I have a Glock 20 gen 4 and this is my first Glock. I absolutely love the gun it handles great, however as soon as I wanted to shoot real 10mm ammo I had multiple jambs. I had minor work done to the gun, lighter trigger pull, night sights, and slide release done by Glockmeister, who told me the std double spring should handle all ammo hot or light. Any one had this problem? Or found the cure?
You need to figure out what's happening.
First, make sure your wrists are solid. Make the recoil move your whole forearm, not just snap your wrist.
My guess it the slide moves so fast that it rebounds back under spring pressure so the next round isn't in position in the magazine yet. There will be marks in the mis-fed case where the slide has impacted the side of the case because it wasn't in position to push it from behind. Solution is a stronger recoil spring (slow down the slide), stronger magazine spring, or both.
Greg
Yes..
Underwood 180 TMJ did not run well in my Gen 3 G20. The Underwood 165 TMJ runs great. Try a different ammo, maybe start with some CCI Blazer or Federal 180 first, or even some Hornady. My suggestion would be to see how your gun runs with the lighter ammo, than try the Underwood in 165.
Good luck!
Edit: I was typing while Geeman was typing. He is probably correct, but I would try some different ammo first to narrow it down.
Quote from: 4949shooter on January 20 2014 04:01:08 AM MST
Edit: I was typing while Geeman was typing. He is probably correct, but I would try some different ammo first to narrow it down.
And finding ammo that both your gun and you like is very important, likely the most important. If you plan on using it for self defense, misfeeds need to be super rare.
Your advise is sound!!!
Greg
Let's see what happens!
My G20 needed a 22 pound RSA to fire Underwood. I don't know if they make the heavy weight RSA's yet for the Gen 4?
Quote from: 4949shooter on January 20 2014 04:27:32 AM MST
Let's see what happens!
My G20 needed a 22 pound RSA to fire Underwood. I don't know if they make the heavy weight RSA's yet for the Gen 4?
There is a bushing (adapter) to add to a steel lone wolf gen 3 guide rod, so gen3 springs will work. I have a 22# in a Gen4, but should have gone straight to a 24# for the hot stuff.
Springs loose tension. The stock Gen4 needs to be replaced regularly according to Glock. Magazine springs go weak too, especially when you keep the magazines full all the time.
There is a RSA test to do. Clear the chamber, Drop the mag, dry fire, and while holding the trigger back, point the gun straight up and pull the slide back and slowly let it return. The gun should lock by spring pressure alone. Keep the trigger pulled back during the whole operation. If it doesn't, the stock RSA needs to be replaced.
Greg
Quote from: Geeman on January 20 2014 04:45:52 AM MST
Quote from: 4949shooter on January 20 2014 04:27:32 AM MST
Let's see what happens!
My G20 needed a 22 pound RSA to fire Underwood. I don't know if they make the heavy weight RSA's yet for the Gen 4?
There is a bushing (adapter) to add to a steel lone wolf gen 3 guide rod, so gen3 springs will work. I have a 22# in a Gen4, but should have gone straight to a 24# for the hot stuff.
Greg
Ahh yes....I had forgotten about those.
Quote from: Geeman on January 20 2014 04:45:52 AM MST
snip
Springs loose tension. The stock Gen4 needs to be replaced regularly according to Glock. Magazine springs go weak too, especially when you keep the magazines full all the time.
snip
I can understand a spring being replaced due to use...
But if I remember right a spring will not get weakened by being compressed all the time.
It is the compression and expanding that causes springs to weaken over time.
Is it just me or does this seem like a common problem?
Quote from: Intercooler on January 20 2014 03:53:57 PM MST
Is it just me or does this seem like a common problem?
Is there a semi-auto anything that digests everything without a hickup?
Greg
Lots of them really.
Quote from: Geeman on January 20 2014 06:21:33 PM MST
Quote from: Intercooler on January 20 2014 03:53:57 PM MST
Is it just me or does this seem like a common problem?
Is there a semi-auto anything that digests everything without a hickup?
Greg
Quote from: Intercooler on January 20 2014 06:27:21 PM MST
Lots of them really.
But in 10mm? I don't know?? My only 10mm is a Gen3 G20SF. I only ran about 500, maybe a few more than that, before I installed the longslide setup. I've not had a problem with it set up either way.
But I do read about issues with Glocks and the 10mm. I also read about issues with every other possible pistol and 10mm. What is the one common denominator? The 10mm is, and guys tinkering with their guns and screwing them up.....
These pics show what happened when I tried Underwood 180gr TMJ in my stock G20 gen4 other day...shot maybe 10 rounds and over half had malfunctions.
However, Underwood 200gr TMJ did much better - shot 50 rds with one failure to extract.
Have not experienced any problems with Double Tap 200gr wfngc hardcast, but have only shot 10 or so as they're so pricey. The lower power stuff (PPU, Armscor) feeds fine.
I'm thinking of trying an aftermarket gen4 RSA but for the life of me can't find the thread I saw last month with that info. Seems there were 2 companies now making gen4 rsa's - anyone know who?
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Thank you for the info. I ordered a new spring assembly for my Gen 4. I actually found a link on this forum and spoke with the owner today, the website is www.spinco.com and I ordered from them after I explained I bought a 10mm and want to shoot 10mm ammo not .40. You need to call them so they know you are shooting full power stuff. I will see how this does and report back.
Thank you for the advice,
Darrin
The other website was www.dpmstemsusa.com
Quote from: G20g4 on January 20 2014 10:20:37 PM MST
Thank you for the info. I ordered a new spring assembly for my Gen 4. I actually found a link on this forum and spoke with the owner today, the website is www.spinco.com and I ordered from them after I explained I bought a 10mm and want to shoot 10mm ammo not .40. You need to call them so they know you are shooting full power stuff. I will see how this does and report back.
Thank you for the advice,
Darrin
The other website was www.dpmstemsusa.com
I've had some problems with Underwood 10mm in the past. One was caused by an overly tight Stormlake barrel. In stock configuration the gun feeds very near 100%. Newest issue from me messing around is my Arredondo mag extension is feeding really spotty.
Quote from: fanninland on January 20 2014 09:58:04 PM MST
These pics show what happened when I tried Underwood 180gr TMJ in my stock G20 gen4 other day...shot maybe 10 rounds and over half had malfunctions.
However, Underwood 200gr TMJ did much better - shot 50 rds with one failure to extract.
Have not experienced any problems with Double Tap 200gr wfngc hardcast, but have only shot 10 or so as they're so pricey. The lower power stuff (PPU, Armscor) feeds fine.
I'm thinking of trying an aftermarket gen4 RSA but for the life of me can't find the thread I saw last month with that info. Seems there were 2 companies now making gen4 rsa's - anyone know who?
Your problem is different than what I was thinking. It seems you have more of an ejection issue than a feed problem.
When I shoot Underwood, my empties wind up 15 ft away, sometimes on the roof of the pistol house. I'd have someone look at why this is happening.
Greg
I'll throw another possibility out there. It could be a problem with the ammo. I have shot many different variations of Underwood Ammo and for the most part, it shoots well out of my G20. I have had some issues however. I had some that would not eject the brass at all. I eventually pulled a few of those rounds to investigate. Each of the 3 rounds that I pulled required over 20 aggressive hits on a concrete floor to get the bullet to unseat. I actually bent the steel shaft of my puller. I am fairly new to reloading and using a bullet puller, but it seemed to me that the rounds were crimped way too tight. The bullets themselves were compressed severely where they were seated into the case. I didn't measure the diameter or take photos, but it just didn't look right. I have taken apart other rounds from Underwood, Doubletap and other off the shelf brands and have never had that much difficulty pulling a bullet, nor have I seen a bullet look like that.
The remainder of the box was returned to Underwood and replaced with perfectly functioning ammo. I'd recommend that anyone having issues with Underwood Ammo give Kevin a call.
My opinion...
With the full power ammo and the stock 17 pound spring, I believe the slide impacts the rear of the polymer frame causing it to flex slightly, which I believe creates a failure to extract issue. The solution to the problem with my G20 was to get a 22 pound RSA. This solved the problem. I think the issue is exacerbated if the shooter keeps a tight wrist lock when they are firing. The problem did not occur for me with the stock spring while being fired one handed. The extra recoil in the upwards direction I believe takes the stress off the frame.
Just my own experience and opinion, of course.
Quote from: Driftwood on January 21 2014 07:17:21 AM MST
I'll throw another possibility out there. It could be a problem with the ammo. I have shot many different variations of Underwood Ammo and for the most part, it shoots well out of my G20. I have had some issues however. I had some that would not eject the brass at all. I eventually pulled a few of those rounds to investigate. Each of the 3 rounds that I pulled required over 20 aggressive hits on a concrete floor to get the bullet to unseat. I actually bent the steel shaft of my puller. I am fairly new to reloading and using a bullet puller, but it seemed to me that the rounds were crimped way too tight. The bullets themselves were compressed severely where they were seated into the case. I didn't measure the diameter or take photos, but it just didn't look right. I have taken apart other rounds from Underwood, Doubletap and other off the shelf brands and have never had that much difficulty pulling a bullet, nor have I seen a bullet look like that.
The remainder of the box was returned to Underwood and replaced with perfectly functioning ammo. I'd recommend that anyone having issues with Underwood Ammo give Kevin a call.
Driftwood, when you use your
kinetic bullet puller try hammering it against the end grain of a piece of 4x4, this will help your puller and its operation as such. I use a piece of 4x4 about 20" long and stand it on end, be sure the cartridge is securely held by the puller, and give it a whack trying not to let it bounce. I usually start with easy taps with non cannelured cartridges, and heavier taps using heavier crimped bullets. If you have read in the pull-down sections here on this forum, you will know I pull a bunch of stuff. Most kinetic type pullers you can use the shell holders from die sets in place of the little 3 piece aluminum jaws. (
Mine are being close to worn out with over 35 years on this RCBS kinetic puller.) :o
So give this method a try see if it will help you out! Best regards! ;D
Quote from: The_Shadow on January 21 2014 05:31:37 PM MST
Quote from: Driftwood on January 21 2014 07:17:21 AM MST
I'll throw another possibility out there. It could be a problem with the ammo. I have shot many different variations of Underwood Ammo and for the most part, it shoots well out of my G20. I have had some issues however. I had some that would not eject the brass at all. I eventually pulled a few of those rounds to investigate. Each of the 3 rounds that I pulled required over 20 aggressive hits on a concrete floor to get the bullet to unseat. I actually bent the steel shaft of my puller. I am fairly new to reloading and using a bullet puller, but it seemed to me that the rounds were crimped way too tight. The bullets themselves were compressed severely where they were seated into the case. I didn't measure the diameter or take photos, but it just didn't look right. I have taken apart other rounds from Underwood, Doubletap and other off the shelf brands and have never had that much difficulty pulling a bullet, nor have I seen a bullet look like that.
The remainder of the box was returned to Underwood and replaced with perfectly functioning ammo. I'd recommend that anyone having issues with Underwood Ammo give Kevin a call.
Driftwood, when you use your kinetic bullet puller try hammering it against the end grain of a piece of 4x4, this will help your puller and its operation as such. I use a piece of 4x4 about 20" long and stand it on end, be sure the cartridge is securely held by the puller, and give it a whack trying not to let it bounce. I usually start with easy taps with non cannelured cartridges, and heavier taps using heavier crimped bullets. If you have read in the pull-down sections here on this forum, you will know I pull a bunch of stuff. Most kinetic type pullers you can use the shell holders from die sets in place of the little 3 piece aluminum jaws. (Mine are being close to worn out with over 35 years on this RCBS kinetic puller.) :o
So give this method a try see if it will help you out! Best regards! ;D
Thanks Shadow. I do typically use a block of wood to pull bullets, though I haven't tried it as you described using the end of a 4x4. I will definitely give that a try. The point I was making was that with those specific Underwood loads, striking wood did not work. The only way to get the bullet free was to hit concrete. No other ammo has given me any problems. In this case, even Kevin at Underwood admitted there was definitely a problem with the ammo, though he didn't specifically say it was over crimped. That is just my assessment.
Quote from: G20g4 on January 19 2014 11:25:54 PM MST
I have a Glock 20 gen 4 and this is my first Glock. I absolutely love the gun it handles great, however as soon as I wanted to shoot real 10mm ammo I had multiple jambs. I had minor work done to the gun, lighter trigger pull, night sights, and slide release done by Glockmeister, who told me the std double spring should handle all ammo hot or light. Any one had this problem? Or found the cure?
I had the same issues with a Gen 4. http://10mm-firearms.com/10mm-semi-auto-handguns/problems-with-failures-to-feed-with-underwood-ammo-gen-4-glock-20/ I received a lot of help from lots of people on this forum. I tried heavier Gen 3 RSA's with an adapter & the Rachis RSA which is designed specifically for Gen 4's. Nothing seemed to help. In fact, the condition seemed to deteriorate & eventually the gun was not functioning with mid-level loads with a full magazine. It would function OK with only 5 rounds in the magazine, but once it was loaded more than that it would frequently fail to feed.
The cure was that Glock replaced it with a gun of my choice. I chose a Glock 20 Gen 3. It has worked flawlessly. I had to send it to them twice but in the end everything is good. Seems like some of the Gen 4's work flawlessly & others have issues. Hope everything works out for you.
Good info on here. Just bought my first 10mm, Glock 20 gen 4, last week. I shot a total of 40 rounds (filled the magazine 4 times with 10 rounds) and had 3 FTF's.. not a good percentage as far as reliability goes, especially for a Glock. I was using PMC bronze 200 grain ammo. Other than that it was a blast to shoot 8)
Good info on here. Just bought my first 10mm, Glock 20 gen 4, last week. I shot a total of 40 rounds (filled the magazine 4 times with 10 rounds) and had 3 FTF's.. not a good percentage as far as reliability goes, especially for a Glock. I was using PMC bronze 200 grain ammo. Other than that it was a blast to shoot 8)
I'm surprised by this. Give it more of a break-in period before you can expect 100%
I received two recoil springs from Spinco took my gen 4 to the range. Still having failures with the 180 TMJ. I have some 165 TMJ on order. I will see how they work. If nothing better next phase will be to call Glock or just trade it back to Cabelas and get another 20 or different 10mm altogether. So far I am pretty disappointed with Glock. It fires weak ammo great. Maybe it's the 180 Underwood. I have spoken to Kevin if that's the problem I will just stay away from the 180. I prefer a lighter faster bullet anyways, I don't hunt with it so over penetration would be a concern.
maybe gen 4 is finicky and needs several hundred rounds through it?
when i replaced my spring to 22 pounds it still happen for a little while then got better and better. i have a captured rod so putting the recoil spring was ruff but when done the spring was all "wiggly" put when i was done and cleaning the spring had straightened out. i still need to shoot it more and make sure it is taken care of for my comfort. i have the gen 2 model
I don't think the amount of rounds is going to change the function.
These Gen4's seem to suffer the new car model first yr syndrome. I run the Gen 3 with a steel guide rod and 22lb spring from Wolff. Eats it all.
I agree with IC, some guns just don't like a certain type of ammo.
Been to the range and 3 of the 4 boxes fed fine. No jams, last box had multiple jambs. Fired one box of 165 TMJ zero failures. Maybe it is breaking in or got a bad batch. Will definitely continue to shoot Underwood ammo.
Quote from: G20g4 on February 05 2014 12:29:14 AM MST
Been to the range and 3 of the 4 boxes fed fine. No jams, last box had multiple jambs. Fired one box of 165 TMJ zero failures. Maybe it is breaking in or got a bad batch. Will definitely continue to shoot Underwood ammo.
Hope it all works out for you, keep us posted.
Count me in as another who has FTF issues. I've had it since I first got it new from dealer (GSSF order) March '13. Happens with off the shelf ammo, Underwood, PBR Premium 165gr, and with .40 Winchester from Walmart (100 rd box) with my .40 KKM conversion barrel. Decided to just send it back to Glock last week while I still have remaining warranty, let them screw with it. I'm wondering though if I could have just order 3 new mag springs and solved the problem...who knows...
It appears I had a bad batch of 180 TMJ I reported it to Kevin which lot # I had no problems with and the one I had the problem with. I shot all the ammo, he would have replaced what I hadn't shot. Have had no problems with the 165 TMJ so will continue to shoot that until he has 155 TMJ in stock. Thanks for all the help everyone.
I don't have any issues with FTE with my stock Gen 4. Only experiencing lots of FTFeed with the last round of all 3 of my blocked and pinned magazines (15 to 10 round). I've only used Underwood 165 TMJ and Underwood 180 TMJ. I finally bought a 10 round magazine so I hope my problems will go away.
When you say bad lot of 180's. Bad how?
Just thought I'd give a little update here. I bought my G20 gen4 a few weeks back, shot it the day of with 40 rnds of 200 grain pmc bronze. I had 3 FTFs on the very last round. I had loaded the mag with 10rnds 4 times. Did some reading on here, saw some guys having similar issues and suggested changing out recoil springs and such but before I did all that I wanted to test mine some more. I ordered some 180grain HP XTP from Underwood since that is what I wanted to keep in the gun for defense. This go round I loaded the mag 3 times to capacity of 15 rounds and only had one FTF... the very last round on the very last mag. So for now Ill probably leave the gun as is and try some Underwood 180 TMJ in the future.
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y275/grantsmax/IMG_20140226_182106_881_zpsoecp24by.jpg)
What was the Lot # of the Underwood 180 TMJ's that gave you problems? I have a Gen 2 Glock 20 and also have problems with Underwood 180 TMJ's. I have shot 50 rounds of Blazer & 20 Corbon 165 with stock RSA, no problems & no Smiles. Heard about the stronger spring needed for Underwood so I ordered a Wolff 22lb and a Stainless Guide Rod.
Next session with the new 22 lb uncaptured spring, I shot 50 American Eagle & 50 Underwood, alternating by magazine. American Eagle was flawless with the 22 lb spring. Only got through 30 Underwood with 7-8 FTFper magazine. Didn't have the stock RSA with me so went home & changed it out.
Came back to the range & tried the other 20 Underwood with the stock RSA, same problem. Finished the 20 Underwood 180 TMJ's along with 10 Buffalo Bore 155 Barnes using the stock RSA. The BB 155's ran flawless, but did shoot low & left by about 4". 8 of the 10 BB 155's had Major Smiles. FWIW, all the other stuff shot to POA at 15 yards & no obvious Smiles.
Any suggestions?
Forgive me if this is a noob question/suggestion but, maybe the problem is more with the mag springs than the RSA? Maybe stiffer mag springs are needed?
Interesting thread, but has some apparent derp here & there.
Regarding spring wear: Someone already correctly mentioned that cycling a spring is what wears is out, not static loading.
Regarding RSA (Gen4 I think) and handling all loads, weak to strong: Sounds highly suspicious. Hope it works for you.
Regarding frame flex with a stock/light RSA: The case is (should be) already extracted by the time the slide is all the way back. Thus any flex upon slide/frame impact cannot affect extraction.
Regarding stock/light RSA and smilies [I am speculating a bit here and would appreciate thoughtful feedback]: All slow motion video of a round being fired clearly shows the bullet exiting the barrel before the slide begins to move rearward. I suspect that once the bullet exits the barrel, the pressure within the barrel drops significantly. I propose that since the pressure drops, the only time a smilie is produced is while the pressure is high and the bullet is still in the barrel. And since the slide has not moved while the bullet is in the barrel, the RSA strength is not a factor in the occurrence of smilies.
For the record, I have a G20SF (almost 1 year old) and have fired most, if not all, of the ammo mentioned thus far in this thread without issue using the stock RSA. No smilies. No FTF. No FTE. I am not suggesting that nobody else is having issues, but I do suspect user mods have unforeseen consequences and mags/mag springs are often overlooked (also recently mentioned).
So, in summary: user mods and mags/mag springs are likely culprits.
And as a 10mm newbie, I am curious about the accepted practice of replacing the stock RSA. Is there some body of evidence and analysis that indicates it is necessary, or just speculation?
[I may sound a bit like a jerk, but I am seriously trying to learn.]
You will know you need a heavier weight RSA if you have malfunctions with hot ammo fired, but not with low powered or medium powered ammo.
Other than that, some guys use the heavier springs because thy feel the extra weight helps keep frame battering down to a minimum with the hot ammo.
I don't have the info on the ammo I had trouble with. One particular lot number I had significantly more FTF of Underwood 180 TMJ. Still had a few with the other lot number. I ordered a Sprinco Cor-Bon recoil system, it does significantly reduce felt recoil however I had more FTF. So I switched to 165 TMJ from Underwood, no FTF with stock recoil spring however many with the Sprico. So I increased the mag springs from Wolf. Helped a little. I sent the Spinco system back. I may try it in the future but the std one not the Cor-Bon. I have ordered 30 boxes of Underwood 165 TMJ now and my 20 seems to like it. Just bought a 29 g4 2 weeks ago. It hasn't had a single problem which is good considering that is my carry gun. I may try a box or 2 of 180s in the future if he is out of 165. My defense loads I am carrying is 135 Nosler. Anyone tested this for penetration? It seems like it would be a perfect round.
Quote from: G20g4 on March 14 2014 12:29:54 AM MDT
I don't have the info on the ammo I had trouble with. One particular lot number I had significantly more FTF of Underwood 180 TMJ. Still had a few with the other lot number. I ordered a Sprinco Cor-Bon recoil system, it does significantly reduce felt recoil however I had more FTF. So I switched to 165 TMJ from Underwood, no FTF with stock recoil spring however many with the Sprico. So I increased the mag springs from Wolf. Helped a little. I sent the Spinco system back. I may try it in the future but the std one not the Cor-Bon. I have ordered 30 boxes of Underwood 165 TMJ now and my 20 seems to like it. Just bought a 29 g4 2 weeks ago. It hasn't had a single problem which is good considering that is my carry gun. I may try a box or 2 of 180s in the future if he is out of 165. My defense loads I am carrying is 135 Nosler. Anyone tested this for penetration? It seems like it would be a perfect round.
Raggedyman did testing of the 135 Nosler. It didn't penetrate quite deep enough. 8" I think is what it got. I would recommend 155 gr or 165 gr.
I have some Underwood 155 gr XTP so I staggered the mags with some of those mixed in, I have seen other tests and the 135 gr penetrates almost a foot with 4 layers of denim. I am sure I will never need it but over penetration is an issue where I live. I am sure what I have will be plenty. Wouldn't mind having some Underwood Gold Dots. They got 180 gr today and plan to load them next week. I have some Buffalo Boar 180 gr so I am sure it's the same basically.
Quote from: G20g4 on March 21 2014 11:20:07 PM MDT
I have some Underwood 155 gr XTP so I staggered the mags with some of those mixed in, I have seen other tests and the 135 gr penetrates almost a foot with 4 layers of denim. I am sure I will never need it but over penetration is an issue where I live. I am sure what I have will be plenty. Wouldn't mind having some Underwood Gold Dots. They got 180 gr today and plan to load them next week. I have some Buffalo Boar 180 gr so I am sure it's the same basically.
Let us know how the Gold Dots do!