I crimped them down to .423". Most of the factory loads I have measured out to a crimp of .421"-.422".
At .428" of flare I felt like I was only just barely able to hand-seat bullets into them before running them through the die.
Do you think .428" was too much flare?
Quote from: REDLINE on July 28 2012 05:01:20 PM MDT
Quote from: Taterhead on July 28 2012 01:58:15 PM MDT
The times when I have encountered sticking during seating/crimping has always been the result of a bit too much flare. It leaves a bit of a scratchy ring around the edge of the case mouth. It doesn't take much to be too much bell I have found -- at least with my RCBS seat/crimp die. They look just like the case mouth in the photos above where there is a semi-rough ring around the edge of the case mouth. Reducing the bell a tad bit cleaned up the problem.
Also, excessive force when seating and crimping is an indication of a bit too much crimp. If a heavy crimp is desired (I don't recommend this for 10mm), then seating and crimping in separate steps is preferable, in my opinion.
I was expanding the case mouths to .428". I crimped them down to .423". Most of the factory loads I have measured out to a crimp of .421"-.422".
At .428" of flare I felt like I was only just barely able to hand-seat bullets into them before running them through the die.
Do you think .428" was too much flare?
I think you asked me the same question and I never answered you...
Frankly, I don't know, I don't mike mine. :o I flair the case only enough to allow the base of the bullet to start. If it looks like a trumpet, it too much. You onlu want to open the case enough to allow seating the bullet, even then, Jacketed bullets require very little "belling"... Cast bullets need a tad more as they will shave off otherwise... ALSO, I carefully hit all case mouths with "space ship" de burring tool.
CW
Educated guess? .005" flare. You could see it, but I don't think I'ld call it a trumpet either. Still, looking for experienced opinion and/or fact. I was hoping to get my replacement die set today but it didn't happen, though it would have been some record turn around time if it would have. Hopefully by Tuesday I'll be up and going again.
I will have to mike mine and see.
I flare a miniscule amount on the rare occasion I load jacketed. For lead, a bit more else I get shaving of the lead.
I'll be curious to see what you come up with.
I'm loading some today, If I remember, I'll mike mine too...
Starting to load the 200G cast bullets. Once I find a load I'll move to the 550 and turn out a thousand or so.
CW
UPDATE:
OK,
I miked, as I loaded 25 pcs.
The resized diameter at the mouth average is .418, after a trip thru the expander die, its average diameter at the mouth, is .424. Once the bullet is seated and crimped the final diameter average is .4205. Rememberer, this is with Remington Nickle brass and my .401 dia 200g lead bullets. A jacketed bullet will likely have a slightly smaller diameter.
CW
Thanks for taking the time to measure. I can't wait to get a set of working dies back from Hornady to see how things work out then, and compare to the measurements the rest of you show.
Got the dies back from Hornady. The seating/crimping die is night and day difference better. But, they still are mildly reluctant to let me have the finished round back.
In the meantime I also ordered up a Redding die set. Holy smoothness!!! The reloading process is now a joy and I will never use the Hornady seat/crimp die that I have again.
Also worth mentioning; The Redding expander die is much less agressive than the Hornady model I have. It boils down to the Redding expander die doing the expanding at a much more gradual pace. Besides that, the Redding seat/crimp die is much more gradual in crimping, making that a smoother operation.
On top of that, when you factor in the more refined working surfases of the Redding dies, all is exponentially smoother yet. Love'em! No more die issues. :D
Good deal, glad to hear you got your issues sorted out even with a different set of dies.
Thanks. Me too. That 2 weeks of sitting dead in the water sucked, as at the time I still didn't have the Redding die set. Hopefully all MAJOR holdups are over with.