Probably another dumb question, but I was looking at loading info in manuals and on websites for powder companies.....for some reason (lurking around internet websites) I got interested in using Longshot......
After reviewing the former it seems Blue Dot, AA#9 or 800-X would be a better choice from published sources? In fact, 800-X seems to give the best velocity at the lowest pressure (where pressure readings are given). My understanding is that 800-X doesn't meter well but I weigh charges individually anyway. I guess my question is what apparent fact am I missing here? Even conceding that many companies will rate data conservatively, the ones that show Longshot always list it behind several other options for velocity figures.
Quote from: EdMc on July 14 2012 09:08:58 PM MDT
Probably another dumb question, but I was looking at loading info in manuals and on websites for powder companies.....for some reason (lurking around internet websites) I got interested in using Longshot......
After reviewing the former it seems Blue Dot, AA#9 or 800-X would be a better choice from published sources? In fact, 800-X seems to give the best velocity at the lowest pressure (where pressure readings are given). My understanding is that 800-X doesn't meter well but I weigh charges individually anyway. I guess my question is what apparent fact am I missing here? Even conceding that many companies will rate data conservatively, the ones that show Longshot always list it behind several other options for velocity figures.
Of the four powders you mention, I prefer A9 and Blue Dot.
A9 is very forgiving and meters superbly. It will give you the best velocities with "by the book" data. It can also be very accurate with extremely tight standard deviations on velocity. The only demerit for A9 is that it consumes quite a bit more powder, so you'll go through a can much quicker than with the other powders mentioned. 13.0 grains of A9 under a 200 gr XTP gets 1200 fps in my G20. That is 2 tenths
below Hornady's book max. You simply aren't going to get there with Longshot or 800-X without going well above book. A9 also gives great case fill, so you need to work at it to stuff too much powder in a case. This is my favorite 10mm powder for high performance loads. I also load a lot of it for medium warm range loads.
Blue Dot meters well enough, load data is abundant, it gives good velocities, and it is dead nuts accurate across a variety of load combinations. I have loaded more Blue Dot than any other. It is also fairly inexpensive. This is my go to 10mm powder when I don't have to be at maximum velocities. I don't necessarily love the fireball and loud report, but it can be fun sometimes. Safety officers at IDPA matches hate Blue Dot for its loud report. Oh well. :D
I have used a few pounds of 800-X and have found it to be scarily inconsistent. Great with one load, excessive pressure signs with another. Some of the older load data found appears to be a misprint (like what is in Loadbooks). Getting to top velocities means going well above published book loads. Also, it does not meter, so every charge must be hand weighed. I have done exactly that for a couple pounds of it. After I am done with my last can, I wont' buy any more. If you refer to the most current book data, manufacturers hold this powder back substantially. I believe it is because of the inconsistent nature of this powder.
Longshot is a nice powder. It meters pretty nicely. But, like 800-X, must be pushed beyond book maxes by a large margin to get to top velocities. Hodgdon max loads only yield about 1185 fps for a 180 XTP in my G20. The downside is that I have found it to be somewhat finicky about powder charge, or groups wander. It tends to cost a few more bucks than other powders.
For a new guy starting out with 10mm, you can't go wrong with Blue Dot for a variety of bullet types. It gets dirty when down loaded, but it is very clean when pressures increase. It is a solid do everything powder. Accurate no. 9 is highly recommended for its forgiving nature when pursuing top end loads, or for precise metering for medium-hot volume loading.
EdMc, I have used Blue Dot since my first 10mm loading in March 1990, actually developed loads from scratch before there was published data. Some have shyed away from Blue Dot because of the cold weather warnings) I still use it regularly across the calibers/bullet weights/cartridge spectrum Then Speer actually published some data (I have it posted in the reloading section) that mimiced what I was doing based on a suplement they sent as a written request, this was before internet was as popular and wide spread. Alliant has made Power Pistol which has some good aplications for 10mm also.
Yes IMR800X is also a great powder other than the large disk flakes (I hand weigh every load anyway, so it is not an issue with me) and you will find loads the match LongShot grain for grain in most cases. AA#9 & #7 are also great for various loadings with certain bullet weights.
To get to the upper limits people are pushing beyond the published data in most cases...but some of the older data has been reduced over the years as well.
Best regards!
I load lots of Blue Dot. It is everywhere and is a near top performer. It is by far the powder I load the most in 10mm. It burns a touch dirty, which bugs some, but not me.
Second is Unique, for lighter loads for new shooters on their first non-22.
I have burned about 2-3 lbs of AA#9. Great for top performance. I keep at least 100 rounds loaded under my 205 grain hardcast for mountain carry. I consider this one of the best powders, with the only drawback being large charges. A lob doesn't go near as far.
I have longshot but have not tried it yet, and have no interest in a powder like 800X that wont meter.
When wringing out A9 for all it's worth in 10mm with heavy bullets (180-200gr XTP), is it beneficial to go with a magnum LP primer?
None of the data indicates magnum and I have never had any issues with powder performance.
Now that I finally have a Chrony I will test velocity and look at the deviation and extreme spread. But I expect them to be small. My experience is magnum primers are not needed.
Gentlemen, if I had to pay to be a member of this website your replies would be worth the price of admission. I'll look tomorrow and see if I can find some Blue Dot or A#9 locally. I do have the current versions of Speer and Hornady's reloading manuals and a Lyman pistol guide. Of late I've mostly loaded Unique for 45 Colt and 44 Special (Blackhawk and Smith M-24) and Power Pistol in 44 Spec for a CA Bulldog. (speaking of loud). :o
Much appreciated,
Ed
Quote from: sqlbullet on July 14 2012 10:03:41 PM MDT
I load lots of Blue Dot. It is everywhere and is a near top performer. It is by far the powder I load the most in 10mm. It burns a touch dirty, which bugs some, but not me.
I have burned about 2-3 lbs of AA#9. Great for top performance. I keep at least 100 rounds loaded under my 205 grain hardcast for mountain carry. I consider this one of the best powders, with the only drawback being large charges. A lob doesn't go near as far.
I have Longshot but have not tried it yet, and have no interest in a powder like 800X that wont meter.
SAME HERE!!!
I have been loading Blue Dot in my heavy 10MM loadings for almost twenty years! My light lead loadings also came from Unique and HS6.
For about five years I left the 10MM in the safe... (I have two Deltas) Earlier this spring, I bought a G20 and a 6" KKM barrel. The 10mm fever is back WITH A VENGEANCE!!!!
I picked up my first ever can of Longshot about a month ago along with 4 boxes of 200 XTPs and two hundred 175 Winchester Silvertips. (I have been using them for carry since that first Delta back in the late 80's.) I loaded up a half dozen different loadings and hit the range with the chronograph. I was pleased with the velocities and accuracy of these first loadings. I may reach 1400 with the Silvertip, IF I wanted. A full grain from max yields mid 1300fps and high 1200fps with 200 XTP's! Accuracy is very good, so far...
For me this G20 will be a hunting gun and I would like a 200G bullet at as close to 1300 as good accuracy allows... Looks like Longshot will get me there with room to spare...
Good luck,
CW
Quote from: sqlbullet on July 15 2012 07:07:31 AM MDT
None of the data indicates magnum and I have never had any issues with powder performance.
Now that I finally have a Chrony I will test velocity and look at the deviation and extreme spread. But I expect them to be small. My experience is magnum primers are not needed.
I'ld love to see the results!
Quote from: EdMc on July 15 2012 01:29:00 PM MDT
Gentlemen, if I had to pay to be a member of this website your replies would be worth the price of admission. I'll look tomorrow and see if I can find some Blue Dot or A#9 locally. I do have the current versions of Speer and Hornady's reloading manuals and a Lyman pistol guide. Of late I've mostly loaded Unique for 45 Colt and 44 Special (Blackhawk and Smith M-24) and Power Pistol in 44 Spec for a CA Bulldog. (speaking of loud). :o
Much appreciated,
Ed
Ed, I Speer #13 usually has hotter max loads than Hornady, Lyman or Lee. I have not had any issues reaching max in the speer data, but your mileage may vary. Good luck!
Quote from: REDLINE on July 15 2012 05:53:59 PM MDT
Quote from: sqlbullet on July 15 2012 07:07:31 AM MDT
None of the data indicates magnum and I have never had any issues with powder performance.
Now that I finally have a Chrony I will test velocity and look at the deviation and extreme spread. But I expect them to be small. My experience is magnum primers are not needed.
I'ld love to see the results!
I will definitely post them once I get the chance.
Quote from: sqlbullet on July 15 2012 07:23:28 PM MDT
Ed, I Speer #13 usually has hotter max loads than Hornady, Lyman or Lee. I have not had any issues reaching max in the speer data, but your mileage may vary. Good luck!
I'll have to pay attention to how the different "books" can vary. So far I have Reading manuals from: Hornady, Speer, Nosler, and Barnes. Plus of course load data from the powder manufacturers off their respective websites.
Keep in mind it can also be editions of the same book. Powders do change over time. A given company will source a new mfg and the burn rates aren't quite the same. Even different lots have this problem.
There was a time when AA#9 and H110 were the exact same powder. In the last 60's/early 70's they were both military pulldowns from 30 carbine ammo being re-canistered and sold by different companies. At that time you could interchange the data, and load manuals had the same data.
Fast forward to today and clearly they aren't the same. And when you get a jug of surplus WC820 you have to test it carefully to find out if it is old powder (modern AA#9 data) or newer powder (modern H110 data). But, if you can avoid the hazmat fee it can be a great way to get 8lbs of powder for $100 or less sometimes.
Today Win 296 and H-110 are said to be the same...AA#9 seems to a different powder (grains like fine sand) but someone posted that the newer jug was more like flattened ball? ???
I started reloading the big 10 when it first became available back in the mid 80's. My choice of powder then and still is Alliant's (Hercules) Blue Dot for all my 10mm loadings. I did experiment with AA #5 and 7 but found them to be erratic in observed pressure and velocity. Blue Dot works for me in both hard cast lead and jacket bullets. So as far as I'm concerned, why mess with something that works.
Just as a follow up......bought some Blue Dot today at Bass Pro. They're usually sold out........also had a local gun store order a pound of AA#9. That should keep me busy for awhile. Thanks again.
Few minutes anyway. I picked up a big jug of Blue Dot a while back. Don't remember if it is 4lb or 5lb. I have used about half of it. Plus I went through about 2-3 one lb cans before I started the jug.
"Few minutes anyway"
Since they're usually out of stock I got two.(all they had) ;D
You will like the BD...single complaint is its a flake powder and dosen't meter like H110/296. But it more than makes up for that in its attainable velocities!
Good luck,
CW
Quote from: sqlbullet on July 16 2012 12:10:23 PM MDT
Few minutes anyway. I picked up a big jug of Blue Dot a while back. Don't remember if it is 4lb or 5lb. I have used about half of it. Plus I went through about 2-3 one lb cans before I started the jug.
5lb canister and now Jugs...I have gone thru too many 1lb canisters then moved to the 5 pounders, but I wouldn't know about that, just started the new plastic jug! ;D
(https://s20.postimg.org/ampkb0lh9/IMG_0325.jpg)
Quote from: The_Shadow on July 16 2012 09:02:52 AM MDT
Today Win 296 and H-110 are said to be the same...AA#9 seems to a different powder (grains like fine sand) but someone posted that the newer jug was more like flattened ball? ???
A few years ago when A9 was made in Belgium, it was a dark, dull micro-spherical powder. It is now made in USA and is almost as small and somewhat flattened. It is still the tiniest powder kernal I have seen. It is darker in color with a shine under the right light angle. The good news about the recent switch is my early testing appears to indicate that it is less temperature sensative, and it is a little more dense.
Quote from: REDLINE on July 15 2012 01:35:16 AM MDT
When wringing out A9 for all it's worth in 10mm with heavy bullets (180-200gr XTP), is it beneficial to go with a magnum LP primer?
A magnum primer is not needed. The higher bullet pull of the heavier bullets are just what A9 needs to get a good burn. I have used CCI 300s, WLPs (in-between mag and standard), and CCI 350s with A9. I have not found a huge difference with the primers for heavy bullets. However, with lighter bullets, like 155s, where you need to stuff a whole crud ton of A9 in the case; mag primers noticeably speed up the burn rate and increase pressure. Standard primers are better in that situation, in my opinion.
All in all, I would say that one does not need to use mag primers with the heavies. My pet woods load with a WFNGC uses a CCI 350. I did my load workups loosely based upon Speer 200 gr TMJ data. The load works great, and I haven't tried it with a standard primer. For a 200 gr XTP, a WLP primer gives extremely tight high-low spreads on velocities. In the teens or twenties for a 10 shot string. I use CCI 300s for 180 XTPs.
Realistically, I don't see any reason why mag primers are necessary for 10mm for any load.
Quote from: The_Shadow on July 16 2012 06:46:22 PM MDT
Quote from: sqlbullet on July 16 2012 12:10:23 PM MDT
Few minutes anyway. I picked up a big jug of Blue Dot a while back. Don't remember if it is 4lb or 5lb. I have used about half of it. Plus I went through about 2-3 one lb cans before I started the jug.
5lb canister and now Jugs...I have gone thru too many 1lb canisters then moved to the 5 pounders, but I wouldn't know about that, just started the new plastic jug! ;D
(https://s20.postimg.org/ampkb0lh9/IMG_0325.jpg)
A bit of "old school" there Shadow! Cool photo.
Have you noticed any difference between the Hercules Blue Dot and Alliant Blue Dot?
Quote from: sqlbullet on July 16 2012 06:29:40 AM MDT
Keep in mind it can also be editions of the same book. Powders do change over time. A given company will source a new mfg and the burn rates aren't quite the same. Even different lots have this problem.
There was a time when AA#9 and H110 were the exact same powder. In the last 60's/early 70's they were both military pulldowns from 30 carbine ammo being re-canistered and sold by different companies. At that time you could interchange the data, and load manuals had the same data.
Fast forward to today and clearly they aren't the same. And when you get a jug of surplus WC820 you have to test it carefully to find out if it is old powder (modern AA#9 data) or newer powder (modern H110 data). But, if you can avoid the hazmat fee it can be a great way to get 8lbs of powder for $100 or less sometimes.
Some of that I had heard, and some was new info to me. Thanks!
BTW, to anyone; I've heard tell that AA#9 and Ramshot's Enforcer are practically identical in 10mm. Can't remember where I heard it from. Anyone know if that's true, at least for the present time with new powders of each?
Quote from: Taterhead on July 16 2012 10:46:31 PM MDT
A magnum primer is not needed. The higher bullet pull of the heavier bullets are just what A9 needs to get a good burn. I have used CCI 300s, WLPs (in-between mag and standard), and CCI 350s with A9. I have not found a huge difference with the primers for heavy bullets. However, with lighter bullets, like 155s, where you need to stuff a whole crud ton of A9 in the case; mag primers noticeably speed up the burn rate and increase pressure. Standard primers are better in that situation, in my opinion.
All in all, I would say that one does not need to use mag primers with the heavies. My pet woods load with a WFNGC uses a CCI 350. I did my load workups loosely based upon Speer 200 gr TMJ data. The load works great, and I haven't tried it with a standard primer. For a 200 gr XTP, a WLP primer gives extremely tight high-low spreads on velocities. In the teens or twenties for a 10 shot string. I use CCI 300s for 180 XTPs.
Realistically, I don't see any reason why mag primers are necessary for 10mm for any load.
Good to know. Thanks!
Quote from: REDLINE on July 18 2012 12:48:22 AM MDT
BTW, to anyone; I've heard tell that AA#9 and Ramshot's Enforcer are practically identical in 10mm. Can't remember where I heard it from. Anyone know if that's true, at least for the present time with new powders of each?
I had not remembered that, so I looked up the Enforcer data. Ramshot doesn't publish 10mm data for that powder. The data for Enforcer in 44 Magnum is very, very close the Accurate's data for #9 in 44 mag. The differences for 200, 240 and 300 grain JPH's were always just a few tenths of a grain.
If you have a good price on some, I would give them a call and ask. Usually they will comment. However, looking at online pricing at Powder Valley, it looks like #9 would be a little cheaper. So unless you have a deal on Enforcer, I don't see a reason to bother.
This is a very dangerious road to travel...
Be safe and assume nothing. THE ONLY IDENTICLE POWDERS CARRY THE SAME NAME AND LOT NUMBERS!!
Even opening a new can of same powder one should drop top loadings at least 10%!!!
Its best to go with There are no "IDENTICLE" powders.
CW
I like Blue Dot but it will NOT meter thru my RCBS powder dispenser. AA9 and AA7 meters very easily.
Sean`
Quote from: cwlongshot on July 18 2012 08:41:56 AM MDT
This is a very dangerious road to travel...
Be safe and assume nothing. THE ONLY IDENTICLE POWDERS CARRY THE SAME NAME AND LOT NUMBERS!!
Even opening a new can of same powder one should drop top loadings at least 10%!!!
Its best to go with There are no "IDENTICLE" powders.
CW
Good point. This was implied in my post with my recommendation to contact the mfg for data, but not spelled out.
Burn rates between lots, as mentioned, can vary. Over time they can vary a bunch. H110 is an example. In the 1970's it was the same as AA#9. Today, not at all.
I haven't seen enough difference that I can tell without a pressure barrel...still testing more stuff. Blue Dot begs to be loaded to a fuller case with slight compressed loads for best performance and clean burns.
Working on the upper edge may show a little more differences pressure wise.
The 200 grain cast bullets I loaded last night I dropped back to 9.8 grains of BD because the bullet is 0.0335" longer than the 200XTP's, so after I test them I know even more with that load.
Quote from: cwlongshot on July 18 2012 08:41:56 AM MDT
This is a very dangerious road to travel...
Be safe and assume nothing. THE ONLY IDENTICLE POWDERS CARRY THE SAME NAME AND LOT NUMBERS!!
Even opening a new can of same powder one should drop top loadings at least 10%!!!
Its best to go with There are no "IDENTICLE" powders.
CW
Agreed.
Had a chance today to chrono a very small sample of loads with Blue Dot today and compare to some previously loaded Longshot. All were fired from a stock G20SF - Starline brass - 180 gr XTP - WLP primers - COAL 1.260" - Pro Chrony - Temp mid 90s - Humidity 2 feet ;D - Elevation ~ 500 ft.
9.6 gr BD 10.2 gr BD 10.7gr BD 9.0 gr LS
Avg fsp 1015 1062 1092 1198
The 10.7 gr BD being the max load in Hornady's current reloading manual with the only change being Starline instead of Hornady brass. The LS load being over Hornady's max.
Max case bulge on the BD loads was ~.433 and ~.434 on the LS load.
Trying to duplicate DM1906's method of measuring I put the flat part of my calipers on a table top with the case sitting upright to measure: the BD loads measured ~.425 and the LS loads ~.430 Quite a difference on what should be the web area of the casing and the small bit that is unsupported by the Glock barrel. I don't have the experience to know if this is of any meaning or not.
Quote from: EdMc on July 25 2012 09:21:20 PM MDT
Had a chance today to chrono a very small sample of loads with Blue Dot today and compare to some previously loaded Longshot. All were fired from a stock G20SF - Starline brass - 180 gr XTP - WLP primers - COAL 1.260" - Pro Chrony - Temp mid 90s - Humidity 2 feet ;D - Elevation ~ 500 ft.
9.6 gr BD 10.2 gr BD 10.7gr BD 9.0 gr LS
Avg fsp 1015 1062 1092 1198
The 10.7 gr BD being the max load in Hornady's current reloading manual with the only change being Starline instead of Hornady brass. The LS load being over Hornady's max.
Max case bulge on the BD loads was ~.433 and ~.434 on the LS load.
Trying to duplicate DM1906's method of measuring I put the flat part of my calipers on a table top with the case sitting upright to measure: the BD loads measured ~.425 and the LS loads ~.430 Quite a difference on what should be the web area of the casing and the small bit that is unsupported by the Glock barrel. I don't have the experience to know if this is of any meaning or not.
Wow. Very interesting chrony readings. 10.7 grains of BD under a 180 XTP gives about 1220 in my G20. So my results are more than 100 fps different. I have chronied that load on a few separate occasions and temperatures with similar results.
9.1 grains of LS averaged 1170 fps. 9.5 grains yielded 1190. So your data for LS tracks a bit closer to my personal testing.
BD puts out a huge muzzle blast and fireball that is known to mess with chrony readings. I wonder if there might be a bit of error in the BD numbers? It is possible that if you were to back up from the chrony a few feet if your data would come in a bit different. Those charges should have you running past 1200 fps. But then again, things run differently in different pistols. But I would guess there is some chrony error.
Wow! :o 128 fps difference. Maybe it was the 2' of humidity? :D
Quote from: EdMc on July 25 2012 09:21:20 PM MDT
Had a chance today to chrono a very small sample of loads with Blue Dot today and compare to some previously loaded Longshot. All were fired from a stock G20SF - Starline brass - 180 gr XTP - WLP primers - COAL 1.260" - Pro Chrony - Temp mid 90s - Humidity 2 feet ;D - Elevation ~ 500 ft.
9.6 gr BD 10.2 gr BD 10.7gr BD 9.0 gr LS
Avg fsp 1015 1062 1092 1198
The 10.7 gr BD being the max load in Hornady's current reloading manual with the only change being Starline instead of Hornady brass. The LS load being over Hornady's max.
Max case bulge on the BD loads was ~.433 and ~.434 on the LS load.
Trying to duplicate DM1906's method of measuring I put the flat part of my calipers on a table top with the case sitting upright to measure: the BD loads measured ~.425 and the LS loads ~.430 Quite a difference on what should be the web area of the casing and the small bit that is unsupported by the Glock barrel. I don't have the experience to know if this is of any meaning or not.
I'm not exactly sure what you're describing, but it's not exactly what I recommended. I could be wrong. I suggest measuring the case web, ABOVE the rim, not to include the rim. However, your numbers are still very telling. If you are measuring the rim, and are seeing that difference, then LS is creating a very significant pressure increase over BD. This would also explain your very anemic velocities with BD, as stated by Tater. 10.7 gr. BD with a 180 gr. jacketed bullet is more near a starting load, not a max. 11 gr. is my target load with jackets or lead. 10.7 gr. BD should get you near/past 1200 FPS, even with standard primers. If you're in fact at 1092, that's sub-sonic, and can affect chrono readings if you're less than 10-15' away. Super-sonic won't affect actual chrono readings, but can give secondary errors if too close (the muzzle blast is a second event). Your chrono should read 2 velocities in this case, one valid, and one error or very slow. If your chrono is a "Chrony" brand, it should catch more than 7,000 RPM. The lessers are still good for 4,000 or better. These cycles are way beyond anything we'll discuss here, or are capable of repeating with a semi-auto. Anyhoo, there's something not right with your rounds, or chrono data.
Quote from: REDLINE on July 25 2012 11:50:53 PM MDT
Wow! :o 128 fps difference. Maybe it was the 2' of humidity? :D
Yeah, humidity. It's been so bad here lately, I can step outside and drink the air. Still, not 128 FPS worth.
Hey, I'm always wrong......just ask my wife. :) The chrono is a Competition Electronics Pro Chrono. Didn't measure but I was 10 or 12 ft from the chrono. 10.7 of BD is Hornady's 'max' ...1250 fps out of a Delta 5" barrel. Speer shows 11 gr as a max. overall length at 1.25 w/ CCI primer and GD 180gr. ....1295 out of a Smith 1006. Anyway, sound, felt recoil.. it was obvious the LS load was hotter. I consider the web area to be just above the extractor groove, anywhere in this area the LS load measures .003 or more larger. Farther up the case the sizes are around .001 difference, but I'd think this area is more dependent on chamber sizing. Perhaps not....? ;D I've never fired any of the hotter 'boutique' ammo to have a case for reference.
As for the chrono, I don't know?. The LS was consistent with some previously measured LS loads. I also shot a few Win White Box 115gr. 9mm over the chrono the same day. The average was 1164 fps out of a CZ-75B. I have no idea if thats a normal velocity for them or not. It's not often I have access to an area I can shoot over the chrono.....I'll try again when I can.
Humidity.... :o.I live in the Macon, GA area, the Deep South. The high for today and (I guess yesterday is 100+). Hit 106-108 a few weeks back.....add in the high humidity and....well, you better like to sweat. ;D
I can tell you about humidity in LoUiSiAna...I linked my latest outing numbers with BD.
http://10mm-firearms.com/range-reports/wow-shooting-in-louisiana's-heat-and-humdity/ (http://10mm-firearms.com/range-reports/wow-shooting-in-louisiana's-heat-and-humdity/)
Yeah, I ran two mags through the CZ and thought.....this is stupid and went inside where there was A/C. ;)
Quote from: EdMc on July 26 2012 07:44:23 AM MDT
Hey, I'm always wrong......just ask my wife. :) The chrono is a Competition Electronics Pro Chrono. Didn't measure but I was 10 or 12 ft from the chrono. 10.7 of BD is Hornady's 'max' ...1250 fps out of a Delta 5" barrel. Speer shows 11 gr as a max. overall length at 1.25 w/ CCI primer and GD 180gr. ....1295 out of a Smith 1006. Anyway, sound, felt recoil.. it was obvious the LS load was hotter. I consider the web area to be just above the extractor groove, anywhere in this area the LS load measures .003 or more larger. Farther up the case the sizes are around .001 difference, but I'd think this area is more dependent on chamber sizing. Perhaps not....? ;D I've never fired any of the hotter 'boutique' ammo to have a case for reference.
As for the chrono, I don't know?. The LS was consistent with some previously measured LS loads. I also shot a few Win White Box 115gr. 9mm over the chrono the same day. The average was 1164 fps out of a CZ-75B. I have no idea if thats a normal velocity for them or not. It's not often I have access to an area I can shoot over the chrono.....I'll try again when I can.
Humidity.... :o.I live in the Macon, GA area, the Deep South. The high for today and (I guess yesterday is 100+). Hit 106-108 a few weeks back.....add in the high humidity and....well, you better like to sweat. ;D
We have the opposite problem. About 6% humidity and 105+ degrees on some days. I can't keep enough water on my yard. Sinuses and everything dry, dry.
Gotta love the mountain west.
Well, I tried a few more loads over the chrono. Same new Starline brass, 180 XTP, WLP, 1.260 and 10.7 gr BD individually weighed etc. The only change was a little more crimp...0.419. Avg. velocity was 1128 fps this time, only slightly better than the previous 1092. Beats me, maybe I'll try some Power Pistol I have and see how close it comes to book values.
Weird; that sure sounds like you have a "slow" lot of Blue Dot.
BTW, to use the case web measurement method of comparing loads, you need to be using the same brand of brass, with the same number of firings through them. You should also measure them before they are fired, and calculate the difference.
I bought 2lbs but of course they're the same lot number. Nothing dramatic like a large fireball or very loud report. Average recoil.......
Thanks for the tip on the case measurements. These were about the same as some Atlanta Arms shot at a range.....less than the 9.0 load of LS. I'll continue on.....
Btw, LW shipped the long slide order today, less the BO barrel. Did you find a velocity increase when using the compensator? I read the article on GunBlast.........always thought the opposite, that the comp/brake would decrease velocity.
I haven't measured to find out if there's a velocity difference with or without the brake. It certainly won't decrease velocity (it doesn't touch the bullet), don't know if it has a significant effect or not. I read that gunblast article too, there were enough errors that I took it with a grain of salt.
If you preserve overall length by removing part of the barrel and replacing it with compensator/brake you may loose a few fps. But, you have effectively shortened the pressure bearing part of the ride.
If you attach it to the end increasing the overall length of the gun, I doubt it would have any impact at all. If it did it should be a tiny increase.
It can have a positive impact on accuracy. It helps normalize the forces that occur as the projectile leaves the barrel, resulting in more stability. In rifles this can be significant, taking a 1 MOA gun to .75 or better. In handguns I expect the difference would be hard to quantify.
Quote from: Yondering link=topic=234.msg3968#msg3968 date=1344015496
You should also measure them before they are fired, and calculate the difference.
/quote]
Thinking about this, someone in another thread asked about measuring the casing after sizing......with the Hornady dies mine came out one or more thousandths more than anyone else posted. ) 0.419 as I remember.....the die measures 0.416 with a pin gage. I know the brass 'springs' back so I wonder about the internal ID of other dies. Probably meaningless mental masturbation. :o
The spot you need to be measuring is not touched by the resizing die (unless you're talking about a push through die). Measure the area immediately in front of the extractor groove, not farther up the case where it gets resized.
Thanks, I get that.........the other was just mental rambling out loud, sorta. Like I said, meaningless.
Okay, so I tried some Power Pistol. Same stock G20SF, new Starline, WLP, 180 XTP, 1.260 coal, 0.419 crimp.
8.5 gr Power Pistol
1136
1142
1152 AVG 1150
1158
1164
Right on 'book' velocities for the bullet and amount of powder. Makes me think something isn't right with lot of Blue Dot I bought. I know you can have a variance with different lot numbers on any powder but the BD is ~ 100 fps slower than other reports. Or, is that a normal variance? ???
Doesn't seem normal to me.
Doesn't seem normal to me either. You might give Alliant a call, see if they know of any issues with that lot of powder.
I tried calling and got an answering/leave a message system. :o I find that hard to believe for a large company, unless this is annual vacation week. Anyway, I sent an email to their 'Ask the Experts' contact on the Alliant website.
You might want to try different primers, Using CCI350's or other magnum primers with Blue Dot may bring the velocities up and tighten up ES and SD. I have seen some variances using 300's or non magnum primers with Blue Dot.
Quote from: The_Shadow on August 09 2012 02:56:06 PM MDT
You might want to try different primers
Well, other than using Starline cases instead of Hornady it's all the same as the loads in the Hornady manual. I'm over 100 fps slower with BD but dead on their velocity with PP. If anything, with the slightly shorter Glock barrel, my chrono might read a little high going by that. I did get a reply from Alliant wanting a little more information so I'll wait and see what they have to say. Not that it's a big deal, I'd just like to know why the large difference when using BD and not with another powder. Thanks.
To anyone still following this never ending saga :D this is the reply from Alliant:
"I cannot explain the lower velocity with Blue Dot. If could be that the faster burning Power Pistol is more efficient in your barrel length."
My question was that a max 'book' load of Power Pistol was at book velocities while a max load of Blue Dot fell ~ 100 fps short and had anyone else questioned that particular lot of Blue Dot. I guess I'll try the same load in my new Smith 1006 and see if I find a major improvement in velocity. Then I'll know for sure if it's the pistol or the powder. :-\
Quote from: EdMc on August 03 2012 10:31:28 AM MDT
Well, I tried a few more loads over the chrono. Same new Starline brass, 180 XTP, WLP, 1.260 and 10.7 gr BD individually weighed etc. The only change was a little more crimp...0.419. Avg. velocity was 1128 fps this time, only slightly better than the previous 1092. Beats me, maybe I'll try some Power Pistol I have and see how close it comes to book values.
Have you slugged the bore in that barrel? I wonder if a slightly loose/oversized bore is contributing to low velocity, where the faster Power Pistol might not be as sensitive to it.
Looked back at my load data; I haven't used the 180 XTP's, but a very similar load of 180 JHP (Montana Gold) at 1.260" over 11.0gr BD and a WLP was doing 1300 fps from a 4.6" Storm Lake barrel.
[/quote]
Have you slugged the bore in that barrel? I wonder if a slightly loose/oversized bore is contributing to low velocity, where the faster Power Pistol might not be as sensitive to it.
Looked back at my load data; I haven't used the 180 XTP's, but a very similar load of 180 JHP (Montana Gold) at 1.260" over 11.0gr BD and a WLP was doing 1300 fps from a 4.6" Storm Lake barrel.
[/quote]
No, I haven't, although it might be a good idea. Taterhead, in a previous post, noted my results with 9.0 gr of Longshot (avg-1198fps) were somewhat close to his. Longshot being much closer to Blue Dot than Power Pistol in burn rates makes me still look at the powder being the reason.
I think I still have about five rds of the Blue Dot load......if I can catch my neighbors at work tomorrow, I'll try them in the Smith. That should tell me something......maybe?
Normally to use the chrono I have to drive up to a friends place, when he's home, as the indoor range I use obviously doesn't allow using the chrono.
I think you're right that you got a slow lot of powder. Still worth slugging the bore though, and this is useful info if you plan to shoot any cast bullets through it too.
I shot the remaining five rounds out of the Smith today. Average was 1181, about the difference you'd expect from the slightly longer (5 inch) barrel. No excuse, but I was in a hurry and hit my chrono >:( fault is all my own. May it R.I.P. :'( Obviously was able to recover the data.
What and where could I find soft lead to use to slug the bore? I've never done it before.......about time I tried. ;D
I use muzzleloader round balls for slugging. Generally I just use 50 cal balls, since that's what I have, but of course 45 cal balls would work too. I mount the barrel in a vice, padded with leather, and the muzzle down, resting on another leather pad. I like to put some case sizing wax on the ball, but not completely necessary; oiling the barrel is another option. I set the ball on the chamber mouth and use an aluminum rod and a hammer to pound it in. The soft lead deforms easily and won't hurt the barrel.
I do this twice on every barrel; the first ball gets pushed all the way through, the second gets pushed just into the throat right at the front of the chamber, then back out again, so you can measure the throat diameter and length.
Take note of any tight or loose spots as you push the ball through the bore.
Bummer about the chrony. If/when you replace it, I've found the "Pro Chrono" to be much better than the "Shooting Chrony" models, and about the same price.
Thanks. Good enough, there's a Bass Pro about a mile from me, I'll go an see what they have in black powder balls.
Sadly, it was a Pro Chrono. The only parts really hurt were the two plastic holders/covers over the infrared, or whatever lights. Also a small part off the rear circuit board. I could solder it back but I'm not sure if it's polarity sensitive. No sure what it is, small metal can like a transistor but only has two leads so that's not what it is. Has some blacking marking on one side so it may be a mark for polarity. Could be a small electrolytic capacitor, but who knows?
Added: Use 0.440 .45 cal balls to slug both barrels. The Glock 0.4010
The Smith 0.4001
Didn't notice any tight spots in either barrel other than the initial start. I did go from end down to the chamber.
Slug the barrel from the chamber end, generally you'll get a better slug that way. Important to slug just the throat too.
So your Glock bore is .001" larger than your jacketed bullets? Shooting cast through that barrel, .402" should be the right diameter, but it depends on the throat dimensions too.
FWIW, my new gen 4 G19 has a large bore too; .357" instead of .355". It shoots a little better with .357 jacketed bullets.
Yeah, the Glock measured .401. By 'throat' do you mean the area just ahead of the end of the chamber? The 'leade' or whatever it's called in a barrel before the rifling starts?
Perhaps I should slug the bores in my BH 45 Colt and M-24 Smith as I shoot cast in those.
Yes, that's correct. I think "leade" is a European term for the same thing.
Yeah...You should slug anything you are going to shoot lead in. Bullet fit is the most common answer to avoiding leading. Knowing what you have goes a long way towards avoiding issues.
One note on revolvers, you need to know the cylinder mouth diameters for each chamber. And pray they are larger than the bore of the barrel.
I know Ruger Blackhawks in 45 are known for having undersize cylinder throats. Measured mine once with a pin gage.....they need to be reamed as I remember. Of course anyone who shoots his own chrono has other 'issues' in accuracy that need to be resolved first. ::)
Some Chrony Protection goes a long way to protect the investment! Last time out I actually forgot my steel plate that I lay on my chrony to provide protection. Well it was hot, as the secession worn on and the sweat soaked me, my clothes and running onto my eyes I shot the skewer sticks, knowing I didn't have the steel plate I called it a day before I shot the Chrony!
Quote from: EdMc on August 15 2012 08:59:53 AM MDT
I know Ruger Blackhawks in 45 are known for having undersize cylinder throats. Measured mine once with a pin gage.....they need to be reamed as I remember. Of course anyone who shoots his own chrono has other 'issues' in accuracy that need to be resolved first. ::)
Yeah, the 45 Colt Blackhawks are a classic example. I went ahead and bought a reamer for mine, so now it's a pretty easy job. I cut the head off a fired case and slip the body over the reamer to use as an alignment guide. Seems to work really well.
In my experience, throat diameter in a semi-auto is more important than actual bore diameter. I size for a slip fit in the throat, and with a decent throat, that will give a tight fit in the bore, and should work with minimal or no leading. The throat will usually be a taper, not just a straight section, and throat length is an important dimension to measure too, as it determines how far out you can seat a properly sized cast bullet.
Thanks for the tip on BH reaming. Want to rent the reamer? ::) Just kidding, sorta.....I remember them being a little pricey for a one time use.
Glad you mentioned the taper on the throat slugging. I tried it earlier today and it measured .402~.403, maybe slightly higher.......hard to tell exactly where the poly rifling began as it isn't as distinct as say the conventional rifling of the Smith barrel.