anyone else feel embarrassed carrying non full power 10 ammo. still 40 power our above and no one knows other than 10mm fans. i dont know why but i just feel like a poser or something for carrying weak 10mm ammo. lts like putting a 4x4 emblem on your rear wheel drive truck or something. dumb to think that way but i do. if people stopped making full power 10 and couldnt reload my own (which i currently do not) i would probably just sell my 10.
There is nothing wrong with the Hornady 155 grain XTP at 1280 fps for self defense. In my opinion it is a good balance of velocity and controllability in a 10mm platform.
i have 3 or 4 boxes of those. they where my primary until i discovered pbr and underwood. heck the hornady 180 grain xtp are still about 200 fps faster compared to hornaday 40xtp 180gr. but at the same time the 40 cal 155's are only 100fps slower.
Nothing less than 600 ft lbs imho. Georgia Arms makes a fine 155 gr at 1375 Speer Unicore. That will be 650 ft lbs of smack down that is controllable. Problem is waiting on them. 50 rnds at 31.50.
As far as embarrassing with non full power. You carry what your comfortable with in the conditions your in. If your primarily in a urban or area surrounded by mass of people I would surely go light grain. What I do is compile various points on fast and light as a defense round just in case. Ones decision on a carry round like a 10mm will come into question. But the stigma can be refuted when the carrier took prudent steps in bullet selection and considered environment. if a carrier is concerned about penetration in a populated area with a 10mm, carry what the local PD carry's.
I used too, but after attending some full poweraholics anonymous meetings I can accept myself for who I am ;D
But seriously, one of the reasons I now own a Glock 20 is that my Super Blackhawk was beating my hands up pretty good with even my mid-power handloads. The recoil on the G20 is way more comfortable than my Super Blackhawk, but I still prefer medium or lighter loads in the G20.
Also, mid-power loads are my prefered for defense. I carry Hornady Critical Duty in the G20. Those loads might actually be considered a little lighter than mid-power. They are also perhaps the most accurate loads for my G20.
Quote from: krafcheck on January 23 2014 07:56:50 PM MST
lts like putting a 4x4 emblem on your rear wheel drive truck or something.
Shooting non-full power is like driving a 4x4 in 2 wheel drive....you don't ALWAYS need 4x4 capabilities, but it's nice to have it available at a push of a button.
I keep my G29 at bedside with hydrashoks in it....yea its not 10mm power it's
exactly .40 power...but if I need to use it in the middle of the night (or if my wife does) I want a soft shooter with little muzzle flash.
Next to my G29 I have mags full of Underwood 200 XTP, Underwood 200 FMJ and Silvertips (my carry load)....so I can get full power at anytime.
Versatility is the name of the game.
All the power in the world wont do any good if you cant accurately put it on target, and keep it there. Can you do it with Norma spec loads? If you can then feel free to do so. I've reached the age where my "manliness" has nothing to do with how powerful a load I can fire. A warm 10mm for EDC is fine by me; I load some HOT loads to play with but not for a steady diet. The 10mm's great beauty is its mild to wild load spectrum; that's why I own them and carry them.
i agree with mild to wild.
not so much being manly but its more of why carry mild. i can load wild rounds in this gun but having a weak round for a 10 just wrong. might as well carry my 40. as far as my best accuracy ever is with a g26. that 9 was awesome. i shot fast and accurate the first time i picked one up. but for SD i am more concerned what my first shot does. i just feel dumb or something for have mild loads for sd
another example would be carrying a 44 mag in grizzly country but having 44 specials in the wheel.
You don't need full power for self defense on humans. Pacapcop's 155 grain bullet at 1375 is about perfect. Do you really need a 155 at 1500 for SD purposes?
Don't forget the stress of a gunfight, shooting at moving targets who are shooting back at you, etc.
For woods carry where you might only get one or two shoots off at say, a charging bear, yes I would want full power.
Not carrying "full power" doesn't bother me at all, as a matter of fact, unless I plan on heading into the woods I rarely use full power stuff. I don't carry weak stuff, just something befitting the 10mm while not going overboard.
Everyone is different, but I prefer not loading to the max when using the G20 for self defense purposes. My theory is that if I have to get up in the middle of the night and grab the G20 and it's loaded with a super max nuclear handload that it may very well be way more blast and recoil than is needed for a human being, and possibly being half groggy won't help matters.
I have handloads that are just for SD, and I usually like to keep my 180's around 1150-1200 fps, my 165's around 1300 fps and my 155's around 1400 fps. None are nuclear loads so in the unlikely chance that the issue is ever brought up, should I have to defend myself with them, at least they're not totally full on maximum loads. Plus in general, the faster you shoot them the less they penetrate since most .400" JHP are .40 S&W designs, and I've found most can handle more velocity and still hold up, but depending on the bullet, that might not be as much as you think. There really is a sweet spot where both expansion and penetration are both very good and exceeding that leads to less penetration, a factor I see as very important, even more so than expansion.
To me, that's one of the nice things about the 10mm, the ability to load it just how YOU want it. If you have to have a max load, fine. But I like mixing things up a little.
according to the power chart a lot of the loads yall are listing are in the full power spectrum.
i guess i should clarify.
im not meaning "nuclear level" according to the chart.
Quote from: krafcheck on January 25 2014 08:31:06 AM MST
according to the power chart a lot of the loads yall are listing are in the full power spectrum.
i guess i should clarify.
im not meaning "nuclear level" according to the chart.
That explains a lot. Here on this forum, we do tend to get caught up in maximum 10mm loads, like Underwood and Buffalo Bore.
I guess it all depends on how much we can handle under the stress of a gunfight. I agree a 165 or 170 grain bullet at 1300+ fps is still full power but not nuclear, and I think would be manageable to many of us. Same with Pacapcop's 155 grain load. Most LEO's I know would never be able to handle these loads, so like I indicated previously it comes down to the skill level of the individual shooter. According to the chart, the Hornady 155 at 1280 is borderline, or close to full power. It might make a nice carry load for many people.
Shoot what you can handle!
A thought provoking thread though..
I could carry a 10mm if I wanted but for self defense quick shots with accurate follow up are more important. My edc is a glock 26 with 10+1 standard 147gr HST. Im probably going to switch to an xds 4.0 9mm when my next renewal is. (Currently in sacramento county in the great commie state of california I can only change my guns upon carry license renewal). So it would be xds 4.0 9mm edc, kahr pm9 and a glock 20.
The g29 reduces all the gains of the 10mm and has all of its negatives. Big, heavy, etc vs a glock 23 for example.
Or should I go pm9, g19, g20, or maybe lcp, xds 4.0, g20. Decisions, decisions
Quote from: mag360 on January 25 2014 12:09:09 PM MST
Or should I go pm9, g19, g20, or maybe lcp, xds 4.0, g20. Decisions, decisions
i would go for the xds. in California anyways. i would be scared the liberals would say you were out looking for trouble with anything bigger. just my 2 cents
when i first got my 10 the only place that had any ammo was a hole in the wall fishing/gun store. they were the blazer 200gr. it was 33 dollars. and the 4 others in the store could not believe how expensive they were. i had to have something and at the time that was all i could find until another store got the 10's back in stock. then i started stocking up on the hornady loads. Corbon just to proud of there ammo.
wasnt the original thought on the 10 supposed to be 200gr. at 1000fps?
i have no problem carrying 550ish foot pounds but any lower i would probably just carry my g27 more. just reminds me of Crocodile Dundee from the movie say "that's not a knife. this is a knife."
The original 10 was supposed to be a 200 at 1200.
Also, I believe a 170 at 1350 to 1400. I think this as later backed down to 1300+.
The FBI was the sole source of abusing manufacturer's into producing the crap that's still out there today. Our savior's are folks like Double tap and Underwood and others that believe the 10mm should remain the powerhouse that it was intended to be, and should remain. Thank God for the believers!
Nugents 135 nosler is rated 1553 NOT 1475. 723 FT LBS.
any of you carry fmj for SD? if so are they full power?
what about nuclear HP's? they may not penetrate 12 inches but if you hit a shoulder or something it would seem like they would devastate any ligaments/tendons/muscle making a arm or leg virtually useless for quite a while.
No fmj's. Do carry U/W's 135's. Thinking about switching over to Georgia Arms 155's Speer when they are in. Also UW's 155 XTP's have me interested. But main interest would be the Speer by G/A's.
I recently switched from carrying the 180 grain (Sierra JHP) Buffalo Bore load, back to the 175 grain Hornady Critical Duty load in my Glock 20SF, but I still don't feel "under-gunned" with this mild load. However, I DO keep my 2nd magazine full of the heavy Buffalo Bore load, "just in-case".
Awe, there's no difference. Here's a friend shooting a 9mm and a 10mm. That's only 1mm, folks, how much difference can there be?
A Sig P226:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63Kr3Z9T7Dc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63Kr3Z9T7Dc)
He had never fired a 10mm before:
Hang on, dude!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZYoZSLD2yc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZYoZSLD2yc)
:))
That had me laughing hard ;D ;D What 10mm ammo?
That's the Underwood 180 FMJ. I always enjoy introducing people to the 10mm!
At this moment I am carrying 150 gr Noslers at 1420 fps, accurate in my G20SF.
At some point I will switch to my EAA Limited 10 and the same Nolser 150 gr HP's. I have some 180 gr HST at 1325 that shoot very good in my Limited 10. I just prefer a lighter bullet and higher velocity.
Sean
Quote from: StockIIBoss on January 30 2014 12:25:03 PM MST
Awe, there's no difference. Here's a friend shooting a 9mm and a 10mm. That's only 1mm, folks, how much difference can there be?
A Sig P226:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63Kr3Z9T7Dc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63Kr3Z9T7Dc)
He had never fired a 10mm before:
Hang on, dude!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZYoZSLD2yc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZYoZSLD2yc)
:))
Ed looks like he is limpwristing.
Novice shooter?
Did the mag swap fix your Limited?
It looks like his left hand isn't even staying on. No Glock :P
Quote from: 4949shooter on January 30 2014 01:31:23 PM MST
Quote from: StockIIBoss on January 30 2014 12:25:03 PM MST
Awe, there's no difference. Here's a friend shooting a 9mm and a 10mm. That's only 1mm, folks, how much difference can there be?
A Sig P226:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63Kr3Z9T7Dc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63Kr3Z9T7Dc)
He had never fired a 10mm before:
Hang on, dude!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZYoZSLD2yc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZYoZSLD2yc)
:))
Ed looks like he is limpwristing.
Novice shooter?
No, he's a former Marine, and an excellent shot. I used to look like that when I was shooting Bullseye competition, so I didn't say anything. One hand & very light grip. And tons of time between shots! They even have that competition anymore or has it gone by the way of morse code in ham radio?
Quote from: StockIIBoss on January 30 2014 02:10:49 PM MST
Quote from: 4949shooter on January 30 2014 01:31:23 PM MST
Quote from: StockIIBoss on January 30 2014 12:25:03 PM MST
Awe, there's no difference. Here's a friend shooting a 9mm and a 10mm. That's only 1mm, folks, how much difference can there be?
A Sig P226:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63Kr3Z9T7Dc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63Kr3Z9T7Dc)
He had never fired a 10mm before:
Hang on, dude!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZYoZSLD2yc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZYoZSLD2yc)
:))
Ed looks like he is limpwristing.
Novice shooter?
No, he's a former Marine, and an excellent shot. I used to look like that when I was shooting Bullseye competition, so I didn't say anything. One hand & very light grip. And tons of time between shots! They even have that competition anymore or has it gone by the way of morse code in ham radio?
Oh okay....he isn't accustomed to a two hand hold. Gotcha.
Quote from: 4949shooter on January 30 2014 02:28:07 PM MST
Oh okay....he isn't accustomed to a two hand hold. Gotcha.
I dunno. I just watched him making one big hole at 15 yds and kept my mouth shut. ;D
I see what you are saying though, he is an accomplished bullseye shooter and I don't mean to take anything away from him. The point of your post was the difference in 9 and 10, and I think he would do better firing a 10mm pistol with a two hand hold and wrist lock.
Just my thoughts, and this is up for discussion since that is what we do here.
Well, why buy a 10mm if you are only going to shoot .40 S&W power stuff in it?
Quote from: gandog56 on January 30 2014 06:31:06 PM MST
Well, why buy a 10mm if you are only going to shoot .40 S&W power stuff in it?
Don't think anyone said they ONLY shoot the watered down stuff.
I want a firearm that will shoot a 180 grain JHP at 950fps....then 3 seconds later shoot one around 1300fps.
Quote from: gandog56 on January 30 2014 06:31:06 PM MST
Well, why buy a 10mm if you are only going to shoot .40 S&W power stuff in it?
I hear this alot on this board, and on other 10mm boards.
Simple.
Full power 10mm loads are hard on guns. They are hard on brass. They are hard on wallets. And they are hard on joints. Guns, brass and money can be replaced. Joints can't.
I almost never need full power 10mm. I certainly don't need it to chew up potatoes or clay pigeons with my kids. I don't need to to practice marksmanship. I don't need 200 grains at 1270 fps to enjoy a morning in the desert with my gun buddies.
In fact, I hope I NEVER need it. Because all the scenarios I would need it in are under dire circumstances in which I would prefer not to find myself.
But, I may need it. So, I spend my scarce and limited handgun budget on the most versatile handgun round that is commonly chambered.
That is why you buy a 10mm even if you don't mean to shoot full power 10mm auto.
He is holding pistol in a "Cup in Saucer" manner. I subscribe to the 600 ft lb rule and over. Light bullet and hard hitting.
Quote from: sqlbullet on February 10 2014 01:43:49 PM MST
Quote from: gandog56 on January 30 2014 06:31:06 PM MST
Well, why buy a 10mm if you are only going to shoot .40 S&W power stuff in it?
I hear this alot on this board, and on other 10mm boards.
Simple.
Full power 10mm loads are hard on guns. They are hard on brass. They are hard on wallets. And they are hard on joints. Guns, brass and money can be replaced. Joints can't.
I almost never need full power 10mm. I certainly don't need it to chew up potatoes or clay pigeons with my kids. I don't need to to practice marksmanship. I don't need 200 grains at 1270 fps to enjoy a morning in the desert with my gun buddies.
In fact, I hope I NEVER need it. Because all the scenarios I would need it in are under dire circumstances in which I would prefer not to find myself.
But, I may need it. So, I spend my scarce and limited handgun budget on the most versatile handgun round that is commonly chambered.
That is why you buy a 10mm even if you don't mean to shoot full power 10mm auto.
Im not sure lighter weight bullets are better for guns, since they usually just cram more powder in a lighter bullet. The action of a semi needs a minimum power to cycle correctly. Also I don't see lighter bullets being much if any cheaper in factory ammo. And I reload them, anyways. 155 grain bullets are only 15 bucks less per 1000 than my favorite 185 grain bullets. So that would make every round about 2 cents more per cartridge. But wait, I use less powder for that heavier bullet. One grain per bullet less. Which means I can actually load 53 MORE bullets per pound.
Maybe I missed something. When did bullet weight come into play? I thought we were talking about full power (Max handloads, Underwood, Buffalo Bore) vs the slightly above 40 S&W power level of most factory/practice/bulk ammo you can buy.
Not that it changes any of my statements. Show me any full power 10mm load of any bullet weight, and I will show you a load that is more expensive to buy, load, shoot than one that is 15-20% less velocity/energy. And, it won't be any more reliable either.
Might be less reliable in fact. We see guys here buy a Glock 20, run it fine with some generic load, then have issues with Underwood level loads. Issues that are often resolved with a heavier recoil spring in their Glock.
I am not telling anyone what they ought to do. Each person ought to use their 10mm how they see fit. I am just answering the question of why I buy a 10mm and then proceed to shoot mostly "hot" 40 S&W level loads in it. And why others might too.
I can clarify my statement regarding full power 10mm. My initial intrest was to have magnum power in a semi auto loader. The lighter bullet comment is only mentioned as I see it's use in populated areas as I am in. I hope that clears a misunderstanding on the light bullet mentioning. I like to shoot them all when i can.
I shoot the range and like them all. On a note though I sold off most of my Underwood TMJ's because I think that beats things up more than needed to punch excessive holes in paper.
Quote from: sqlbullet on February 11 2014 08:31:58 AM MST
Maybe I missed something. When did bullet weight come into play? I thought we were talking about full power (Max handloads, Underwood, Buffalo Bore) vs the slightly above 40 S&W power level of most factory/practice/bulk ammo you can buy.
Well, then back to my original question. Why buy a 10mm if you are only going to shoot .40 cal equivalent loads out of it. Just buy a .40 cal and be done with it.
Quote from: gandog56 on February 13 2014 12:31:51 PM MST
Quote from: sqlbullet on February 11 2014 08:31:58 AM MST
Maybe I missed something. When did bullet weight come into play? I thought we were talking about full power (Max handloads, Underwood, Buffalo Bore) vs the slightly above 40 S&W power level of most factory/practice/bulk ammo you can buy.
Well, then back to my original question. Why buy a 10mm if you are only going to shoot .40 cal equivalent loads out of it. Just buy a .40 cal and be done with it.
10mm gives me a testosterone rush.
I don't want to lower myself to FBI standards.
I like to say "220 hard cast."
And my No. 1 reason for not shooting a .40... "eweeee"
There is no reason to be embarrassed to carry loads less than full power 10mm, more than likely they will work as intended even at the 40S&W level.
Well part of the fun of having the 10mm is the fact that from Mild to Wild its all fun and very real!
Rolling my own, allows me to make what I want and to suit my needs! Having conversion barrels allows me the benefit of shooting 10mm, 40S&W, 357Sig and 9x25Dillon. For a while, I was scoring so much 40S&W brass, it was worth utilizing the brass for practice and proficiency loads, saving wear and tear on my 10mm brass.
When I carry my G-29 it is stuffed with 200gr XTP or Speer 200 Gold Dots @ 1200 fps.
However in some settings, close quarters, Face to Face encounters, in crowded areas I carry the G-30 with 185 Rem Golden Sabers or Speer 230 Gold Dots. :-[
With the G20 Gen 3 I pop in the Lone Wolf 10/40 barrel to warm up. It's been reliable as all.
Quote from: gandog56 on February 13 2014 12:31:51 PM MST
Quote from: sqlbullet on February 11 2014 08:31:58 AM MST
Maybe I missed something. When did bullet weight come into play? I thought we were talking about full power (Max handloads, Underwood, Buffalo Bore) vs the slightly above 40 S&W power level of most factory/practice/bulk ammo you can buy.
Well, then back to my original question. Why buy a 10mm if you are only going to shoot .40 cal equivalent loads out of it. Just buy a .40 cal and be done with it.
Seriously?
I answered that question here:
Quote from: sqlbullet on February 10 2014 01:43:49 PM MST
Quote from: gandog56 on January 30 2014 06:31:06 PM MST
Well, why buy a 10mm if you are only going to shoot .40 S&W power stuff in it?
I hear this alot on this board, and on other 10mm boards.
Simple.
Full power 10mm loads are hard on guns. They are hard on brass. They are hard on wallets. And they are hard on joints. Guns, brass and money can be replaced. Joints can't.
I almost never need full power 10mm. I certainly don't need it to chew up potatoes or clay pigeons with my kids. I don't need to to practice marksmanship. I don't need 200 grains at 1270 fps to enjoy a morning in the desert with my gun buddies.
In fact, I hope I NEVER need it. Because all the scenarios I would need it in are under dire circumstances in which I would prefer not to find myself.
But, I may need it. So, I spend my scarce and limited handgun budget on the most versatile handgun round that is commonly chambered.
That is why you buy a 10mm even if you don't mean to shoot full power 10mm auto.
My single anecdotal reference to bullet weight was not included to indicate that only heavy bullets are full power. I could just as easily said I don't need a 135 grain bullet at 1600 fps, or a 155 grain bullet at 1500 fps or a 165 grain bullet at 1400 fps. My reference was only to illustrate one example of a situation where full-power ammo is un-needed, not to introduce the irrelevant concept of bullet weight into a discussion about full power ammo.
So, to re-iterate...
The reason to own a 10mm rather than a 40 S&W,
even if you will only ever shoot 40 S&W level ammo is to have the flexibility of changing your mind at any time without any additional expense, platform familiarization, etc. In fact, the only real advantage I see to a 40 S&W gun is it is available in more diminutive sizes than a 10mm. I personally feel such small guns are actually needed even less often by most shooters than full-power 10mm ammo is.
There are many, many, many good reasons to shoot mostly 40 S&W level ammo in your 10mm, even if you do choose to carry full-power ammo for defense.
Yeah, I have never seen much reason for a .40 S&W. If I want the smaller size gun than my 10mm I'll go with 9mm or less. Even if I want to shoot .40 I'd rather do it out of my G20 with a conversion barrel.
Quote from: DAVIDF on February 14 2014 03:46:26 PM MST
Yeah, I have never seen much reason for a .40 S&W. If I want the smaller size gun than my 10mm I'll go with 9mm or less. Even if I want to shoot .40 I'd rather do it out of my G20 with a conversion barrel.
Pretty much spot on. I don't see the purpose of buying a 10mm handgun, only to carry 40SW rated ammo.
I stick with 9mm, 10mm, and 45ACP for handguns.
Quote from: DAVIDF on February 14 2014 03:46:26 PM MST
Yeah, I have never seen much reason for a .40 S&W. If I want the smaller size gun than my 10mm I'll go with 9mm or less. Even if I want to shoot .40 I'd rather do it out of my G20 with a conversion barrel.
I won't quite go that far. I like my .40 cal S&W SIG. Because I can do this with it, unlike my 9mm.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/Gandog56/40SW.jpg)
I like the idea of having different power levels. Those subsonic, FBI loads are basically a .40 and seem ideal for urban home defense or taking a CC course. To me it is like shooting .38+P out of a .357, bascially two guns for the price of one.
Quote from: CCantu357 on March 06 2014 10:14:26 PM MST
I like the idea of having different power levels. Those subsonic, FBI loads are basically a .40 and seem ideal for urban home defense or taking a CC course. To me it is like shooting .38+P out of a .357, bascially two guns for the price of one.
I only shoot .38 as cheap practice fodder out of my .357 mag. If I'm carrying it, I'm using the full blown mag rounds. I mean if you LIKE shooting .38 special, buy a .38 special.
Quote from: CCantu357 on March 06 2014 10:14:26 PM MST
I like the idea of having different power levels. Those subsonic, FBI loads are basically a .40 and seem ideal for urban home defense or taking a CC course. To me it is like shooting .38+P out of a .357, bascially two guns for the price of one.
Agreed.
Don't let these "full power or nothing" cowboys make you think you are less of a man because you're comfortable with a 180 grains going 980fps and not 1150......
"If you are going to shoot the weak stuff, you should just buy a 40".....they say....
I guess it's not just the democrats who are trying to tell me which gun I
shouldn't have.
Agreed Captian...And I love your username!
captaintrips,
After they blow up their gun due to one tiny error in the loading process they will have learned a valuable lesson; no process is perfect. If you think factory ammo or your own reloads are error proof; you are wrong. I'll keep my safety margin even if I lose a little velocity. Besides, I cant afford to beat my guns to pieces. They get shot every week and I like to keep them going.
Pretty near fullpower but not nuclear Underwoods is the HPR 180 GR XTP. Shot a box up and it shot great. Kept the other 2 for carry ammo.