This is going to be primarily a woods gun - prepared for black bears and bad guys. Where bears are present I'm planning to load a hard cast and then a hollowpoint alternating, and where bears are not present only hollowpoints.
Glock 20 Gen 4
KKM Barrel (4.6)
Meprolight Night Sights
Doubletap 200 grain hardcasts
Underwood 180 grain XTP Doubletap 200 grain Noslers
(EDIT:Everything in this list has been ordered, I will have a range report probably in a week or two. I'm not interested in nuclear Underwood loads for this, I'm happy with another 20 grains and 100fps over .40 S&W. This will not stop me from experimenting with nuclear loads once this system is up and running though... ;D)
Any recommendations before I pop on all this? Not going to need to upgrade the recoil spring assembly am I?
Thanks guys.
You *might* need a 22 pound RSA. I would shoot it first and see how it is. The function with full power ammo seems to vary from gun to gun, and/or shooter to shooter.
I'd go with a 3rd Gen 20 if you can find one. Plenty of upgrades available. Also for the barrel I'd stay with the stock barrel. Stock Glock barrels are really very efficient. Hickock45 did a video showing a negligible drop in bullet speed between the shortest block barrels and the longest barrels of the same caliber. Spend the money on getting the trigger smoothed out (not lightened).
Look I have an FBI model S&W 1076 that has been through the Smith and Wesson Performance Center. It is extremely accurate. I also have a Glock 29 with the stock barrel a smoothed out trigger (done by Ghost Glock) and it is almost as accurate as the S&W.
www.gunwatcher.com They have a few up for sale. I run it with the 22lb Wolff spring and steel guide rod. Eat's it all.
radiotom welcome to the forum.
You DON'T want my opinion about getting ANY Glock! ;D
They do not make one single model that feels right in my small short fingered hand. A 1911 feels oh so much better to me.
I 2nd the Gen 3. I bought a Gen 4 & had lots of issues. Glock replaced it with a Gen 3.
There are more options for RSA's available for the Gen 3. A lot of people have good results with the stock springs, but nice to have the ability to tailer to the load. I use a 20lb spring even with soft shooting 10mm in my G20.
Regarding the stock barrels they are great. You might see how well it does with the hardcast first before opting to buy the KKM. Accuracy might be fine with the stock for a 200gr hardcast. Hickock45 had terrible results with 230gr Doubletap in the stock barrel, but good results with a different companies slightly lighter load.
Yea Gandog56, but your going to bash the glock anyway.
Doug
radiotom, Welcome to the forum!
The G-20 Gen -4's have had some issues with the higher impulsed ammo using some of the heavier bullets. Getting one to run correctly may lend itself to tailored ammo that the gun itself likes and functions with. The recoil systems of the Gen-4 is different from the Gen-3's and not many aftermarket RSA choices are available just yet. Take your time to study the choices and find people who are having success with their setups.
Companies like Underwood Ammo would produce a reduced loaded ammo to possible help your gun work with a lower impulse round should you need.
There are so many things that can cause stoppages in the newer Gen-4's, most seem to related to the impulse, slide timing and lockup, but some can be magazine related and cartridge length. Finding a balance of ammo performance with the timing seem to be more exacting that the previous generations.
Best regards! :D
Just like... For everything else, there's MasterCard. :D
(http://pictures.gunauction.com/4214032112/12520362/2382.jpg) <------ 8)
So I have a G20 Gen4, running 21lb spring both with and without glock barrel and kkm standard lenght (4.6"). Consistently shooting 4-6 inches low. I shoot g21 nuts on. Is the G20 G3 have better accuracy?
RadioTom - have you made the purchase yet, if so what are your thougths?
Had a gen 4, sold it and bought gen3. I had problems with the gen 4 shooting hot loads. My gen 3 with 24lbs spring set will eat anything now with no problems.
Quote from: Intercooler on February 14 2014 05:38:17 PM MST
Just like... For everything else, there's MasterCard. :D
(http://pictures.gunauction.com/4214032112/12520362/2382.jpg) <------ 8)
How much does that gun weigh, IC?
Edit: Disregard. I found it.....1200 grams. The Glock 20SF weighs 875 grams and carries how many more bullets? 4 right?
Your Tanfo might make a nice range gun, but try carrying it for a 12 hour duty shift. How about carrying it for a day in the woods, humping up and down mountains and hills in the snow while wearing a pack, along with a rifle and ammunition, calls, and flashlights?
I don't see Glock owners interdicting on Tanfo threads here telling Tanfo owners how great Glocks are, so why the other way around?
Different tools for different tasks.
Lets say you drop the pistol in the sand along a lake. The action is locked open, and sand gets all over.
Tanfoglio is done for the day.
Good chance you can blow the sand out well enough the Glock will function. If not, go to the water, insert Glock, swish it around a bit, and your back in business.
One is a nice, pretty target pistol that may do fine in some settings.
The other is an ugly black combat weapon that is loose enough just about everywhere that no matter what happens, the thing still works.
I have a G4-G20 and it doesn't eat every ammo. It doesn't with a 22lb spring either. Its the extreme upper edge of the hot ammo it has issues with. If given the choice, do Gen3 if your going to do Glock, at least if you want to run the very hottest ammo.
If the pistol isn't going to see abuse, consider something like the Tanfoglio Match for about the same price.
I think Tanfo's holds 14+1, Glocks hold 15+1.
Greg
Taking a Tanfoglio in the woods is like putting silk on a bowling ball, unless it's the Hunter. :))
Quote from: 4949shooter on February 15 2014 03:23:59 AM MST
Quote from: Intercooler on February 14 2014 05:38:17 PM MST
Just like... For everything else, there's MasterCard. :D
(http://pictures.gunauction.com/4214032112/12520362/2382.jpg) <------ 8)
How much does that gun weigh, IC?
Edit: Disregard. I found it.....1200 grams. The Glock 20SF weighs 875 grams and carries how many more bullets? 4 right?
Your Tanfo might make a nice range gun, but try carrying it for a 12 hour duty shift. How about carrying it for a day in the woods, humping up and down mountains and hills in the snow while wearing a pack, along with a rifle and ammunition, calls, and flashlights?
I don't see Glock owners interdicting on Tanfo threads here telling Tanfo owners how great Glocks are, so why the other way around?
It's a first gun and unless I read into it wrong, not decided yet. Would you really let someone here go the Gen 4 route without offering some options. I know you haven't been buried under the snow that far ;D to not have seen them.
We had suggestions of going a Gen 3 instead, so I didn't see a thing wrong with yet another option. Options are good and if the OP didn't like my suggestion I apologize. I would still like to see them with one of the other good running options.
Look forward to my Stock 2. I am having a co worker who makes carbon fiber holsters make one just for the Tanfo Stock 2. Also dual mag pouches. His work is spot on and priced below what one would pay for same product. Pics forthcoming.
OP,
As far as barrel if you go with one of the G20's, you may want to look at a Barsto barrel. In talking with Kevin Underwood (Underwood Ammo), his personal test gun G20 has a Barsto and he tells me he is going to some crazy extremes without showing any pressure signs. His words are that's good and bad! If I were barrel shopping I would go with something like that. I don't think he would ever sell his Barsto barrel ;) If you run the hotter ammo like Underwood I would for sure go with a 20lb + spring in there. Good luck with your decision!
Quote from: Geeman on February 15 2014 04:16:48 AM MST
Different tools for different tasks.
Lets say you drop the pistol in the sand along a lake. The action is locked open, and sand gets all over.
Tanfoglio is done for the day.
Good chance you can blow the sand out well enough the Glock will function. If not, go to the water, insert Glock, swish it around a bit, and your back in business.
One is a nice, pretty target pistol that may do fine in some settings.
The other is an ugly black combat weapon that is loose enough just about everywhere that no matter what happens, the thing still works.
I have a G4-G20 and it doesn't eat every ammo. It doesn't with a 22lb spring either. Its the extreme upper edge of the hot ammo it has issues with. If given the choice, do Gen3 if your going to do Glock, at least if you want to run the very hottest ammo.
If the pistol isn't going to see abuse, consider something like the Tanfoglio Match for about the same price.
I think Tanfo's holds 14+1, Glocks hold 15+1.
Greg
Tanfo's website says 11 round capacity for some reason?
Excuse me for now. I have to go logon on to Witness Talk so I can tell those guys how great Glocks are! ;D
Quote from: Intercooler on February 15 2014 05:03:19 AM MST
Quote from: 4949shooter on February 15 2014 03:23:59 AM MST
Quote from: Intercooler on February 14 2014 05:38:17 PM MST
Just like... For everything else, there's MasterCard. :D
(http://pictures.gunauction.com/4214032112/12520362/2382.jpg) <------ 8)
How much does that gun weigh, IC?
Edit: Disregard. I found it.....1200 grams. The Glock 20SF weighs 875 grams and carries how many more bullets? 4 right?
Your Tanfo might make a nice range gun, but try carrying it for a 12 hour duty shift. How about carrying it for a day in the woods, humping up and down mountains and hills in the snow while wearing a pack, along with a rifle and ammunition, calls, and flashlights?
I don't see Glock owners interdicting on Tanfo threads here telling Tanfo owners how great Glocks are, so why the other way around?
It's a first gun and unless I read into it wrong, not decided yet. Would you really let someone here go the Gen 4 route without offering some options. I know you haven't been buried under the snow that far ;D to not have seen them.
We had suggestions of going a Gen 3 instead, so I didn't see a thing wrong with yet another option. Options are good and if the OP didn't like my suggestion I apologize. I would still like to see them with one of the other good running options.
I am not knocking Tanfo's by any means. My last name ends in a vowel, and as such you would be hard pressed to hear me knock an eyetalian product anyway.
Just making an observation though, and you haven't answered my question....why all the Glock hate from Tanfo owners, but none vice versa?
It's a legitimate question..
I never hated on the Glock in here. I posted a picture without any Glock or other reference.
If you feel one of the other models by any MFG (not just Tanfo or Glock) is in a trend of issues for sure post it up! Our communication here will save someone a headache! If you have never experienced what frustration comes from something that is problematic I can't explain that to you. Having been down that road it really takes the wind out of your sails wanting to shoot. That is until you sell it and feel even worse about a loss you just took.
This isn't the first time this has happened here with the whole Tanfo/Glock thing. As noted it is always the Tanfo owners who seem to be against Glocks, but Glock owners are indifferent to Tanfo's. I also had looked on your facebook page a while back when you posted it, and there was a lot of Glock hatred there as well.
I don't understand it, really.
Either way, I am not going to grill you on it anymore (25 years as an LEO tends to make you do that, just ask my wife :D) but there is an observation out there. I have had other Glock owners from this site comment to me on private email on it, so I am not the only one to notice.
I just thought you might like to know. ;)
I feel ya ;) As many as you had e-mail or PM you, I have also had people asking me about other options behind the scenes and in the open too. If you ask me, I will only tell you the truth.
One thing is for sure, I don't hide like a Turtle. I'm open to debate either way openly or behind the scenes. We all have opinions and I'm no different. Feel free to stop by the Facebook page anytime you want and even post up why the Tangfo is not good.
Quote from: Intercooler on February 15 2014 06:40:56 AM MST
I feel ya ;) As many as you had e-mail or PM you, I have also had people asking me about other options behind the scenes and in the open too. If you ask me, I will only tell you the truth.
One thing is for sure, I don't hide like a Turtle. I'm open to debate either way openly or behind the scenes. We all have opinions and I'm no different. Feel free to stop by the Facebook page anytime you want and even post up why the Tangfo is not good.
Don't put words in my mouth, friend.
The Tanfo has it's faults just like the Glock does, but I never said it wasn't "good."
Switching gears. I posted up a thread on the Glock board for us to debate so this can get back on topic.
Looking forward to seeing you there! I'm actually looking forward to the responses good or bad.
Nothing to debate.
Glocks and Tanfo's are both good. They do have their different applications though.
I decided to swap out the Underwood HP's for some Double Tap 200 Nosler HP's. We'll see how the Gen 4 likes that. I didn't realize that Underwood loads the nuclear stuff. I'm not interested in nuclear loads...I'll save those for my .44 Magnum Super Redhawk. Double Tap seems to load those 200's right under full power which sounds more like what I was going for with my 10mm setup (black bears and people, not grizzlies). I'll let ya'll know if I run into any issues.
Radiotom, let me apologize for the way things went down here. I'm sure things will settle out between those two...
Sorry you were placed in the middle of that unneeded bickering.
Do you currently own the Glock 20 Gen 4 factory & KKM Barrel (4.6) barrels? You mention about loading for it...
The Glock gen 4 is new and aftermarket RSA are far and few between, therefore tuning of the slide for the higher impulse ammo has presented a challenge. This will change I'm sure. Many are still trying to dial in the system.
I am still studying the purchase of the RSA I want for my Glock Gen 3.
I feel that these captive recoil springs used on the Glocks while OK with most factory ammo, just doesn't apply enough pressure during lock up. I change my Glock 29 to the Wolff Gun Springs brand of non-captive dual spring RSA with an assortment of recoil springs and it has performed fantastic with the 21lb set of springs, even at Underwood level ammo.
In studying the gen-4 situation it seems that they too are not getting enough lock-up pressure from the stock captive RSA to insure positive lockup for the duration of the higher impulse ammo. These guns have a good deal of mass in their slides which is the main thing to their design. The lower impulse commercial ammo will run OK with the factory RSA.
These guns work with the amount of dwell time the slide and barrel remain locked, the stronger non-captive RSA may help to control this to a point! The semiautos are very dynamic with respect to their performance. Tuning them takes time and experimentation, this can get costly with ammo cost and parts as you seek the solution to get things the way you want.
Good luck in your decisions and if you find solutions be sure to let those who seek answers know what works. :D
The gen4 I owned gave me problem after problem, started many posts about it. I sold it and bought a 3rd gen SF. I am running 24lbs spring and things have been a lot better. I too have thought about after-market barrel but I do not reload so didn't feel there was much point to it.
Keep us posted!
MT10mm, there are some trade-offs to using that heavy recoil springs which I'm sure you have noted. That being it is tougher to rack your slide...if you are using this as a carry pistol for self defense it can pose issues clearing a jam, stovepipe or other.
Some of the recoil spring makers do preach about this as a warning. Finding that balance of ammo performance and the correct spring combination make it worthwhile. :D
I must be lucky - I own 2 glocks 20sf gen 3 - 29sf gen 3 They have ingested every thing I have put in them - hungry devils ;D Now I will say one thing, I have no interest in pushing the limits of my Glocks - I save that for my MC. I also load my own to what I need for hunting and EDC. That being said - all pistols or semis have there own quirks and based on what you want and want to put up with is your decision - and belive me Glock have certain quirks. but I feel that their easier to deal with and correct - cheaper also - the gen4's not so good the gen3 seem to have most all the bugs taken care off - The Glocks where designed to be a field combat gun - just like the original 1911Colts wwII stile- from there with after market parts the sky is the limit for both of them. I'ed say go for the gen 3 just from what I've read about the gen4's. If Glock is your choice.
Doug
Quote from: MT10mm on February 15 2014 09:40:12 AM MST
The gen4 I owned gave me problem after problem, started many posts about it. I sold it and bought a 3rd gen SF. I am running 24lbs spring and things have been a lot better. I too have thought about after-market barrel but I do not reload so didn't feel there was much point to it.
Keep us posted!
What ammo did you have problems with? Was it only the Underwood nuclear loads?
Quote from: The_Shadow on February 15 2014 09:18:05 AM MST
Radiotom, let me apologize for the way things went down here. I'm sure things will settle out between those two...
Sorry you were placed in the middle of that unneeded bickering.
Do you currently own the Glock 20 Gen 4 factory & KKM Barrel (4.6) barrels? You mention about loading for it...
The Glock gen 4 is new and aftermarket RSA are far and few between, therefore tuning of the slide for the higher impulse ammo has presented a challenge. This will change I'm sure. Many are still trying to dial in the system.
I am still studying the purchase of the RSA I want for my Glock Gen 3.
I feel that these captive recoil springs used on the Glocks while OK with most factory ammo, just doesn't apply enough pressure during lock up. I change my Glock 29 to the Wolff Gun Springs brand of non-captive dual spring RSA with an assortment of recoil springs and it has performed fantastic with the 21lb set of springs, even at Underwood level ammo.
In studying the gen-4 situation it seems that they too are not getting enough lock-up pressure from the stock captive RSA to insure positive lockup for the duration of the higher impulse ammo. These guns have a good deal of mass in their slides which is the main thing to their design. The lower impulse commercial ammo will run OK with the factory RSA.
These guns work with the amount of dwell time the slide and barrel remain locked, the stronger non-captive RSA may help to control this to a point! The semiautos are very dynamic with respect to their performance. Tuning them takes time and experimentation, this can get costly with ammo cost and parts as you seek the solution to get things the way you want.
Good luck in your decisions and if you find solutions be sure to let those who seek answers know what works. :D
Yessir, my apologies to radiotom and the others for knocking this thread off track. I thought of this earlier and should have apologized sooner.
At any rate, we can all agree on one thing....10mm is best! 8)
Quote from: radiotom on February 15 2014 10:12:03 AM MST
Quote from: MT10mm on February 15 2014 09:40:12 AM MST
The gen4 I owned gave me problem after problem, started many posts about it. I sold it and bought a 3rd gen SF. I am running 24lbs spring and things have been a lot better. I too have thought about after-market barrel but I do not reload so didn't feel there was much point to it.
Keep us posted!
What ammo did you have problems with? Was it only the Underwood nuclear loads?
It was only with UW 220gr.
I have a Gen 3-G 20SF that has run all types of full power ammo with No problems, all hand loads but very top end with stock springs.
Sean
Quote from: radiotom on February 15 2014 07:36:02 AM MST
I decided to swap out the Underwood HP's for some Double Tap 200 Nosler HP's. We'll see how the Gen 4 likes that. I didn't realize that Underwood loads the nuclear stuff. I'm not interested in nuclear loads...I'll save those for my .44 Magnum Super Redhawk. Double Tap seems to load those 200's right under full power which sounds more like what I was going for with my 10mm setup (black bears and people, not grizzlies). I'll let ya'll know if I run into any issues.
Sometimes we concentrate on what something can't do, rather than what it can do. If your loading your own, you will easily find very strong loads that run fine. It seems that 650 ft-lbs works, 700+ can cause issues with my Gen4 w/ aftermarket springs. I'm still messing with springs, and the jury is still out, but the stock spring/stock barrel might be as good as it gets.
Besides, the G4 grip is nice in comparison to the G3.
Greg
HHMMMMM - I wonder if the Gen3 slide will fit the Gen4 bottom ??? or use the adapter in the Gen4 and use the Gen3 springs - something to think about.
Doug
Quote from: ShadeTreeVTX on February 15 2014 07:48:28 PM MST
HHMMMMM - I wonder if the Gen3 slide will fit the Gen4 bottom ??? or use the adapter in the Gen4 and use the Gen3 springs - something to think about.
Doug
I have G3 springs in 20, 22, and now 24#, as well as the adapter bushings to make them fit the G4.
The stock dual spring seems to keep the slide from slamming into the frame better that the heavier single G3 springs, but that's just my perception. I will say that 135g Underwood works with the stock setup, but won't feed at all with the 22# spring.
I wish the weather would allow more trigger time, but its been a nasty cold, snowy winter. My theory is the slide rebounds under spring pressure, causing both a breaking of the wrist, as well as returning quick enough the next round in the magazine hasn't fully reached the proper position.
Maybe a Springco recoil management system, else just live within the limitations. I've already put enough money into an ugly black plastic pistol.
Greg
The gen 4 seems to have too many issues right now. I'd get the 20sf gen 3. You don't necessarily have to get an after market barrel especially right off. Maybe wait on that one, I wouldn't buy a 4.6 inch barrel to replace my 4.6 inch barrel. You may want a 6" later, who knows? Doubletap has always been really overpriced. Underwood is the hottest thing around but it is safe. I've never felt like I'm putting myself at risk or my gun is being badly abused. An upgrade for either DT or UW would be a 22 or 24 pound recoil spring. Enjoy your new gun whatever you choose. The 10 is king!
Quote from: ShadeTreeVTX on February 15 2014 07:48:28 PM MST
HHMMMMM - I wonder if the Gen3 slide will fit the Gen4 bottom ??? or use the adapter in the Gen4 and use the Gen3 springs - something to think about.
Doug
Unfortunately the Gen 3 slide won't work with a Gen 4 receiver. Like Gman says, you would be best off getting the attachment for the Gen 3 springs.