For self defense or other. What is the most devastating ammo you can use?
Thanks,
P
Underwood 155gr Gold Dot @ 1500 fps
Good weight, high speed, great bullet
I second the motion. 155 G/D Underwood.
+1 on that. XTP might get you a little more penetration but the GD will be around an inch.
I think we have some converts ;D
Way back I was on the Wagon ;)
Devastating meaning?
Shallow penetration with lots of temporary cavity and tissue stretch?
Deep penetration with permanent wound channel measured in feet?
A combination of the two with a medium weight bullet?
?? :-\
Definitely Underwood. After that it depends do you want shallow penetration and more energy dump or more penetration and a little less energy dump. I prefer the Underwood 180 GDHP @700 ft lbs and 17" of penetration although I also have some Underwood 165 GDHP @ 800 ft lbs energy and 12" of penetration.
I do think the 165 offers the best combination of penetration and expansion.
The 165 grain loads in .40 short and weak having been doing well in police shootings.
My go to .40 round. The .40 Golden Saber 165.
Way new to this forum; and there are many others here with respected points of view and wisdom established by years of experienced who I readily defer to.
However, since original post asked for an opinion. As an experience hunter (deer, hog, bird, etc.) life long firearm enthusiast I'll float a possible candidate....
I'm beginning to wonder if a 155gr. 10mm Barnes HP traveling at 1450-1500fps, carrying 700lbs+ energy with reported penetration of denim & 10% ballistic gel @ 15" - 20" and fired into flesh and bone isn't the answer to original question.
Quote from: Rojo27 on March 09 2014 02:53:38 PM MDT
Way new to this forum; and there are many others here with respected points of view and wisdom established by years of experienced who I readily defer to.
However, since original post asked for an opinion. As an experience hunter (deer, hog, bird, etc.) life long firearm enthusiast I'll float a possible candidate....
I'm beginning to wonder if a 155gr. 10mm Barnes HP traveling at 1450-1500fps, carrying 700lbs+ energy with reported penetration of denim & 10% ballistic gel @ 15" - 20" and fired into flesh and bone isn't the answer to original question.
Your contribution is welcome here. We don't have any posting snobs on 10mmfirearms. 8)
The 155 grain Barnes would no doubt be devastating.
Underwood 200 xtp, nosler 200 doubletap, buffalo bore 155 barnes, and the 200+gr hardcast loads over 1000fps have got to be the most devastating. In no particular order
Quote from: Rojo27 on March 09 2014 02:53:38 PM MDT
Way new to this forum; and there are many others here with respected points of view and wisdom established by years of experienced who I readily defer to.
However, since original post asked for an opinion. As an experience hunter (deer, hog, bird, etc.) life long firearm enthusiast I'll float a possible candidate....
I'm beginning to wonder if a 155gr. 10mm Barnes HP traveling at 1450-1500fps, carrying 700lbs+ energy with reported penetration of denim & 10% ballistic gel @ 15" - 20" and fired into flesh and bone isn't the answer to original question.
I like your way of thinking there. I haven't seen any manufacturers offering this but if you were to do you own loads than that would be a devastating round. I saw a video where someone had handloaded a 180 grain hst to 1,300 fps and that was pretty amazing looking. Would love to see some HST options hit the market.
The Factory Ammo Master Sheet on this forum shows real world chrono test of Buffalo Bore 155gr Tac-Xp hitting 1446 feet per second and 719 lbs energy out of a 4.75" barrel.
Interesting side note: Raggedyman (with a little assist from Intercoller) just posted video of a reassembled Buffalo Bore 155 Tac pull down fired into gel which hit 1376fps and penetrated about 14".
I also caught the hand loaded 180 grain HST video you mentioned and agree; that bullet pushed to full bore 10mm speeds is a VERY, VERY bad boy >:D. The HST is just an incredible concept in my view and I use in my EDC 9mm and the .45 in the night stand.
The ones I make myself!
105 grain DRT at 1800 FPS :o
Guys;
By "devastating" I simply mean when shot into ballistic gel or tissue will render the most overall damage. By "damage" I mean will disrupt and harm the biggest area of the target.
In Youtube TNoutdoors9 gel testing, the fastest did some of the more minimal damage (Underwood 135gr Noslers at a whopping 1,600 fps and 760+ ft/lbs.). If you look at all of his 10mm test arguably the best results (of HIS testing) appeared to me to be the Hornady 180 gr. XTP round. Here is the footage:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X6vNZTbF7s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X6vNZTbF7s)
Anywho, let me know your thoughts. I have no particular horse in the game, just looking for input.
Thanks,
Pat
Pat
Quote from: Buckeye 50 on March 27 2014 07:27:38 PM MDT
Guys;
By "devastating" I simply mean when shot into ballistic gel or tissue will render the most overall damage. By "damage" I mean will disrupt and harm the biggest area of the target.
In Youtube TNoutdoors9 gel testing, the fastest did some of the more minimal damage (Underwood 135gr Noslers at a whopping 1,600 fps and 760+ ft/lbs.). If you look at all of his 10mm test arguably the best results (of HIS testing) appeared to me to be the Hornady 180 gr. XTP round. Here is the footage:
I read your clarification as focusing on overall combination of length/width of permanent cavity (tissue disruption), penetration depth, and energy transfer.
IMHO:
Buffalo Bore 155gr TAC-XP (1st choice if projectile moving 1400 fps)
Other notables:
Underwood 200gr XTP (200gr XTP projectile moving around 1200-1150 fps)
Lyman Devastator 156gr.
Underwood 165gr Gold Dot (165gr gold dot projectile moving around 1350-1400 fps)
180gr Hornady XTP
I still really like the 180gr gold dots moving 1250-1275 fps... So call it Ted Nugent 180gr Speer.
Any on this list would damn sure turn a BG's smile upside down.
Buckeye. That U/W 135 or say Nugent's 135 Nosler for that matter are frag nasty and good application for crowded/urban surroundings. Apt dwellers etc. Hate to be on the business end of that.
I disagree on the 135gr in any loading. Even if its better for not going through walls you need to put down what you are shooting and with less than 12" on all of em and some of those barely get 8" its not enough. Need to reliably make incapacitating hits or its just a flesh wound. Thise bullets come apart in gel. There is no chance of making it through a rib and going deep enough to hit something.
Quote from: mag360 on March 29 2014 03:50:21 PM MDT
I disagree on the 135gr in any loading. Even if its better for not going through walls you need to put down what you are shooting and with less than 12" on all of em and some of those barely get 8" its not enough. Need to reliably make incapacitating hits or its just a flesh wound. Thise bullets come apart in gel. There is no chance of making it through a rib and going deep enough to hit something.
How about this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdB8yo085Sw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdB8yo085Sw)
Greg
Its not a reliable bullet weight in 10mm. That heart test doesnt change that. The all coppers which are light dor caliber are different since they dont fragment.
What about all the rounds that are DESIGNED to fragment?
If you come un-invited in the middle of the night to my house, you will be greeted by a pistol filled with 135g Noslers. I'm not Police. I don't need to shoot through car doors of windshields. Fragmentation isn't a bad thing in all situations, and in my house there are positives.
If you aim for center of mass and the bullet strikes in a vital part of the target, how much of the time won't 8" get to those vital organs?
If you don't choose light bullets, fine. That doesn't stop them for being a valid choice for some of the rest of us.
Greg
Any projectile and type from 77gr-230gr is going to pass through drywall and wood. The only issue I see with the 135's are the excessive muzzle blast in a confined space. Lighter weight bullets with bigger powder charges seem to always exhibit those characteristics. I personally see nothing wrong with a good 155gr GD or Barnes... even a Winchester Silvertip would be good for the home.
I think with fragmentation going thru dry wall /wood, it will be minimized. Depending on age of dwelling and materials. I have seen and I am sure others where drive by shootings occurred that innocent bystanders were cut down by the 9mm. It's personal defense. And with the 10mm and not a alot of past cases of DGU, it's important to choose the bullet concerning surroundings and one that the carrier feels right with. I also see U/W's 150's in a Nosler bullet.
I don't see anybody volunteering to be shot with a 10mm 135.
Then again, I don't see anyone volunteering to be shot with a .380 either.
I say carry what your gun is reliable with, and what you are most comfortable with. Shot placement is the most important thing.
Also, every bullet has its' purpose. The 10mm 135 could make a nice home defense round, but might not be the best load for a highway patrol agency, or any police agency which makes a lot of motor vehicle stops.
To each his own.
I ran the test with drywall and plywood using a Crossfire Sinterfire 125gr fragmenting round. Still trucking 50 yards out!
If only I had a location to do some at night shooting videos of muzzle blast :(
I train in night fire, dim light and night fire with additional Red and Blues activated. I do this with a .45 and 10mm with exception of 10mm with Red and Blues activated. And I use the 135's. Train and more training. Like 4949 said, carry what your comfortable and train with. Muzzle flash is present in both, use to it. The 10 is more but I am use to it. If ones carrying a 10 for DGU, esp in urban or known congested areas, the 135 has it's purpose. I live in a dwelling built in late 1800's with 3 units, 1st 2nd and 3rd floors. Top to bottom. I can more than likely get away with carrying a much heavier bullet in 10mm inside. I been in some newer dwellings where I wonder if one trips and falls against wall if they will end up in next door neighbors dwelling.
I just cant get on board of the 135. All scientific analysis of that loadings wounding points to the conclusion that better options are available. Why not just use the 180gr xtp factory hornady load that penetrates 16-18" and expands real nice with nearly full weight retention.
Also greg said he wont wver have to shoot through glass from a car so the 135gr is ok.
Did you consider being stopped on the side of the road changing your tire and needing to shoot through your car or soneone elses? What about needing to punch through a couch or a threat on the other side of a door?
Why not just carry a bullet with the characteristics that our most knowledgeable folks on this subject tell us to do?
You make valid points Mag360. One can switch up depending where there going etc. Myself, I walk 80% to and fro. The other 20% I am driving. So the lighter bullet is my choice for that 80%. Everybody's
surroundings are different.
Quote from: mag360 on March 30 2014 10:57:39 PM MDT
Also greg said he wont wver have to shoot through glass from a car so the 135gr is ok.
Did you consider being stopped on the side of the road changing your tire and needing to shoot through your car or soneone elses? What about needing to punch through a couch or a threat on the other side of a door?
Why not just carry a bullet with the characteristics that our most knowledgeable folks on this subject tell us to do?
I said that I use the 135g as a
home defense round.
I do carry 155g - 180g
outside the home. I kinda like 180 gold dots.
18" of penetration leads to an exit wound every time with enough bullet energy to do more damage (think unintended warm bodies). That's just not the ticket in my home.
Greg
P.S. - I accept the 135g Nosler is NOT the most devastating, so I suppose the hijack is misplaced.
there is a gel test of one of Shadows cast hollowpoints that I was very impressed with. If you survived the shot, you might not get through the surgury to get those little pieces out. I'm not much into cast stuff, but that was one nasty round!!!
I would like a properly designed, for 10mm 200 grain Federal HST (bonded), the design has long skives that assist the peal back of the petals as they expand...
The 180 grain is a great bullet, offered in the 40S&W and it's performance is great. It is used by many law enforcement departments across the country, but it's not offered in 10mm. Pulled 180's launched via 10mm at 1250 fps have opened to nearly an inch and in some instances more.
Just as Federal has loaded their New Trophy Bonded 180 in 10mm, I'd welcome the 180gr HST and 200gr HST as loaded in 10mm to the 1275 fps velocity we saw from the Trophy Bonded at least.
So here is what I like from a handloading perspective, Federal HST bullets as components in 135gr, 155gr, 165gr, 180gr and 200gr.
Here is the details of the 40S&W offerings, they have a 135 grain as well @ 1150 fps...
Federal Premium Tactical HST .40 S&W 165 Grain Hollow Point
SPECIFICATIONS:
Manufacturer: Federal
Item #: P40HST3
Category: AMMO CENTERFIRE
Caliber: .40 S&W
Bullet Type: HST Hollow Point
Bullet Weight: 165 Gr
Muzzle Energy: 468 ft lbs
Muzzle Velocity:1130 fps
Rounds per Box: 50 Rounds per Box
Federal Premium Tactical HST .40 S&W 155 Grain Hollow Point
SPECIFICATIONS:
Manufacturer: Federal
Item #: P40HST2
Category: AMMO CENTERFIRE
Caliber: .40 S&W
Bullet Type: HST Hollow Point
Bullet Weight: 155 Gr
Muzzle Energy: 463 ft lbs
Muzzle Velocity:1160 fps
Rounds per Box: 50 Rounds per Box
Federal Premium Tactical HST .40 S&W 180 Grain Hollow Point
SPECIFICATIONS:
Manufacturer: Federal
Item #: P40HST1
Category: AMMO CENTERFIRE
Caliber: .40 S&W
Bullet Type: HST Hollow Point
Bullet Weight: 180 Gr
Muzzle Energy: 408 ft lbs
Muzzle Velocity:1010 fps
Rounds per Box: 50 Rounds per Box
165gr tes TN9 gel test
180gr test TN9 gel