Purchased a decent lot of ammo recently and it showed up today. An older gentleman passed away and his friend purchased his ammo which contained 10mm. I bought those from him and they will for sure be used to learn and feed all my 10's 8) which I am sure is the way he would want it. Supposedly the original owner had the most expensive equipment and pistols money could buy. When checking out the WSF reloads I couldn't see any extractor marks or ejector marks, making me think he was using a revolver such as a 610.
(https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/1463960_622176561153713_973534414_n.jpg)
Older Cor-Bon 135gr JHP 1400 FPS rating box of 20. The new boxes are different.
(https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/936514_622176887820347_935638077_n.jpg)
Older Winchester 175gr Silvertips. Looks like from ~2001
(https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/1426344_622177437820292_345384480_n.jpg)
Old style Winchester Silvertip tray
(https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1457522_622177727820263_114905073_n.jpg)
The foam packaging really kept the brass nice. Most Winchester brass turns ugly quickly!
(https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1471269_622178077820228_1286033853_n.jpg)
Old Cor-Bon 135gr JHP rated 1450 FPS. That's odd and a box of 50 no less!
(https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/1451443_622178384486864_576991717_n.jpg)
Winchester Nickel plated 10mm brass. Pretty rare I think!
(https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1463153_622178487820187_1423275282_n.jpg)
Midway 10mm headstamped brass. Wonder if they still carry it?
(https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1468669_622178727820163_386267405_n.jpg)
They look like they have been stored well and in great shape...You done good! Congrats! 8)
I did real well! I pulled out a sampling of the reloads for verification but they all look good.
Wonder why Cor-Bon has one 135@1400 FPS and another at 1450 FPS? Is it worth Chronographing or pulling down the Silvertips?
Nice score!!
I feel like I stole it :-[ $110 for all that :)
I wouldn't post that, people will think less of you :o
Ooops!
The target rounds will come in real handy. I like paper punching with something a little more tame.
The Winchester SilverTips the powders will be unknown non-canister proprietary. ??? If we did a pull-down we will likely see what we already did, even though it may be a different charge weight.
CorBon, could have used slightly different recipes for the numbers shown... :-\ You could measure the Cartridge Overall Length to see if they used different seating depths.
The handloads could be anywhere from powder drop measure to Match Grade loads, depending on his equipment and attention to details. The data seemed to allow some room for fluctuations. ;)
I would safety check some of the ammo load wise. Then enjoy the blast fest!
But over all I don't see any real value in 10mm ammo lighter than 155gn. Yeah it goes fast! But my study has shown me a 125gn .357mag is far better than 135gn 10mm. Something about SD coming into to play. 8) 155gn and up bullets is where the .357mag falls off against 10mm regardless of barrel length.
Enjoy the ammo that may have come from a past master. It has all sorts of cool attached to it. :)
124 "granos" Lol..
I would be curious to see how that older silvertip charge compares to the modern Silvertip charges.
I bet Corbon lowered their 10mm velocity from 1450 to 1400 just like all the other ammo manufacturers.
I'm sending a sampling of the FMJ's to The Shadow for pull-downs. Based on what is there I plan to hand weigh every round placing a stamp of approval on every box before shooting. I might send one of the Silvertips down as well but just get it back instead of shooting.
Some ammo gives results we wouldn't expect! The little 100gr Pow'RBall 9mm round amazed me!
13.1" penetration with expansion of .587" and 99% retained weight ;D
Here is a twist. I think the new Cor-Bon 135's:
(https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash2/485027_467154776655893_972788546_n.jpg)
Are different than even the two old ones I am about to test Saturday :o
Quote from: 4949shooter on November 28 2013 04:27:45 AM MST
124 "granos" Lol..
I bet Corbon lowered their 10mm velocity from 1450 to 1400 just like all the other ammo manufacturers.
f
I read an article a few decades ago that SAAMI was lowering pressures on both the .357 and 10mm. The magnum 125 grain rounds went down to 1400 fps from 1450 and likewise the 10mm 135's.
A lot of what went on, was the change over to the piezoelectric transducer (PSI) from the copper crusher (C.U.P.) methods.
10mm was developed about that time frame of this transition when SAAMI established the 37,500 PSI MAP.
More info can be found here about the SAAMI MAP - http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo/10mm-ammo-history/ (http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo/10mm-ammo-history/)
Very nice Intercooler. :) will be patiently awaiting the pull downs from Shadow.
The 50 round box of 135's is dated Feb. 10, 1994. Almost 20 years old :o Possibly why the rating WAS 1450 FPS.
Anyone have a way to decipher the 20 round box lot number?
I want to research the Cor-Bon history as the 1994 box might have been the very first offering.
(https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1450837_622587564445946_1627861201_n.jpg)
What are you looking to find out?
Quote from: enidpd804 on November 28 2013 09:37:34 AM MST
Quote from: 4949shooter on November 28 2013 04:27:45 AM MST
124 "granos" Lol..
I bet Corbon lowered their 10mm velocity from 1450 to 1400 just like all the other ammo manufacturers.
f
I read an article a few decades ago that SAAMI was lowering pressures on both the .357 and 10mm. The magnum 125 grain rounds went down to 1400 fps from 1450 and likewise the 10mm 135's.
That makes sense. I wonder why..
What date the smaller box was manufactured. I suspect being a 20 box that puts it between the new and real old.
I'm running the Crossfire 125's out of the Hunter tomorrow as well. Maybe 1800 FPS?
Quote from: 4949shooter on November 28 2013 06:54:06 PM MST
Quote from: enidpd804 on November 28 2013 09:37:34 AM MST
Quote from: 4949shooter on November 28 2013 04:27:45 AM MST
124 "granos" Lol..
I bet Corbon lowered their 10mm velocity from 1450 to 1400 just like all the other ammo manufacturers.
f
I read an article a few decades ago that SAAMI was lowering pressures on both the .357 and 10mm. The magnum 125 grain rounds went down to 1400 fps from 1450 and likewise the 10mm 135's.
That makes sense. I wonder why..
Funhaters. :D
Quote from: Intercooler on November 28 2013 07:13:49 PM MST
What date the smaller box was manufactured. I suspect being a 20 box that puts it between the new and real old.
I will see what we can find out.
Edit: The site is down now but I will post the lot number later.
Interesting 10mm results today. I'm really interested in seeing what The Shadow finds when he pulls down these two Cor-Bon 135's versus the newer version. The recoil difference between the 1400 FPS rated versus the 1450 FPS rated confirmed the Chronograph readings.
EAA Elite Limited 4.75" Cor-Bon 135gr JHP 1400 FPS rating 1469, 1476, 1467. Average = 1470.66 FPS/ 648 LBS
EAA Elite Limited 4.75" Cor-Bon 135gr JHP 1450 FPS rating 1527, 1475, 1475, 1511, 1505, 1493. Average = 1497.66 FPS/ 672 LBS. The > 1500 readings I could feel the difference in the string. Perhaps there was a loading issue back then (1994) with this load?
I also ran some previously tested10mm rounds out of my 6" Hunter for those data points.
EAA Hunter 6" Underwood Ammo 220gr Hardcast 1288, 1286. Average 1287 FPS/ 809 LBS
EAA Hunter 6" Crossfire Ammo 125gr Sinterfire Frangible 1787, 1767. Average = 1777 FPS/ 877 LBS falling a little short of the 1800 FPS I hoped to see. The powder he uses make this a quieter and more pleasant recoiling round than other 800+LB loads. It always amazes me!
EAA Hunter 6" Underwood Ammo 180gr TMJ 1373, 1374, 1387. Average = 1378 FPS/ 759 LBS
Very interesting...what about the handloaded stuff? ??? You test any of those?
Not yet. I will wait until you pull them and verify the weights. Based off of that I will weigh each one just to make sure before shooting.
Sent Cor-Bon photos.
Here is what was found inside the Handloaded Cartridges Intercooler scored...he sent 5 for investigation.
Cartridge is from Reloaded: 180 grain FMJ
Ballistics Information: 10mm Auto
Muzzle Velocity: 1170 -1180 fps
Muzzle Energy: 556 ft. lbs
Brass Make/Headstamp: Midway & Winchester – Brass
Bullet Make/Weight/Construction/Info; Length 0.6090"/Dia. 0.4000": 180gr FMJ
Actual weight 178.2 / 178.4 / 181.8 / 182.0 / 177.6 grains
Crimp Diameter 0.3860" - 0.3840" (looks to have a crimp groove as made or just way over crimped)
Truncated Cone / Meplat 0.2250" / Base is copper covered
C.O.A.L.: 1.2615" / 1.2670" / 1.2645" / 1.2640" / 1.2685"
Primer: Nickel color
Case: Diameter 0.4270" / 0.4275" / 0.4230" / 0.4270" / 0.4300" (they were not "pass-thru" sized and the sizing die did not reach the area above the extractor ring. 4 of the 5 didn't fit the case gauge as seen by the measurements)
Crimp Diameter 0.4135" / 0.4120" / 0.4120" / 0.4120" / 0.4120" (tight) (bullets look to have a crimp groove but some are crimped way too much)(should be 0.4215" but the crimp groove is why I think they were crimped so much)
Length 0.9795" - 0.9880" (used cases lengths varied)
Powder Description/Positive ID/Type/Charge Weight: Winchester WSF 7.3 grains
Actual weight 7.0 / 7.2 / 7.4 / 7.4 / 7.2 (Hodgdon shows 180 JHC using 7.1 gr. @ 1150 fps 35,600 PSI)
(http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/IMG_0434_zps66e26d50.jpg)
(http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/IMG_0435_zps7bd41d75.jpg)
(http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/IMG_0436_zps17568b2e.jpg)
(http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/IMG_0437_zps9006f540.jpg)
The inside of the case and the base of the bullet looked like the yellow dust we are seeing. (I think the casing was wet or had corrosion residue inside, it is on the bullet base also.)
(http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/IMG_0438_zps9de95699.jpg)
I'm not sure if the bullets were made with this crimp groove? ???
(http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/IMG_0439_zps38d871c6.jpg)
Weird how something unexpected shows something we have seen in the past!
The yellow "dust" we saw in some of the others more than likely is moisture related?
The Shadow,
Now that we are barking up the right tree... let's test it! Can you take one of the good powder reloads and introduce a couple drops of water? Assemble and give a couple shakes? In a month or so pull it down for inspection?
Did you want to try that experiment?
I took an average today ~265gr's. The window I established (although wide) is 257-273. Headed out now to see how they shoot.
Yea it is hard to tell by weighing total cartridges...loads only varied from 7.0 -7.4 typical of powder dropped charges.
Where as the total cartridge weights vary even more than the total charge weights by 16 grains.
Bullets can vary as much if not more than 5 grains plus to even more depending on construction.
Cases can vary about 5 grains from the same make to even more if different makes and head stamps.
The Hodgdon book shows a Sierra 180 JHC with 7.1 as 1150 fps at 35,600 psi
Speer 12 shows their 180 grain TMJ & GD with 7.5 as 1120 fps
Lyman Shows 175 gr SilverTip using 7.2 as 1129 fps
If the guy didn't make any stupid mistakes you should be fine.
I'm back and all is well. Took two boxes of 40 rounds and shot both :o As a precaution I used my Glock approved gloves on the reloads ;D Not a single malfunction, etc... using the Pro and 1006 platforms.
EAA Limited Pro 4.75" 1100, 1113, 1120, 1127, 1133, 1117, 1107, 1114, 1103. Average = 1114.8 FPS/ 497 LBS Not bad for punching paper.
S&W 1006 5" 1058, 1056, 1063, 1065, 1057, 1077, 1089. Average = 1066.42 FPS/ 455 LBS I can never understand why a 1/4" longer barrel gives less velocity.
So it looks like I have plenty of target ammo for a while.
Seems they did OK! The S&W barrel must be a different fit with the conventional rifling! Number of lands & grooves? ???
If you find any that give you issues for chambering, sent it for investigation! ::)
When I don't shoot the 1006 for a while, the first couple shots make me realize how much I hate the trigger! :(
Those EAA's spoiled you! ::)
Yea S&W could have done a better job with the triggers, :-[ if they would have they would still be in high demand.
I forgot to mention every primer was flattened like a pancake :o None of the brass showed signs of pressure at all. This makes me wonder if that tight crimp pushes pressure back on the primer? That would be another interesting test with the reloads making a couple loose on the crimp.
Even though the velocity is not that high the pressures may be up there. Yes the tighter crimps can affect the primers also.
Combination of the two, faster powder and tighter crimp...Don't know what primers were used? Maybe Standard or Magnum, if magnum? That would bring pressures up some more.
Quote from: Intercooler on December 07 2013 09:39:35 AM MST
I can never understand why a 1/4" longer barrel gives less velocity.
Its likly the chamber is tighter in the EAA than the S&W. A looser chamber is extra volume for the gasses to expand into, and that lowers chamber pressure.
Greg
Geeman maybe you could run the numbers in QuickLoads for these for Intercooler.
180 grain FMJ (Bullet Make/Weight/Construction/Info; Length 0.6090"/Dia. 0.4000") Crimp Diameter 0.3860" - 0.3840"
Cases were mixed (Winchester and Midway) seating depth was C.O.A.L.: 1.2615" / 1.2670" / 1.2645" / 1.2640" / 1.2685"
Winchester WSF 7.3 grains,
Actual weights on the 5 I took apart 7.0 / 7.2 / 7.4 / 7.4 / 7.2
Velocity at 1120 fps
At 7.1 Hodgdon says 35,600 psi for a 180gr JHC
I have a feeling this powder is topping out very fast, not yielding velocity for the given pressures. Very Short duration peak.
Sorry,
That powder is MIA in quickload >:(.
Greg
Oh well we have a saying for that down here in Louisiana! cest la vie = "Such is life" 8)
Fired one more box of 40 today and had one dud. I tried multiple times but the primer just wouldn't set it off!
EAA Pro 4.75" 1150, 1139, 1100, 1137. Average = 1131.5 FPS/ 512 LBS
In the fudge factor from the last time out.
The things that come to mind are spent primer was either missed or put back into the casing. Contaminated primer (given the yellowish powder seen it could be related to moisture in the casing and it killed the primer) or bad primer are also likely! Stuff does happen...be glad to take it apart for a look see! ;)
Will do.
Did you set one of the reloads up with a couple of drops of water to see if we can produce yellow dust?
No I haven't experimented with that, but may try to see if the moisture with the powders will form nitric acids as a reaction inside the brass casing...
Quote from: Intercooler on December 14 2013 11:11:33 AM MST
Fired one more box of 40 today and had one dud. I tried multiple times but the primer just wouldn't set it off!
EAA Pro 4.75" 1150, 1139, 1100, 1137. Average = 1131.5 FPS/ 512 LBS
In the fudge factor from the last time out.
Here is a picture of the primers as pulled, powder was fine the primers were not spent or previously shot as evident of the clean shiny anvils. You can see the primer mixture is gone mostly, so none was under the anvil when struck.
(http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/IMG_0496_zps6b80eb73.jpg)
Gotta love the price tags on the original boxes ... ;)
I tested my old box of Winchester Silvertips today in both lengths.
EAA Limited 4.75" 1267, 1271. Average = 1269 FPS/ 626 LBS. The data I have in the sheet for the new stuff is 1210 FPS with 8.4gr's of Ramshot?? I need to send The Shadow one for pull-down to see what's in there. Did we do a pull-down of a new Silvertip? Did they load the old stuff better?
EAA Hunter 6" 1331, 1366. Average = 1348.5 FPS/ 707 LBS.
This is kind of what I expect out of the Silvertips. I think I will put this data on the "discontinued" tab as "old".
Hunter data for the old Cor-Bons.
135gr (Old) 1400 FPS Adv EAA Hunter 6" 1557, 1520. Average = 1538.5 FPS/ 710 LBS
135gr (Old) 1450 FPS Adv EAA Hunter 6" 1587, 1585. Average = 1586 FPS/ 754 LBS
I shot the old Silvertip The Shadow returned from the pull-down. The velocity dropped a little from the process, but nothing like the new garbage they offer today!
EAA Hunter 6" 1309 FPS/ 666 LBS. A new round gave 1349 FPS/ 707 LBS when initially tested.