I will put the link to this if you want to have a look:
http://rugerforum.net/ammo-dump/93122-cool-stats-one-stopping-power.html
I find it interesting that most calibers have a better stop % using the lighter weight bullets for caliber... 185 vs 230, 165 vs 180, 125 vs 158, 210 vs 240, etc...
I still like my 155's in 10mm for personal work.
10 loads
10 mm Stopping Power, all bullet weights
Brand Bullet Shootings One Shot Stops Percent Diameter Penetration Notes
Federal 155 gr JHP 20 18 90% 0.73" 12.4"
Corbon 150 gr JHP 10 9 90% 0.82" 11.1"
Winchester 175 gr ST 64 56 88% 0.76" 10.8"
Winchester 175 gr ST 28 24 86% 0.69" 12.4" 4" barrel or less
Federal 180 gr HS 57 49 86% 0.66" 12.9"
Federal 180 gr HS 19 16 84% 0.61" 13.2" 4" barrel or less
Federal 180 gr JHP 45 38 84% 0.68" 13.4"
Federal 180 gr JHP 11 9 82% 0.63" 13.9" 4" barrel or less
Winchester 180 gr JHP 59 48 82% 0.63" 14.6"
Remington 180 gr JHP 48 29 81% 0.67" 13.7"
Quote from: Intercooler on December 01 2013 07:51:24 AM MST
I will put the link to this if you want to have a look:
http://rugerforum.net/ammo-dump/93122-cool-stats-one-stopping-power.html
I find it interesting that most calibers have a better stop % using the lighter weight bullets for caliber... 185 vs 230, 165 vs 180, 125 vs 158, 210 vs 240, etc...
I still like my 155's in 10mm for personal work.
Yep, .357 Magnum was king back when those stats were compiled. The .40 165 grain loads are doing well also.
Not enough shootings in 10mm to give a valid data sample. The Winchester Silvertip was rated 88% according to Marshall & Sanow's statistics....56 stops out of 64 shootings. The Corbon 150 grain load had 9 stops out of 10 shooting, for 90%. The Federal 155 grain jhp had 18 stops out of 20 shootings for 90%.
Again, this is according to Marshall & Sanow, if you subscribe to their testing. I would love to see data on some of the modern loads, but police departments are not using the 10mm and civilians aren't carrying it enough these days.
Edit: Opps! I see you posted the data already.
I like Evan. One should really pay attention to someone who spent 20 years as a cop in Detroit, attended scores of autopsies and was involved in four deadly force encounters. That said, Evan hasn't collected data since 9/11. Dave Spaulding has hinted that he is collecting data. I keep hoping that he will write a book or even an article with some updated results. I'm really curious about DPX and HST.
Quote from: enidpd804 on December 01 2013 08:07:28 AM MST
I like Evan. One should really pay attention to someone who spent 20 years as a cop in Detroit, attended scores of autopsies and was involved in four deadly force encounters. That said, Evan hasn't collected data since 9/11. Dave Spaulding has hinted that he is collecting data. I keep hoping that he will write a book or even an article with some updated results. I'm really curious about DPX and HST.
No doubt. Even the naysayers could learn a thing or two from Evan.
I put this into the master sheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ak5OC6bPsjO8dEh6eGZ3N3hpUU13SXM5cm9pZy16T0E&usp=drive_web#gid=11
Very nice. It looks like in 10mm and .40 calibers, the light-medium and medium weight bullets do best.
Quote from: 4949shooter on December 01 2013 08:11:01 AM MST
Quote from: enidpd804 on December 01 2013 08:07:28 AM MST
I like Evan. One should really pay attention to someone who spent 20 years as a cop in Detroit, attended scores of autopsies and was involved in four deadly force encounters. That said, Evan hasn't collected data since 9/11. Dave Spaulding has hinted that he is collecting data. I keep hoping that he will write a book or even an article with some updated results. I'm really curious about DPX and HST.
No doubt. Even the naysayers could learn a thing or two from Evan.
I was typing my reply when you posted. The .357 125 grain round's success made me think the 10mm 135gr. would be really successful. They just came out too late to help the 10mm win public favor. Imagine a 10 with a 135 grain HST doing 1400+fps. 8)
In addition, Mas Ayoob has stated the 180 jhp rounds (~1250 fps) carried back then by the Kentucky State Police did well. No percentages though.
Quote from: enidpd804 on December 01 2013 08:21:02 AM MST
Quote from: 4949shooter on December 01 2013 08:11:01 AM MST
Quote from: enidpd804 on December 01 2013 08:07:28 AM MST
I like Evan. One should really pay attention to someone who spent 20 years as a cop in Detroit, attended scores of autopsies and was involved in four deadly force encounters. That said, Evan hasn't collected data since 9/11. Dave Spaulding has hinted that he is collecting data. I keep hoping that he will write a book or even an article with some updated results. I'm really curious about DPX and HST.
No doubt. Even the naysayers could learn a thing or two from Evan.
I was typing my reply when you posted. The .357 125 grain round's success made me think the 10mm 135gr. would be really successful. They just came out too late to help the 10mm win public favor. Imagine a 10 with a 135 grain HST doing 1400+fps. 8)
I would like to see the stats on that one! Only when you care to send the very best. ;D
The 150gr Cor-Bon has been gel tested already. I sent the 155gr Federal listed in the data to Chopinbloc already for testing. It will be interesting to see!
Quote from: Intercooler on December 01 2013 08:24:31 AM MST
The 150gr Cor-Bon has been gel tested already. I sent the 155gr Federal listed in the data to Chopinbloc already for testing. It will be interesting to see!
If you read Evan's book, the 150 grain Corbon had a dismal failure to stop. The shooter gave up his 10mm and procured a revolver in .44 mag because of it. I know 10 shootings is not a good sample, but the incident sticks out in my mind, and I would not carry the Corbon 150 because of it.
I'm sure today's new bullets have helped those 10mm percentages greatly. If someone would offer or do development on the 10mm like 9mm has it would really prosper. We will never know for sure about the new offerings because it isn't used for law enforcement. I really like the way those Underwood 155 GD's looked like huge Spiders :o
Quote from: 4949shooter on December 01 2013 08:27:01 AM MST
Quote from: Intercooler on December 01 2013 08:24:31 AM MST
The 150gr Cor-Bon has been gel tested already. I sent the 155gr Federal listed in the data to Chopinbloc already for testing. It will be interesting to see!
If you read Evan's book, the 150 grain Corbon had a dismal failure to stop. The shooter gave up his 10mm and procured a revolver in .44 mag because of it. I know 10 shootings is not a good sample, but the incident sticks out in my mind, and I would not carry the Corbon 150 because of it.
That one failure to stop had horrific results. That's why I like Evan's books so much. I still have the original, but the other two have been on permanent loan for a while. :( All of his research taught him to find a load that he liked and shoot to lockback if the occasion presented itself, because handguns are no bueno.
Our coveted caliber doesn't have a extended track record because LEO's are not using it anymore...However looking at the 40 Short and Weak shows some interestings data where speed is working for the lighter bullets. We all know that we are driving the 10mm over those speeds and the Short and Weak lacks in that performance with the heavier weights. Bullet construction and impact velocities are what allow them to work as designed in the intended medium...
Three things are what make for a one stop shot;
1) Bullet placement is by far the most crucial.
2) Bullet placement is by far the most crucial.
3) Bullet placement is by far the most crucial.
The deer I shot with a 200gr XTP at 130 yards, was a on shot stop. Stating velocity was 2000 fps from a Winchester APEX 29" BBL muzzleloader in a sabot, impact velocity was estimated at 1300 fps.
Not to get too far off the track...Handloads.com http://www.handloads.com/ (http://www.handloads.com/) has been one of my main hangouts for many years. I have like here made many acquaintances, and friends over the years. What is sad is when members pass away, leaving a void in your life as though you have lost a loved one! :'(
Quote from: enidpd804 on December 01 2013 08:45:56 AM MST
Quote from: 4949shooter on December 01 2013 08:27:01 AM MST
Quote from: Intercooler on December 01 2013 08:24:31 AM MST
The 150gr Cor-Bon has been gel tested already. I sent the 155gr Federal listed in the data to Chopinbloc already for testing. It will be interesting to see!
If you read Evan's book, the 150 grain Corbon had a dismal failure to stop. The shooter gave up his 10mm and procured a revolver in .44 mag because of it. I know 10 shootings is not a good sample, but the incident sticks out in my mind, and I would not carry the Corbon 150 because of it.
That one failure to stop had horrific results. That's why I like Evan's books so much. I still have the original, but the other two have been on permanent loan for a while. :( All of his research taught him to find a load that he liked and shoot to lockback if the occasion presented itself, because handguns are no bueno.
Most definitely. I try not to loan books out anymore just for that reason. I have a few put there I am waiting to come back. It's been how many years now?
Quote from: Intercooler on December 01 2013 08:32:36 AM MST
I'm sure today's new bullets have helped those 10mm percentages greatly. If someone would offer or do development on the 10mm like 9mm has it would really prosper. We will never know for sure about the new offerings because it isn't used for law enforcement. I really like the way those Underwood 155 GD's looked like huge Spiders :o
Which makes it a shame we don't have a data base to go on. I think as Shadow mentioned, we can look at the existing .40 S&W loads, and knowing we are driving our bullets faster we can extrapolate somewhat. That's why I mentioned the .40 loads in 165 grain are doing well. We are pushing them faster which promises impressive results. Our friend and brother Keith Jones once referred to the .40 S&W 165 grain Gold Dots (the hot load of the two they offer) as a "bad ass bullets." Imagine the effect those boys at 1300 to 1400 will have.
Great thread Intercooler!
I think Pittsburgh P.D. is getting away from the .40 and Sioux Falls as well. Pittsburgh to .45 and Sioux Falls to 9mm. Believe it or not, Sioux Falls are claiming recoil ???
The problem is that the bullets designed for the 40 sick and weak are designed to operate at lower velocities and not the velocities we get out of our 10's. Some of the older style 40 cal bullets with the thicker jackets may in fact work better at the velocities we use. Until we have valid tests done on all the currently available 40 bullets we are only hoping the ones out there will do what we want them to when we need them to. It seems that the cast bullet guys are experimenting much more than the jacketed producers are. Lets face it, our beloved 10mm is never going to be a "every persons" cartridge.
Dennis
Quote from: denclaste on December 02 2013 06:44:36 PM MST
The problem is that the bullets designed for the 40 sick and weak are designed to operate at lower velocities and not the velocities we get out of our 10's. Some of the older style 40 cal bullets with the thicker jackets may in fact work better at the velocities we use. Until we have valid tests done on all the currently available 40 bullets we are only hoping the ones out there will do what we want them to when we need them to. It seems that the cast bullet guys are experimenting much more than the jacketed producers are. Lets face it, our beloved 10mm is never going to be a "every persons" cartridge.
Dennis
True. The Gold Dot most likely would be better backed off a bit in velocity. Just a bit...
Luckily we still have the XTP. It is unfortunate that Hornady doesn't make it in a 170 grain version.
This is why I cast my own. I can vary the lead alloy to get the penetration and expansion i want at a desired velocity.
Bump
Does the one stop = death? Or stopping the individual by death and/or incapacitate?
Must have some bad 44 magnum shooters.
An interesting study on the subject.
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/handgun-stopping-power
Greg
I have to question Marshall & Sanow's research. For example, how is he obtaining average penetration? They are listing average penetration of a fmj 380acp at 10.9". Only 1.8" more than a 380acp load that achieves an expanded diameter of .58"? In every gel test I've seen with fmj 380 it is penetrating only slightly less than a 9mm or 45. Then they are showing 45acp fmj results some of which, depending on the manufacturer, are penetrating more than 20". That is average, not an extreme. So, how are they finding 215 shootings with Federal 230gr fmj out of a barrel longer than 4" which achieves an average penetration of 20.4"? Seems like pretty big bodies to go thru more than 20" & not exit. A lot of very obese guys apparently were shot with 45acp fmj or multiple felons with the same bullet? Not likely!
"Diameter and Penetration are the average from bullets recovered in actual shootings. All data taken from Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow's book: Stopping Power: A Practical Analysis of the Latest Handgun Ammunition and used with permission from the author."
Maybe one of you who read the book can shed more light on this, but I am skeptical about some of their statistics as was Dr. Martin Fackler among others.
The one shot stop :-\ - if you're only shooting once in a defensive situation, yer' doing it wrong.
Quote from: The_Shadow on December 01 2013 09:29:02 AM MST
Three things are what make for a one stop shot;
1) Bullet placement is by far the most crucial.
2) Bullet placement is by far the most crucial.
3) Bullet placement is by far the most crucial.
It is but typically can't be counted on (
precise bullet placement, that is), so total shots on/hitting target come in at a very close second.
Quote from: The_Shadow on December 01 2013 09:29:02 AM MST
The deer I shot with a 200gr XTP at 130 yards, was a on shot stop. Stating velocity was 2000 fps from a Winchester APEX 29" BBL muzzleloader in a sabot, impact velocity was estimated at 1300 fps.
I get what your saying, but I don't typically use hunting as an example in this situation (discussing the mythical One Stop Shot).
Shot placement, caliber, bullet selection, total shots on target, etc..... lots of variables in the defensive world. Bad guys don't just stand there and let you shoot them in the side of the head.
Quote from: Rich10 on January 23 2014 09:58:49 AM MST
The one shot stop :-\ - if you're only shooting once in a defensive situation, yer' doing it wrong.
Quote from: The_Shadow on December 01 2013 09:29:02 AM MST
Three things are what make for a one stop shot;
1) Bullet placement is by far the most crucial.
2) Bullet placement is by far the most crucial.
3) Bullet placement is by far the most crucial.
It is but typically can't be counted on (precise bullet placement, that is), so total shots on/hitting target come in at a very close second.
Quote from: The_Shadow on December 01 2013 09:29:02 AM MST
The deer I shot with a 200gr XTP at 130 yards, was a on shot stop. Stating velocity was 2000 fps from a Winchester APEX 29" BBL muzzleloader in a sabot, impact velocity was estimated at 1300 fps.
I get what your saying, but I don't typically use hunting as an example in this situation (discussing the mythical One Stop Shot).
Shot placement, caliber, bullet selection, total shots on target, etc..... lots of variables in the defensive world. Bad guys don't just stand there and let you shoot them in the side of the head.
So now you must rely strictly on the ballistic performance of the cartridge you so choose! Bringing enough of a balance, of accuracy & ballistic potential, to the intended target, to let the projectile of choice, do the work! Yes, everything is relative!
Quote from: DAVIDF on January 23 2014 09:25:33 AM MST
I have to question Marshall & Sanow's research. For example, how is he obtaining average penetration? They are listing average penetration of a fmj 380acp at 10.9". Only 1.8" more than a 380acp load that achieves an expanded diameter of .58"? In every gel test I've seen with fmj 380 it is penetrating only slightly less than a 9mm or 45. Then they are showing 45acp fmj results some of which, depending on the manufacturer, are penetrating more than 20". That is average, not an extreme. So, how are they finding 215 shootings with Federal 230gr fmj out of a barrel longer than 4" which achieves an average penetration of 20.4"? Seems like pretty big bodies to go thru more than 20" & not exit. A lot of very obese guys apparently were shot with 45acp fmj or multiple felons with the same bullet? Not likely!
"Diameter and Penetration are the average from bullets recovered in actual shootings. All data taken from Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow's book: Stopping Power: A Practical Analysis of the Latest Handgun Ammunition and used with permission from the author."
Maybe one of you who read the book can shed more light on this, but I am skeptical about some of their statistics as was Dr. Martin Fackler among others.
Whoever is quoting that information is mixing up data from the third book, I would guess. That book has a mixture of gel data and actual shooting results. I don't remember reading anything about depth of penetration in suspects. Evan gathered most of the data from shootings he encountered while a detective sergeant in Detroit. I have every confidence that the information as presented is true and accurate. I used to read Evan's stuff in the 80s and he wasn't a big 9mm fan. The data contradicted that, so he'd have to be lying to prove himself wrong. Most of the criticism I've seen of Marshall is that only shootings involving one torso hit were used and some other statistical stuff that's beyond me. :)
I just take the data as it was presented. It was gathered a long time ago and no data was collected past 2001, so there's nothing on DPX, HST, etc. I don't think it's the be-all, end-all and neither does Evan. I definitely think it's worth taking into consideration.
Quote from: krafcheck on January 22 2014 07:12:13 PM MST
Bump
Does the one stop = death? Or stopping the individual by death and/or incapacitate?
Must have some bad 44 magnum shooters.
Just incapacitation.
Quote from: enidpd804 on January 23 2014 12:16:05 PM MST
Quote from: DAVIDF on January 23 2014 09:25:33 AM MST
I have to question Marshall & Sanow's research. For example, how is he obtaining average penetration? They are listing average penetration of a fmj 380acp at 10.9". Only 1.8" more than a 380acp load that achieves an expanded diameter of .58"? In every gel test I've seen with fmj 380 it is penetrating only slightly less than a 9mm or 45. Then they are showing 45acp fmj results some of which, depending on the manufacturer, are penetrating more than 20". That is average, not an extreme. So, how are they finding 215 shootings with Federal 230gr fmj out of a barrel longer than 4" which achieves an average penetration of 20.4"? Seems like pretty big bodies to go thru more than 20" & not exit. A lot of very obese guys apparently were shot with 45acp fmj or multiple felons with the same bullet? Not likely!
"Diameter and Penetration are the average from bullets recovered in actual shootings. All data taken from Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow's book: Stopping Power: A Practical Analysis of the Latest Handgun Ammunition and used with permission from the author."
Maybe one of you who read the book can shed more light on this, but I am skeptical about some of their statistics as was Dr. Martin Fackler among others.
Whoever is quoting that information is mixing up data from the third book, I would guess. That book has a mixture of gel data and actual shooting results. I don't remember reading anything about depth of penetration in suspects. Evan gathered most of the data from shootings he encountered while a detective sergeant in Detroit. I have every confidence that the information as presented is true and accurate. I used to read Evan's stuff in the 80s and he wasn't a big 9mm fan. The data contradicted that, so he'd have to be lying to prove himself wrong. Most of the criticism I've seen of Marshall is that only shootings involving one torso hit were used and some other statistical stuff that's beyond me. :)
I just take the data as it was presented. It was gathered a long time ago and no data was collected past 2001, so there's nothing on DPX, HST, etc. I don't think it's the be-all, end-all and neither does Evan. I definitely think it's worth taking into consideration.
Absolutely. I agree 100%.
Quote from: enidpd804 on January 23 2014 12:16:05 PM MST
Quote from: DAVIDF on January 23 2014 09:25:33 AM MST
I have to question Marshall & Sanow's research. For example, how is he obtaining average penetration? They are listing average penetration of a fmj 380acp at 10.9". Only 1.8" more than a 380acp load that achieves an expanded diameter of .58"? In every gel test I've seen with fmj 380 it is penetrating only slightly less than a 9mm or 45. Then they are showing 45acp fmj results some of which, depending on the manufacturer, are penetrating more than 20". That is average, not an extreme. So, how are they finding 215 shootings with Federal 230gr fmj out of a barrel longer than 4" which achieves an average penetration of 20.4"? Seems like pretty big bodies to go thru more than 20" & not exit. A lot of very obese guys apparently were shot with 45acp fmj or multiple felons with the same bullet? Not likely!
"Diameter and Penetration are the average from bullets recovered in actual shootings. All data taken from Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow's book: Stopping Power: A Practical Analysis of the Latest Handgun Ammunition and used with permission from the author."
Maybe one of you who read the book can shed more light on this, but I am skeptical about some of their statistics as was Dr. Martin Fackler among others.
Whoever is quoting that information is mixing up data from the third book, I would guess. That book has a mixture of gel data and actual shooting results. I don't remember reading anything about depth of penetration in suspects. Evan gathered most of the data from shootings he encountered while a detective sergeant in Detroit. I have every confidence that the information as presented is true and accurate. I used to read Evan's stuff in the 80s and he wasn't a big 9mm fan. The data contradicted that, so he'd have to be lying to prove himself wrong. Most of the criticism I've seen of Marshall is that only shootings involving one torso hit were used and some other statistical stuff that's beyond me. :)
I just take the data as it was presented. It was gathered a long time ago and no data was collected past 2001, so there's nothing on DPX, HST, etc. I don't think it's the be-all, end-all and neither does Evan. I definitely think it's worth taking into consideration.
Thanks, that makes more sense. But if that is the case, I would question some of his gel testing as the 380acp fmj results compared with the expanding rounds aren't credible.
I read some of his stuff back in the 80's and/or 90's, but I have never read his books. I do remember some of the things he wrote about penetration with certain loads, but I don't remember his testing methodology for that particular part.
A lot of people have been very skeptical about his writings & at least one has claimed that it appears to be fabricated. Don't personally know!
Evan did most of the data compilation and Ed did most of the gel testing, IIRC. I 'net know Evan and know a few people who know him well. I've met Ed and also know some folks who know him well. Full disclosure: I write for one of the magazines that Ed publishes. They're both deeply religious fellows. I don't know much about statistics (or math of any kind :D), but I'm convinced these are honest folk. As far as the methodology? I dunno.
I've also never done gelatin testing, but I really want to. It seems like you have to be really careful with preparation and keeping a consistent temperature or you get wonky results. I wonder if 10% ballistic gelatin has come down in price any...It sounds like fun.
Warren,
Thanks for your insight. I don't know either of them nor any of their naysayers!
I would love to do gel testing as well. Don't have anywhere to do that however. I had plenty of space as a teeneager, but no gel. Used jugs of water to test hard cast lead loads.
May I inquire as to which magazine you write for?
I STILL shoot water jugs for giggles and then take the expanded bullets home. My kid thinks it's the coolest thing! I've got an expanded .44 magnum DPX that looks a ceiling fan. :))
Police Marksman. It was a very traditional magazine that ran from the 70s until 2007. Hendon Media Group revived it for 2013. It's free online and isn't just for cops, IMO. Anyone who likes guns can get something from it. Shameless self-promotion concluded. ;D
Thanks Warren,
I just looked up the magazine. I haven't been in law enforcement work more than 20 years now, but it will still be an interesting read. It was worth looking up the magazine just for the title of this article: FROM THE CONTROL BOOTH: Your Career Is Too Short To Carry An Ugly Holster I carry some ugly holsters like the Glock sport/combat, but I no longer have any of those really ugly nylon belt holsters.
I have some Barnes .44 magnum DPX loads for my Henry & Super Blackhawk. I'm not so sure about some of the DPX in lighter calibers, but that is a scary load in .44!
you said it right shadow any bullet in the right place