I bought my G20 Gen4 new 1 year ago now under GSSF (my 1 year warranty runs out this Friday). Ever since having the pistol, it has had a FTF issue with ammo - since I almost exclusively shoot off the shelf ammo, I guess we could consider that the weak 10 variety...however it was a very occasional FTF. I numbered my mags hoping that it would be one mag but no such luck, it happens to all of them. I also have a KKM .40 conversion barrel, it happens about the same amount of time with weak 10 using that. Thinking perhaps it needed a good cleaning, and/or perhaps the Frog Lube I was using had gotten somewhere it shouldn't, I broke the slide and the frame down to each individual component, save for the mag release spring and mag release, and ultrasonic cleaned the disassembled pieces, taking care not to let any of them touch each other, using a 3:1 distilled water to Simple Green Extreme (the aluminum aircraft safe stuff), followed by a rinse in the sink with hot water and then a good dousing with 91% isopropyl alcohol to get any water out. I then re-lubed with Frog Lube taking care to get none around the firing pin channel area (basically from there forward I lubed, except for inside the slide rails).
At this point it sat for a while since I don't shoot much, until my bud and I went and shot end of Nov. I had ordered 500rds of PBR Premium 165gr target load, figured my ills were solved...could not have been more wrong. I load 10 per mag, and I was having almost every mag have one FTF. Disgusted, I switched over to the .40 conversion and shot some Winchester 165gr target load from Walmart (100 count box), same deal, maybe not quite as bad.
At this point, I sent it back to Glock. They sent it back to me after what they say is running 20 mags of ammo through it via 2 people, even intentionally holding it with like 3 fingers to simulate limp wristing...not one problem according to them.
So I went Monday, shot 3 boxes of 180gr Remington 10, 1 box Armscor 10. Not one FTF. I even held it, barely, very loose in my hands, didn't try and contain the recoil at all, sort of my own version of limp wrist test, and no FTF (that was over 30 I did like that). Thinking that maybe Glock had fixed something and just not told me, out comes the PBR and...same problem (see pictures attached for 3 of the rounds...the last one was the worst, I took pics of it where it was marked up). Curious I dropped the .40 conversion in there and shot maybe 60 rds of the Walmart Winchester, had one FTF.
Help...haha...I am new to this and by no means a gunsmith. Any suggestions?
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/--j-k91xjf7g/UxgHtsoj6pI/AAAAAAAAADE/THI2RP_rumg/w627-h630-no/FirstPBR_FTF.jpg)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-W0a5J-IEay4/UxgH4qWaqBI/AAAAAAAAADM/vij75GQ_SiQ/w882-h839-no/SecondPBR_FTF.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Kk8fO_0Rp4g/UxgIScp8EYI/AAAAAAAAADU/ScRhGvCzRt0/w928-h1118-no/ThirdPBR_FTF.jpg)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-3yzKBKEDhhw/UxgIASrTZaI/AAAAAAAAADc/YMIVFsluWDM/w1172-h1024-no/ThirdPBR_Closeup1.jpg)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-4V-5jfG-yr4/UxgIGDj5DzI/AAAAAAAAADk/s6JACS9L4_I/w1129-h925-no/ThirdPBR_Closeup2.jpg)
Do you have a light attached?
Wow. The Gen 4 is the problem 10mm pistol currently. It seems the fix every owner has corrected it swapping to a Gen 3. Is that an option for you?
Quote from: enidpd804 on March 06 2014 02:54:55 AM MST
Do you have a light attached?
Nope. Only thing I've done to it is install Trijicon HD night sights.
Quote from: Intercooler on March 06 2014 02:58:19 AM MST
Wow. The Gen 4 is the problem 10mm pistol currently. It seems the fix every owner has corrected it swapping to a Gen 3. Is that an option for you?
My warranty is up Friday, and Glock found no problems. I don't know how I'd talk them into swapping for a whole new pistol.
chucky2,
I had the same issue with a Gen4 I bought about a year ago. Sent it back to Glock. They replaced a couple of parts & said it was fine. Issue got worse over a few weeks after I got it back. Sent it back to them a 2nd time. They said nothing wrong but offered me a replacement gun of my choice. I chose a Gen 3. It functions perfectly & I am really happy with it. My favorite pistol of all time.
Here is the post regarding my issues with the Gen 4 http://10mm-firearms.com/10mm-semi-auto-handguns/problems-with-failures-to-feed-with-underwood-ammo-gen-4-glock-20/
Call them & let them know it is not working & you are sending it back.
I don't know if this will make you feel better or worse, but my gen 4 20 had 2 FTF in its first 20 rounds. Over 500 rounds of reloads, Federal, and Underwood later not one more bobble. So they can work.
I just can't understand that, this many people are having issues with the Gen4 G-20's an be user error...like thumb riding the slide, bumping the slide lock or other.
What was changed in the Gen4 pistols? The RSA was changed to make it a captive dual spring arrangement, but was anything else changed? I Don't Know! I was set to purchase the Gen4 G-20, as I watched some of the issues start to pop up, however a great deal on a Gen3 was presented and I moved on that purchase. May have been a great move on my part. Even Glock had a revision of the RSA for the gen4. Aftermarket RSA for the newer gen4's are just starting to hit the market, they may not solve the issues.
Here is something I see with the captive spring system...they seem to fit loose, do they lack pressure at full closure of the slide to maintain positive lock up?
Looking at the way the ammo is sitting in the FTF position seems to indicate, ejecting brass timing may be hampering the pickup feeding of the fresh cartridge.
What can cause issues related to this, are the ejected brass is being held too tightly by the extractor, not being kicked out from under the extractor, thus the fresh round encounters difficulty as it's nose pops up, being pushed to the left side or nose diving into the feed ramp. The extractor maybe wrong one, maybe too tight of fit, totally gummed up extractor & spring, extractor could be damaged, damaged by placing a round in the chamber and letting the slide close so the extractor has to jump over the extractor rim of the cartridge. That can damage the extractor by bending it, or even breaking it.
The breech face of the slide if rough can slow the cartridge from riding up and under the extractor. Damaged casings can be culprit to a tight extractor fit and sliding against the breech face as it goes into battery.
These are things to consider looking over, as you attempt to figure out you problem and diagnose the cure.
Glockmeister now has the RSA's for the Gen 4:
http://www.glockmeister.com/Glockmeister-Stainless-Steel-Recoil-Spring-Assembly-for-Gen-4-G20-and-G21/productinfo/G4SS20CS/
It comes in 17 pounds, 20, 22, and 24 pound weights. It also has some lighter weight springs for whatever reason.
I think my Gen 4 may be alright. I'll know after the next range session. Don't plan on switching to a heavier RSA yet as I heard the Gen 4 RSA handles hotter ammo better than the Gen 3 stock RSA. I like how heavier springs are finally available though.
Gen4 has problems for certain. It might be that its not all, but its not an uncommon issue.
Heavier springs designed around the Gen3 made mine worse, and that was 22# spring. The one pictured in 4949's post looks exactly like what I had assembled. It wouldn't run well with Underwood 135s, which ran just fine with the stock spring. That double spring setup does better stopping the slide than a pretty hard slam with the 22# single spring.
I really haven't spent time at the range for awhile because the weather has been terrible, or else I've been busy. I do have a 24 pounder to try, if that doesn't do it, I may try the Springco recoil reduction setup (different kind of double tension setup) or else just use reloads that run fine (quite strong at a touch over 700 ft-lbs).
If I had to do it over, Gen3.
Greg
Thank you Everyone for your comments!
DavidF: Will read through your thread tonight, thanks for the link!
Blueduck: I do have some Underwood 135 and 165gr Gold Dots, I'm thinking about going to shoot them both just to see what happens with them vs. the PBR. If anything, the Underwood should jam even more I think, since it is higher power.
The_Shadow: I don't think I'm doing any of those things, but I am a beginning pistol shooter, so I try and not have an ego about it and realize it my very well be me. But if I purposely hold the gun, with what is likely weak 10mm to begin with (Remington 180gr and Armscor), in a very loose manner, make no effort to control the recoil, I've got to think that should be worse for a limp wrist scenario than me having a firm grip when shooting the PBR. Unless my having a firm grip is causing me to do something like what you're talking about. I acknowledge that could be it, but I don't remember being aware of myself doing that (for whatever that means).
What do you mean about Glock coming out with a revised RSA for the Gen4 G20's? I'd not heard of that...can you elaborate more on this?
You point out a loose fitting RSA. While mine does fit decent when installing the RSA, after installing the completed slide back into the frame and racking the slide a few times, if you then field strip, the RSA has certainly moved from where it was and does seem a little loose - really what's happened is instead of being in a straight plane front to back and fully seated on the barrel, it has started moving down (in the 90 degrees direction) the barrel attachment point so instead of being seated in the bottom right by the start of the barrel, it is moved sort of like it's going to come off. So in this respect I'd say it is a little looser...but not really knowing anything about pistols, is this expected/acceptable behavior?
4949shooter: I may get one of those, just to try it. Heck I'd get 2, the stock and the 20lb, just to see the difference. Sorta pricey to just go playing...I can swing it without issue just hate throwing $$ at a problem I shouldn't even be having.
Geeman: You're saying what he had linked is what you've already tried? Are you having the same type of issue as me?
Chuck
Chuck, While the recall didn't include the G-20's there was a recall...http://us.glock.com/customer-service/recoil-spring-exchange (http://us.glock.com/customer-service/recoil-spring-exchange) Some actually had the RSA fall out with the slide removal. And many are having issues with the G-20 4th gens which are having the same FTF's like yours.
This is more like what I feel is happening...
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/--j-k91xjf7g/UxgHtsoj6pI/AAAAAAAAACE/jKHZggdWaO8/s379-p/FirstPBR_FTF.jpg)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Kk8fO_0Rp4g/UxgIScp8EYI/AAAAAAAAABg/nKrcvnO7kT4/s126-p/ThirdPBR_FTF.jpg) (https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-W0a5J-IEay4/UxgH4qWaqBI/AAAAAAAAAA4/nvC-ZTYvGZI/s126-p/SecondPBR_FTF.jpg)
QuoteWhat can cause issues related to the picture you posted, are the ejected brass is being held too tightly by the extractor, not being kicked out from under the extractor, thus the fresh round encounters difficulty as it's nose pops up, being pushed to the left side or nose diving into the feed ramp. The extractor maybe wrong one, maybe too tight of fit, totally gummed up extractor & spring, extractor could be damaged, damaged by placing a round in the chamber and letting the slide close so the extractor has to jump over the extractor rim of the cartridge. That can damage the extractor by bending it, or even breaking it.
Have you ever had an empty case remain in the ejection port? Or get trapped bay the closing slide? If yes! This is why I suggest the extractor may be holding the brass too tight, then the fresh round is hitting the expended brass, the fresh round being pushed down or to the side or delaying the closing slide.
You can take the slide off, remove the barrel, then from the bottom slide an empty brass up the breech face so as the ejection rim is under the extractor. You should be able to actually cycle an empty brass from the magazine to the chamber if things are functioning correctly. You are looking to see it it binds up, or has problems being extracted or thrown clear of the ejection port.
I'm just trying to help you to study the problem and possibly find a solution on your own.
The_Shadow,
No no, don't take my reply as my in any way being offended, I wasn't. I'm just saying, I completely could accept it was me causing the pistol to malfunction. Knowing this, when I went Monday to the range, I paid particular attention to not limp wrist, keep my thumbs away from things, etc. Now, I could very well have still screwed up...that I can also accept. I don't think I did, but I'm not even a novice, so it could be that I did. One thing though is, my bud who is a novice .45 pistol shooter (his first pistol), has strong wrists and forearms. Despite being a new shooter, his groupings are very good. When I went to the range with him end of Nov and had the issues, I had him try it...he had the exact same problems. So I'm pretty certain limp wristing and the FTF can be ruled out with the PBR. All the other things you pointed out though, still possibilities.
I have never had an ejection issue with brass remaining...they always get ejected.
I doubt these parts are that expensive...do you know how to replace the ejector? From what I remember when I took everything apart to clean it in the ultrasonic, the ejector was pretty firmly embedded into the trigger assembly, so I just left it all together. I've got a good amount of PBR left. I could replace one, then the other, and see if it makes a difference.
I appreciate the help and advice!
Chuck
Brass gets tossed 12 to 15 feet. I've had it land on the roof of the pistol house on stronger loadings, so I don't think thats an issue.
I do believe its a slide speed issue. I believe the slide has too much speed. hits the end of its travel abruptly and rebounds back under spring pressure. The stronger spring just seems to close the action faster. I feel the round in the magazine isn't fully in place in time, which allows for differences round to round. It is often the type of misfeed that catches the round on the top of the case rather than pushing it up from the rim. Clearing is often pulling the slide back, round pops up, and letting the slide go chambers the misfeed.
Limp wristing IS AN ISSUE, as when the slide reaches the end of its travel so abruptly, there is a big upward snap that must be delt with.
I think there is a catch 22 with the springs. A weak spring lets the slide hit its travel faster/harder. The heavy spring seems to still not stop the slide, and when it rebounds, its under more tension and the slide returns too fast.
I think its a timing issue with heavy loadings. The Gen4 spring is a two spring system, and the solution is going to need to be a two spring setup also. There needs to be a stout spring that slows the slide at the back of its travel instead of allowing a mechanical rebound under spring pressure.
Its been a long winter and I'm sure I have overthought this whole thing without trigger time to prove/disprove my theory. Its not fact, but it is my current thinking.
Greg
I'd be willing to ship my slide to someone who has a scale and a Gen3, just to see how close to each other they are. I'm curious...I can't believe they'd have changed the Gen4 slide to such an extent it wouldn't be very noticable, could they?
The machine purchase where the RSA sits in the gen 4 slide is bigger in diameter that the older generations.
You can see and read about changes here...http://www.udpl.net/glock/20100705G3G4.pdf (http://www.udpl.net/glock/20100705G3G4.pdf)
Wow, I stand majorly corrected. I always though the significant changes where just the RSA and the backstrap for Gen4...there really is a difference looking at that doc. Does it hold true for G20, that document?
Quote from: chucky2 on March 07 2014 01:08:40 PM MST
I'd be willing to ship my slide to someone who has a scale and a Gen3, just to see how close to each other they are. I'm curious...I can't believe they'd have changed the Gen4 slide to such an extent it wouldn't be very noticable, could they?
Gen4 slide on a postal scale, no barrel, no spring weighs 1 lb 1.2 oz.
Greg
If I brought by slide into our local fine southern suburb of Chicago postal office to be weighed, they'd probably go postal on me. :o
Anyone close to Chicago area with a working G20 Gen4?
I had a brand new gen3 20sf with similar problems. Lucky for me I had a box full of spare parts that I started changing out one at a time. Ended up being the ejector. It was out of spec nicking the shell on the way in causing a nose up left side jam. Cheap part. Maybe 10-12 bucks. It might be the pbr has a slightly different shape making things worse. These guns should be very tolerant of different loads. This would explain your empty left in the breach face. Also the gen4 RSA seem to be stiffer than gen 3's. Most of gen3 that have feed RSA problems are with stiffer springs. You might try leaving the gun locked back for few days to lossen it up
Failure to extract/eject could be the RSA as mentioned.
I would contact Glock before your warranty gets too far out of expiration. Let them try to figure it out for you. You still may be a candidate for a replacement gun.
Quote from: orangeride on March 07 2014 10:55:45 PM MST
I had a brand new gen3 20sf with similar problems. Lucky for me I had a box full of spare parts that I started changing out one at a time. Ended up being the ejector. It was out of spec nicking the shell on the way in causing a nose up left side jam. Cheap part. Maybe 10-12 bucks. It might be the pbr has a slightly different shape making things worse. These guns should be very tolerant of different loads. This would explain your empty left in the breach face. Also the gen4 RSA seem to be stiffer than gen 3's. Most of gen3 that have feed RSA problems are with stiffer springs. You might try leaving the gun locked back for few days to lossen it up
I might just go ahead and order a new ejector and extractor, just for the hell of it and replace them one at a time. My problem though isn't an empty being left, it's the new round isn't chambered with the slide in some state of lockback.
Quote from: 4949shooter on March 08 2014 03:37:21 AM MST
Failure to extract/eject could be the RSA as mentioned.
I would contact Glock before your warranty gets too far out of expiration. Let them try to figure it out for you. You still may be a candidate for a replacement gun.
Going to try and go shooting today and I'll bring all of my Underwood...will be interesting to see if the problem gets worse, better, or the same. Based on that I'll call the guy on Tuesday, didn't get a chance to shoot this weekend. :(
Also interesting that another user is having issues like mine, here's his thread: http://10mm-firearms.com/10mm-semi-auto-handguns/glock-20-gen-4/ (http://10mm-firearms.com/10mm-semi-auto-handguns/glock-20-gen-4/). A little different setup, but pretty much the same.
Are you having FTFeed issues with only the last round of the magazine? That is the only problem I am having with mine and very well could be magazine related, but I will know for sure after my next range trip.
Someone suggested replacing the slide stop lever and slide lock spring. I did add an extended slide stop lever, but that didn't fix the problem. Before my last range trip, I removed the slide lock spring to examine it and reinstalled it. Didn't have any issues, but I only had time to fire off 10 rounds using my brand new 10 round magazine.
No, not limited to the last round but I don't remember it ever being the first 2-4 rounds, it's always the latter half of the mag...I always just load 10, easier I think loading that way.
Quote from: chucky2 on March 08 2014 11:40:49 PM MST
I might just go ahead and order a new ejector and extractor, just for the hell of it and replace them one at a time. My problem though isn't an empty being left, it's the new round isn't chambered with the slide in some state of lockback.
Although the empty is being kicked out, is it being held too long, is what I was trying to suggest. Being held tightly by the extractor against the breech face, and it not allowing the next fresh round from being guided to the chamber so to speak. It is striking the ejector with force, but can be held until the slide closes to knock it completely out of the ejection port.
This is why I was suggesting to slide an empty casing under the extractor to check the fit against the breech. You can even cycle empty brass from the magazine to study if they will feed and extract by hand looking for snags or hang ups.
Have you collected some of your brass, to see if it has dents or nicks or damage to them? ???
I have literally one spent 10mm casing. I can always buy another box of Remington 180gr, shoot that, save some casings, and also shoot some more PBR and the Underwood, just to compare ejected casings. I will check once I get some spent brass.
Went to a gun show this weekend with my bud, they had a Glock armorer there. He took all my mags apart and looked at my G20 and noticed two things:
1.) Mag springs on all of them were about an inch shorter than they should be. He stretched them out from the middle outwards. I don't store ammo in my mags, I don't even pre-load them before going to the range, and I hardly even load more than 10 rounds at a time.
2.) Said not to run FrogLube in it, gets into everything (not sure I believe this, I read of lots and lots of guys running it in their Glocks, no problems). Not only that, but when Glock sent my pistol back, they said they clean and lubed it...and I believe them. It was very...non FrogLube feeling. It was like completely dry, not slick feeling at all. He cleaned it a little with a baby wipe and long q tip, greased the slide rails with Tetra.
So after the gun show we shot and I ran 100rds of the same PBR ammo, 10 rounds in the mags at a time, as I've been running. 1 FTF. Prior to this I'd have had like 10 FTF. Ran maybe 40 rounds of Underwood 135 and 165 grain. 1 FTF. Made sure to save some spent brass this time.
He said the springs were supposed to be 6 inches long, starting from the point of the V on the first coil to the end of the spring.
One other thing that I thought interesting: I don't know how pre-Gen4 mags go as far as the inner workings of the mag, however, he was paying particular attention to what looked like binding of my mags as they got up closer to the top of the mag. He even went and checked another Gen4 G20 mag he had there, it did the same thing so he pronounced it normal. But the reason he went and checked was because it did not appear normal to him. I'd be interested in hearing from pre-Gen4 guys on how the piece the bullet sits on in the mag moves from say an inch from the top of the mag to the top of the mag. Is there any binding or hangup at all? It'd be something if these new Gen4 mags that are at least a little different in supporting ambi-mag release have some kind of imperfection in (some of?) them that is sometimes creating a less than smooth progression of the bullet upwards. Might be another reason to explain why it's just us Gen4 guys having problems...
It sounds like instead of stretching your mag springs the armorer should have just replaced them.
Might have been his thing, I don't know. He certainly had a bunch of toolboxes there. While I was waiting me turn for any of the problem guns that he looked it, it was something he did. One dude had springs that were like 1/2 their normal size. Lots of stretching on those... :)
Just so you know it is not just the 10mm...look at this video, there is a lot to see and study with the dynamics!
Wow...I never saw one of those videos before. That frame flex, on a 9mm round no less, is nuts! I wonder what a G20 would look like with something hot in it like 200gr Underwood...yikes!
In this video, the ejector is not kicking the cartridge case up and out from under the extractor, so the casing is carried back towards the barrel with the returning slide. At 0:50 you can see the next cartridge start to pop up, but the spent casing is not clear of the ejection port so it doesn't feed. At 1:16 the cartridge has popped up and feed.
It seems that there is a problem with the ejector! Bent, broken or missing completely. Was this done for the video?
The slide appears to be traveling all the way to the rear, to allow the spent casing to have engaged the ejector.
Then as the slide is moving rearward, the casing is hanging on by the extractor, till it strikes the ejector, it is at that point that the casing should be kicked to the right and upward and out from under the extractor to clear the ejection port.
In the video we don't see the casing exhibit this kick at all.
So in conclusion, is the extractor the problem? I'd say no. However, It is holding the casing, and the casing that fed does slide under the extractor, so it appears to fit.
Is the ejector the problem? I'd say yes.
This is not an ammunition problem.
Did you notice the slide lock as it is bouncing around?
(http://www.glockforum.net/forum/attachments/new-member-welcome-center/756d1353422979-glock-19-gen-4-cycles-will-occasionally-pass-locking-block-glock_parts_diagram2.jpg)
I love the slow motion playback, you can learn a lot from these videos.
Quote from: The_Shadow on March 18 2014 03:39:31 PM MDT
Just so you know it is not just the 10mm...look at this video, there is a lot to see and study with the dynamics!
I want to call attention to the distance between the slide and the top of the frame right over where the magazine sits as the slide hits the end of its travel, especially the last shot shown 15 rounds). Its that downward flex that I think is the issue with the Gen4 G20. I think its made worse by the Gen4 sitting lower (web of the hand closer to the slide) and the increased pulse generated by Underwood and other high performance ammo. That area flexes downward and takes the magazine with it. The slide quickly returns under spring pressure and passes over the next round in the magazine.
That's what my issue is. The slide rides over the top of the next round in the magazine. Clearing it is just pulling the slide back and releasing it to chamber the round that hasn't left the magazine.
Greg
Tested the Parabellum Research 165 grain FMJ V-Supreme ammo today, 50 rounds...
My back is still a little sore, it went out last Friday, weather yesterday was horrendous, over 4"+ rain yesterday. Some of the ranges were closed; however I was able to get into one although it was sopping wet. Wind was stiff and moving clouds made some shots not register on the CHRONY.
Here are the results of the range trip, Glock 20 SF.
NO failures of any kind. I did fire 15, 5, 3, 2 from each of two different magazines.
Factory barrel/spring
1290, 1344, 1317, 1340, 1317, 1340, 1280, 1334, 1328, 1191,
1323, 1360, 1380, 1322, 1327, 1324, 1343, 1319, 1331
Factory Barrel Wolff Gun Springs 22lb non captive recoil rod and springs
1295, 1361, 1330, 1335, 1347, 1246, 1342, 1325, 1321, 1333,
1347, 1335, 1328, 1348, 1336, 1333, 1310, 1310
Those were the rounds that registered; I was sort of rushing through this, before anyone else showed up.
Case expansion was 04330"- 0.4340", typical of Glock Factory Barrels.
No problems with this ammo as tested. :D
What needs to happen is for Glock to setup and observe these issues with the Glock 20 4th generations, using high speed cameras, playback in slow motion, and look for frame flexing, parts bouncing/moving under recoil or other induced stresses with real 10mm ammo, not the stuff at 40S&W ballistics.
I have to wonder if the "new frame design" that uses the various grip inserts, has caused a flexing of the frame with the higher impulsed ammo... ??? Is it flexing causing drag on the slide? Looking for wear on the rails that the slide rides on, may not show up right away if the flex is bowing the frame up or down between the rails.
Then there is the current RSA which is also "new to the 4th Gen", is it part of the problems that so many people are having.
Is it enough for the control of the slide speeds? Is it too much and causing a flex of the frame?
Why is it that the last round is staying in the magazine and not being picked up by the returning slide? Is the slide stop not being held in proper location or is it bouncing at the time the round is trying to pop up, to cause the slide to lock open with rounds in the magazine. (BTW, this was noticed by S&W in their slow motion playback of video, during the development of the 10XX series.)
There has to be a solution, to solve the issues being seen by so many Glock customers!
The Gen 3's have run mostly without issues, my G-20SF has run flawlessly in stock configuration and with the Wolff 22 non captive recoil rod & 22lb spring, it has also run well with the LWD 6" 9x25Dillon barrel as tested also.
Now I'm thinking of curling my pinky finger around the mag base plate on both my G29 & G20 gen 4s' :D
However the main part of the testing was gun functions, I shot singles, double taps and triple taps, testing for any failures that could possibly cause a stoppage. However the Glock-20 SF pistol was flawless in stock configuration and with the use of the non captive Wolff recoil 22lb spring setup using different magazines, loaded with varying amounts of the ammo.
Looks like the flex is greatly reduced when the Glock is
HANDHELD as illustrated here in this Smyrna GA take
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stGoVRKBU1U
Quote from: The_Shadow on March 29 2014 06:23:52 PM MDT
What needs to happen is for Glock to setup and observe these issues with the Glock 20 4th generations, using high speed cameras, playback in slow motion, and look for frame flexing, parts bouncing/moving under recoil or other induced stresses with real 10mm ammo, not the stuff at 40S&W ballistics...
Quote from: ninja on March 30 2014 05:29:59 PM MDT
Looks like the flex is greatly reduced when the Glock is HANDHELD as illustrated here in this Smyrna GA take
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stGoVRKBU1U
Quote from: The_Shadow on March 29 2014 06:23:52 PM MDT
What needs to happen is for Glock to setup and observe these issues with the Glock 20 4th generations, using high speed cameras, playback in slow motion, and look for frame flexing, parts bouncing/moving under recoil or other induced stresses with real 10mm ammo, not the stuff at 40S&W ballistics...
I believe that. My Glock fired fine with the stock spring and the high impulse ammo when fired
one handed. It seems my wrist was able to absorb some of the recoil, whereas with a tight wristed two hand hold the frame absorbed the recoil and flexed.
BTW, Today I submitted this to Glock Smyrna, GA. personally to fuel the search for a solution to the Gen4 problems...
QuoteI am a moderator on the 10mmFirearms.com website and frequent various other related sites and it seem there are many experiencing issues with the newer Generation 4 pistols. My interest is with the Glock 20 gen4, trying to help people all over understand/diagnose the issues they are experiencing.
What I think needs to happen is for Glock to setup and observe these issues with the Glock 20 4th generations, using high speed cameras, playback in slow motion, and look for frame flexing, parts bouncing/moving under recoil or other induced stresses with real 10mm ammo, not the stuff at 40S&W ballistics.
I have to wonder if the "new frame design" that uses the various grip inserts, has caused a flexing of the frame with the higher impulsed ammo... ??? Is it flexing causing drag on the slide? Looking for wear on the rails that the slide rides on, may not show up right away if the flex is bowing the frame up or down between the rails.
Then there is the current RSA which is also "new to the 4th Gen", is it part of the problems that so many people are having.
Is it enough for the control of the slide speeds? Is it too much and causing a flex of the frame?
Why is it that the last round is staying in the magazine and not being picked up by the returning slide? Is the slide stop not being held in proper location or is it bouncing at the time the round is trying to pop up, to cause the slide to lock open with rounds in the magazine. (BTW, this was noticed by S&W in their slow motion playback of video, during the development of the 10XX series.)
There has to be a solution, to solve the issues being seen by so many Glock customers! Glocks are great pistols but the latest gen4's have many disgusted.
The Gen 3's have run mostly without issues, my G-20SF has run flawlessly in stock configuration and even with the Wolff 22 non captive recoil rod & 22lb spring, it has also runs well with the LWD 6" 9x25Dillon barrel as tested also. My G-29 also runs flawlessly.
Please find a solution to fix these great pistols...
Thanks,
Wade
I hope they can find a solution, that will be fixable / doable that will bring back the reliability to the Glock 20 Gen 4 pistols, its a shame that this is taking them this long to determine what is the casue and apply a fix for problems so many have experienced. ???
Hope glock will listen to what we have to say. Hope someone from glock comes here and pokes around.
Well I know for a fact at least one person at Glock knows about this thread, because I e-mailed him it to take a look at my brass pictures. One would hope they'd at least poke around the forum a little, especially since there was at least another Gen4 FTF problem in the same forum (Panda's). Something is up I have to think. Whether Glock is actually officially aware of it or not, who knows. The problem is the 10mm is such a niche round compared to .40 and .45, that when we have problems, we're nats. When they have problems, they're an attorney in your face. Going to ping the guy I e-mailed this thread to back, see if he can take a look at our issues again and maybe escalate the case up to Glock. At this point, it's not an ammo problem. This is a Gen4 issue with real power 10mm, 10mm that is not outside the bounds of what 10mm is supposed to be.
I e-mailed Kevin at Glock back last night asking if perhaps there was another person at Glock we should be contacting. Unfortunately I missed his call to my cell today, both of my parents require frequent medical care and today we were in the doctors, and again unfortunately, we'll be there Monday and Tuesday as well. Worse work for me is nuts, so I can't even call him back. I'm literally on two calls right now, bouncing back and forth between them. The only thing I can do right now is shoot him a hasty e-mail and hopefully get in contact with him next week (but my mom is having surgery on Tuesday morning, so who knows).
Well, I heard back from Kevin at Glock yesterday, we traded a few e-mails. In the end, I believe we arrived at the problem with Glock validating no issues with the Gen4 G20 (or any other troubleshooting they do): They use CCI Blazer to test with (unsure of loading); he said they test with ammo meeting NATA/SAAMI spec, which CCI Blazer does, he confirmed that later. I sent him the link to the PBR site for the 165gr Velocity Supreme I am using, along with the pulildown for it and for CCI Blazer 200gr TMJ on this site, so he can see the difference in power levels.
If the Gen4 G20 is having FTF issues with mid to high power - but within spec - 10mm ammo, I think they're going to have to move past CCI Blazer to do proper validation testing, which was my point in my last e-mail to him. Hopefully he or someone else from Glock will think about the problem we've got here, decide to test with higher power ammo also, and get back to me. The only other thing I think they could do, if they want to test with just weaker ammo, is to qualify the Gen4 G20 for 10mm ammo up to a certain power level. Obviously I think everyone would rather them test with the mid and high power 10mm and make their design work with that, but Corp. are Corp., I know how they work. Lets hope Glock lives up to Glock Perfection rep!
I still wish you good luck getting through this, if they don't look this over with the higher impulse ammo and film it at high speed, then play it back in slow motion they may never grasp what is happening. :-\
The CCI Blazer fits the SAAMI pressure values but is fair piece from reaching the 37,500 psi of full power. Here is why I state this;
Alliant 2006 data shows the 200gr FMJ over 7.7 grains of Power Pistol @ 1,145 fps with a pressure of 35,600 psi (still 2000 psi below the SAAMI MAP for 10mm & only 600 psi above 40S&W SAAMI MAP)
The CCI Blazer 200 FMJ "pull-down" showed 7.2 grains @ 1050 fps (even less pressure and impulse)
Hell, Alliant 2006 data shows the 40S&W using 6.3 of Power Pistol @ 960 fps with a pressure of 33,700 psi
I don't know if this will help you situation but I am trying to show some facts to support your dealings. ???
With what they are testing is not much more than 40s&w loads
Better off buying a 40 and saving money with the cheaper ammo if the 4gen g20 is not up to hot loads
Thanks for the info The_Shadow! I knew it was under the limit by a good amount but to quantify it like that is definitely better!
Glock has a forum now, so I just registered on it and posted: http://id.glock.com/answer/question/view/id/120605 (http://id.glock.com/answer/question/view/id/120605)
If that fails, I'll try calling Corp. and picking Sales or something. Right now I can't help but feel that the Gen3/Gen3SF built up a very good 10mm rep for Glock...one which the Gen4 is quickly destroying. You'd think Glock of all people, with a 'Glock Perfection' motto, would have the biggest interest in quashing that.
Wow! I checked a couple of threads out there, answered a question, and...low and behold, Glock deleted my question to them! WTF?!
I simply asked if Glock could tell me where I could submit feedback to on a testing gap in their RMA QA for G20 FTF - which we've clearly established I think, that it's a gap. They then delete my thread, and then, on top of that, don't even have the courtesy to send me a PM on why they did so.
I guess a call will now be in order. Too bad I live so far away, else I'd just drop in...
How dare you question Austrian engineering. You know, Gaston's hot, young wife designed the Gen 4.
Seriously though, the Austrians can be funny about that stuff, especially in public. What do us silly Americans know about guns, anyway? Even 10mm guns, of which the 10mm caliber, along with the .40, .45, and .357, were all developed in the USA.
Quote from: chucky2 on April 18 2014 10:36:19 AM MDT
Thanks for the info The_Shadow! I knew it was under the limit by a good amount but to quantify it like that is definitely better!
Glock has a forum now, so I just registered on it and posted: http://id.glock.com/answer/question/view/id/120605 (http://id.glock.com/answer/question/view/id/120605)
If that fails, I'll try calling Corp. and picking Sales or something. Right now I can't help but feel that the Gen3/Gen3SF built up a very good 10mm rep for Glock...one which the Gen4 is quickly destroying. You'd think Glock of all people, with a 'Glock Perfection' motto, would have the biggest interest in quashing that.
I just tried to register for that forum. I want to see what you were talking about.