10mm-Auto

It occurs to me that maybe I should post the gelatin test results that I've done for other calibers. Big thanks to Intercooler as he provided the ammunition for most of the tests that I've done. Hope you enjoy.

Can't wait to see what 1400 FPS looks like. Not bad!

This one goes DEEP!

That Extreme shock in 45 is no joke. I know many people don't take that ammo seriously but it sure looked good in the gel.

I disagree. I know it's hard to tell in the pictures but all that really happened was that it created a very large, shallow wound and the portions that made it deeper were very low mass. It might look bad but I wouldn't put my faith in it. It's not enough that a bullet technically pass the 12" mark. It needs to do so with enough mass and diameter to poke big holes in vital organs. Gold Dot or HST is the way to go, IMHO.


(http://imageshack.com/a/img38/7834/m1d.JPG)


(http://imageshack.com/a/img197/3761/50t6.JPG)


(http://imageshack.com/a/img809/1149/01l4.jpg)

Gotcha. That piece that penetrated does look insignificant from the pictures.

Thanks for the testing, The HST bullets are bad to the bone...

Beat me to it.

40 S&W 180 gr Speer Gold Dot loaded over 9.2 gr of AA#7 fired from a Kel-Tec Sub 2000 carbine and Glock model 22 pistol through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB: 593.6 fps, 3.4"

Pistol data:

Impact velocity: 1,081 fps
Penetration: 14.5"
Retained weight: 179.7 gr
Max expansion: 0.741"
Min expansion: 0.492"

Carbine data:

Impact velocity: 1,320 fps (approx.)
Penetration: 16.6"
Retained weight: 178.9 gr
Max expansion: 0.781"
Min expansion: 0.538"


A few notes: The chronograph did not catch the impact velocity from the carbine shot so I took a four shot average. Velocities were:

1,312 fps
1,317 fps
1,327 fps
1,324 fps

I was surprised at how much velocity the bullet gained from the longer barrel and I was surprised to note that the faster bullet actually went deeper. I had to double check. The only explanation I can come up with is that the extra velocity pushed the petals back against the shank earlier.

Speer lists the factory velocity as 1,025 from a pistol so I believe that I got fairly close to what they put out but I do not know what powder they use so the burn rate could be substantially different. I did not have any extra factory ammo available for testing.

  Extra 180gr Gold Dots? Let me look and see if I have something to send.

Crossfire 140gr Black Max. It uses an all copper General bullet which... looks like it doesn't hold together too well at those speeds  :o

Quote from: Intercooler on February 26 2014 03:03:29 PM MST
  Extra 180gr Gold Dots? Let me look and see if I have something to send.

I have them as components and I have enough factory ammo to fill a couple mags for my carry guns. I just didn't want to take any from my carry ammo.

TN did it and is back.

Quote from: Intercooler on April 21 2014 05:01:01 PM MDT
TN did it and is back.

;D WAHOO; welcome back to TNOUTDOORS9!!! 

Still think it's probably a variant of Ranger T.  Results with denim promising but 7" in bare gelatin.. :o
Think there are better alternatives available. 

ShootingTheBull410 is doing the best gel test out there right now currently. The amount of shots, etc.... Hands down the man right now!

Quote from: Intercooler on April 21 2014 06:03:33 PM MDT
ShootingTheBull410 is doing the best gel test out there right now currently. The amount of shots, etc.... Hands down the man right now!

No doubt, he is doing a really, really good job.  I particularly appreciate his work with ammo by various well regarded manufactures fired from short barreled pistols (very popular right now).  The short barrels often yield very different results than full size barrels and the right choice in ammo is more important then ever if utilizing short barrel for self defense. 
However, would hope his interest in 380 ballistic gel tests diminishes sometime soon :P...

Mrgunsandgear focusing on gear a lot recently but his ammo tests have been quite informative too (and like TNoutdoors9 he is a 10mm fan).

  Yea. A true 10mm tester is hard to come by! I have thought about buying my own Clear Gel block, mold and roaster to do them. It's a $400 investment  :o

   I think this might be the first time I can remember TN doing no Denim. Maybe he is watching 410's tests?

Doubletap 125gr Barnes TAC-XP. She's a little low compared to the flap  :-X

Yea, under 1500 fps, so the 1600 fps was not seen...Nice Gel test though.  8)

Quote from: Intercooler on April 21 2014 07:51:12 PM MDT
  Yea. A true 10mm tester is hard to come by! I have thought about buying my own Clear Gel block, mold and roaster to do them. It's a $400 investment  :o

   I think this might be the first time I can remember TN doing no Denim. Maybe he is watching 410's tests?

If you decide to conduct your own gel tests, please consider using real gelatin if you have the refrigerator space. While the Clear Ballistics product looks cool and is generally consistent with real gelatin, it is not the standard and it appears that higher velocities produce results that are less consistent with real gelatin. Real gelatin also costs less initially. You can reuse the clear gel more times than gelatin, but with proper care, you can make the gelatin last through quite a few uses, too.

If you decide to do gelatin tests, hit me up so I can run you through all my current procedures and the little tricks that I've learned. In any case, it would be great to have another (terminal) ballistic tester out there and either type of gel would be a great addition to the outstanding exterior ballistic data you post. Be well.

I am seriously looking for a prograde 140 barnes gel test. Brass catcher posted a seriously disappointing 155gr barnes corbon test, it shed 2 or 3 petals but it did penetrate pretty good.  He tests in 20% gel.

Beat me to it again, Intercooler. Thanks. Here's the other test from yesterday:




Mag360, I think Intercooler sent me a few Barnes loads. That might be one of them. Theoretically, Brassfetcher's 20% results should translate to 10% results by multiplying the penetration distance by two. I don't know why he still does 20%, though. Maybe because he gets better high speed footage with a shorter distance and he can zoom in closer. Those videos are a lot of fun to watch.

That one packed a wallop!  You knocked your block off!   ;D

 Should be about every Barnes 10mm made there, including the 125gr and 140gr.

   When you do 9mm again can you run the Nosler and Montana Golds? Nobody has done Gel on those two to date.

.22 TCM

Cool. Thanks for posting that. I actually have a box of that stuff that my mom bought accidentally (she thought it was .22lr) but I don't have a .22 TCM barrel. I've asked on the local forums if anyone had a gun in .22 TCM to use for a test but never heard anything. I'm not certain that clear gel is entirely accurate at that velocity, but the results are pretty surprising. I really expected a lot less penetration.

Hey, just wondering of you'll ever test a .45ACP Gold Dot at some point?  Actually would be cool to test a normal loading and a +P loading to see the difference, and compare to how that stacks up against 10mm.

I try to focus on loads that are not already well documented. I've done a couple well known loads to verify that my results are consistent with professional results. Other than that, I don't see any real need to add to the mountains of tests done on common duty pistol loadings, etc. I started doing the tests in the first place because my wife bought me a Witness in 10mm and there was very little test data available.

ATK (the group that owns Speer and Federal) publishes gelatin test results for their factory loads in the service calibers featuring Gold Dot and HST projectiles. You can check multiple boxes to compare several loads. It could be argued that their results are biased because they are published by the manufacturer but they are generally consistent with other professional tests, my own tests, and other amateur tests. The results are clearly rounded to nice, even numbers but it's also important to remember that if you fire five rounds into gelatin, the results will often vary by an inch or so, anyway. Because they give averaged results for a statistically relevant sample size and include results through a variety of materials, their numbers are MUCH more useful than my own would be, anyway.

http://le.atk.com/wound_ballistics/load_comparison/load_comparison.aspx (http://le.atk.com/wound_ballistics/load_comparison/load_comparison.aspx)

If you still want to watch gel bounce around, there are lots of informal tests on YouTube using various materials:

Those Gold Dots are great performers in the 45ACP... :-[  But just like the 10mm they have a good expansion and penetration profile.  ;D

I have 400 of the 45 cal 230 grain Gold Dots that I'm waiting to load up, these will be for a +P loading.
I have been studying several options in the loading data, but may actually use the Power Pistol loading data I have;
Power Pistol 7.5 grains @ 950 fps CCI300 COAL is 1.2000" = 23,058 PSI @ 975 fps

One thing I'm waiting for, is New Starline 45ACP Brass rated for +P and headstamped as such, so when they make a run, hopefully I can get in on the purchase of some to do this project.

Several 45ACP 230gr Speer JHP (850-890 fps) tests in different media are available but I too would really like to see a 230gr Speer JHP +P (950-990 fps) test.

200gr 45ACP Gold Dot +P are also numerous but I've never found a published test of 230gr +P Gold Dot .

Click the ATK link. The data is there.

.357 mag Remington 180 gr SJHP video link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzrxHjX7eWo&feature=youtu.be)





.357 mag Remington 180 gr SJHP fired from S&W Model 13 4" revolver and from Rossi M92 16" carbine through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB: 597.8 fps, 3.2"

Revolver data

Impact velocity: 1,193 fps
Pentration: 17.8"
Retained weight: 181.7 gr
Max expansion: 0.557"
Min expansion: 0.534"

Carbine data

Impact velocity: 1,563 fps
Penetration: 18.1"
Retained weight: 151.3 gr
Max expansion: 0.600"
Min Expansion: 0.587"

Very Nice thanks for the test results!  8)

Nice. Thanks for posting that. I'm surprised it did as well as it did. He alludes to a test where he got poor performance from .38 spl 135 gr Gold Dot. I did too so I'm interested to see that test if he publishes it.

We have had a couple light for caliber shockers as well.

Thanks for posting, Intercooler. Here's the embed:




Interesting results. I was under the impression that 115 gr 9mm never met the 12" standard.

BP version. I think Raggedyman possibly ran a couple I sent him as well.

How can I send you guys some 10 ammo to test ?  I have Swamp Fox 180 gr Gold Dots 175 gr Silver Tips and 200 gr xtp's.
Underwood 180gr  DE load in Gold Dots and Noslers.

Look through this thread:

http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-10mm-ammo/10mm-gel-tests/

Pretty sure you will find results for the loads you list there.

Yup.

Raggedyman also has a huge backlog of 10mm there to test in all flavors as well.

sqlbullet and Intercooler are both correct. That said, if you have something different that hasn't been tested, post it and if the other guys are really interested, I might be able to move it up. I'm not trying to blow you off at all but through Intercooler's, Shadow's and other members' generosity, I have A LOT of loads to test. The vast majority of the loads that I have tested were provided by Intercooler so be sure to thank him for his substantial contribution. Then there is all the work he's done on velocity testing and putting together the 10mm master sheet (below). We are at a point now where it's getting pretty easy to predict what a given bullet weight is likely to do at a given velocity and I think that's pretty cool.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?hl=en&hl=en&key=0Ak5OC6bPsjO8dEh6eGZ3N3hpUU13SXM5cm9pZy16T0E&type=view&gid=0&f=true&sortcolid=8&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=250 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/lv?hl=en&hl=en&key=0Ak5OC6bPsjO8dEh6eGZ3N3hpUU13SXM5cm9pZy16T0E&type=view&gid=0&f=true&sortcolid=8&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=250)

Yea many sell the 38Spl short on its performance, was surprised the bullet didn't expand, possibly plugged HP?

Thanks again for great work!  The new gel looks great too. :D

Absolutely agree but .38 spl is border line in its ability to expand when a short barrel through heavy clothing. The same could certainly be true of other pistol cartridges.

I see a little denim circle at the front of many bullets recovered from gel if they don't turn and travel sideways. All JHP handgun ammo is clogged by denim but good designs at adequate velocity expand despite clothing. High velocity (ahem, 10mm) seems make up for poor design to some extent and allow a bullet to expand anyway.

Have you had a chance to test the Hornady XTP against the HAP ? I am wondering if there is a penetration difference since the HAP doesn't have any of the skiving or wrinkles to help the expansion. I ran through your listings on the cheat sheet by Intercooler, but I only saw listings for the XTP

Yup. It's on my channel.


http://youtube.com/user/chopinbloc (http://youtube.com/user/chopinbloc)

Sorry, just not finding the test for the Hornady Action Pistol (HAP) component.

I'm sorry. I food test our but I did not post a video. I think because my camera failed. I have some pics and test data inn my pc at home. Short story is that it did not expand. I Mau have posted the results in one of the other gel test threads. I'll try to remember to look up the pics and data when I get home.

Thanks, I was starting to wonder if it would be a good CXP2 game bullet.

     My Average was 1192 FPS out of my 4.75" Limited barrel versus his 1222 FPS average. I'm a little short of his results in a longer barrel. Given some of the XD numbers I have gotten while testing, I guess pistols act different all depending...
   

       I need to see if I still have this one and can get the XD numbers for it!

Sweet  video Raggedyman! I love AK gel tests and there is not enough! Any chance you could test some Federal Fusion for AK?  :D

EDIT: I'll send you a box if need be. I've shot some into wet phone books from about 15 feet and they had almost 100% weight retention and expanded perfectly to about .7 inches. They penetrated about 14 inches. I would love to see a real gel test of this stuff....nobody ever tests it.  :(

I'd love to try it, do long as you understand that it may take me a long time to get to it. I PM'd you my address.

Thanks for sharing the 7.62x39 PDX1 test Raggedyman. 
Wound track was pretty decent, but a little disappointed with over penetration depth from the 16.25" barrel.  Winchester's whole "split core technology" was supposed to provide devastating energy dump THEN meet FBI penetration specs: 12" - 18".  An actual round capable of doing that from rifle (5.56, 7.62x39, 308) would be incredible in urban personal defense situation....  But that's what Winchester claims to have in this product. 
Ammo makers never embellish right? :P

Course I've bought several boxes of PDX1 in three rifle calibers listed; guess I'll keep it handy till something better comes along. 

Take a look at my 123 gr SST test. I believe that is much better performance. Russian soft point also seems to do well in other people's tests.

SST (zmax) in 7.62x39 is a bit puzzling to me.  I'm definitely aware of your test which showed 16.7" penetration and it's similarity to Hornady's performance claim, so I got some it too. 
However, I've seen a couple of tests showing 25" to 29" with it too...  Maybe it's another ballistic gel/clear gel thing.  For hunting game (deer & hogs) SST (243, 308) has been one of most effective and favorite bullets I use.  Often times hits em like lighting bolt.

Similar concern with Russian soft point in 7.62x39:  Some tests show good results, some tests show the Ruski SP mimic fmj. 

I do have some 7.62x39 Yugo fmj in my SHTF stash but even that a bit too hairy for usual home defense scenarios in my opinion.

Thx again for sharing your ballistic gel results.

I believe that there is a potential that the discrepancy between clear gel and gelatin influenced the difference between the Mrgunsngear and GY6vids tests versus my own test, but there was also a substantial difference in retained weight so it could simply be that the SST isn't all that consistent. It really requires more testing. It's also possible that the SST that Hornady uses in the Zmax line varies in some small way from that offered as a component.

I would expect pretty much any Russian ammo to be inconsistent. They don't even use the same projectile all the time. I will be testing Sellier&Bellot 123 gr SP soon. Maybe that will be a little better made.

I've got a couple cases of M67 myself. I think that's probably the best answer for SHTF, if you can't get some ammo that is verified to have the 8M3 or 8HP projectile.

Have you done any of the Lehigh Defense Ammo (http://"http://www.lehighdefense.com/index.php/shop/ammunition/xtreme-penetrator")?

That was why I asked if Raggadyman had done any. I will post good news for 10mm guys in the reloading forum.

I don't think I have but I'm starting to lose track.

ETA: sorry, I was on my phone earlier. I checked and I don't have a test up for Lehigh but it sounds familiar so maybe Intercooler or Shadow sent some?

Pretty interesting results. Does speed kill?

I would say that dramatic deceleration can contribute to wounding but if I have the choice between an ugly superficial wound and an unimpressive but deep wound, I'll take the one that goes deep enough to hit vital orgasms every time.

Quote from: Raggedyman on October 05 2014 09:46:26 AM MDT
I'll take the one that goes deep enough to hit vital orgasms every time.

.  :o

"That's what she said!"   :))

Quote from: Raggedyman on October 04 2014 11:36:34 PM MDT
American Eagle 50gr JHP

In addition to its role as a modern day handy, dandy Gallagher sledge-o-matic; it would make a very effective varmint round. :))

Nice. I hope he can still turn out a test every now and then.

Interesting to see this video today, last night while thumbing through a back issue of Shooting Times, one of the writers was discussing his time with Speer and how they had to change their loadings to meet the "Eurospec" guns that had been adopted by the US Law Enforcement. Up until that point, US Ammo manufacturers soft loaded the rounds. Not only on powder, but also in the dimensional sizing of the bullets themselves. American manufacturers where building to the small side of the SAAMI specs where as the Euro market was building to the Large size of the SAAMI specs, not just in the barrels with Groove diameter and chambers but also for the powder loadings. The US market ammo was so underloaded that the Eurospec firearms were having FTF/FTE issues. This would be about the time that the +P and +P+ craze was just starting in the US. I am thinking that what the US Ammo manufacturers were loading as +P were actually standard pressure loadings in Europe. Fast forward to today, almost 2 decades later and the Standard Loadings are only slightly slower than +P loadings, and proving quite effective.

Thanks for Loading the video Intercooler

We that was certainly a wild one with the can coming straight back to ya!   :o

Yeah, pretty surprising.  :o

Fun, though.

heh...Someone misunderstood the LeHigh Defense round "I am not sure what effect this would have on a person"

It is designed as a Hunting round. What we want for Hunting, is not always what we want for Personal Defense  :P

That 55gr psp Fiocci was actually pretty impressive.  I'd heard good things about it before and picked up some when I came across it couple of months ago. 

Raggedyman's test suggests it might very likely be a good self defense and light game hunting round.   

Any pistol tests on the slate?

Probably not until I get through some more rifle and shotgun tests. I've been putting these off for  a while and now I've got quite a few that I really want to do.

I like the Remington 12 buckshot, they load 12 pellets of #00 (most other manufactures only load 9 pellets of #00) and as you have shown Remington loads 27 of the #4 buck.

I have yet to chrono the handloaded 12 ga rounds I put together,  Using a RP12 wad I can stack 10 #00 (I could get a 12 pellet load of 00 buck, 3x3x3x3 if I cut the petals off of the wad's shotcup.) or the Duplex Load consisted of 16 pellets total, 8 of #00 & 8 of #4 Buckshot over my Blue Dot loads.

(http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/IMG_0901_zpse2b7a631.jpg)

(http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/IMG_0902_zpse564b37c.jpg)

(http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/IMG_0903_zpsae0629dc.jpg)

Pretty damn decent results.  Impressive wound track and excellent penetration depth.  Would make good personal defence and medium game hunting round IMHO. 

Really looking forward to your 123gr 7.62x39 S&B soft point test.

WOW! I would actually think about carrying that Extreme Shock Round!

Thanks for the Video!

No, thank you. I'll stick to Gold Dot or HST. Even if a bullet makes it to the 12" , it's not that useful if it is only the original size. I firmly believe that the best chance of stopping with a handgun bullet lies in rapid, wide expansion. Biggest diameter possible whill still reaching at least 12".

And of course, lots of holes in the right places. Thanks for posting, Intercooler.

handguns need weight retention, deep penetration AND expansion.  lack of those 3 automatically rules a round out.  Definitely stick to gold dot, HST, golden saber, pdx1, ranger, barnes xpb, certain XTP, and thats about it.

Outstanding!! :))

One test but results seem to indicate the Fusion 7.62x39 would be excellent hunting (up to medium game) or home defense round!

Read your recent article on AK-47 in home defense scenarios.  This round would definitely appear to be very good choice for that purpose. 

PS.
Keep em coming and THANK YOU for sharing your results!

And thank you for your support.

Quote from: Raggedyman on November 18 2014 06:03:38 PM MST
And thank you for your support.

Thanks for testing that man! ;D I love the performance it's everything I hoped for.

I just finished moving to Utah and haven't been able to say thanks until now.

That Ranger T is a badass, but I think 147 gr might be on the ragged edge of the low end of velocity for it. I sorely want some 165, 180, and 200 gr 0.400" Ranger T as componenets.

Nice. One test i would like to see is heavy garment test. Winter clothes of various sorts. I would be more than happy to supply ammo.

The FBI heavy clothing protocol is probably what you're looking for.

QuoteThe gelatin block is covered with four layers of clothing: one layer of cotton T-shirt material (48 threads per inch); one layer of cotton shirt material (80 threads per inch); a 10 ounce down comforter in a cambric shell cover (232 threads per inch); and one layer of 13 ounce cotton denim (50 threads per inch). This simulates typical cold weather wear. The block is shot at ten feet, measured from the muzzle to the front of the block.

This protocol is more complicated to set up and more expensive but the IWBA standard of four layers of denim is a more difficult test for projectiles to pass. Bullets that perform well through the four layers of denim also do well through the FBI heavy clothing standard but not always the other way around. For amateur testers like myself, the IWBA standard makes a lot of sense.

Thank You. When the 10 is carried, it's for the most part for me fall/winter time.

  I always like to compare Chronograph numbers. He saw 1047 FPS average out of a G17 4.5" barrel. I saw 1054 FPS out of the XD 4" and 1095 FPS out of the Limited 4.75". That's in the ballpark!

Quote from: Intercooler on December 14 2014 04:50:19 AM MST
  I always like to compare Chronograph numbers. He saw 1047 FPS average out of a G17 4.5" barrel. I saw 1054 FPS out of the XD 4" and 1095 FPS out of the Limited 4.75". That's in the ballpark!

Glad to see Pocket Guns and Gear ammunition test again; it's been couple months.

The 147gr +p HST is my personal choice CC during the winter months when I'm carrying 9mm.

Well, this isn't gel, but...

Nice post!

Thank you. Now back to actual gelatin testing:

Did you ever look to see what DT was using in the 223 with the 77gr?   ???

I can't. It's from a member at another site.

Thanks for sharing.
Sure reinforces Barnes TSX projectile reputation for deep penetration.  14" of ballistics gel, then another gallon of water...  Little surprised it didn't go into 2nd jug of water.

This would be excellent choice to hunt with imho but wouldn't be on my short list for a home defense. 
Based on 7.62x39 testing you've shared so far; for home defense options I've been most impressed with:
Federal Fusion
Winchester PDX1
Hornady z-max

I agree. I actually expected the bullet to stop in the first block, though. I think if it hadn't managed to shear off two petals, it would have. Another 50 yards out and the velocity might have been low enough to keep it together and have less penetration. That was what really surprised me. I wouldn't have expected a TSX to shed petals.

I kinda suspect the petal shearing was caused at or in the plastic gallon water jug.

TNOUTDOORS9 ran a similar test a year or more ago in 223 firing the 55 grain Barnes TSX.  His test results were very similar to yours, right down to petal shearing which he seemed to indicate occurred at or in the water jugs (if recollection serves).

That could certainly be the case for the one you see st the end of the video but the other was left around 2/3 through the block.

Looks like that 9mm 147 G-2 is a FLOP!  ???

Cor-Bon DPX interesting just like the Barnes TAC-XP, they are open and twisting till the fold the petals back.

Yeah, that's surprising.

Fiocchi 147 gr XTP fired from G22 with Lone Wolf 9mm conversion barrel through four layers of denim into calibrated 10% gelatin.

BB: 592.8 fps, 3.6"

Impact velocity: 957.1 fps
Penetration: 14" of gel, one 6" water jug
Retained weight: 147.0 gr
Max expansion: 0.460"
Min expansion: 0.365"

I have changed up my format quite a lot over the last few videos and I'm interested to hear what elements you like best. Which camera angles and segments are most entertaining or useful to you? What should I change and what should I keep the same?

Repaired the Youtube link  8)
Amazed at the penetration from those...Thanks for the Jello test video!

Thank you. Thought I got it right.

7.62x39mm Sellier & Bellot 123 gr jacketed soft point fired from WASR-10/63 into calibrated 10% gelatin. This ammunition is brass cased and boxer primed with a heavy crimp on the case mouth. The projectile measures 0.311"

BB: 592.8 fps, 3.6"

Impact velocity: 2,438 fps
Penetration: 14" of gelatin, 6" of water jug
Retained weight: 81.5 gr
Max expansion: 0.608"
Min expansion: 0.475"

I need to get my AK out again. It's been way too crowded on the weekends to do anything, but with the time change I will have daylight through the week to launch some!

More G2 failsauce.

Man, things aren't shaping up too well for the G2... What gives?? ??? It seems to be velocity related but you don't see nearly the same problem with XTPs or HSTs even at "short barrel" velocities. I'd love to see them cranked way up, perhaps to legit 10mm velocity. Fingers crossed. Otherwise: good ol' classic Gold Dot is just fine by me. No changes necessary!

  If I can get a box of them... let's pull the plug and try them!

Quote from: Raggedyman on February 14 2015 10:41:18 AM MST
More G2 failsauce.

Based on this an similar tests results G2 shaping up a pretty big loser imho.  Shootingthebull410's final thoughts on it way too generous and deferential to the results.  It outright failed in the most important variable tests of penetration/expansion with and without denim in the conceal carry sized pistols and right on the brink of failing through the 6" barrel.  Perhaps it performs well through barrier or other test variables but "new" duty ammo that only works well only through a very limited performance window.  No thanks; I'll pass. 
I do think it was interesting how far Shootingthebull410 bent over backwards to try and say something positive about it in the summation.

Maybe the Government #54227 is the real deal... and not available to us!

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?13776-Speer-Gold-Dot-G2-147-grain-PT-9mm/page7

Quote from: Intercooler on February 14 2015 07:04:31 PM MST
  If I can get a box of them... let's pull the plug and try them!

I am so down.

Fancy!

You like the new intro?

Pretty cool and so is slow motion.

Very nice, great intro well done! 8)

Very cool; I like the post production graphic effects at the intro. 

Don't have any personal experience with 9x18 Markarov; but the bare gel performance of test bullet
definitely not up to FBI minimum spec...  No I don't wanna get shot by one either. 

Really appreciate you doing these and sharing them.  I really liked the 450 Marlin u did last week.  Recently picked up a 45-70 lever gun for thick woods hunting, and while 450 Marlin couple hundred feet per second hotter, at least gives me some idea what to expect from the Hornady 325 grain LE round.

Yeah, it ought to be in the neighborhood. Is guess that less velocity would result in a little less fragmentation and a little more penetration. Of you take am animal, you should get pictures and measurements and share them.

Quote from: Intercooler on February 15 2015 03:40:10 PM MST
Maybe the Government #54227 is the real deal... and not available to us!

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?13776-Speer-Gold-Dot-G2-147-grain-PT-9mm/page7

Maybe...something like the Speer "LE" line.

Well, it's not a gel test but this is probably the best place for it.




Fixed the link...The Shadow

Fancy mancy! Getting better and better!


Can I ask a favor  ;D

  When possible can you test a few of the 9mm rounds I'm chompin at the bit to see?

- Montana Gold
- Nosler... Underwood or any of the others
- Remington Black Belt (leaving out tomorrow)
- Magtech JSP (tomorrow also)

Thanks again!
-

I'll do my best. Gotta mix things up. Thank you very much for supporting my project.

Quote from: Raggedyman on March 01 2015 01:48:13 PM MST
Well, it's not a gel test but this is probably the best place for it.
Fixed the link...The Shadow

Another urban legend decisive and definitively bites the dust!!

Great work Raggedyman!

These look pretty neat. Would Raggedyman want to do another test on these?

Raggedyman should have these to run in his own tests today.

Not a gel test... say what you will about the light weights  :P

Quote from: Intercooler on March 05 2015 04:07:52 PM MST

These look pretty neat. Would Raggedyman want to do another test on these?

Yeah. Looks interesting. And yes, I got the ammo. Thank you for your support.

Warning: grownup word near the end of the video.

Great job Raggedyman!  More great videos!  In the words of the Turtle Man "LiveAction!"
Those Skittles didn't stand a chance!   :o

LOL, yeah. I think that was a sobering demonstration of the terrifying power of this ammunition. This is obviously the sort of thing that has no business in civilian hands.

Bwahahaha :P
Good call with the coup de gras on the croc.  Pretty intense there for a second.

I'm wondering if another 100 FPS changes the Denim results?

Quote from: Intercooler on March 17 2015 04:03:16 AM MDT
I'm wondering if another 100 FPS changes the Denim results?

I would think that it would, especially with the very modest beginning of expansion we saw at the impact velocity. Some bullets just need that extra "oomph" to fully expand, especially through the denim, so when a manufacturer doesn't quite hit their velocity target the bullets fail to fully expand. I'd be willing to bet that if the velocity was cranked up another 7-10% it would definitely encourage the hollow point to open up, even through denim. It just takes the right amount of "persuasion." I hate to see a lack-luster test for a new product like these or the Gold Dot G2.

Does the lead look black on the one that didn't expand?

I can send a couple more if you want to try a longer barrel.

The lead does not look black. Buffman got about 140 fps faster with a 4.9" barrel and got good expansion in meat with denim.

Yea. I think this one wouldn't be a good round for the shorter barrels. It needs a little more speed!

Link to gel test by tnoutdoors9 of the 9mm Lehigh extreme penetrator. (Hopefully someone fix the link to make it run from webpage)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYLbmSp5itA

Underwood 115 gr Lehigh Extreme Penetrator solid copper projectile fired from Glock 22 with Lone Wolf 9mm conversion barrel into calibrated 10% gelatin.

BB: 585.3 fps, 3.3"

Impact velocity: 1,289 fps
Penetration: ~30" of gelatin & 2.5 feet
of water
Retained weight: 115.0 gr

No expansion.


For comparison, we took a look at some cheap 9mm ball. The cheapest I could find was S&B 115 gr FMJ. It was almost exactly 100 fps slower and penetrated quite a bit less. I expected lower velocity and less penetration but not to that degree. It was also surprising to see that plain, vanilla FMJ produced more tissue disruption than the vaunted Extreme Penetrator.

On my way out to test, I looked at my phone and saw that tnoutdoors9 had posted a video testing the very thing I was about to do. I was not thrilled, especially since he does such great work. It turns out that my test was a little different than his anyway.

I still see a lot of hype and price!  :o  If you were in a state that only allows non lead bullets you may have to utilize either a penetrator or high expansion 100% copper projectile.  But I would consider the Barnes Tac-XP.

However I still like the Cast HP's for being very affordable performance.  ;D


Thanks again RaggedyMan!   8)

I agree on all counts. Thank you for watching.

Quote from: The_Shadow on March 24 2015 10:29:11 AM MDT
I still see a lot of hype and price! :o  If you were in a state that only allows non lead bullets you may have to utilize either a penetrator or high expansion 100% copper projectile.  But I would consider the Barnes Tac-XP.

$30+ for 20 rounds (from Lehigh or Underwood)  :o






.

At this point seen several test of this projectile.....
Andrew's previous test in the 10mm wasn't terrible.  I thought it performed good enough to be a viable option against hog.     

As Andrew stated, his 9mm test result seemed somewhat unimpressive. I'd rate tnoutdoors9 results in this caliber as decent to fair.  Although both 9mm tests seemed to indicate that unless hit in CNS just about any animal struck with this projectile in 9mm is in for a loooooong, slow death (maybe).

gunblast tested it in 44 mag with results that "seemed" impressive. 
twangandbang did test in 357 mag (short nose) & 45 colt that also "seemed" to indicate impressive results.
Several others have tested it in 380 with decent results.

Bottom line at this point: not quite sure what the hell to make of it.  Obviously, the faster its pushed the better it does (cavitation).  But at price point; don't really see anything it gives over hard cast with decent meplat for much less $.     

   

Quote from: Rojo27 on March 24 2015 06:20:07 PM MDT
At this point seen several test of this projectile.....
Andrew's previous test in the 10mm wasn't terrible.  I thought it performed good enough to be a viable option against hog.     

As Andrew stated, his 9mm test result seemed somewhat unimpressive. I'd rate tnoutdoors9 results in this caliber as decent to fair.  Although both 9mm tests seemed to indicate that unless hit in CNS just about any animal struck with this projectile in 9mm is in for a loooooong, slow death (maybe).

gunblast tested it in 44 mag with results that "seemed" impressive. 
twangandbang did test in 357 mag (short nose) & 45 colt that also "seemed" to indicate impressive results.
Several others have tested it in 380 with decent results.

Bottom line at this point: not quite sure what the hell to make of it.  Obviously, the faster its pushed the better it does (cavitation).  But at price point; don't really see anything it gives over hard cast with decent meplat for much less $.     

I definitely agree with your last statement. I wrote an article about it which should publish soon on the homedefensegun.net

Raggedyman, I wonder what Prograde is loading them with? 
Did I send you any of the 45 Lyman 185 gr Devastator cast HP's?   ::)

I think so, but I haven't loaded anything in forever. I should load some up.

Thanks for sharing.  The Wolf 223 performance was pretty respectable.  Certainly better than I expected.

Nice. Results were similar to my test of the 10mm version. Still not sure how I feel about it, though.

Quote from: Raggedyman on May 22 2015 12:18:31 AM MDT
Nice. Results were similar to my test of the 10mm version. Still not sure how I feel about it, though.

Feel kinda conflicted about them as well.  I started out VERY skeptical about the whole concept; seeming to come to my attention on heels of the RIP Trocar BS.  Just as with the RIP overhype, the cost of these bad boys also stood out as pretty exorbitant and hard to justify....
On the flip side, every test (there have been quite few at this point) I've seen (from reputable people) of LEHIGH's CF have been pretty impressive. 
Impressive to the degree, I've broken down and bought a box in 45-70 (pigs) and 243 (deer) to try out on the next hunt. 

Please be sure to document the results as best you can. I'm really interested in how the handgun calibers perform.

Dr. Roberts was not impressed:

QuoteSo they designed a bullet that purposely breaks into pieces, thus decreasing mass, potential maximum expansion, and resulting in a small caliber size core that over-penetrates.....ya, that is really smart.

Interesting how the jacket peeled outward and the lead folded inward.... ???

Yeah, in not thrilled with the penetration but the design is certainly interesting.

What pistol and barrel length? Do you need another to set up for two blocks?

Quote from: Intercooler on May 28 2015 03:24:34 PM MDT
What pistol and barrel length? Do you need another to set up for two blocks?

G22 with LWD 4.5" bbl conversion. Got two more.

Raggedyman,
Are you using heavier blocks of gelatin?  Understand you're only testing 9mm here but it seems that your gel blocks don't seem to jump as much as they did in your earlier tests (used tape and heavy items to hold em down).   

Then my results go with yours.

Yes, I'm using heavier blocks than I did a while back. The tape isn't to hold them down and it doesn't. It's to hold the denim in place.

mrgunsngear new test of 308 140 grain Lehigh Defense CF.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qAkSs1GZErI


FREAKY!!  Aught to make for an extremely effective hunting round...

Wow. Any way you slice it, that's legit.

Quote from: Raggedyman on May 28 2015 01:51:39 PM MDT
Yeah, in not thrilled with the penetration but the design is certainly interesting.

Just my dirty mind, but every time I read this it sounds like we are reviewing a sex toy.  Sorry...Had to be said.

"Wow" is right, real surprised by that result.  Recipient of one of those would REALLY be having a bad day.
Perhaps you happened to get excellent batch as seen similar testing where they acted like FMJ. 

That's the problem with Russian ammo. Crazy Ivan changes projectiles any time he wants. That said, I got expansion with the 154 gr also. I'd say that if you're thinking of putting some away for SHTF, shoot it through some water jugs and if the recovered bullet is expanded and weighs more than half the starting weight, you're probably good to go.

It looks as though the 9mm spun its nose off...I was wondering how they would hold up.

The thing that I was concerned with was the rifling twist direction, as it relates to the bullet nose design...

(http://www.polycaseammo.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Inceptor-ARX1.jpg)

Well, that and that everything they claim is a steaming pile of bovine excrement. The physics just aren't there for any mechanism other than expansion to cause significantly greater wounding at pistol velocity. I'm sticking with my Gold Dots.

Comprehensive test of the new Lehigh magic bullet...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ClJcJ8LQFbQ

  Did the POTUS confiscate all of your pistols?  ;D

Lol. I've been focusing on rifles lately

Cool test, thanks for doing it! 

Haven't seen M855A1 available commercially. 

Performance in gel similar to Lehigh's controlled chaos or Federal's MK318 Mod 0....     

Interesting load the 300Blackout is!   8)
Looked like that petal was visible in the video coming out the side.

Thanks!

Yeah, you can clearly see it bounce off the table. I probably should have added some text pointing it out.

Interesting that it did that well...but I don't trust them! :-\

It would be cool if they just made a low cost practice round.

Yes it would.

They busted the HP off as pieces and the core delivered a deep penetration. 

Yes it is possible it was loaded with 16.2 grains Blue Dot   seeing You got 1319...

Lyman Devastators cast HP 255 grains Gas Checked
260 gr Lyman Devastator HPGC 0.431"
16.2 grains Blue Dot
CCI 350 primer
COAL seated in cannelure 1.692"
Velocity 1370 fps 8 3/8" BBL
Energy 1083 ft/lb


Intercooler Tested those with the Ruger Redhawk 7.5" barrel 255gr Cast 22.4gr's 1246, 1262, 1260, 1250, 1301, 1270. Average = 1264.83 FPS/ 905 LBS

The alloy is straight Wheel Weight probably too hard...I can adjust the alloy

Question for you guys.. wondering what the terminal effect would be if the Devastator type bullet was externally powdercoated? Have a new, complete HF powdercoat set with powder and thought it might tame leading issues in the magnum calibers

Pull-Down was Dec.19, 2015

(http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5163436ce4b0b470bd1fbb00/t/542339d3e4b04e698dfe7637/1411594708985/Defense-bullets.jpg?format=500w)

The Shadow added info...

I will pass on that Ruger ammo to.

A new one from TNOUTDOORS9:

https://www.full30.com/video/455b7125df48f959ae023f3d31652449

TNOUTDOORS9 & RAGGEDYMAN both back testing ammo..... 


[attachment deleted by admin]

Another tnoutdoors9 clear ballistics test.... 2 in one week :)

https://www.full30.com/video/652b0c46d3d5626f16c3d8ab2bb6de63

(posted the link, maybe someone could embed both of TN's recent full30 videos so they run from here)

More gel tests. Thanks Andrew... sending more soon!

Stong .44!


Fixed the link...The Shadow

Very entertaining! LOL

I was hoping it did better.

Quote from: Intercooler on November 17 2016 01:54:44 PM MST

Very entertaining! LOL

A Buzz Saw is cheaper than a box of RIP ammo.


.

Fiocchi 200gr XTP

Quote from: Intercooler on March 07 2017 09:27:59 AM MST
Fiocchi 200gr XTP

https://youtu.be/34fgEOxg_h4

Very respectable 44 magnum performance.

I am liking this considering last nights acquisition:

(http://fellingfamily.net/images/redhawk.jpg)

sorry about the potato quality.

Quote from: sqlbullet on March 07 2017 03:49:20 PM MST

sorry about the potato quality.

LOL, too funny. Very nice gun, model 29?

Redhawk with the 7.5" barrel.  The blue models are a little more rare, and I like the look of a blued gun.  I tend to favor really heavy bullets, and while I don't plan on a huge diet of 277 grain bullets at full power for the gun, I did want the peace of mind the extra beef the Redhawk gives with very heavy loads.

I will post up a thread about this and the Model 28-2 I got this past weekend once I have some better pictures.

For some reason I didn't recognize it as a Ruger, sorry. I have a Super Blackhawk, love shooting Ruger only loads through it, what a beast!

Sig Sauer .44 Magnum 240gr V-Crown

https://youtu.be/_P6TiISUVUo

 Very popular 9mm round.

  Love this one. Low recoil to boot!

This Ranger +P+ being 127 grain bullet and looking at the powder which maybe 6.2 grains Autocomp, while those velocities 1200+ fps are a little slower, than Underwood's 124 +P+ with 6.4 grains showed 1300 fps.

Raggedyman, I watched your video test of the SIG V-Crown 44 mag ammo and noticed you mentioned it (the 44 mag) recoils a lot.



What caliber/gun would you rather carry to use against bears: 10mm (Glock 20) or 4" 44 mag revolver?

I figure if you had only one shot and you were guaranteed a hit, a 44 mag would be better, but what if you were not guaranteed a hit on the first shot. figure any bullet type you want.




.

(https://i.imgur.com/6bADdQvl.jpg?1)

Test Gun: FN Five-seveN.
Barrel length: 4.8 Inches
Ammunition: FNH 5.7x28 40gr Hornady V-Max SS197SP, FNH 5.7x28mm 27gr HP SS198LF.
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: PACT 1 XP with inferred sky screens.
Gel Temperature 72 degrees.

(https://i.imgur.com/HIaiAIHl.jpg?1)

The 5.7x28mm was designed in conjunction with the P90 PDW (Personal Defense Weapon) and has had its fair amount of controversy. I think the idea was to give support troops a weapon that would perform better than the more a standard pistol round at penetrating body armor. Some consider this to be a rifle round while others say it's nothing more than a glorified .22 magnum. I personally think the latter is probably closer to right. As you will see just about any rifle round will put perform the 5.7. The FN Five-seveN is a blowback operated pistol with a 20 magazine. It's a soft shooting pistol made largely of polymer with a large grip, three dot sights, and a decent trigger pull.

The first type of ammo I used was the SS197SP. Round one had a velocity of 1729fps. The bullet was recovered in mutable parts with the polymer tip recover in two parts at 1.5 inches and 2.5 inches. The jacket separated at 9.5 inches and the recovered lead core stopped at 18.5 inches and weighed 25.6 grains. Round two traveled 1749fps and penetrated to 18.5 inches but didn't expand. The polymer tip broke into two parts and was recovered at 3 inches and 9.5 inches.

(http://i.imgur.com/Cn4L3xTl.jpg?1)[/url]

The SS198LF is a lead-free round and is supposed to be a law enforcement only round but not restricted by law and is easily found for anyone to purchase. Round one hit at a velocity of 2047fps curved upward and left the top of the block at 8.25 inches and was recovered on the floor. The second round had a velocity of 2083fps curved to the left and stopped at 8.75 inches and was recovered base forward without expanding.
(https://i.imgur.com/96T1T4Dl.jpg?1)

 (https://i.imgur.com/3gBHSmxl.jpg?1)

Test Gun: Colt 1991.
Barrel length: 5 inches.
Ammunition: Federal .45 ACP 230gr HST.
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: PACT 1 XP with inferred sky screens.
Five shot velocity average: 920fps
Gel Temperature 70 degrees.

Whenever I post a new test, on the several forums I post on, the one response comes up a lot is "I'll stick with HST" or some variant of that phrase. There is a very good reason for that. The HST is one of the best, if not the best, performers in all of the calibers I have tested it in. This is the first complete test I have done in the .45 ACP and I think this test, of the HST, will set the standard.

I got an average 5 shot velocity of 920fps with a high of 944fps and a low of 902fps. This average was 30fps higher than the advertised 890fps. Five shots at 10 yards were right at the point of aim and recoil was about what you would expect, not much different than most 230gr ball.

(https://i.imgur.com/F05IrC4l.jpg?1)

Round one in the bare gel had a velocity of 904fps, penetrated to 15 inches and expanded to .91 inches. Round two performed very similar to the first hitting the block at 927fps and matching the first round with 15 inches of penetration and .91 inches of expansion.

(https://i.imgur.com/TM10d3Wl.jpg?1)

The two rounds fired into the heavy clothing covered gel was very much like the two in the bare gel.  The first round had a velocity of 921fps and penetrated to 15.5 inches with an expansion of .82 inches. The last shot traveled at 910fps, expanded to .83 inches and penetrated to 15.25 inches.
 
(https://i.imgur.com/bKAbclvl.jpg?1)

I often get asked to post pictures of the gel after I shoot it. I normally don't because they just don't turn out very well or the block is getting dark from remelting. This block has only been reused once I thought I would give it a try.

Here are the first two rounds in bare gel.
(https://i.imgur.com/HMCv6csl.jpg?1)

With the two rounds through heave clothing.
(https://i.imgur.com/7y8ek5El.jpg?1) 
   
http://www.general-cartridge.com/ (http://www.general-cartridge.com/)


     

Great info, Thanks Folks

Thanks again for posting your testing & results!

(https://i.imgur.com/e1AMo1Kl.jpg?1)

Test Gun: Sig P229, Kahr MK9.
Barrel length: 3.9, 3 inches.
Ammunition: Federal 9mm 147gr HST.
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: PACT 1 XP with inferred sky screens.
Five shot velocity average: 967, 916fps
Gel Temperature 71 degrees.


This is the fourth installment and probably last with the 9mm HST line. Here is a link to the other 9mm HST rounds I tested.

http://www.general-cartridge.com/blog/federal-9mm-124grp-hst-in-clear-ballistics-gel (http://www.general-cartridge.com/blog/federal-9mm-124grp-hst-in-clear-ballistics-gel)

http://www.general-cartridge.com/blog/federal-9mm-124gr-hst1-in-clear-ballistics-gel (http://www.general-cartridge.com/blog/federal-9mm-124gr-hst1-in-clear-ballistics-gel)

http://www.general-cartridge.com/blog/federal-9mm-hst-147gr-p-in-clear-ballistics-gel (http://www.general-cartridge.com/blog/federal-9mm-hst-147gr-p-in-clear-ballistics-gel)

I got an average velocity of 967fps out of the P229 with a high of 975fps and a low of 953fps.

(https://i.imgur.com/tgFpsDvl.jpg?1)


I switch back to my Kahr for the short barrel testing and got an average velocity of 916fps with a high of 929fps and a low of 893fps.

(https://i.imgur.com/xX577rnl.jpg?1)

In the bare gel, out the P229 the first round had a velocity of 966fps and penetrated to 15.25 inches and had a recovered diameter of .67 inches. Round two hit at a velocity of 976fps expanded to .65 inches and also penetrated to 15.25 inches.

(https://i.imgur.com/PermvIYl.jpg?1)

In heaving clothing covered gel, the first round had a velocity of 976fps, penetrated to 19 inches and expanded to .65 inches. The second round had a velocity of 962fps expanded to .62 inches and penetrated to 16.25 inches.

(https://i.imgur.com/z9mTDyzl.jpg?1)

Out of the Kahr in the bare gel, the first round hit at a velocity of 922fps, penetrated to 16.25 inches and expanded to .65 inches. round two traveled at a velocity of 914fps, also penetrated to 16.25 inches and expanded to .63 inches.

(https://i.imgur.com/y0yqJ1al.jpg?1)

Thanks 5pins!
I'd say those are pretty definitive results.... Looking over all 4 tests, looks like you can't go wrong with the 9mm HST.   

I'd really like to see 9mm Winchester 147gr Ranger T in your test protocol if you ever get a mind to test it. 
I'd even renew offer to send you some for the test. 

Regards

Great info, Thanks!

(https://i.imgur.com/1V56PWol.jpg?1)

Test Gun: 1911
Barrel length: 5 inches.
Ammunition: Sig Sauer .38 Super 125gr V-Crown in Clear Ballistics Gel.
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: PACT 1 XP with inferred sky screens.
Five shot velocity average: 1212fps
Gel Temperature 73 degrees.

I don't think the .38 Super had ever been a very popular round for self-defense and it certainly isn't now. I did, however, pick up a beat-up franking 1911 recently and picked up a box of this Sig .38 Super V-Crown from Target Sports USA. The reality is, there isn't very much out there in the realm of SD ammo in this caliber.


I got an average five-shot velocity of 1212fps with a high of 1218fps and a low of 1204fps. This gun shoots a little to the left for me and the bottom two holes in the target were probably me. This round refused to feed in my gun. I have never shot anything but ball in it before so I don't know if its typical with this pistol but it probably is.

(https://i.imgur.com/5pYCZudl.jpg?1)

I wasn't able to set up the chronograph for the induvial shots.

Starting off with bare gel, both rounds penetrated to 16 inches. Round one expanded to .64 inches and had a recovered weight of 123.9 grains. Round two expanded to .63 inches with a weight of 124 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/NW3kBgsl.jpg?1)

Through heavy clothing, round one penetrated to 22.5 inches and expanded to .51 inches and a recovered weight of 123.9 grains. Number two penetrated to 23 inches, expanded to .54 inches and weight 123.9 also.     

(https://i.imgur.com/GZgsMLcl.jpg?1)

Thanks to everyone who put this together...Really nice job folks!

This is not exactly gel testing but it's Paul Harrel and he's what you might call a professional... :P

He is entertaining in his way and has an old sage wisdom delivery. 

We've also warmly debated the Underwood (Lehigh) Defender product line effectiveness (the magic flutes). So here is another comparison and demonstration of conventional jhp, Umderwood Defender & G2 Research RIPoff in 9mm. 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=v8I4WZ6M2fg#fauxfullscreen

(https://i.imgur.com/QjGajpdl.jpg?1)

I bought this ammo in the late 80's from a gun shop in Fayetteville, NC while stationed at Ft Bragg. It came in a bag of 5 or 6 and cost about $15 IIRC. Back then the rage in self-defense ammo was lightweight, high velocity, and rapid expansion/ fragmentation. Companies like Cor-Bon and Glaser made all the press in the popular magazines of the day. This round was made by a company called Personal Protection Systems and it promised high velocity of around 1600fps with expansion up to .80 inches and penetration of 6 to 8 inches! Wow, have times changed.

(http://i.imgur.com/1SETZP7l.jpg) (https://imgur.com/1SETZP7)

This round is a .45 ACP with a solid copper hollow point loaded on a nickel plated Remington case. The hollow point is covered with a polymer tip to aid in feeding and weighed 100 grains. When I shot this round it hit at a velocity of 1340fps and penetrated 9.5 inches. Recovered diameter was .60 inches. The plastic tip was not found and my guess is that it disintegrated on impact. Not very impressive and easily surpassed by what's available today.   

(http://i.imgur.com/RHyXFPkl.jpg?1) (https://imgur.com/RHyXFPk)

(https://i.imgur.com/vGq8G8nl.jpg?1)

Test Gun: Sig P229, Beretta Nano.
Barrel length: 3.9, 3 inches.
Ammunition: Speer GDHP 9mm 115gr +P+.
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 1267, 1169fps
Gel Temperature 71 degrees.

I bought this ammo a few years ago from SG ammo, and while I don't remember the price it was much less than the $30 a box they are asking now. IIRC it was under $20 a box. Even though it's a +P+ it shoots very nicely, even the Nano. Yes, I used the Nano for some reason. I don't know why since I don't shoot it very well. Maybe I need to justify keeping it around.

I got an average velocity of 1267fps out of the P229 with a high of 1277fps and low of 1255fps. At 10 yards it shot very well.

(https://i.imgur.com/VzZGVCml.jpg?1)


In the Nano, I got an average velocity of 1169fps with a high of 1179fps and a low of 1157fps. At 10 yards the first shot went way to the left and remaining four just a little low.

(https://i.imgur.com/RgS0x41l.jpg?1)


The first round out the P229 into the clear ballistics gel had a velocity of 1262fps and penetrated to 10 inches with a recovered diameter of .75 inches and a retained weight of 113.2 grains. The second round hit the gel block at a velocity of 1288fps, penetrated to 9.5 inches with an expansion of .80 inches and a recovered weight of 113.8 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/33Oursdl.jpg?1)




When shot through heavy clothing the first round had a velocity of 1267fps and penetrated to 20.25 inches. The recovered bullet had a diameter of .53 inches and a retained weight of 114.5 grains. Round two penetrated a little less at 16.25 inches and expanded to .55 inches and weighed of 113.5 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/R5lsnOjl.jpg?1)


Out of the Nano, the first round penetrated to 13 inches with a velocity of1183fps and had a recovered diameter of .64 inches and weighed 114.7 grains. Number two had a velocity of 1158fps, penetrated to 12.75 inches and expanded to .63 inches and retained weight of 113.8 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/IfJtSgVl.jpg?1)

(https://i.imgur.com/CNnGaX2l.jpg?1)

Test Gun: Sig P229, Beretta Nano.
Barrel length: 3.9, 3 inches.
Ammunition: Federal 9mm 115gr JHP +P+.(9bple)
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 1234, 1188fps
Gel Temperature 71 degrees.


Many of you reading this will be familiar with this round. The 9bple as it is so often referred to. At this time the price is not much more than some FMJ practice ammo that's available. SG ammo probably has the best price right now at around $15 a box when it's in stock. It shot well out of both guns at 10 yards.


Out of the P229, it had an average velocity of 1234fps with a high of 1249fps and a low of 1223fps. 

(https://i.imgur.com/8S2OrfMl.jpg?1)

In the Nano, I got an average velocity of 1188fps with a high of 1201 and a low of 1175fps.

(https://i.imgur.com/pbMKb43l.jpg?1)

Starting with the P229, the first round had a velocity of 1251fps and penetrated to 9.5 inches. The bullet expanded to .69 inches and had a recovered weight of 114.8 grains. Round two's velocity of 1244fps, penetrated to 10.25 inches, expanded to .66 inches, and a weight of 113.8 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/BKBJTxQl.jpg?1)

Through the clothed covered gel the first shot penetrated 13 inches and expanded to .61 inches at a velocity of 1217fps and had a recovered weight of 114.2 grains. Round two hit the gel block at 1257fps and penetrated to 17.75 inches. It expanded to .53 inches and had a recovered weight of 113.8 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/vlaJAgyl.jpg?1)

Out of the Beretta Nano, the first round had a velocity of 1183fps, penetrated to 11.75 inches and expanded to .63 inches with a recovered weight of 113.9 grains. Round two's velocity was 1158fps. The bullet penetrated to 11 inches with .65 inches of expansion and a recovered weight of113.9 grains. 

(https://i.imgur.com/lIDunAil.jpg?1)

Have always liked the .45 auto 230gr HST loads

(https://i.imgur.com/qQ9yEcgl.jpg)

Test Gun: Sig P229, Beretta Nano.
Barrel length: 3.9, 3 inches.
Ammunition: Winchester 147gr Silvertip JHP
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 947, 914 fps
Gel Temperature 71 degrees.

I sure most people here are familiar with the Winchester Silvertip.  I've had this box for a while now and found it the other day and decided to give it a try. Out of the Sig, I got an average velocity of 947fps with a high of 972 and a low of 937fps.  Out of the Beretta Nano, I got an average velocity of 914fps with a high of 924fps and a low of 894fps.

(https://i.imgur.com/B8af2kDl.jpg?1)

Out of the Sig P229, the first round into the bare gel penetrated 17.5 inches and expanded to .56 inches. No velocity reading but the recovered weight was 149.4 grains. The second hit the block at 968fps and penetrated to 17 inches. It also expanded to .56 inches and had a recovered weight of 149.8 grains. Both bullets were recovered base forward even though there was no sign of tumbling.

(https://i.imgur.com/SUoW0FZl.jpg?1)

When shot through clothing covered gel, the first round had a velocity of 930fps and penetrated to 19 inches. The recovered diameter was .44 inches and weighed 149.6 grains. Round two hit at a velocity of 936fps, penetrated to 19.5 inches with no expansion. It did show some deformation of the nose and the recovered weight was 149.5 grains. Both bullets stopped nose forward but the gel showed tumbling midway through the first block.

(https://i.imgur.com/BH5SuPIl.jpg?1)

(https://i.imgur.com/1Q5q1yQl.jpg?2)

Out of the Beretta Nano, the first round penetrated to 18 inches with a recovered diameter of .55 inches and a weight of 149.6 grains. No velocity was recorded. Round two had a velocity of 888fps and penetrated to 18 inches also. It expanded to .53 inches and weighted 149.7 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/oPSAGNvl.jpg?1)

Thanks for sharing 5pins.  Always appreciate the data sets!!

(https://i.imgur.com/7Nuksbbl.jpg?1)

Test Gun: Smith and Wesson model 65.

Barrel length: 3 inches.

Ammunition: Sig .357 Magnum 125gr V-Crown.

Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.

Distance: 10 feet.

Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.

Five shot velocity average: 1219fps.

Gel Temperature 70 degrees.

The Sig V-Crown continues to disappoint. I got a five-round average velocity of 1219fps with a high of 1238fps and a low of 1192fps.

(http://i.imgur.com/ipRy42hl.jpg?1) (http://"https://imgur.com/ipRy42h")


The first round in the bare gel had a velocity of 1204fps and penetrated to 21.5 inches. Expansion at the point where the two pieces of jackets were sticking out was .58 inches but was only .42 inches at the body. Recovered weight was 124 grains.  Round two hit at 1218fps, penetrated to 20 inches and expanded to .54 inches and had a recovered weight of 124.6 grains.

(http://i.imgur.com/AMvaaLFl.jpg?1) (http://"https://imgur.com/AMvaaLF")

In the heavy clothed gel, the first round had a velocity of 1292fps and penetrated to 23 inches. The recovered weight was 125 grains with no expansion. The second round also penetrated 23 inches. Had a recovered weight of 125 grains and no expansion. It had a velocity of 1201fps.

Both bullets were recovered base forward.

(http://i.imgur.com/dXpFu0ml.jpg?1) (http://"https://imgur.com/dXpFu0m")

Seems like that's been the story with Sig V-Crown....
Does well in some calibers like 10mm but others like 357 mag & 9mm maybe even 45acp not well at all. 

(http://i.imgur.com/a72Gtv6l.jpg?1) (http://"https://imgur.com/a72Gtv6")

Test Gun: Magnum Research Desert Eagle.

Barrel length: 6 inches.

Ammunition: Armscor .50 AE 300gr GDHP .

Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.

Distance: 10 feet.

Chronograph:

Velocity: 1250 fps (Per Manufacturer).

Gel Temperature 70 degrees.

I had some issues with the chronograph so I don't have any velocity on this round but the factory claims 1250fps so we will just go with that. As you could image, a 300gr bullet at 1250fps has a pretty stout recoil but the heft of the Desert Eagle at almost four and a half pounds makes it enjoyable.

(http://i.imgur.com/wkQ5KR5l.jpg?1) (http://"https://imgur.com/wkQ5KR5")

Last time I checked game animals are not wearing clothing so I just did two rounds in bare gel. Both rounds penetrated 22 inches of gel. The first round had a recovered diameter of .82 inches and the second came in at .81 inches. The recovered weight came in at 300.3 and 300.4 grains.   

(http://i.imgur.com/qT421Ovl.jpg?2) (http://"https://imgur.com/qT421Ov")

Outstanding expansion, outstanding penetration.......  Appears to be a very, very good voice for medium sized game (and bigger) hunting!!! 

Might take an impressive belt to carry a 4.37lbs pistol on your hip for a day of hunting.  Do they make slings for the desert eagle? 

(http://i.imgur.com/3JCuX9ql.jpg?1) (http://"https://imgur.com/3JCuX9q")

Test Gun: Sig P229, S&W Shield.

Barrel length: 3.9 inches, 3.1 inches.

Ammunition: Winchester .40 S&W 165gr "T" Series

Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.

Distance: 10 feet.

Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.

Five shot velocity average: 1151, 1093fps

Gel Temperature 70 degrees.

This is one snappy round out of the M&P Shield but quite a bit more manageable out of the Sig. With the Sig P229, I got an average five-shot velocity of 1151fps with a high of 1156fps and a low of 1147fps.

(http://i.imgur.com/y3zPBael.jpg?1) (http://"https://imgur.com/y3zPBae")

In the Shield, the average was 1093fps with a high of 1105fps and a low of 1086fps.

(http://i.imgur.com/PEuYocLl.jpg?1) (http://"https://imgur.com/PEuYocL")

Round one in the bare gel had a velocity of 1151fps and penetrated to 15 inches. It had a recovered .64 inches and a weight of 144.1 grains. Round two hit at 1158fps, penetrated to 14 inches, expanded to .63 inches, and a recovered weight of 145.4 grains.

(http://i.imgur.com/RJv4eCll.jpg?1) (http://"https://imgur.com/RJv4eCl")

Performance in Heavy clothing was very well with the first round having a velocity of 1138fps and expanded to .66 inches with a recovered weight of 150.6 grains. Round two had a velocity of 1141fps, expanded to .64 inches and a recovered weight of 153 grains. Both rounds penetrated to 15 inches.

(http://i.imgur.com/pUWOOSrl.jpg?1) (http://"https://imgur.com/pUWOOSr")

Out of the Shield, the first round in the bare gel had a velocity of 1095fps and penetrated to 15 inches with an expansion of .66 inches. Recovered weight was 144.2 grains. Round two's velocity was 1097fps with a penetration 14.5 inches. Recovered diameter was .67 inches and a weight of 144.7 grains.

(http://i.imgur.com/VjA9p4Bl.jpg?1) (http://"https://imgur.com/VjA9p4B")

Hey 5pins,
Just a heads up, description names Federal 180gr HST as the test ammo;
the box pictured and the ammo is Winchester 165gr Ranger T.

Quote from: Rojo27 on October 26 2018 04:29:23 PM MDT
Hey 5pins,
Just a heads up, description names Federal 180gr HST as the test ammo;
the box pictured and the ammo is Winchester 165gr Ranger T.

Thanks, it's fixed.

(http://i.imgur.com/H3jQLkpl.jpg?1) (http://"https://imgur.com/H3jQLkp")

Test Gun: Sig P229, S&W Shield.

Barrel length: 3.9 inches, 3.1 inches.

Ammunition: Hornday .40 S&W 180gr XTP

Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.

Distance: 10 feet.

Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.

Five shot velocity average: 949, 890fps

Gel Temperature 70 degrees.

Out of the Sig P229, the five shot average velocity was 949fps with a high of 964fps and a low of 921fps.

(http://i.imgur.com/xBa0bDPl.jpg?1) (http://"https://imgur.com/xBa0bDP")

From the Sheild, I got an average velocity of 890fps with a high of 901fps and a low of 869fps.

(http://i.imgur.com/ElfC490l.jpg?1) (http://"https://imgur.com/ElfC490")

The first round from the Sig hit the bare gel at a velocity of 914fps and penetrated to 21 inches. The expansion was .51 inches and the recovered weight was 180.2 grains. Round two had a velocity of 931fps, expanded to .52 inches with a penetration of 20.25 inches and a recovered weight of 180.2 grains. 

(http://i.imgur.com/OtShkWjl.jpg?1) (http://"https://imgur.com/OtShkWj")

In the heavy clothing covered gel, the first round had a velocity of 932fps and penetrated to 26 inches with no expansion. Recovered weight was 180.3 grains. Number two also had no expansion and penetrated to 27.25 inches. Velocity was 938 fps and weight was 180.1 grains.

(http://i.imgur.com/hoRuBjAl.jpg?1) (http://"https://imgur.com/hoRuBjA")

From the M&P Sheild, round one had a velocity of 852fps and penetrated to 21.5 inches. Recovered weight was 180.1 grains and expansion was .50 inches. The second round had a velocity of 911fps and penetrated to 22.5 inches. Recovered weight was 180.2 grains and expansion was .51 inches.


(http://i.imgur.com/Qy1g7mql.jpg?1) (http://"https://imgur.com/Qy1g7mq")

(https://i.imgur.com/sD9JOXLl.jpg?1)

Test Gun: Sig P229.

Barrel length: 3.9 inches.

Ammunition: Sig Sauer .357 Sig 125gr V-Crown

Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.

Distance: 10 feet.

Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.

Five shot velocity average: 1308fps

Gel Temperature 73 degrees.


With this round, I got an average 5 shot velocity of 1308fps with a high of 1319fps and a low of 1290fps.

(https://i.imgur.com/OPdUoIvl.jpg?1)

The first round had an impact velocity of 1342fps and penetrated to 12 inches. Recovered diameter was .73 inches and weighted 124 grains. The second round also penetrated to 12 inches with an expansion of .71 inches. Recovered weight was 124.4 grains and the velocity was 1335fps.

(https://i.imgur.com/nBuN5Vpl.jpg?1)

In the heavy clothing covered gel, the chronograph didn't read the velocity. The penetration was 16.5 inches with an expansion of .59 and weight of 124.6 grains. Round two's velocity was 1316fps and penetrated to 19 inches. The weight of the projectile was 125.3 grains and diameter of .56 inches.

(https://i.imgur.com/1aJjmEfl.jpg?1)

I wonder what powder Sig is using in the 357Sig ammo?

(https://i.imgur.com/nDmeLBll.jpg?1)

Test Gun: Sig P229, Beretta Nano.
Barrel length: 3.9, 3 inches.
Ammunition: Megtech 147gr JHP Bonded
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 969, 930 fps
Gel Temperature 80 degrees.



This is a first in a series of "budget" 9mm ammo. With Federal's sharp increase in 50 round boxed HST's numerous people on several forums have been seeking reasonably priced alternatives. In order to be considered budget ammo, It must come in 50 round boxes at a price under $20. With that criteria in mind, I dragged my Visa through Target Sports USA and purchased 11 different loadings. I went with Target Sports only because it had the most 9mm ammo that fit my definition of budget at the time.



After receiving the ammo I fired one round of each type into the bare gel from a Sig P229 in an attempt to decide on how to start. The one round that caught my attention was the Magtech 147gr JHP. The price of this ammo from Target Sports was $16.99.     



Five shot average from the Sig P229 was 969fps with a high of 985fps and a low of 966fps. Point of aim at ten yards was fine. 

(https://i.imgur.com/KR5bBhbl.jpg?1)

Five shot average from the Beretta Nano was 930fps with a high of 940fps and a low of 914fps. The Nano didn't shoot this round very well at all at ten yards. It's also posable I was having a bad day with the Nano, it's not an easy gun for me to shoot.

(https://i.imgur.com/jaHkzUcl.jpg?1) 

From the P229 the first round in the bare gel had a velocity of 992fps and penetrated to 16 inches. Recovered weight was146.3 grains and expanded to .66 inches. Round two hit the gel at 971fps and penetrated to 16.25 inches. Recovered weight was 147.7 grains and it expanded to .61 inches.

(https://i.imgur.com/zI7cqOul.jpg?1)

The results in the clothing covered gel were mixed. The first rounds velocity was not recorded. It penetrated to 22.5inches with an expansion of .52 inches and a recovered weight of 146..4 grains. Round two had a velocity of 974fps and penetrated to 19 inches. There was no expansion and the bullet tumbled and was recovered base forward. Two pedals broke off the bullet and the recovered weight was 142.9 grains.     

(https://i.imgur.com/tfsxRtwl.jpg?1)

Out of the Nano, the first round penetrated to 18 inches with a velocity of 953fps. The recovered weight was 146.5 grains and expanded to .63 inches. Round two's velocity was 950fps and it penetrated to 16 inches. Recovered weight was 146.8 grains and it expanded to .62 inches. 

(https://i.imgur.com/HJZCIm6l.jpg?1)

I have some Magtech +P+ screamers I always wanted to see hit the gel block  ;)

Quote from: Intercooler on December 29 2018 03:06:19 AM MST
I have some Magtech +P+ screamers I always wanted to see hit the gel block  ;)

http://www.general-cartridge.com/blog/magtech-9mm-115gr-jhp-p-in-clear-ballistics-gel (http://www.general-cartridge.com/blog/magtech-9mm-115gr-jhp-p-in-clear-ballistics-gel)

Didn't seem too bad! They rock for sure!

(https://i.imgur.com/CMNJq6Al.jpg?1)

Test Gun: Sig P229, Beretta Nano.
Barrel length: 3.9, 3 inches.
Ammunition: Fiocchi 115gr JHP
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 1080, 1039fps
Gel Temperature 70 degrees.

The second installment in the 9mm budget series is the Fiocchi Pistol Shooting Dynamics 115gr JHP. The price was $13.99 for a 50 round box from Target Sports U.S.A. This bullet is not a Hornady XTP like Fiocchi's that come in the 25 round boxes and it's about half the cost. This load is also on the flashy side.


The Sig gave an average five-shot velocity of 1080fps with a high of 1094fps and a low of 1066fps.

(https://i.imgur.com/XH3vlvOl.jpg?1)
Ten yards off hand five shots with the Sig P229

In the Nano, I got an average velocity of 1039fps with a high of 1063fps and a low of 1030fps.

(https://i.imgur.com/aHFqNnMl.jpg?1)
Ten yards off hand five shots with the Beretta Nano

The first round in the bare gel, fired from the Sig P229, had a velocity of 1081fps. It penetrated to a depth of 18.5 inches with a recovered weight of 115.2 grains and a recovered diameter of .48 inches. The second round had a velocity of 1071fps and also penetrated to 18.5 inches. It expanded to .47 inches and came in at 115 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/3plv4Pbl.jpg?1)

When shot through the gel covered with heavy clothing the first round penetrated 22 inches with a recovered weight of 114.9 grains and a diameter of .49 inches. No velocity reading was recorded. The second round hit the block at 1066fps and penetrated to 23 inches. The recovered diameter was .43 inches and the recovered weight was 115.2 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/k6wV3M1l.jpg?1)

Out of the Beretta Nano, the first round impacted the bare gel block at 1072fps and penetrated to 20.5 inches. The diameter of the recovered bullet was .46 inches and the recovered weight was 115.2 grains. The chronograph did not get a reading but the bullet also penetrated to 20.5 inches. The recovered weight was 115 grains and recovered diameter was .44 inches.

(https://i.imgur.com/IneOdZ3l.jpg?1)

(https://i.imgur.com/pF7qln5l.jpg?1)

Test Gun: Sig P229, Beretta Nano.
Barrel length: 3.9, 3 inches.
Ammunition: Remington 124gr +P BJHP Bonded
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 1108, 1055fps
Gel Temperature 70 degrees.


In the third installment of the budget 9 series, we take a look at the Remington 124gr +P Golden Saber Bonded. This ammo is the highest priced tested to $19.99 a box, coming in just under the $20 limit. There are a couple of interesting things of note about this ammo. It's called a brass jacked hollow point but it appears to be a standard copper jacket, with the offset jacket skives.


Of greater concern was the number of what appeared to be miss formed hollow points. The box consisted of about half of them. The depth of the points seemed to be shallower and the lead around the jacket rim was thicker. The obvious question was if it would affect performance. I decided to pick the tested rounds at random with the thought that anyone using this ammo would do the same when loading their magazine.

(https://i.imgur.com/BJHPjB8l.jpg?1)

From the Sig P229, I got a five average velocity of 1108fps with a high of 1128fps and a low of 1078fps.

(https://i.imgur.com/RzFhjZ1l.jpg?1)
Ten yards off hand five shots with the Sig P229

Out of the Nano, I got a five shot average velocity of 1055fps with a high of 1091fps and a low of 1040fps

(https://i.imgur.com/hxKN4NTl.jpg?1)
Ten yards off hand five shots with the Beretta Nano

From the Sig P229, the first round into the bare gel had a velocity of 1123fps and penetrated 19.25 inches. The expanded diameter was .60 inches and recovered weight was 124 grains. Round two hit the block at 1068fps and to a depth of 16.25 inches. The expansion was .65 inches and it weighed 124.9 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/9cmLFdml.jpg?1)

In the clothing covered gel, the first round from the P229 had a velocity of 1111fps and penetrated 21.25 inches. The expansion was .61 inches and recovered weight was 124.3 grains. The second round had a velocity of 1099fps and completely passed through both 16-inch blocks and was not recovered.

(https://i.imgur.com/QXXZccHl.jpg?1)

With the Nano, the first round in bare gel the bullet penetrated to 14.5 inches and expanded to .64 inches with a recovered weight of 125.2 grains. The velocity was not recorded. Round two hit the block at 1083fps and penetrated to 16.5 inches. It expanded to .60 inches and weighed 123.4 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/bvS4tYdl.jpg?1)

I also decided to shoot two rounds of each type of different hollow points from the P229. The first two were the miss-formed bullets. The first round had a velocity of 1068fps and penetrated to 14.47 inches. The recovered weight was 124 grains and it expanded to .64 inches. Round two had a velocity of 1077fps and penetrated to 15.5 inches. The recovered weight was 125 grains and expansion was also .64 inches.

(https://i.imgur.com/AL6NdTGl.jpg?1)


With the properly formed bullets, the first went 17.5 inches, expanded to .58 inches, and had a recovered weight of 122.6 grains. The velocity was not recorded. And the last round had a velocity of 1145fps and penetrated to 16 inches. The recovered diameter was .62 inches and weight was 123.4 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/ollcSZXl.jpg?1)

All very nice work 5pins!  Wish you were doing some pull-down documentations, to show & measure powder being used... :D

Very interesting info...GS bullets have always had brass looking jackets, I wonder why these didn't. That's why they named them "Golden" Sabre lol. Also interesting deviations with the cavities. I'd probably call Remington with the lot number and inquire.

(https://i.imgur.com/Ci6zJHMl.jpg?1)

Test Gun: Sig P229, Beretta Nano.
Barrel length: 3.9, 3 inches.
Ammunition: Remington 147gr BJHP Golden Saber
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 894, 883 fps
Gel Temperature 72 degrees.

Round four in the budget 9 series is featuring the Remington 147gr Gloden Saber BJHP. This ammo came in at a price of $16.99 per 50 rounds.

From the Sig 229, I got an average five-shot velocity of 894 fps with a high of 928 fps and a low of 872 fps.

(https://i.imgur.com/KdWAJOKl.jpg?1)
Ten yards off hand five shots with the Sig P229

From the Nano, I got a five-shot velocity of 883 fps with a high of 896 fps and a low of 868 fps. This must be the best group I have shot form the Nano.

(https://i.imgur.com/O4mSAVol.jpg?1)
Ten yards off hand five shots with the Beretta Nano

The first round for the P229 hit the bare gel at a velocity of 916 fps and penetrated to 14.5 inches. Recovered diameter was .67 inches and recovered weight was 147.4 grains. The second round had a velocity was 918 fps and penetrated to 16.25 inches. Recovered diameter was .66 inches and the recovered weight was 146.9 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/jGF90U4l.jpg?1)

The first round in the cover gel velocity was 903 fps and penetrated to 15.5 inches. The recovered weight was 147.2 grains and it expanded to .66 inches.  The second round had a velocity of 925 fps. The jacket and lead core separated and the core was recovered at 16.25 inches and the jacket was recovered at 15.25 inches. The jacket expanded to .66 inches and the core .41 inches. The recovered weight of the jacket was 36 grains and the lead core was 110.3 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/26S0HAXl.jpg?1)

Out of the Nano, the first round in the bare gel had a velocity of 870 fps and penetrated to 16 inches. The recovered diameter was .65 inches and it weighed 147.6 grains. The second round had a velocity of 908 fps and penetrated to 16.5 inches. It expanded to .62 inches and had a recovered weight of 147.1 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/UeiTt4cl.jpg?1)

http://www.general-cartridge.com (http://www.general-cartridge.com)

(https://i.imgur.com/HXOe8dcl.jpg?1)

Test Gun: Sig P229, Beretta Nano.
Barrel length: 3.9, 3 inches.
Ammunition: Remington 147gr BJHP Golden Saber
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 1036, 997fps
Gel Temperature 70 degrees.

In the fifth installment of the budget 9 series, we take a look at the lighter weight brother of the last cartridge we shot. The Remington 124gr BJHP Golden Saber. The price on this one comes in at $15.99 a box of fifty, a dollar less than the 147gr version.

From the Sig P229, I got an average velocity of 1036fps with a high of 1065fps and a low of 984.

(https://i.imgur.com/gDw9KJJl.jpg?1)
Ten yards off hand five shots with the Sig P229

In the Nano, I got a five-shot velocity average of 997 fps with a high of 1020fps and a low of 975fps.

(https://i.imgur.com/t1DO161l.jpg?1)
Ten yards off hand five shots with the Beretta Nano

From the Sig, the first round in the bare gel had a velocity of 967fps and penetrated to 16.5 inches. The expansion was .64 inches and recovered weight was 122.4 grains. The second round had a velocity of 1012fps and penetrated to 15.5 inches. the bullet expanded to .64 inches also and had a recovered weight of 123.3 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/HYY9IZKl.jpg?1)

When shot in the clothing covered gel the first round had a velocity of 1003fps and penetrated to 20 inches. There was no expansion but part of the hollow point had separated. Recovered weight was 121.4 grains. Round two hit the gel block at a velocity of 1093fps and penetrated to 18 inches. The bullet expanded to .64 inches and had a recovered weight of 120.1 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/1nfXyail.jpg?1)

From the Nano, the first round in the gel had a velocity of 1007fps and penetrated to 16 inches. It expanded to .63 inches and had a recovered weight of 123.9 grains. The last round traveled at 991fps and penetrated to 15.75 inches. The expansion was also .63 inches and the recovered weight was 123.4 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/0mPRnjDl.jpg?1)

Thank you all,  I'm grateful for the time  and effort you all put into these

Ken

(https://i.imgur.com/tAerTZgl.jpg?1)

Test Gun: Sig P229, Beretta Nano.
Barrel length: 3.9, 3 inches.
Ammunition: Remington 115gr JHP HTP
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 1052, 1041fps
Gel Temperature 70 degrees.

If I'm counting with my fingers correctly this is the sixth in the Budget 9 series. This time we are taking a look at the Remington 9mm 115gr JHP High Terminal Performance. The price for this round was $13.99 and was tied for the lowest price.

The five shot velocity from the Sig P229 was 1052fps with a high of 1087fps and a low of 1029fps. The one round out of the group was totally me.

(https://i.imgur.com/lym3GJ8l.jpg?1)
Ten yards off hand five shots with the Sig P229

From the Nano, I got a five-shot velocity of 1041fps with a high of 1070fps and a low of 1003fps.

(https://i.imgur.com/8sbR3IAl.jpg?1)

The first shot fired for the P229 into the bare gel has a velocity of 1078fps and penetrated to 18.25 inches. The recovered diameter of the bullet was .51 inches and the recovered weight was 115.8 grains. The second round hit the block at 1089fps and penetrated to 16 inches. the bullet expanded to .52 inches and weighed 115 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/rJkcmXtl.jpg?1)

When shot into the heavy clothed gel the first round's velocity was 1132fps and penetrated to 17.5 inches. The recovered weight was 114.9 grains and the diameter was .52 inches. Number two had a velocity of 1091fps and penetrated to 20.5 inches and was recovered base forward. The recovered diameter was .51 inches and recovered weight was 114.9 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/X6vsfBil.jpg?1)

Round one from the Nano into the bare gel had a velocity of 997fps and penetrated to 17 inches. The expansion was .43 inches and the recovered weight was 114.2 grains. The second round's velocity was 1009fps and penetrated to a depth of 20.5 inches. The expansion was .50 inches and recovered weight of 115 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/mO6VEb7l.jpg?1)

Nice additions to the testing, Thanks 5pins!  :D

I had a typo on the penetration depth of the first round. It is 18.25 inches not 10.25.

Do you keep an Excel file, or other for your test videos? Have you done the Magtech 9mm +P+?

I just post everything on my Blog.

Here is the link to the Magtech 115gr 9mm +P+.

http://www.general-cartridge.com/blog/magtech-9mm-115gr-jhp-p-in-clear-ballistics-gel (http://www.general-cartridge.com/blog/magtech-9mm-115gr-jhp-p-in-clear-ballistics-gel)

(https://i.imgur.com/SqLHJOll.jpg?1)

Test Gun: Sig P229, Beretta Nano.
Barrel length: 3.9, 3 inches.
Ammunition: Federal 147gr JHP
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 934, 908fps
Gel Temperature 70 degrees.

Unless I have lost count this should be lucky number seven in the budget 9 line up. This time we take a look at the Federal 147gr JHP. This is the "white box" version. Price for this ammo is also $13.99 per box and like many others tied for the lowest price.


Average five shot velocity from the Sig P229 was 934fps with a high of 950fps and a low of 923fps.

(https://i.imgur.com/zNmasXUl.jpg?1)
Ten yards off hand five shots with the Sig P229

From the Nano, the five shot velocity was 908fps with a high of 919fps and a low of 898fps.

(https://i.imgur.com/CrnI6JWl.jpg?1)
Ten yards off hand five shots with the Beretta Nano

The first round from the Sig P229 hit the bare gel block at a velocity of 939fps and penetrated to 15.25 inches. Recovered weight was 141.4 grains and the recovered diameter was .56 inches. The second round had a velocity of 934fps and penetrated to 15 inches. The bullet expanded to .57 inches and had a recovered weight of 141.2 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/QAMfUsRl.jpg?1)

When fired in the gel block covered with heavy clothing the first round from the Sig had a velocity of 949fps and penetrated to 14.25 inches. The expansion was .39 inches and recovered weight was 140.8 grains. The bullet tumbled and was found base forward. Round two hit at 944fps and penetrated to 19 inches. It expanded to .47 inches and had a recovered weight of 141.1 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/Lg5MGTGl.jpg?1)

From the Beretta Nano, the first round's velocity was 922fps and penetration was 15.5 inches. The recovered diameter was .54 inches and the recovered weight was 141.5 grains. Round two's velocity was 928fps and it also penetrated 15.5 inches. The expansion was .55 inches and recovered weight was 141.2 inches.

(https://i.imgur.com/t9wuQusl.jpg?1)

(https://i.imgur.com/8dpD5pFl.jpg?1)

Test Gun: Sig P229, Beretta Nano.
Barrel length: 3.9, 3 inches.
Ammunition: Federal 115gr JHP (XM9001)
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 1190, 1128fps
Gel Temperature 75 degrees.



Number eight in the series is the Federal XM9001 115gr JHP. This load is often compared to the +P+ 9pble and appears to use the same bullet but pushing then with less velocity and more penetration. It also comes in at $13.99 for a box of 50.



With the Sig 229, I got a five-shot average velocity of 1190fps with a high of 1198fps and a low of 1182fps.

(https://i.imgur.com/abybQRKl.jpg?1)
Ten yards off hand five shots with the Sig P229

Out of the Nano, the five shot velocity average was 1128fps with a high of 1151fps and a low of 1114fps.

(https://i.imgur.com/Q3ZOwAdl.jpg?1)
Ten yards off hand five shots with the Beretta Nano

The first round from the Sig P229 hit the bare gel block at a velocity of 1191fps and penetrated to 11.25 inches. The recovered diameter was .67 inches and weight was 115.2 grains. The second round's velocity was 1202fps and it penetrated to 11 inches. The recovered weight was 115.6 grains and its expansion was .66 inches.

(https://i.imgur.com/quaJEesl.jpg?1)

In the gel covered with heavy clothing, the first round from the Sig the had a velocity of 1201fps and penetrated to 12.5 inches. The recovered diameter was .65 inches and the weight was 113.1 grains. Round two's velocity was 1220fps and it penetrated to 10.5 inches.  The recovered diameter was .67 inches and the recovered weight was also 113.1 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/fVUVixEl.jpg?1)

Using the Beretta Nano the first round in the bare gel had a velocity of 1120fps and penetration of 11.5 inches. The recovered weight was 114.2 grains and the recovered diameter was .63 inches. Round two had a velocity of 1139fps and it penetrated to 11 inches. The bullet weight was 114.4 grains and the diameter was .64 inches.

(https://i.imgur.com/6Pk3aALl.jpg?1)

Awesome as always 5pins, thanks for all your efforts!

Ken

(https://i.imgur.com/8Vq6GVyl.jpg?1)

Test Gun: Sig P229, Beretta Nano.
Barrel length: 3.9, 3 inches.
Ammunition: Federal 115gr JHP Train + Protect
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 1102, 1056fps
Gel Temperature 75 degrees.

In the ninth load in the budget 9 series, we take a look at the Federal 115gr Train + Protect JHP. As near as I can tell this round uses the same 115 grain bullet as Federal 9pb, 9pble, and the XM9001. This load also comes in a little on the higher side of  $17.99 for a 50 round box.



From the Sig 229, I got an average velocity of 1102 with a high of 1110fps and a low of 1097fps.

(https://i.imgur.com/DBmB8Khl.jpg?1)
Ten yards off hand five shots with the Sig P229

From the Beretta Nano, I got a five shot average velocity of 1056fps with high of 1070fps and a low of 1045fps.

(https://i.imgur.com/JMetIYal.jpg?1)
Ten yards off hand five shots with the Beretta Nano

Using the Sig 229 the first round in the bare gel had a velocity of 1126fps and penetrated to 10.5 inches. The recovered diameter was .64 inches and the recovered weight of 114.8 grains. The second round had a velocity of 1111fps and penetrated to 11.5 inches, expanded to .62 inches and had a recovered weight of 115.4 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/P85YRSSl.jpg?1)

In the heavy clothed gel, the first round from the Sig had a velocity of 1124fps and penetrated to 16.5 inches. The recovered diameter was .54 inches and it had a recovered weight of 115.0 grains. The second bullet's velocity was 1134fps and penetrated to 18 inches. The recovered diameter was .40 inches and the weight was 115.3 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/XDB7EkJl.jpg?1)

Shooting the Nano in the bare gel the first round had a velocity 1075fps and penetrated to 16 inches. The bullet had a recovered diameter of .41 inches and weighted 114.8 grains. The second round also had a velocity of 1075fps and penetrated to 11.75 inches. The recovered diameter was .59 inches and the recovered weight was 115.2 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/DQy4JH6l.jpg?1)

(https://i.imgur.com/Q5YMsnLl.jpg?1)

Test Gun: Sig P229, Beretta Nano.
Barrel length: 3.9, 3 inches.
Ammunition: Remington 147gr JHP High Terminal Performance
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 895, 868fps
Gel Temperature 70 degrees.

Number ten and the last of the budget 9 stuff for a while. I'm not going to test the Geco Hexagon round. If I had of done some research before buying it, I would have noticed it wasn't intended as a self-defense round. This one is the Remington 147gr JHP High Terminal Performance round. It cost $15.99 for a 50 round box but is currently $14.99 from Target Sports.



I handloaded this bullet early on when I started testing and had the same results. I only bought this ammo to see if the factory loaded stuff was the same bullet they were selling to handloaders. Turns out it is and performs just as poorly and I was pushing my handload at around 1000fps IIRC.



I got a five shot average velocity of 895fps from the Sig with a high of 905fps and a low of 885fps.

(https://i.imgur.com/SQtLCY0l.jpg?1)
Ten yards off hand five shots with the Sig P229

From the Beretta Nano, I got a five shot velocity of 868fps with a high of 888fps and a low of 859fps.

(https://i.imgur.com/3XtjeQxl.jpg?1)
Ten yards off hand five shots with the Beretta Nano

This part is going to be short. I fired two rounds from the Sig 229 in bare gel and both failed to expand. The velocity of the two rounds was 900fps and 902fps and penetration of 22.75 inches and 23.25 inches.

(https://i.imgur.com/4DCUvDll.jpg?1)

(https://i.imgur.com/c4hLWZTl.jpg?1)

Test Gun: Sig P229, Kahr MK9.
Barrel length: 3.9, 3 inches.
Ammunition: Browning 147gr BXP X-Point
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 947, 907 fps
Gel Temperature 70 degrees.

On a recent trip to Cabela's, I walked through the ammunition section like I always do, and decided to pick up something new to try. One of them was the Browning 9mm 147gr BXP round. It comes in a 20 round box and it was priced at $17.99. 


From the Sig P229, I got an average velocity of 947fps with a high of 954fps and a low of 940fps. The Kahr MK9 gave me an average velocity of 907fps with a high of 913fps and a low of 902fps.

(https://i.imgur.com/Uurl3oLl.jpg?1)
Ten yards off hand five shots with the Sig P229

The first round from the Sig hit the bare gel block at 964fps and penetrated to 18.5 inches. The recovered expansion was .49 inches and it lost considerable weight coming in at 133.4 grains. Round number two had a velocity of 940fps and penetrated to 18.75 inches. Recovered weight was 144.2 grains and it expanded to .56 inches.

(https://i.imgur.com/Mz66mnil.jpg?1)

Shooting through the heavy clothing the Sig two rounds had a velocity of 956 and 934fps and both passed through both gel blocks.

From the Kahr, in bare gel, the first round had a velocity of 917fps and penetrated to 16.5 inches. The recovered diameter was .54 inches and the recovered weight was 144.8 grains. Round number two's velocity was 896fps and its penetration was 18 inches. The recovered weight was 136.8 grains and the diameter was .46 inches.

(https://i.imgur.com/00o0dH1l.jpg?2)

Thanks 5pins, as always, very informative : )

Ken

(https://i.imgur.com/9xSp4jvl.jpg?1)

Test Gun: Sig P226
Barrel length: 4.4 inches
Ammunition: Underwood 9mm 147gr Hard Cast, .40 S&W Hard Cast
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average:1085, 942fps
Gel Temperature 70 degrees.

The discussion of what to carry in the field seems to come up often on the various online forums. It normally revolves around the best caliber and load for bear protection. I would say most peoples first reaction if asked, is to pick a .44 magnum or some other large bore revolver. When talking about semi-auto pistols the 10mm is normally the default answer. The .45 ACP/ .45 Super is often brought up as a viable option to the 10mm and as we have seen in my past test with the right load it can perform very well. To a lesser extent, the option of the 9mm or .40 S&W will be considered.


With is in mine and after testing the Underwood Xtreme Penetrator I grab some hard cast loadings from Underwood. Two of them were the 9mm 147gr +P hard cast and the .40 S&W 200gr hard cast.

Underwood lists their hard cast bullets as a.

"Hi -Tek Coated Hard Cast Flat Nose 21 BHN".



"Hi-Tek coating allows you to enjoy the benefits of a hard-cast projectile and the cleanliness normally seen in copper jacketed/plated rounds.

Hi-Tek is a polymer based compound* that not only reduces fouling in your barrel, but also substantially reduces airborne lead contamination (allowing for use in some indoor ranges). The elimination of the wax lubrication combined with the reduced airborne lead contamination results in considerably less smoke produced with each shot. Hard cast flat nose bullets are non-expanding, powerfully penetrative
bullets that are designed with your woods defense needs in mind; whether fending off wild hogs or black bears, the hard cast flat nose bullets
are consistently effective in taking down any wild animals that you may encounter".

Both of these rounds were shot out of a Sig P226 with a 4.4-inch barrel.


Starting with the 9mm I got an average 5 shot velocity of 1085fps with a high of 1091fps and a low of 1081fps. This was 15fps lower than the advertised velocity of 1100fps. The recoil was very manageable and about what you would expect from a 9mm +P. The spent cases didn't appear to show any signs of excessive pressure when compared to the Winchester "white box" 124gr standard pressure. There were no malfunctions or failures with this round. 


With the .40 S&W, I got an average 5 shot velocity of 942fps with a high of 952fps and a low of 938fps. This was 58fps lower than the advertised velocity of 1000fps. Like the 9mm this load was very controllable. Spent cases didn't show any signs of excessive pressure when compared to the Federal 180gr HST loading. There were also no malfunctions or failures when shooting this round.

(https://i.imgur.com/L5LJ5Svl.jpg?1)
5 rounds offhand at 10 yards 9mm

(https://i.imgur.com/c7WODBal.jpg?1)
5 rounds offhand at 10 yards .40 S&W

(https://i.imgur.com/tMPIjz5l.jpg?2)
9mm case comparison

(https://i.imgur.com/lJNP7Wpl.jpg?2)
.40 S&W case comparison

So how will they perform in the gel? To find out I used the same set up I used with the Underwood Xtreme Penetrator testing. Four 16 inch blocks of Clear Gel for the two bare gel shots and two through the 20 gauge steel plate at 30 degrees.


Round one from the 9mm was shot int the upper left corner of the gel block and passed completely through the four gel blocks and was caught with the body armor placed at the end. The only other round to pass through all four blocks was the Double Tap 10mm 200gr FMJ. The velocity of the first round was 1074fps and the recovered weight was 147.1 grains. Round two in the bare gel was shot in the upper right-hand corner had a velocity of 1086fps and also pass through all four blocks of gel. The recovered weight was 146.4 grains

(https://i.imgur.com/nGbHWuFl.jpg?1)

Shooting the 9mm through the sheet metal the first round penetrated to 18.75 inches. Velocity was not recorded and the recovered weight was 137.1 grains. The second rounds velocity was 1091fps and it penetrated to 18.5 inches. The Recovered weight was 134 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/8iEAv9gl.jpg?1)

Now on to the .40 S&W. The first round in the bare gel had a velocity of 958fps and penetrated to 52 inches. The recovered weight was196.6 grains. Round two hit the bare gel blocks at a velocity of 959fps and penetrated to 52.5 inches. The recovered weight was also 196.6 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/LtFeokHl.jpg?1)

When shooting through the sheet metal the velocity of the first round was 955fps and penetrated to a depth of 17 inches. The recovered weight was 190.6 grains. The second round had a velocity of 959fps and penetrated to 16.25 inches. It's recovered weight was 188.4 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/rUkHpDcl.jpg?1)

If we compare these rounds to the 9mm and .40 S&W Xtreme Penetrators that the hard cast bullets in 9mm penetration completely went through all four blocks, 64 inches, of gel. The Xtreme 115gr penetrators went to 47 and 47.5 inches. That's around 17 inches or one complete block of gel. Through the sheet metal, the depths were much closer. The Underwood's hard cast went 18.5 and 18.75 inches to the Xtreme's 16.5 and 18 inches. Closer but the hard cast still beat the Xtreme Penetrators.


With the .40 S&W, the hard cast beat the Xtreme bullets by a large margin, 52 and 52.5 inches to the Xtreme's 22.5 and 23 inches. Through the sheet metal, the Xtreme proved to be the better penetrator with 17 and 18.5 inches compared to the hard cast 16.25 and 17. Better, but not by much.   

(https://i.imgur.com/4y1T367l.jpg?1)

http://www.general-cartridge.com/blog (http://www.general-cartridge.com/blog)

(https://i.imgur.com/34usmtfl.jpg?1)

Test Gun: Colt 1911.
Barrel length: 5 inches.
Ammunition: Underwood .45 ACP +P and .45 Super 255gr Hard Cast.
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 891, 1078fps
Gel Temperature 70 degrees.

The second installment of the Underwood hard cast woods load we take a look at the .45 ACP+P and the .45 Super. Both of these loads use the same 255gr hard cast Hi-Tek coated bullet.

I got a five shot average velocity of 891fps with a high of 902fps and low 888fps. Underwood lists their velocity of 925fps for this load.

(https://i.imgur.com/icN0h7Dl.jpg?1)
Ten yards offhand five shots .45 ACP +P

With the .45 Super load, I got an average velocity of 1078fps with a high of 1082fps and a low of 1073fps. The advertised velocity from Underwood for this load is 1075fps.

(https://i.imgur.com/jNzQDpNl.jpg?1)
Ten yards offhand five shots .45 Super

I used the same pistol with both of these loads even though the pistol is not set up for the Super round. I did have one failure to feed.

(https://i.imgur.com/n3pX0vSl.jpg)

The .45 ACP didn't show any sign of excessive pressure even though it's listed as +P. The .45 Super, on the other hand, flatted primers and primer flow into the firing pin hole.

(https://i.imgur.com/lWcp04vl.jpg?1)

Starting with the +P loading the first round had a velocity of 873fps and penetrated to 53.5 inches. The recovered weight was 247.8 grains. The second round hit the gel block at a velocity of 895fps and penetrated to 50 inches. It's recovered weight was 247.6 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/re3GIhll.jpg?1)

The first round through the sheet metal had a velocity of 906fps and penetrated to 21.25 inches. It's recovered weight was 247.6 grains. Round two had a velocity of 920fps and penetrated to 18.75 inches. The recovered weight of the second round was 249.3 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/rF7WlxPl.jpg?1)

With the Super load, the first round in the bare gel had a velocity of 1072fps and passed completely through all four gel blocks and was not recovered. I really didn't expect that much penetration so I didn't put a piece of body armor behind it. Learning from the first shot, I put the armor behind the last block and shot another round into the bare gel. It also passed through but bounced off the body armor and was found on the floor next to me. It's velocity was 1075fps and the recovered weight was 251.3 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/nkgQdt1l.jpg?1)

Through the angled sheet metal the first round had a velocity of 1059fps and penetrated to 28.5 inches. The recovered weight was 242.8 grains. The second round passed through the sheet metal at a velocity of 1061fps and exited the side of the block at the 24 inches mark.

(https://i.imgur.com/qZY7ypAl.jpg?1)

These loads exceeded my expectations by quite a bit. The .45 Super round is only the third round to pass completely through all 64 inches of gel. Sharing that title with the Underwood 147gr hard cast and the Double Tap 200gr FMJ 10mm.

The +P version was also the winner in the .45 ACP department with a max penetration of 53.5 inches, about 11 more inches then the next best, the Cutting Edge solid at just a little over 42 inches.

Wow, nice work as always, Thanks!

Ken

The results of the tests using the Remington 147gr HP is identical to what we've experienced for years using the Remington HP 115gr at max handloads. WE've used the 9mm with the Remington HPs forever it seems to dispatch varmints in snares. That's anything from a badger, coyote to a 600lb hog. Now I'm sure most of you have seen a rodeo, or at least you thought you've seen a rodeo. Try a 600lb feral hog on the end of an 8ft snare hooked by the snout. Everything within a 16ft circle will be shredded- cactus, trees, brush etc. Trust me, it's a rodeo!

(https://i.imgur.com/duyw122l.jpg)

Test Gun: Sig P229, Kahr MK9.
Barrel length: 3.9, 3 inches.
Ammunition: Winchester 147gr Defender Train & Defender.
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 906, 846 fps Defender / 909, 867 fps Train & Defend.
Gel Temperature 72 degrees.

About two mounts ago Shooting the Bull announced the winner of the 9mm ammo quest and picked the Winchester 147gr Train and Defend. Shortly afterword I was in a Cabala's and noticed they had both the Train and Defend as well as their 147gr Defender. At the store, I couldn't remember which of the two he picked so I bought a box of each. Looking at the box's the two looked identical aside from the difference in packing. The Defender did list a velocity of 1000fps as apposed to the Train and Defend at 950fps.

Examining the rounds side by side they look almost identical with maybe a small difference in the bullet when looking down into the hollowpoint.

(https://generalcartridge.files.wordpress.com/2019/08/steijvm.jpg?w=616)

Defender on the left and Train and Defend on the right.

(https://generalcartridge.files.wordpress.com/2019/08/zllzv9y.jpg?w=616)

Point of impact was very similar to each other also.

(https://generalcartridge.files.wordpress.com/2019/08/t0jd8fg.jpg?w=616)
Defender at 10 yards from the Sig P229

(https://generalcartridge.files.wordpress.com/2019/08/vlreb2x.jpg?w=616)
Train and Defend at 10 yards from the Sig P229

Starting with the Defender, I got an average five velocity of 906fps with the P229 with a high of 933 and a low of 894fps. From the MK9 the average velocity was 846fps with a high of 858 and a low of 838fps.

With the Train and Defend the P229 the five-shot average was 909fps with low of 925 and a low of 873fps. From the MK9 the average five-shot velocity was 867fps with a high of 894 and a low of 836fps.

This is interesting because the Defender round is supposed to have a higher velocity than the Train and Defend by 50fps but came in lower from both the P229 and the Mk9. The Train and Defend had an average velocity 3fps higher in the P229 and 21fps higher from the MK9. Nether made the velocity calmed by Winchester.

Shooting the first round of the Defender into the bare gel from the P229 the velocity was 911fps and penetrated to 19.5 inches. The recovered weight was 147.1 grains and it expanded to .54 inches. The second round hit the gel block at a velocity of 932fps and also penetrated to 19.5 inches. Recovered weight was 146.3 grains and it expanded to .53 inches.

(https://generalcartridge.files.wordpress.com/2019/08/dogeyfu.jpg?w=616)

Through the heavy clothing covered gel, I didn't get any velocity readings. The first round penetrated to 20.25 inches and expanded to .41 inches and had a recovered weight of 146.6 grains. The second round penetrated to 19.75 inches and weighed 146.6. When measured at the lead core of the bullet expansion was .49 inches. If measured at the largest point of the jacket "talons" it measured .63 inches.

(https://generalcartridge.files.wordpress.com/2019/08/zy9qc6s.jpg?w=616)

Only one shot was taken from the Mk9 into the bare gel. It penetrated to 18.5 inches and expanded to .50 inches at the lead core and .68 when measured to the talons. Recovered weight was 146.6 grains and no velocity was recorded.

(https://generalcartridge.files.wordpress.com/2019/08/smavavr.jpg?w=616)

With the Train and Defend the first round from the P229, into the bare gel, had a velocity of 930fps and penetrated to 20.5 inches with an expansion of .56 inches. The recovered weight was 146.7 grains. The second round also penetrated to 20.5 inches and had a recovered weight of 146.8 grains. The expansion was .55 inches and velocity was 925fps.

(https://generalcartridge.files.wordpress.com/2019/08/1wpsqf9.jpg?w=616)

Shooting the P229 through the heavy clothing the first round's velocity was 937fps and it expanded to .53 inches. Recovered weight was 146.6 grains and penetration was 20.5 inches. Round two had a velocity of 918fps and penetrated to 21 inches. Recovered weight was 146.6 grains and expansion was .54 inches.

(https://generalcartridge.files.wordpress.com/2019/08/fcim1bz.jpg?w=616)

The one round through the MK9, into the bare gel, had a velocity of 877fps and expanded to .41 inches when measured at the core, and .63 inches at the jacket. Penetration was 17 inches and recovered weight was 139.4 grains.

(https://generalcartridge.files.wordpress.com/2019/08/osomvoc.jpg?w=616)

(https://i.imgur.com/ySX1hgCl.jpg)

Test Gun: S&W M442
Barrel length: 1 7/8 inches.
Ammunition: Winchester .38 Spl 158gr LSWCHP.
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 778fps
Gel Temperature 74 degrees.

I didn't realize it but its been almost two years since I did a .38 Spl. test. While digging through some stuff today I came across a box of some Winchester 158gr LSWCHP's that I've for a few years now. It's been some time since I have carried a snub nose but when I did it was with this load(AKA the FBI load). I have owned this M442 for about 25 or so years and put thousands of rounds through it. But when I picked up my first sub-compact 9mm that all change and it's been at least 6 years since I have carried one.

If the truth is known I could never shoot well but sometimes it was necessary to have something a little smaller than my normal carry pice, a Glock 19. I guess what I'm trying to say is there is a reason the 5-yard group below sucks.

I got a five-shot average velocity of 778fps with a high of 786 and a low of 774fps.

(https://i.imgur.com/PUebBMYl.jpg)

The first round into the bare gel had a velocity of 775fps and penetrated to 20.5 inches. The expansion was .39 inches and recovered weight was 157.9 grains. Round two also penetrated to 20.5 inches and expanded to .38 inches with a recovered weight of 156.7 grains. Its velocity was 768fps.

(https://i.imgur.com/dI0uDvyl.jpg)

Through the covered gel, both rounds were clogged with the clothing and passed through both gel blocks and were found laying on the floor. The recovered weights were 157.6 and 157.7 grains. The velocity of the two rounds was 757 and 775fps. There was no expansion of either round.

(https://i.imgur.com/UTrmspPl.jpg)

Thanks Spins, good stuff!

Very nice!  Thanks!  8)

I don't know how many times someone said " try it with a 4 inch, a 4 inch, a 4 inch" Ok, here it is out of a 4-inch S&W 686 .357. Two round in bare and two in the clothed gel.

The first round in the bare gel had a velocity of 830fps and penetrated to 17.5 inches. The recovered diameter was .47 inches and the recovered weight was 157.1 grains. Round two's velocity was 824fps and penetrated to 17.25 inches. The recovered weight was 156.4 inches and expansion was also .47 inches.

(https://i.imgur.com/VSkxhiIl.jpg)

Through the heavy clothing, the first round's velocity was 812fps and it penetrated to 18 inches a recovered weight of 156.8 grains. Round two's velocity was 778fps and it's penetration was 26 inches and weighed 157 grains. Neither bullet showed any expansion.

(https://i.imgur.com/OCzuQUWl.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/dA0pvk3l.jpg)

Test Gun: Sig P229, Kahr MK9.
Barrel length: 3.9, 3 inches.
Ammunition: Hornady Custom 9mm 147gr XTP.
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 932, 884fps
Gel Temperature 76 degrees.

I'm sure just about everyone has heard of Hornady's XTP bullets and I have always found them to be good performers. They may not be the "best" but usually give deep penetration with modest expansion.

Shooting five rounds, from the Sig P229, gave me an average velocity of 932fps with a high of 938 and a low of 927fps.

(https://i.imgur.com/cm40Rzzl.jpg)
Five rounds at 10 yards

When shooting the Kahr Mk9, I got a five-shot average of 884fps with a high of 901 and a low of 873fps.

(https://i.imgur.com/vmJaIv4l.jpg)
Five rounds at 10 yards

Shooting the first round from the Sig P229, into the bare gel I got a velocity of 941fps with a penetration of 18 inches. The bullet had a recovered diameter of .54 inches and a recovered weight of 146.9 grains. The second bullet penetrated to 19.5 inches with a recovered diameter of .54 inches. The bullet's recovered weight was 144.1 grains and the velocity was 951fps.

(https://i.imgur.com/nunC0TMl.jpg)

When shooting through the heavy clothing, the first round form the P229 had a velocity of 944fps and penetrated to 21 inches. Its expansion was .49 inches and the recovered weight was 146.8 grains. The second round had a velocity of 936fps and penetrated to 23.75 inches. Recovered weight was 145.7 grains and it expanded to .48 inches.

(https://i.imgur.com/K0VPuowl.jpg)

Out of the Kahr Mk9, the first round's velocity was 892fps and it penetrated to 18 inches. The recovered weight was 146.8 inches and the recovered diameter was .51 inches. Round twos velocity was 900fps and its penetration was also 18 inches. It's recovered weight was 146.9 inches and its expansion was .53 inches.



https://generalcartridge.wordpress.com (https://generalcartridge.wordpress.com)

(https://i.imgur.com/Y0sahRql.jpg?1)

I remember back in the 80's reading about this round in one of the popular magazines of the time. The idea was that a heavy for caliber projectile traveling as a low velocity would be so unstable that it would tumble upon hitting its target. If I remember correctly the Britsh came up with the idea in their Webley MkIV .38 S&W 38/200 in 1922.

(https://i.imgur.com/mAI7xFJl.jpg)

The first record I could find of Western loading this round was in 1927 where it is listed in their 1927 price list. This load continued up until at least the 1981 Winchester-Western catalog. The round is described as a 200 lead inside lubricated Lubaloy bullet. Lubaloy is a thin, mostly copper, wash applied to the bullet.

I don't remember how I came to acquire this box of nine rounds but I have had it laying around for some time now. As near as I can tell it was produced in 1977 if the 77 stamped on the box flap is the date as I suspect it is.

At five yards it shot very well out of my S&W 442 Airweight or maybe I just got lucky. Recoil was about on par as a 148gr wadcutter but not as snappy.

(https://i.imgur.com/AqyZ3Q9l.jpg?1)

I only shot two rounds into some bare gel and only got the velocity off of the first round. Its velocity was 567fps and it penetrated to 18 inches. The permanent wound track showed no tumbling even though it was recovered base forward. The second round penetrated to about an inch more and also show no sign of tumbling and was recovered nose forward.

(https://i.imgur.com/U2qOjpOl.jpg?1)

An interesting round but other than the decent penetration probably not very effective.

(https://i.imgur.com/ib8nQsBl.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/0PrvAkTl.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Nu7RyTDl.jpg)

Test Gun: Sig P229, Kahr Mk9.
Barrel length: 3.9, 3 inches.
Ammunition: Ruger ARX 9mm 80gr +P
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 1411, 1323fps
Gel Temperature 73 degrees.

I have had this box of ammo for some time now and now that I decide to test them it looks like it's been discontinued. Part of the reason for waiting was trying to figure out how to evaluate them. Trying to evaluate them on the permanent wound damage in the gel is subjective and open to interpretation.

From the Sig P229, I got a five-shot average velocity of 1411fps with a high of 1421 and a low of 1403fps.

(https://i.imgur.com/bYpqOJzl.jpg)

With the Kahr, the five-shot average was 1323fps with a high of 1331 and a low of 1316fps. The recoil in both pistols was very mild.

From the Sig, the first round had a velocity of1420fps and penetrated to16.75 inches. The second round hit the block at 1416fps and went to a depth of 16 inches. The bullets had a recovered weight of 82.1 and 82.4 grains with no expansion. Both bullets were recovered base forward.

(https://i.imgur.com/Co6hB43l.jpg)

In the heavy clothing covered gel, the first round's velocity was 1452fps and its penetration was 16.5 inches. The second round had a velocity of 1436fps and penetrated to 15.75 inches. Recovered weight was 82.1 and 82.7 grains and no expansion. Both bullets were recovered base forward.

(https://i.imgur.com/xXktZeTl.jpg)

Out of the Kahr, the first round's velocity was 1309fps and it penetrated to a depth of 15.5 inches. Round two also penetrated to 15.5 inches with a velocity of 1331fps. Both bullets were recovered base forward with a weight of 82.6 and 82 grains, no expansion.

(https://i.imgur.com/oG6OwXMl.jpg)

I tried getting some decent pics of the tracks in the gel but as normal they are not so great. But they definitely showed much more permanent damage then ball. Most likely from tumbling. Not as much as you see with good hollow points but more then I expected.

(https://i.imgur.com/8LWcag1l.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/FxgYMWfl.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/vjTBVUBl.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/RqDAGmPl.jpg)

Test Gun: Sig P229, Kahr Mk9.
Barrel length: 3.9, 3 inches.
Ammunition: Speer 9mm 124gr GDHP
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 1104, 1044fps
Gel Temperature 70 degrees.

A few years ago I did a test of the Speer 124gr GDHP in +P and have been meaning to do the same in the standard pressure. I thought it could be an interesting comparison and see if the extra velocity makes any real-world difference.

With the three recorded shot out of the Glock 19, I got an average velocity of 1185fps. The penetration pf the two rounds in the bare gel was 14 and 14.5 inches of penetration. Bothe bullets expanded to .64 inches.
When the +P version was shot into the heavy clothing covered gel it's penetration was 19.25 and 17.25 inches with an expansion of .52 and .56 inches.

With the standard presser loading, I got an average velocity of 1104fps from the P229 with a high of 1112 and a low of 1093fps. From the Kahr MK9, the average velocity was 1044fps with a high of 1059 and a low of 1036fps.

(https://i.imgur.com/inSQe5Xl.jpg)
Five rounds off hand at ten yards, P229

The first round in the bare gel had a velocity of 1098fps and penetrated to 16 inches. The recovered diameter was .58 inches and the recovered weight was 124.1 grains. The second round's velocity was 1101fps and its expansion was .59 inches. It penetrated to 15.5 inches and weighed 124.7 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/bnpuYQDl.jpg)

In the heavy clothed gel, the first round had a velocity of 1105fps and its penetration was 17 inches. The recovered diameter was .53 inches and the recovered weight was 124.6 grains. Round two's velocity was 1099fps and it penetrated to 20 inches. The expansion was .56 inches and the recovered weight was 124.4 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/R9edH7cl.jpg)

The first round from the MK9 into the bare gel hit the block at 1033fps and penetrated to 15.5 inches with an expanded diameter of .56 inches. The recovered weight was 124.6 grains. The final round's velocity was 1048fps and it also penetrated to 15.5 inches. the recovered diameter was also .56 inches and the recovered weight was 123.9 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/JW8WgtYl.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/SqUrAiKl.jpg)

Test Gun: Smith and Wesson model 65. Barrel length: 3 inches.
Ammunition: Liberty's .357 Magnum 50gr Civil Defense.
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel. Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: fps 1796fps
Gel Temperature 70 degrees.

This is an interesting round that consists of 50gr all copper bullet with a large hollow point. The idea was the bullet would fragment early upon entering the target. The hollow part of the bullet breaks off into smaller pieces and radiates away from the main path of the bullet core which would then driver deeper in the target.

Using the S&W M65 I got an average velocity of 1796fps with a high of 1860 and a low of 1746fps. Liberty list this load's velocity of this round at 2100fps but doesn't list a barrel length. The point of impact was about 3 inches low at 10 yards.

(https://i.imgur.com/rv6LcVRl.jpg)
Five round offhand at 10 yards. Point of aim was at #3

The first round in the bare gel exited the top of the block at the 7.5 inches mark. No velocity was recorded and the bullet core was not recovered. The fragmenting portion of the bullet started at about the 2.5-inch mark and stopped at about the 3.5-inch mark. The weight of the fragments was 10.1 grains. The second round's velocity was 1786fps and the core penetrated to 16 inches. The fragmentation was 2 to 4 inches deep and the weight of the recovered fragments was 6.3 grains. The recovered weight of the core was 36.2 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/4AHi1yCl.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/zs9FuJyl.jpg)

In the covered gel, the first round had a velocity of 1716fps and the core penetrated to 12.5 inches and weighed 36.2 grains. The bullet fragments 2.5 to 3 inches and had a recovered weight of 16.8 grains. The second round's velocity was 1718fps and the bullet's core penetrated to 11 inches and weighed in at 36.3 grains. The fragments went from 2 to 2.5 inches and weighed 10.5 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/FWBz8Ppl.jpg)

The fragments from all loads spread from 2 to 3 inches from the main bullet path.

Thanks 5Pins!  Great info all the way around!

Was just looking at their 10mm / 60gr fragmental Ammo, WOW!, thanks again for your efforts

Ken


Civil Defense Ammunition Specifications:

   10mm Auto
Description:   Copper Monolithic, Hollow-Point, Fragmenting, Lead-Free, Personal Defense Round
Weight:   60 gr.
Velocity:   >2,400 FPS
Kinetic Energy:   >780 FPE
Accuracy:   >2" @ 25mtrs
Terminal Effect:   4 -1/2" W x 12" D

(https://i.imgur.com/JALzRV5l.jpg)

Test Gun: S&W M442
Barrel length: 1 7/8 inches.
Ammunition: Winchester .38 Spl 130gr +P PDX1 Bonded
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 846fps
Gel Temperature 71 degrees.

I got an average 5 shot average velocity of 846fps with a high of 871 and a low of 830fps.

(https://i.imgur.com/31GnZ30l.jpg)
Five rounds off-hand at 5 yards.

Round one in the bare gel had a velocity of 852fps and penetrated to 12.5 inches. The recovered diameter was .58 inches and the weight was 129.3 grains. The second round had a velocity of 835fps and penetrated to 13.5 inches. It's recovered weight was 128.2 grains and expansion was .59 inches.

(https://i.imgur.com/7L2szBul.jpg)

When shot through the heavy clothing the first round's velocity was not recorded. It didn't expand and the recovered weight was 129.5 and it penetrated to 22 inches. The second round also did not expand and penetrated to 18 inches. Its velocity was 797fps and the recovered weight was 129 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/y44tQQNl.jpg)

While reading this thread I find it interesting how many hollow points fail to open when fired through cloth.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: 38-40 on December 07 2019 08:58:44 AM MST
While reading this thread I find it interesting how many hollow points fail to open when fired through cloth.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The heavily clothing & multiply layers can be very challenging to traditional hollow points, even more so for the slower moving varieties and calibers. 

(https://i.imgur.com/ywV1zf0l.jpg)

Test Gun: Sig P229, Kahr Mk9.
Barrel length: 3.9, 3 inches.
Ammunition: Liberty's 9mm +P 50gr Civil Defense
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 2026fps Sig
Gel Temperature 70 degrees.

Following on the heels of the .357 Civil Defense, I tried the 9mm version of it. This bullet appears to be the same as the .357 loading but in this case with a little more velocity. More then likely the velocity difference is to do to the barrel length difference.

From the Sig P229, I got an average 5 shot velocity of 2026fps with a high of 2041 and a low of 2008fps. The point of aim point of impact was much better than with the .357.

(https://i.imgur.com/r5l5013l.jpg)

The first round out of the Sig P229 had a velocity of 2052fps. Fragments were recovered from the 3.5 to 5.5-inch range. The bullet core penetrated to 10.25 inches and had a recovered weight of 27 grains. The weight of the recovered fragments was 17.9 grains. The second round's velocity was 2040fps and the bullet fragmented at 3.5 to 4.5 inches. The bullets core was recovered at 11.75 inches and weighed 29 grains. The recovered fragment's weight was 22 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/9kwSa4il.jpg)

When shooting through heavy clothing the first round hit the block at 2043fps. The bullet's fragmentation started at 2.5 inches and continued to the 4-inch mark. The bullet core penetrated to 11.75 inches and had a recovered weight of 29.3 grains. The recovered fragment's weight was 16.6 grains. The second round had a velocity of 2058fps and the core penetrated to 10.25 inches. Fragmentation was 3.5 to 4.5 inches. The total weight of the fragments was 17.9 grains and the core was 27 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/6aa8Vjhl.jpg)

When fired through the Kahr MK9 the first round had a velocity of 1890fps and began fragmenting at 3.25 inches and continued to 4.5 inches. The core penetrated to 10.5 inches and had a recovered weight of 29.5 grains. The second round's velocity was 1870fps and its fragmentation was 3.5 to 4 inches. The total weight of the fragments was 22.2 grains. The core penetrated to 11.25 inches and its weight was 27.3 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/CKNhlOEl.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/YyuP0oZl.jpg)

Impressive...Thanks man!

(https://i.imgur.com/7IJmWJPl.jpg)

Test Gun: Sig P229.
Barrel length: 3.9 inches.
Ammunition: Cor Bon .357 Sig 125gr JHP
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel. Distance: 10 feet. Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2. Five shot velocity average: 1397fps
Gel Temperature 70 degrees.

It's been a long time since I used Cor Bon ammo. Back in the late '80s, it was my load of choice in the 9mm. A lot has changed since then and ammo today is no exception. At the time their 115gr JHP +P was the cats meow so to speak. If my chronograph at the time was to be believed I was getting almost 1300fps out of my Glock 19.

This test was the first time I have shot any Cor Bon in forever but I decided to pick up some in my recent ammo buying spree. It's also been a while since I tested any .357 Sig, so I got it in that caliber. As we will see, it was unfortunately wrought with problems.

I got a five-shot average velocity of 1397fps with a high of 1493 and a low of 1355fps. That's a 138fps extreme spread.

(https://i.imgur.com/5Inn81il.jpg)
Five shot at ten yards offhand.

When picking up the fired cases I noticed that one of the cases had blown a primer. At that point, I decided to check every case as it came out of the gun.

(https://i.imgur.com/tEdOGLKl.jpg)

The first round across the chronograph had a velocity of 1335fps, and when I picked up the case it had a noticeable crack around it about midway up the case. It was also visible on the inside of the case as well.

(https://i.imgur.com/aw6OZszl.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/DBDuRRkl.jpg)

At this point, a smarter man would have stopped, but I'm not a smarter man and decided to move forward. There were no other blown primers or cracked cases for the rest of the four rounds.

The first round into the bare gel had a velocity of 1410fps and penetrated to 16 inches. The recovered weight was 91 grains and it expanded to .48 inches. Round two. Wait, what happened to round two. The round would not chamber and I discovered the previous round had a case head separation and the front portion was still in the chamber. I tried to find the case from the first shot before loading the second but I couldn't. I finally found the back portion the case after looking some more.

(https://i.imgur.com/eJBGvRcl.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/fT3bV1Ml.jpg)

At this point, I became a smarter man and stopped. After getting the front half of the case out of the chamber I fired 20 rounds of some Sig FMJ and a few Sig V-Crown I had left over. There was no blown primes or cracked cases.

(https://i.imgur.com/xH7c9Ccl.jpg)

Test Gun: Ruger LCP
Barrel length: 2.75 inches.
Ammunition: Fiocchi .380 ACP 90gr XTP
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 808fps
Gel Temperature 70 degrees.

Shooting the bull on YouTube did an in-depth test on .380 ammo and concluded that the XTP bullet performed the best. I have been meaning to do my testing with this bullet and finally got around to it. I picked up some Fiocchi .380 ammo featuring Hornaday's XTP bullet.

I got a five-shot average velocity of 808fps with a high of 828fps and a low of 790fps.

(https://i.imgur.com/0W232pml.jpg)
Five rounds offhand at 5 yards.

The first round shot in the clear gel had a velocity of 817fps and penetrated to 12.5 inches. The recovered diameter was .45 inches and weight was 89.9 grains. Round two's velocity was 795fps and the bullet penetrated to 13 inches. The recovered diameter of the bullet was .44 inches and its weight was 90.5 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/HCHu5iil.jpg)

When shot through the heavy clothing gel neither round expanded. The first round had a velocity of 784fps and penetrated to 17.5 inches. The recovered weight was 89.9 grains. The second round's velocity was 792fps and it penetrated to a depth of 16.5 inches. It's recovered weight was 90.4 grains. The second round showed signs of beginning to open up.

(https://i.imgur.com/AYfWqqPl.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/zTFELRxl.jpg)

Test Gun: Beretta 70
Barrel length: 3.5 inches.
Ammunition: Hornady .32 ACP 60gr XTP
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 800fps
Gel Temperature 70 degrees.

A new caliber I thought some would be interested in seeing. While the .32 ACP has largely been overshadowed by the .380 there still some people who may consider it as a carry round.

I got a five-shot average velocity of 800fps with a high of 838 and a low of 718fps. Shoots a little low at 5 yards. The one round out of the group was a called flyer.

(https://i.imgur.com/qNbqwUul.jpg)
Five rounds offhand at 5 yards.

The first round in the bare gel had a velocity of 780fps and penetrated to 12.25 inches. The recovered weight was 59.9 grains and there was no expansion, It tried to expand but didn't quite make it. Round number two had a velocity of 726fps and penetrated to 20 inches. Odd I know but that's what it did. Again, there was no expansion and the recovered weight was 60 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/KCSNjA9l.jpg)

In case you can't Guess there was no expansion with either of the rounds in the clothed covered gel. The first round had a velocity of 764fps and it penetrated to 14 inches, the recovered weight was 60.1 grains. The second round was very similar and had a velocity of 832fps and penetrated to 13.5 inches with a weight of 60.1 grains also.

(https://i.imgur.com/MDZp9qZl.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/r7Hp29Jl.jpg)

Test Gun: FN Baby Browning
Barrel length: 2.11 inches.
Ammunition: Hornady .25 ACP 35gr FTX Critical Defense.
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 767fps
Gel Temperature 70 degrees.

This should probably be called "friends don't let friends carry a 25". I was able to borrow an FN Baby Browning to test some .25 Auto. This gun is little and I mean little. I don't see how you could make a pistol any smaller and still have any practicality at all. The size and almost non-existence sights make it very hard to shoot well.

I got a five-shot average velocity of 767fps with a high of 791fps and a low of 752fps.

(https://i.imgur.com/Q2Sdh6Fl.jpg)
Five shots offhand at five yards

The first round in the bare gel had a velocity of725fps and penetrated to 12.25 inches. There was not expansion and the recovered weight was 35.1 grains. The second round's velocity was 777fps and it penetrated to 9.75 inches. The hollow point deformed but did not expand over its original size. The recovered weight was 35 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/JDU4g1Pl.jpg)

When shot in the gel-covered with the heavy clothing the first round had a velocity of 801fps and it penetrated to 12.25 inches. There was not expansion and the recovered weight was 35.1 grains. The last round penetrated to 9.5 inches with no expansion. Its recovered weight was 35.1 grains also and there was not a velocity reading.

(https://i.imgur.com/x5aAfiwl.jpg)

I'm going to try and wrap this up tomorrow and return the pistol. Next will be the Hornady 35gr XTP and then some Fiocchi FMJ.

(https://i.imgur.com/BKq205Xl.jpg)

Test Gun: FN Baby Browning
Barrel length: 2.11 inches.
Ammunition: Hornady .25 ACP 35gr XTP.
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 751fps
Gel Temperature 70 degrees.

In this test of the .25 ACP I tried out the Hornady 35gr XTP.

I got a five-shot average velocity of 751fps with a high of 791fps and a low of 714fps. I had one failure to feed when shooting the five-shot group and it set the bullet back. So I ended up with a 4 shot group.

(https://i.imgur.com/dt7Ej9Zl.jpg)
Four shots at five yards offhand.

The first shot in the bare gel had a velocity of 805fps and penetrated to 10.5 inches. I actually got some expansion with this bullet at .31 inches. The recovered weight was 34.8 grains. The second round's velocity was 729fps and it penetrated to 16.25 inches. There was no expansion and the recovered weight was 34.8 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/fcKNgnMl.jpg)

The two bullets in the heavy clothing gel had no expansion and both penetrated to 10 inches. The first bullet's velocity was 765fps and the second was 725fps. Weight of the two bullets was 34.7 and 34.8 grains.

(https://i.imgur.com/CdadMwtl.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/6rK0tOtl.jpg)

Test Gun: FN Baby Browning
Barrel length: 2.11 inches.
Ammunition: Fiocchi .25 ACP 50gr FMJ.
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 654fps
Gel Temperature 70 degrees.

This will more than likely be the last .25 test I will do. Unless I see something in the future to change my mind, I just don't see the point.


I got a five-shot average velocity of 654fps with a high of 687fps and a low of 624fps.

(https://i.imgur.com/kBdMcBDl.jpg)
Five shots at five yards offhand.

The two round's in the bare gel had a velocity of 693fps and 642fps. Penetration was 12.25 and 11.5 inches. 50 and 49.9 grains were the recovered weight and just in case you were wondering there was no expansion. The first round showed sign of tumbling about midway through and stopped base first. The second round did not show and signs of tumbling and was recovered nose forward.

(https://i.imgur.com/fnF7rv1l.jpg)

In the heavy clothing gel, the first round's velocity was 671fps and it penetrated to 9.25 inches. The second round hit the block at 674fps and penetrated to 9.5 inches. Neither bullet expanded and the recovered weight was 49.6 and 49.3 grains. Both bullets showed signs of tumbling at the mid point and were recovered base forward.

(https://i.imgur.com/eCsG4Ccl.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/W5INO0Bl.jpg)

Test Gun: 1911
Barrel length: 5 inches.
Ammunition: Cor Bon .38 Super 125gr +P JHP.
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 1290fps
Gel Temperature 70 degrees.

https://generalcartridge.wordpress.com/2020/01/15/cor-bon-38-super-125gr-p-jhp-in-clear-ballistics-gel/ (https://generalcartridge.wordpress.com/2020/01/15/cor-bon-38-super-125gr-p-jhp-in-clear-ballistics-gel/)

(https://i.imgur.com/IYqsRd1l.jpg)

Test Gun: Ruger LCP
Barrel length: 2.75 inches.
Ammunition: Federal .380 ACP 99gr HST.
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 967fps
Gel Temperature 70 degrees.

https://generalcartridge.wordpress.com/2020/01/31/federal-380-acp-99gr-hst-in-clear-ballistics-gel/ (https://generalcartridge.wordpress.com/2020/01/31/federal-380-acp-99gr-hst-in-clear-ballistics-gel/)

(https://i.imgur.com/JFq0FeNl.jpg)

Test Gun: Beretta 70
Barrel length: 3.5 inches.
Ammunition: Cor Bon .32 ACP 60gr JHP
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 1190fps.
Gel Temperature 70 degrees.

https://general-cartridge.com/2020/01/31/cor-bon-32-acp-60gr-jhp-in-clear-ballistics-gel/ (https://general-cartridge.com/2020/01/31/cor-bon-32-acp-60gr-jhp-in-clear-ballistics-gel/)

(https://i.imgur.com/H9tkMzHl.jpg)

Test Gun: Colt 1911.
Barrel length: 5 inches.
Ammunition: Montana Bullet Works .45 ACP 230gr and 250gr Hard Cast.
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 947, 860fps
Gel Temperature 70 degrees.

https://general-cartridge.com/2020/02/05/montana-bullet-works-45-cal-230-and-250-grain-hard-cast-in-45acp-handload/ (https://general-cartridge.com/2020/02/05/montana-bullet-works-45-cal-230-and-250-grain-hard-cast-in-45acp-handload/)

5Pins, I wish you could measure the powder charge weights and show a picture of the powder.
It would be great to lean what is being used in the cartridges you're testing!
Thanks for you posted results!

That's not a bad idea maybe I should.

Thanks 5Pins, have learned a great deal from your efforts

Ken

(https://i.imgur.com/TXiIN0Zl.jpg)

Test Gun: Smith & Wesson Model 65
Barrel length: 3 Inches
Ammunition: Prograde .357 Magnum 200gr Hard Cast.
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 1097fps
Gel Temperature: 71

https://general-cartridge.com/2020/03/19/prograde-357-magnum-200gr-hard-cast-bear-grade-in-clear-ballistics-gel/ (https://general-cartridge.com/2020/03/19/prograde-357-magnum-200gr-hard-cast-bear-grade-in-clear-ballistics-gel/)

(https://i.imgur.com/es8hsxil.jpg)

Test Gun: Colt 1911 Government, Defender.
Barrel length: 5 and 3 inches.
Ammunition: Winchester .45 ACP 185gr Silvertip JHP .
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 993, 902fps
Gel Temperature 70 degrees.

https://general-cartridge.com/2020/03/21/winchester-45-acp-185gr-silvertip-jhp-in-clear-ballistics-gel/ (https://general-cartridge.com/2020/03/21/winchester-45-acp-185gr-silvertip-jhp-in-clear-ballistics-gel/)

(https://i.imgur.com/kCQ3Q8Xl.jpg)

Test Gun: Webley Mk V Revolver.
Barrel length: 6 inches.
Ammunition: Kynoch .455 Mark VI 265gr FMJ.
Test media: 10% Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 559fps
Gel Temperature 72 degrees.

https://general-cartridge.com/2020/04/07/loose-rounds-webley-455-mk-vi-265gr-fmj-in-clear-ballistics-gel/ (https://general-cartridge.com/2020/04/07/loose-rounds-webley-455-mk-vi-265gr-fmj-in-clear-ballistics-gel/)

(https://generalcartridge.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/20200424_161752-e1587764883808.jpg?w=840)

Test Gun: Sig P320, P365
Barrel length: 3.9, 3 inches.
Ammunition: Federal 9mm 124gr Hydra-Shok
Test media: 10% Vyse Ballistics Gel, Clear Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 1027, 981fps
BB Calibration: 3.25 inches.

https://general-cartridge.com/2020/04/28/federal-9mm-124gr-hydra-shok-in-vyse-ballistic-gel/ (https://general-cartridge.com/2020/04/28/federal-9mm-124gr-hydra-shok-in-vyse-ballistic-gel/)

(https://generalcartridge.files.wordpress.com/2020/06/20200601_163744-e1591052842561.jpg?w=840)

Test Gun: Beretta 70
Barrel length: 3.5 inches.
Ammunition: Federal .32 ACP 65gr Hydra-Shok JHP
Test media: 10% Vyse Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 917fps.
BB Calibration: 4 inches.

https://general-cartridge.com/2020/06/02/federal-32-acp-65gr-hydra-shok-jhp-in-vyse-ballistics-gel/ (https://general-cartridge.com/2020/06/02/federal-32-acp-65gr-hydra-shok-jhp-in-vyse-ballistics-gel/)

Quote from: 5pins on June 02 2020 10:15:10 PM MDT
(https://generalcartridge.files.wordpress.com/2020/06/20200601_163744-e1591052842561.jpg?w=840)

Test Gun: Beretta 70
Barrel length: 3.5 inches.
Ammunition: Federal .32 ACP 65gr Hydra-Shok JHP
Test media: 10% Vyse Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 917fps.
BB Calibration: 4 inches.

https://general-cartridge.com/2020/06/02/federal-32-acp-65gr-hydra-shok-jhp-in-vyse-ballistics-gel/ (https://general-cartridge.com/2020/06/02/federal-32-acp-65gr-hydra-shok-jhp-in-vyse-ballistics-gel/)

The unfired rounds and the expanded bullets do not look like traditional hydra shoks. These look like a cross between and a hydra shok and a gold dot? They look plated like the gold dots opposed to the traditional copper jacket. Any insight on this?

Yes, they do appear to be plated similar to the Gold Dot. Not surprising when you consiter thet Speer and Federal are part of the same company.

Absolutely, I interviewed for an IT position at Vista Outdoor a couple of years ago, a very impressive facility, to bad they didn't want to pay more 😀

Quote from: 5pins on July 15 2020 08:39:05 AM MDT
Yes, they do appear to be plated similar to the Gold Dot. Not surprising when you consiter thet Speer and Federal are part of the same company.

After seeing these, the hydra shok has probably been one of the most loved and hated ammo lines, its been around a long time. But for some reason I'd like to see the plated hydra shok in the more common calibers for some reason lol, seems like an interesting mash up!

(https://generalcartridge.files.wordpress.com/2020/07/20200717_162622.jpg?w=840)

Test Gun: Ruger LCP
Barrel length: 2.75 inches.
Ammunition: Federal .380 ACP 99gr Hydra-Shok Deep.
Test media: 10% Vyse Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 873fps
BB Calibration: 3.5 inches.

https://general-cartridge.com/2020/07/30/federal-380-acp-99gr-hydra-shok-deep-in-vyse-ballistics-gel/ (https://general-cartridge.com/2020/07/30/federal-380-acp-99gr-hydra-shok-deep-in-vyse-ballistics-gel/)

(https://generalcartridge.files.wordpress.com/2022/03/20220325_085050.jpg?w=840)

Test Gun: Sig P320, P365
Barrel length: 3.9, 3 inches.
Ammunition: Winchester USA Ready Defense Ammunition 9mm Luger +P 124 Grain Hex-Vent Jacketed Hollow Point (RED9HP)
Test media: 10% Vyse Ballistics Gel
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 1201, 1139 fps
BB Calibration: 3.25 inches.

https://general-cartridge.com/2022/03/29/winchester-9mm-124gr-p-hex-vent-in-vyse-ballistic-gel/ (https://general-cartridge.com/2022/03/29/winchester-9mm-124gr-p-hex-vent-in-vyse-ballistic-gel/)

(https://generalcartridge.files.wordpress.com/2022/05/20220512_154629.jpg?w=840)

Test Gun: Ruger LCP
Barrel length: 2.75 inches.
Ammunition: Underwood .380 ACP 90gr +P XTP (Item 141)
Test media: 10% Vyse Ballistics Gel.
Distance: 10 feet.
Chronograph: Caldwell Ballistic Precision Chronograph G2.
Five shot velocity average: 1036fps
BB Calibration two shots: 4 and 3.75 inches.

https://general-cartridge.com/2022/11/05/underwood-380-acp-90gr-p-xtp-in-vyes-ballistics-gel/