Yondering, One of the memebrs here, a very knowledgeable handloader as well started a thread over at GlockTalk. His pictures of "SMILED" cross sectioned brass before and after "pass thru sizing"
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1403261 (http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1403261)
Here is what a "SMILED" case looks like
(https://s20.postimg.cc/l5imag9p9/40_S_W_Smile_Cross_Section.jpg)
The metal has started to shear/tear and resizing and or pass thru sizing will not fix that situation to make them safe to re-use period!
This is after pass thru sizing and is on the left side and it is still there but a little less, he sectioned two bulged cases, but ran the other one through a Lee FCD first to smooth out the bulge, just to see what that looks like. It does the job it's supposed to (let the brass chamber) but that "lip" is still there, and I wouldn't use that brass again.
(https://s20.postimg.cc/yyki9tn4t/40_case_Cross_Section.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.cc/l4w5krmtp/40_brass_Cross_Section_Smile.jpg)
Just keep in mind that from the evidence in the pictures you can see that a "SMILED" casing can not be repaired.
A BIG Thanks to Yondering for his work and pictures!
I finally got the Lee FCD and the bulge buster kit. Silly question. I noticed if I put the 10mm brass upside down on the ram I could increase my throughput by almost double and, not worry about my left hand leaving a finger too close when my right hand was starting to raise the ram. :o You'd think those two hands would talk a little more than that. Oh, yeah, the question, do you think it matters which direction the brass goes through the FCD? :-\
The pin I use will not fit inside the case so I have to push on the case head pushing the mouth inside the die first.
Quote from: The_Shadow on July 14 2012 07:14:29 PM MDT
The pin I use will not fit inside the case so I have to push on the case head pushing the mouth inside the die first.
Mine doesn't fit, either. I tried .40's inverted (just curious if there would be a difference/advantage) using a smaller anvil, and it lengthened the case. It also etched the case web, which was never designed or intended to be impacted by steel (it isn't flat). The cases are drawn in this manner (like inverted through the BB), so it stands to reason it would elongate. The handle force necessary was about the same either way, so no advantage. Only a negative outcome. The case was fine before, but beyond max length after so I tossed it, and the idea. A bulged 10mm (or .45 or .380) would likely see the same fate.
I have run them through both ways. I prefer mouth first. Like was said, it tends to stretch the brass the other way.
I have never used a pass thru sizer die... never had the need.
A word on a case with such damage. IT WILL FAIL... Its best to toss it in the scrap bucket. They CANNOT BE REPAIRED!
As for the Lee, FCD.. I like to call it the solution to a non existent problem... ;D :o
CW
Not even worth it for plinkers. Why take the chance.
Quote from: cwlongshot on July 16 2012 04:31:47 PM MDT
I have never used a pass thru sizer die... never had the need.
A word on a case with such damage. IT WILL FAIL... Its best to toss it in the scrap bucket. They CANNOT BE REPAIRED!
As for the Lee, FCD.. I like to call it the solution to a non existent problem... ;D :o
CW
I call it cheap insurance... ;D
Quote from: cwlongshot on July 16 2012 04:31:47 PM MDT
I have never used a pass thru sizer die... never had the need.
A word on a case with such damage. IT WILL FAIL... Its best to toss it in the scrap bucket. They CANNOT BE REPAIRED!
As for the Lee, FCD.. I like to call it the solution to a non existent problem... ;D :o
CW
Sorry, I disagree. A little Glock bulge can be fixed in once shot brass. I have had a few, and they still take reloading after 6-7 times later. (That's the most I've reloaded my 10mm cases so far)
Quote from: gandog56 on March 14 2013 02:16:22 PM MDT
Quote from: cwlongshot on July 16 2012 04:31:47 PM MDT
I have never used a pass thru sizer die... never had the need.
A word on a case with such damage. IT WILL FAIL... Its best to toss it in the scrap bucket. They CANNOT BE REPAIRED!
As for the Lee, FCD.. I like to call it the solution to a non existent problem... ;D :o
CW
Sorry, I disagree. A little Glock bulge can be fixed in once shot brass. I have had a few, and they still take reloading after 6-7 times later. (That's the most I've reloaded my 10mm cases so far)
I do not feel we are comparing apples to apples here... ;)
I agree, a LITTLE bulge CAN be straightened and reused with likely no fail.
The pic I was speaking of clearly has nearly sheared and just like any piece fop metal becomes fatigued to the point of imminent failure.
CW
Yep, but how would you know it unless you cut a case in a cross section. I've probably never gotten one that badly damaged.
In my mind that's always been the difference between a lite bulge and an actual smile. I thought if there was no smile, then there was no actual shearing taking place yet. Maybe I'm wrong. Just seemed logical.
Quote from: REDLINE on March 15 2013 02:55:18 AM MDT
In my mind that's always been the difference between a lite bulge and an actual smile. I thought if there was no smile, then there was no actual shearing taking place yet. Maybe I'm wrong. Just seemed logical.
I would agree, a bulge lacks any sharp edge. Brass is quite forgiving and although any movement ''works'' the brass into a weaker state, the less it moves the better or longer it lasts. The sharp bend of a smile are what makes the brass scrap.
CW
The big concern I see is what if it tries to smile the same place twice? That is why I toss any brass that smiles at me.
The "bulge buster" is safely used on cartridges fired in generous chambers like Glocks where case head expansion may have been large. A full length die may not size these far enough down to return all of the head back a dimension that works reliably.
For instance, same loads fired in my Witness, Para and Glock...The Glock brass will be .005"-.007" bigger at the head after firing. No smile, all the way around same measure. The bulge buster puts these back to spec .425"
The Lee FCD and BB do exactly what they are designed to do. Use them, or don't, your choice. Has anyone actually read the BB product description or instruction sheet? The documentation that came with my BB kit clearly states, immediately below the first paragraph (product description), "Do not use the Bulge Buster Kit to reload for the 40 S&W Glock or similar guns with chambers that do not fully support the cartridge due to the intrusion of the feed ramp."
It seems Lee has already had this discussion. If you use the BB on Glock fired brass, you aren't using it as designed. I use it on Glock fired brass, but as has been repeated, there's no comparison between a "bulge" and a "smile". Smiles are junk. Excessive bulge is junk. The warning is a CYA statement, and as with any process of handloading, use at your own risk.
This ^^^
To take the most care you ought to measure each case head for expansion and concentricity and toss any that deviate above certain levels. Not conducive to speedy reloading though, so we just toss the smiles and BB the rest.
When I am working up loads I watch this REALLY closely. After the load is proven, I do look the cases over before loading, but also feel them as I de-prime, prime, re-size. If I ''feel'' a swell its likely too much and I toss it in the scrap bucket.
CW
It all goes back to knowing you equipment, and its short comings! Myself, I inspect them & "Pass-Thru" size all my 10mm, 40S&W, 357Sig and 9x25Dillon cartridges using the LEE FCD with the guts removed, taking advantage of the carbide ring, which provides me with the best reconditioning & uniforming of my cases. I don't care what LEE states, I'm glad they made the FCD with a carbide sizing ring which has been great for this step and cheaper than the Redding's product which was made to do the "Pass-Thru sizing thing!
I also "Pass-Thru" my 45ACP's, for the same reasons...
And I went with the Redding which I believe came out before any carbide FCD die was made.
Could be wrong there, but I Think the Redding was advertised as the ONLY absolutely full length case sizer.
I was looking for the section where people post up recepies. I do have a question for the discussion of equipment though... How do you guys have your dies set up? I have mine set up so that the Lee Decap/Resize die only resizes about a 1/4" of the case mouth and I use the FCD to streighten the wall and light crimp the tip into place. I mention this only because the rounds seem to come out better when I do it this way imho, and everything done when reloading has an affect on the final product. Of coarse since I use aftermarket and tight chambered barrels in all of my firearms my brass does not buldge as much and is therefore resized signifigantly less and has lasted longer for me, but I have tenth generation full power reloads that I feel I would not have had, had I not switched to the die set up I have now.
Well being new to the forum you have a lot to look over for your answer. With your chamber being one with better case support really helps to minimize case stretch / bulges. These two links may help your quest.
http://10mm-firearms.com/reloading-10mm-ammo/how-to-use-lee-fcd-without-full-length-sizing/ (http://10mm-firearms.com/reloading-10mm-ammo/how-to-use-lee-fcd-without-full-length-sizing/)
http://10mm-firearms.com/reloading-10mm-ammo/pass-thru-sizing-using-lee-fcd/ (http://10mm-firearms.com/reloading-10mm-ammo/pass-thru-sizing-using-lee-fcd/)
Quote from: knowntofew on June 18 2013 12:22:26 PM MDTI was looking for the section where people post up recepies.
We don't have a subforum specifically for 10mm Handload Recipes. Some post that information in the 10mm Reloading subforum where we are right now. You can always request a new subforum here - http://10mm-firearms.com/questionssuggestions/ (http://10mm-firearms.com/questionssuggestions/) We do have the Factory Ammo Pull-Down subforums for factory ammo loads of 10mm and otherwise showing what the manufacturers are creating their loads with.
I personally would second the motion for a subforum limited to handloaded 10mm recipes.
But I only USE one recipe for my 10mm!
Well, maybe someday I will see a real deal in a different weight 10mm bullet and snap it up. But it would have to beat the current 185 grain @ $108/1000 shipping included I'm paying now.
If I had more time it would be fun to develop a site for 10mm handloads. A forum is less than idea as a way to catalog that type of data. I think a Wiki combined with a custom database drive site for load data would be idea.
handloads.10mm-firearms.com....
Wish I had the time to get that site up and running.
Maybe once my house is finished I will have a few hours.
Quote from: sqlbullet on June 26 2013 09:37:22 AM MDTIf I had more time it would be fun to develop a site for 10mm handloads.
AMEN to that! 8)
Quote from: cwlongshot on March 15 2013 03:35:28 AM MDT
Quote from: REDLINE on March 15 2013 02:55:18 AM MDT
In my mind that's always been the difference between a lite bulge and an actual smile. I thought if there was no smile, then there was no actual shearing taking place yet. Maybe I'm wrong. Just seemed logical.
I would agree, a bulge lacks any sharp edge. Brass is quite forgiving and although any movement ''works'' the brass into a weaker state, the less it moves the better or longer it lasts. The sharp bend of a smile are what makes the brass scrap.
OK ... the above seems to get at the essence of my question: smiles have a sharp edge, bulges do not. But what exactly causes that sharp edge? I've seen several posts that (I think) suggest that that sharp edge is caused by the expanding case being pushed against the edge of the feed ramp. Is that always the cause? Does it occur for both chamber-mounted feed ramps AND frame-mounted feed ramps? Does it occur only in "unsupported barrels"? Can it occur in essentially all makes and models of the 10mm: Glocks, Witnesses, 1911's with feed-ramp barrels (like the Kimber (and most other 1911's, I think)), 1911's without feed-ramp barrels (like the Colt Delta Elite), older S&W 10mm models, ... ?
Yes to all of the above Mike. Pretty much all semi-auto pistol barrels are "unsupported" to a degree, regardless of the manufacturers claims. (Revolver chambers are fully supported, you won't see a "smiley" from one of those.) High pressure expanding the case, or the case head, against the feed ramp causes the smiley mark. Chambers with a more generous feed ramp will do this at a lower pressure, but it's always an indication to back down, like right now! I think many shooters here don't realize how close a smiley is to a full case blowout, but just a small change in pressure or case strength will turn a smiley into a blowout.
Quote from: Yondering on December 01 2013 06:15:48 PM MST
Yes to all of the above Mike. Pretty much all semi-auto pistol barrels are "unsupported" to a degree, regardless of the manufacturers claims. (Revolver chambers are fully supported, you won't see a "smiley" from one of those.)
Thanks for your response.
And I guess that "bulges" are not due to the case being creased by an abrupt edge (and so are smooth), and so (I guess) are caused by the temporary chamber expansion exceeding the elastic yield limit of the brass? Or perhaps, some case expansion after ejection has started, and the rear of the brass is already clear of the barrel?
Yondering has it right
Quotealways an indication to back down, like right now!
The simple fact regardless, the flowing, plasticity or the elastic yield limit of the brass, it is starting to shear on a molecular level against the area that lacks support. Excessive bulging can be looked at as recycle materials as well.
You need to be careful who is selling brass as well, they run the brass through a roll-sizer, you may not even know just how bad the brass was stretched out prior to the sizing? ???
Conclusion:
NOTHING CAN FIX THAT BRASS :o (short of melting it down and starting as new brass)
Quote from: The_Shadow on December 02 2013 08:50:28 AM MST
You need to be careful who is selling brass as well, they run the brass through a roll-sizer, you may not even know just how bad the brass was stretched out prior to the sizing? ???
For the cost of new brass, compared to what most guys want for once-fired, I just stick with new brass when buying. That solves the problem of how used brass was used before I got it.
Well, I just run any used brass through my Bulge Buster dies, and have had no problems.
Of course, both my 10mm pistols have full case support, unlike Glocks.
Quote from: gandog56 on December 05 2013 07:48:55 AM MST
[...] both my 10mm pistols have full case support, unlike Glocks.
What are your two 10mm's? (Just curious).
Quote from: Mike_Fontenot on December 05 2013 09:15:52 AM MST
Quote from: gandog56 on December 05 2013 07:48:55 AM MST
[...] both my 10mm pistols have full case support, unlike Glocks.
What are your two 10mm's? (Just curious).
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/Gandog56/CappieHunterTradXlElite-3.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/Gandog56/Picture1.jpg)
That's because I fooled you. That's the box from my 1911 Springfield Armory 1011A1GI. The gun in it is my Dan Wesson Razorback 10mm.
I got some of my first offensive "smiles" today from my new Mech-Tech. :( :o >:( >:(
I need to check my loadings but it was my 175 TC cast bullet... I did not believe it to be even warm...
CW
You have to really look to see the smiley on brass out of my glock 20, in most cases you cannot feel it at all. If i ever find my good calipers i will measure how much it averages. Its a late gen 3 gun so maybe it has better tolerances than older guns. I dont remember if my 23 leaves bad ones or not, only shot it a handful of times, if my theory on the 20 is right it wont be bad either. Its only 6 months or so old.
If there is a distinct line they are "smiled", rounded bulge can be ironed out by pass-through sizing.
I have heard of others havings "SMILES" from the Mech-Tech and in one instance a case blowout. The chamber does lack some support and as such the slower burning powders should produce better results getting the bullets moving and building a head of steam.
Faster powders tend to pop the brass out, before the bullets get going.
Quote from: The_Shadow on March 29 2015 05:31:43 PM MDT
I have heard of others havings "SMILES" from the Mech-Tech and in one instance a case blowout. The chamber does lack some support and as such the slower burning powders should produce better results getting the bullets moving and building a head of steam.
Every piece of brass I recovered from my last Mechtech range time was OK, so I'm not sure where you heard that Mechtech causes them is correct.
You need to remember the MT is a blow back NOT a locked breech design... It relies upon the mass of its large bolt. The 10MM as we know is a magnum without the name. :P ;D 37.5K compared to 21, 19, 25 for other ACP calibers...
I will play with different powders looking for a pressure curve more inline with the blow back.. IF I need to load lighter, so be it, ill be getting a gain in energy and vel from the 16" barrel anyhow.
CW
Okay I know this is an old thread but I do have some questions that I feel I need to gets some feedback on ihave a late Gen 3 G20sf dated July 2014 Dom so I don't know how much more my barrel is supported but I did notice after 2x hot loads the case expanded to .428 with no obvious smileys and I just got.my bulge buster kit,and I want to run it through to get rid of the bulge. My question is I know the lee instructions say to install the pin in the Shell holder and pass the cartridge threw butt end first, but I have also read on some previous posts that you should run it mouth first so you stretch the brass towards the Web of the case instead of stretching it towards the mouth and causing the case to become progressively thinner,so I guess I what Iam asking which end should I pass through the die first?Please explain your answers so I can make a educated decision.
thanks all.
I run my cases through the FCD as a pass through die mouth to the head. The pin I use is the same size as a 40 cal bullet and would get stuck inside the cases if I tried to push them head to mouth. I do this with 10mm, 40S&W, 357Sig and 9x25 Dillon casings as I want to insure the best reliable feeding with my ammo. Yes it is an extra step, but it is also another chance to inspect the casings. Thousands and thousands of them and yes I have even tested the reconditioning of SMILED cases, while it does size them to fit, It will not fix them.
The Glock 20SF has a good FACTORY chamber support but the hotter loads will get to 0.4340" (about 0.012" over a sized cartridge), any more than that and SMILES will appear at the feed ramp... keep in mind this is with good quality brass. Not all brass cases are equal, some are softer some can be more brittle.
Measure you chamber with a good set of calipers, side to side and up and down and deep and shallow and you will get a better idea of your chamber's support and what you see on fired brass. Also remember brass when fired fills the chamber to seal it, then slightly shrinks as pressure drops.
Good luck with your process. ;)
Thank you Shadow ,I have already tossed anything close to a smile,aand now I will try passing through the bulge buster as you suggested, btw all the info I have gained from knowledgeable members from here has saved me tons of headaches.
Quote from: halfglocked on August 21 2015 12:31:06 AM MDT
Okay I know this is an old thread but I do have some questions that I feel I need to gets some feedback on ihave a late Gen 3 G20sf dated July 2014 Dom so I don't know how much more my barrel is supported but I did notice after 2x hot loads the case expanded to .428 with no obvious smileys and I just got.my bulge buster kit,and I want to run it through to get rid of the bulge. My question is I know the lee instructions say to install the pin in the Shell holder and pass the cartridge threw butt end first, but I have also read on some previous posts that you should run it mouth first so you stretch the brass towards the Web of the case instead of stretching it towards the mouth and causing the case to become progressively thinner,so I guess I what Iam asking which end should I pass through the die first?Please explain your answers so I can make a educated decision.
thanks all.
I have the Lee Bulge Buster kit, complete with the instruction sheet. Unless the kit has been significantly updated/changed, your description doesn't make sense, for a couple reasons. My instructions describe, and show an image of, case mouth up, with case head down against the ram. The ram pin is too short to pass 10mm or .45ACP cases fully through. The ram pin is sharply/squarely cut, meaning that if significant force is required (not unusual), it would score the web base radius, creating a dangerous condition that may lead to case head separation at high pressure. The instructions also suggest, "Now slide a resized or loaded cartridge into the base of the Factory Crimp die and raise the ram to push the case completely through the die." Doing this with an inverted (bullet down), loaded cartridge would be ill-advised. Nowhere in my instructions does it suggest they should be inserted case head first.
That said, I'd like to see a pic of your kit and instruction sheet, as well as the measurements of your ram piece. Mine measures .362" dia. and .497" from top to press ram surface, so any case smaller than .40 won't fit inverted, and .40SW case mouths actually contact the base of the ram before fully engaged. If it has been redesigned, it may be less dangerous (and possible) to do them inverted. I've done this as The_Shadow described, with a .357 bullet sizing ram (because the BB kit ram is too short), and measured cases were the same, case head up or down. My thought at the time was similar to your instruction's suggestion that case demensions would be affected differently, but they weren't. Since then, I've always inserted cases mouth first, and will continue this method.
YDM1906 ; you are right sorry about the late reply I've been tied up but I re-read the instructions and yes it does say mouth first.
Quote from: halfglocked on August 25 2015 12:10:29 AM MDT
YDM1906 ; you are right sorry about the late reply I've been tied up but I re-read the instructions and yes it does say mouth first.
No problem. I'm more interested in folks getting it right than being right. It was curious, though. Lee doensn't change much in their design over time. They usually just release new products and phase out the old. One thing I can say about them is, new repair parts fit old components. I've been using many of their products for over 30 years, and recently had to refurbish an old press. New parts fit perfect.
that's really good to know ,I hate when you buy something and when you order replacement parts they don't fit because they have been upgraded or "improved " and then you have to end tossing the original and change completely to the new design which a couple years down the road will be redesigned again.
Great info! OP, thanks for posting.
Very interesting info..thank you for sharing. .the way I see it ..it's easier to replace brass than fingers..why take the chance..I had a blow out from loading extra hot rounds and it wasn't fun
When I first bought a Glock 40 and a RIA Combat Commander I was running some factory Underwood 140 grain Xtreme Penetrator ammo through the two guns. They were clocking well up into the 1600s. The SMILES on the Glock brass looked like the web was about to fail. The ones from the RAI were very small as it has a supported chamber.
As these round were going much faster than Underwood advertises I contacted them and they sent a shipping label for its return and sent me some new ammo. In the meantime I discovered that the used Glock 40 I had purchased had aftermarket Ghost parts... I contacted the original owner who sent me the original factory springs and connector. After putting them in the problems all disappeared.
Apparently the reduced poundage striker spring was letting the slide unlock faster that the stock spring and as a result the pressure had not dropped causing the bulged case webs. I have since added a Lone Wolf stainless recoil spring assembly and the gun shoots smoother than with the stock plastic unit...
Underwood ammo...
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Semiauto%20handguns/007_zpspp6uhcnu.jpg)
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Bullet%20Tests/004_zpsjdnlz0p7.jpg)
Glock compared to RIA..
(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b77/RJM52/Bullet%20Tests/002_zps6nfucrvk.jpg)
Being a 37 year .38 Super shooter I am used to bulged brass. Lee makes a .38 Super die that takes all the bulge out so all my brass now will go completely into a Wilson gauge...
I am wondering how many Glock shooters who are blowing cases have had reduced power striker springs in their guns...
Bob
Yeah...Those are bulged beyond recovery. The metal is definitely sheared, and while you can size them back into shape, the weakness will always be there.
Bob writes;
QuoteApparently the reduced poundage striker spring was letting the slide unlock faster that the stock spring and as a result the pressure had not dropped causing the bulged case webs.
I don't think the striker spring has any effect on the early unlocking of the slide. The recoil spring and the pressure applied does make some effect to early unlocking. I actually measured the difference of the factory captured RSA and the Wolff non captive RSA setup I use.
See this Link; http://10mm-firearms.com/gunsmithing/wolff-gun-springs/msg27955/#msg27955 (http://10mm-firearms.com/gunsmithing/wolff-gun-springs/msg27955/#msg27955)
I've looked for a force gauge that measures a PUSH instead of a PULL, but without any luck. Such a gauge would make it easy to measure the force required to start the slide moving rearward, and it would be helpful in monitoring the current strength (and possible weakening) of the recoil spring. I was surprised to learn a year or so ago that just because the rest-length of the recoil spring quits shortening after a while, that doesn't mean that the spring isn't continuing to get weaker.
My setup was sort of crude, I used a Berkley digital fish scale and a small "C" clamp padded but clamped on the rear of the slide for each test. Taking the scale and pulling rearward taking readings as soon as the slide started to move from lock and again at the point the slide started to lock back.
The fish scale was not the best thing but it was workable with repeatable measurements as many were taken and needed to verify results. If I would have placed the frame in a jig or fixture, like clamping a block of wood (the size of a magazine) in a vise and sliding the gun over it to secure it it would have made for faster and better measurements.
Pulling as straight as possible to the rear is what would yield the results without added stresses.