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10mm Ammuntion => Factory 10mm ammo => Topic started by: The_Shadow on July 06 2012 08:29:36 AM MDT

Title: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: The_Shadow on July 06 2012 08:29:36 AM MDT
This is a scan of Cartridges Of The World 5th edition...10mm
(https://s20.postimg.cc/i576z0rfh/10mmcartridgesoftheworld.jpg)

10mm performance levels from Mild to Wild...
(https://s20.postimg.cc/ntdhpx3hp/10mm_Performance.jpg)

(https://s20.postimg.cc/ge427ylst/10mm_SAAMI_Spec.jpg)
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History & Specifcations
Post by: The_Shadow on July 06 2012 08:41:50 AM MDT
Cartridge and chamber specs can be found here...
http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Pistol/10mm%20Automatic.pdf (http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC_Drawings/Pistol/10mm%20Automatic.pdf)

Pressure testing info...
http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/205.pdf (http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/205.pdf)

Example of 205 10mm pressure MAP
The specific loads of the test have to fit the MAP set by SAAMI.

Here is a typical MAP as set by SAAMI
Nominal Mean Instrument @ 15 feet with =/-90 fps from test barrel
Maximum Adverage pressure MAP of 37500 psi
Maximum Portable Lot Mean MPLM of 38700 psi
Maximum Portable Sample Mean MPSM of 40500 psi

The ammunition in test (10 rounds) would need to fit this established profile.

Nothing in the sample over 40500 psi

Here is something to consider...The pizoelectric transducer system employs the transducer flush mounted inside the chamber of the test barrel. Pressures developed by the expanding gases to the cartridge walls causing the transducer to deflect creating a measuerable electrical charge. This change is then converted to a pressure reading in psi.

Systems being sold are being used on the outside of the chamber of the test barrel. The expanding cartridge is not directly acting upon the transducer as in the SAAMI testing.

Proof Pressures for 10mm are 130% minimum and 140% maximum as set by SAAMI
The formula is based on the Maximum Portable Lot Mean MPLM of 38,700 psi
38,700 x 1.30 = 50,310 psi  and 38,700 x 1.40 = 54,180 psi
Minimum and Maximum
50,310 psi - 54,180 psi  these would be rounded to 50,500 psi - 54,000 psi
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: sqlbullet on July 06 2012 08:56:48 AM MDT
Good info.  Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: nickE10mm on July 06 2012 10:33:44 AM MDT
Good stuff here, thanks Shadow   8)
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: REDLINE on July 06 2012 06:20:17 PM MDT
Great info!  Thanks for posting.
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: The_Shadow on July 06 2012 07:55:23 PM MDT
Thanks, please look up at the 2nd post I added the SAAMI pressure map of 10mm as stated in Pub. # 205.
Does anyone have the Quick Loads Software?
If yes...then maybe we could run some models like this one for given data powder specific.  We could actually post that in the "Reloading Section"

Just as a reference for the 9.4 grain LongShot load that I tested here is a screen shot of the Quick Load program which a friend has run for me so I will share it here...

(https://s20.postimg.cc/vm45hwowb/Hodgdon_Long_Shot.jpg)

As you can see the pressure is shown above that of the SAAMI MAP for 10mm. I don't know exactly how accurate the data is, but the 58,823 psi was the predicted peak.
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: REDLINE on July 06 2012 08:02:44 PM MDT
Quote from: The_Shadow on July 06 2012 07:55:23 PM MDT
Thanks, please look up at the 2nd post I added the SAAMI pressure map of 10mm as stated in Pub. # 205.

Check.
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: REDLINE on July 06 2012 08:14:04 PM MDT
Quote from: The_Shadow on July 06 2012 07:55:23 PM MDT
Just as a reference for the 9.4 grain LongShot load that I tested here is a screen shot of the Quick Load program which a friend has run for me so I will share it here...

(https://s20.postimg.org/vm45hwowb/Hodgdon_Long_Shot.jpg)

As you can see the pressure is shown above that of the SAAMI MAP for 10mm. I don't know exactly how accurate the data is, but the 58,823 psi was the predicted peak.
Interesting.  200gr XTP...9.4gr Longshot...I'm probably blind but don't see what primer was used...equaling peak psi of 58,823.  Not sure what to think, just that it seems like too high of a peak for that load even at a COL of 1.250".  I really don't know, but just don't see that load hitting any more than 50,000 psi, and more than likely less.  Do you know what primer was used?  If it wasn't anything more than a standard large pistol, and the case wasn't roll crimped into the bullet, I'm just not seeing it.

Anybody got some pressure testing equipment? 8)
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: The_Shadow on July 08 2012 02:30:55 PM MDT
I am not familure with the software, nor do I have the QuickLoads program.  A person from one of the forums plugged in the data for the load, then e-mailed this copy of the screen shot.   I don't know if the program allows for different primer imput.  As to the accuracy, I have no way of knowing...however this data was based off loads that I have personally loaded, tested and were the same as sold by SwampFox ammo.

In my test of the 200gr XTP over 9.4 grains of LS, I used the CCI350 and saw 1260 fps from the 5" S&W

If this data is truely showing 58,823 psi and is anywhere close to that level in the real loads, then the 10.0 grain loads used in the 200gr XTP @ 1325 fps would actually be higher... :o
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: REDLINE on July 08 2012 03:32:01 PM MDT
Quote from: The_Shadow on July 08 2012 02:30:55 PM MDT
I am not familure with the software, nor do I have the QuickLoads program.  A person from one of the forums plugged in the data for the load, then e-mailed this copy of the screen shot.   I don't know if the program allows for different primer imput.  As to the accuracy, I have no way of knowing...however this data was based off loads that I have personally loaded, tested and were the same as sold by SwampFox ammo.

In my test of the 200gr XTP over 9.4 grains of LS, I used the CCI350 and saw 1260 fps from the 5" S&W

If this data is truely showing 58,823 psi and is anywhere close to that level in the real loads, then the 10.0 grain loads used in the 200gr XTP @ 1325 fps would actually be higher... :o

Talking out loud.....SAAMI Maximum Average Proof Pressure (ONLY EVER for the development of new gun platforms by new gun manufacturers, and NEVER for general ammo to be loaded to) is listed as 54,000psi......SAAMI Maximum Probable Lot Mean (the PSI of which NO load meant to be at Maximum Average Pressure should ever exceed) is listed as 38,700psi......Glock 10mm barrels have very poor 6 o'clock chamber support.......you have accomplished 9.4gr of Longshot, in conjunction with a magnum primer no less, without catastrophic failure in a S&W platform.......old man Willard (may he RIP) according to his claims sold 200gr XTP loads with 10.0gr of Longshot to the open-market with the stipulation of aftermarket barrels better supported in the 6 o'clock position needing to be used and 22 lb spring (per the link you put up in "180gr bullets over Longshot")........and QuickLoad says 58,823psi for 9.4gr loads with a 200gr XTP.........I don't know, but DEFINATELY a stretch for my mind to go with QuickLoad's calculations.  Big stretch!  Who knows. ::)
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: The_Shadow on July 08 2012 03:59:38 PM MDT
Mike of SwampFox used an 8" pressure testing barrel and had mentioned the pressures of those loads to be inside the SAAMI spec.  As for the 10.0 grain load I read where he mentioned that pressure to be 1000-1500 psi higher than the 37,500 psi but the still sort of fit the MAP. (his words and testing)  Personally, I stopped at 9.4 grains of LongShot with the 200 XTP's based on my testing with my guns.

He had made notes of the use of aftermarket barrels, barrels longer that 4.6" and using 22lb springs for best results...
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: REDLINE on July 08 2012 04:03:38 PM MDT
I guess the bottom line to all this quickload stuff is that quickload is probably wrong, buuuuut we'll never know.
Title: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: Bro KV on July 09 2012 12:06:40 AM MDT
How much does QuickLOAD cost
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: sqlbullet on July 09 2012 12:40:18 PM MDT
It costs about $800 as I recall, and is Windows only.

And, as I recall, internal ballistics is one of those areas where lots of empirical testing still occurs because there are more variables than can be easily accounted for.  Even what are nominally small changes in the chamber can have a big impact on results.

I have read that quickloads case capacity values are always minimum to account for thicker brass and it's impact.  This could certainly account for the difference between these readings and what Mike had with his pressure barrel.
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: The_Shadow on July 09 2012 12:54:42 PM MDT
Read about the sowtware I put the link in the reloading/handloading section http://10mm-firearms.com/reloading-10mm-ammo/quick-loads-software/ (http://10mm-firearms.com/reloading-10mm-ammo/quick-loads-software/)
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: 475/480 on July 11 2012 09:44:41 AM MDT
I have Quickload and will run some of the handloads off my 4 barrels/3 guns post in the handload forum.

Sean
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: REDLINE on July 13 2012 05:42:24 PM MDT
Quote from: 475/480 on July 11 2012 09:44:41 AM MDT
I have Quickload and will run some of the handloads off my 4 barrels/3 guns post in the handload forum.

Sean

That will be great!  Would definately like to see more of its guestimations and how they play out with the pressure signs you see from shooting.
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: sqlbullet on July 14 2012 08:01:29 AM MDT
I priced pressure barrels the other day.  The barrel itself wasn't that bad at about $350.  You would still need an action to put it in, and to instrument it up.  I bet you could build one for about $700.  That would be great to pair up with quickload and observations like case head expansion.  Then we could get out own idea about what factory loads are doing, as well as develop more consistent handloads.
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: The_Shadow on July 14 2012 08:20:21 AM MDT
sqlbullet, did you have a particular link for the pressure barrels?  ???
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: sqlbullet on July 14 2012 08:28:06 AM MDT
Krieger test barrels (http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/Test_Barrels-c1246-wp2557.htm).  Pricing starts at $340.00 and goes up.
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: The_Shadow on July 14 2012 09:22:47 AM MDT
Thanks, Using that system would be better than those which use the strain gauge wrapped around the out side of a barrel.  The SAAMI test uses a strain gauge inside in contact with the casing from what I read.  The straing gauge maybe a pistol type?
???

I did come up with this company that makes the pressure transducers said to be what SAAMI uses.
http://www.pcb.com/TM_Pressure.asp (http://www.pcb.com/TM_Pressure.asp)

This site also has some good info and interesting readings
http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/2011/01/testing-firearms-measuring-chamber.html (http://firearmshistory.blogspot.com/2011/01/testing-firearms-measuring-chamber.html)
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: REDLINE on July 14 2012 02:31:42 PM MDT
Quote from: sqlbullet on July 14 2012 08:01:29 AM MDT
I priced pressure barrels the other day.  The barrel itself wasn't that bad at about $350.  You would still need an action to put it in, and to instrument it up.  I bet you could build one for about $700.  That would be great to pair up with quickload and observations like case head expansion.  Then we could get out own idea about what factory loads are doing, as well as develop more consistent handloads.

That would be awesome! 8)
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: The_Shadow on August 15 2012 02:05:47 PM MDT
I added a copy of a chart of ammo performance levels to the intro sheet.  As we review these some of the numbers have been safely exceeded on the upper end!   ;D
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: The_Shadow on November 09 2012 07:36:14 AM MST
This may also be of intrest for those seeking info about pressure testing equipment...
http://www.ketmer.com/hsp/testing/index.htm (http://www.ketmer.com/hsp/testing/index.htm)

They also make quality barrels to very exacting tollerances.
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: REDLINE on November 09 2012 06:26:36 PM MST
H-S Precision manufactures top notch test recievers/barrels/fixtures too.

https://www.hsprecision.com/shop2/ballistics.html (https://www.hsprecision.com/shop2/ballistics.html)
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: RRMan03 on February 24 2013 12:36:31 AM MST
My real Winchester Subsonic 180gr JHP FBI load says 950-980 on the box. It is really FBI Lite. This was the LE only ammo. No retail sales.
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: The_Shadow on July 28 2013 10:01:57 AM MDT
For those who don't know...Bren-Ten.com http://nordicg3k.tripod.com/website/ (http://nordicg3k.tripod.com/website/)
This website has a great culmination of information relative to many things with respect to 10mm firearms and history.
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: Rome on August 16 2013 01:54:01 AM MDT
I love this info!
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: The_Shadow on October 11 2013 12:39:26 PM MDT
The Ammo that started it all...Norma 10mm Auto as loaded for Dornaus & Dixon's then "NEW" Bren Ten

Norma actually produced three factory loads for the 10mm...MADE BY FFV NORMA AB – S-670 40 AMOTFORS - SWEDEN
200gr JTC @ 1200fps    Norma Ref #11001   (later reduction to 1180 fps and 1050 fps
170gr JHP @ 1300fps    Norma Ref #11002   (early lots (83-84) were loaded to 1400fps/740fpe)
165gr JHP @ 1400fps    Norma Ref #11003 ? (165's were rarer)

(https://s20.postimg.cc/hsfssxgwd/Norma10mm_Data_zpsdade2de7.jpg)

(https://s20.postimg.cc/mebx1aa59/Norma10mm_Box_zps8b4666f1.jpg)

A page from Norma Hand-Loading data manual (don't bother looking for the R-123 powder it has long been discontinued!
(https://s20.postimg.cc/vs19jz8bx/Norma10mmloaddata_zpsa7644b55.jpg)

Data for the NORMA 170gr (cartridge provided by Intercooler)
Cartridge is from Ammo Manufacture: Norma 170 grain JHP
Ballistics Information: 10mm Auto
Muzzle Velocity: 1270 fps
Muzzle Energy: 608 ft. lbs
Brass Make/Headstamp: Norma – Brass (weight 77.8 gr.)
Bullet Make/Weight/Construction/Info; Length 0.6265"/Dia. 0.4000": 170gr Norma JHP
Actual weigh 170.0 grains  Crimp Diameter 0.3995"
HP depth  HP 0.1550" / HP dia. tapered / mouth 0.2410"
C.O.A.L.: 1.2500"
Primer: Nickel color (NP)
Case: Diameter 0.4225" Crimp Diameter 0.4220" (tight) Length 0.9880"
Powder Description/Positive ID/Type/Charge Weight: ? NORMA R-123 ?  12.8 grains
Tested Velocity: 1270 fps

(https://s20.postimg.cc/pp6nwwqq5/IMG_0292_zpsb2f2ef47.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.cc/q1y233gpp/IMG_0294_zps09970a62.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.cc/79m6zis19/IMG_0296_zps51852a49.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.cc/8bwdi2ikd/IMG_0297_zps4d61d946.jpg)
(https://s20.postimg.cc/k10d61h8t/IMG_0299_zps227e4cfc.jpg)
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: Intercooler on October 26 2013 04:25:57 AM MDT
No charge weight for the 170's to match it up. Do you know if anything exists?
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: 4949shooter on October 26 2013 04:36:50 AM MDT
Did we do a gel test on the 170 yet?
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: Intercooler on October 26 2013 04:58:25 AM MDT
   Raggedyman got a huge package I sent him the other day with these, Black Max, Critical Duty, etc... in there. Enough to really keep him smashing things  ;D He seemed really excited to get the Norma and Critical Duty tested first.
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: 4949shooter on October 26 2013 04:59:59 AM MDT
Awesome....thanks!
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: gandog56 on July 16 2014 07:46:38 PM MDT
Hmm, if a 357 SIG is just a 40 cal S&W necked down to 9mm, I wonder what you could do with a necked down 10mm?


357 Super SIG?
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: The_Shadow on July 16 2014 08:16:53 PM MDT
Gandog56 writes,
QuoteHmm, if a 357 SIG is just a 40 cal S&W necked down to 9mm, I wonder what you could do with a necked down 10mm?


357 Super SIG?

9X25Dillon is what its called.  Learn more here: http://10mm-firearms.com/wildcats/welcome-mr-randy-shelley-designer-of-the-9x25dillon-cartridge/ (http://10mm-firearms.com/wildcats/welcome-mr-randy-shelley-designer-of-the-9x25dillon-cartridge/)
(https://s20.postimg.cc/jeh4enu59/IMG_0414_zpsb7631e40.jpg)
Title: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: Osageid on July 16 2014 09:17:55 PM MDT
Another fun round to shoot.  I have the conversion barrel for my glock20 SF :)
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: Mike_Fontenot on July 17 2014 09:12:03 AM MDT
Quote from: The_Shadow on July 16 2014 08:16:53 PM MDT
Gandog56 writes,
QuoteHmm, if a 357 SIG is just a 40 cal S&W necked down to 9mm, I wonder what you could do with a necked down 10mm?


357 Super SIG?

9X25Dillon is what its called.


I would suspect a necked-down 10mm (to a 9mm bullet diameter) would have close to true .357mag ballistics, like .357sig was intended to be, but fell short of that.  Is that about what you get with a 9x25Dillon (in terms of energy, i.e., around 700 ft-lbs)?
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: The_Shadow on July 17 2014 03:56:57 PM MDT
Here are a few correlations of the 9x25Dillon cartridge...

90gr Speer Gold Dot Hollow Point 2100 fps/6" bbl - 881 Ft / Lbs


115 gr Speer Gold Dot Hollow Point 1800 fps/6" bbl - 827  Ft / Lbs


125 gr Speer Gold Dot Hollow Point 1700 fps/6" bbl - 802  Ft / Lbs
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: Mike_Fontenot on July 17 2014 04:22:44 PM MDT
Midway shows a 9x25 147gr DoubleTap at 733 ft-lbs ... that's a bit more than .357mag, but not by much.  I'm surprised that most of the 9x25 loadings use such light bullets.
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: The_Shadow on July 17 2014 04:31:56 PM MDT
I suppose its because the 10mm delivers better heavy bullet performance than the 9x25Dillon.
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: Mike_Fontenot on July 17 2014 05:59:57 PM MDT
Quote from: The_Shadow on July 17 2014 04:31:56 PM MDT
I suppose its because the 10mm delivers better heavy bullet performance that the 9x25Dillon.

I was really thinking of .357mag vs 9x25 ... the most common light .357mag bullet is the 125gr, and the most common heavy .357mag bullet is the 158gr, with .357mag 180gr bullets occasionally being used.  It appears that the range of bullets used for the 9x25 are noticeably lighter.

What has always seemed strange to me is that the top .357mag energies are about the same as the top 10mm energies.  The max pressure is slightly higher (about 7% higher) for 10mm (37500 psi) than for .357mag (35000 psi).  And the cross-sectional area of the 10mm bullet is about 26% greater than for the .357mag (.16 sq-in vs .127 sq-in).  For the idealistic and un-realistic case where the pressure stays at max pressure for the whole bullet travel down the barrel, the energy is just the max pressure times cross-sectional area (which gives the force on the bullet), times the total length of the bullet's travel down the barrel (expressed in feet).  That would give about 2000 ft-lb for the 10mm, versus about 1487 ft-lb for the .357mag.  Of course, the actual pressure is usually fairly peaked, and the pressure falls rapidly after the peak is reached, so the energies are substantially less.  But the fact that the top commercial loadings in the two cartridges have about the same energies seems to imply that in the .357mag loadings, the pressure is kept nearer the max pressure for more of the bullet travel ... why would that be the case?  Maybe some of the experienced reloaders on this forum can shed some light on that question.
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: The_Shadow on July 17 2014 06:58:08 PM MDT
There were a few guys that claimed to have loaded 180 grain bullets in the 9x25Dillon cases, but didn't divulge their load data.

The 180 gr 357 bullets I cast are a bit too long to use in the 9x25 cases.  The balance of what sticks outside vs. what's inside plays a part in pressures.  But these 180s in my 357 Magnum are loaded to 1325 fps from the 6" S&W Mod19, however with other powders I could drive it harder...

(https://s20.postimg.cc/skqn6mhfx/SAECO399_RCBS180gr-12_zpsffeaf9b2.jpg)
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: gandog56 on July 18 2014 01:19:10 PM MDT
Quote from: Mike_Fontenot on July 17 2014 04:22:44 PM MDT
Midway shows a 9x25 147gr DoubleTap at 733 ft-lbs ... that's a bit more than .357mag, but not by much.  I'm surprised that most of the 9x25 loadings use such light bullets.

It's kind of hard since 99.9% of 9mm loads don't seem to go above 147 grain bullets. Wouldn't be much of a market for heavier 9mm bullets.
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: Captain O on October 11 2015 09:13:55 PM MDT
A warm load for the 170 grain JHP in the 10mm would be 13 grains of the original Accurate Arms #7. Such a load will generate 1324 fps in a Colt's Delta Elite, and 1374 fps (713 fpe) from my 7" barreled, long slide, Hunting Model IAI Javalina.

The load was from John Taffin's column, "Taffins Tests" in the American Handgunner, June 1991.
Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: Captain O on October 11 2015 09:22:48 PM MDT
TAFFIN TESTS

THE 10MM

JOHN TAFFIN

The modern beginnings of the 10MM go back to the early 1970's with the creation of the .40 G&A. At the time, there were three semi-auto cartridges of any serious consequences available, the 9MM, the .38 Super, and the .45 ACP. The idea was to come up with a cartridge that combined the best qualities of the 9MM and .45 ACP. With the creation of the new .40 semi-auto cartridge, the statement was made that "...the .40 caliber was chosen because it can be shown mathematically that it takes about this size projectile to provide the cross-sectional area to achieve adequate stopping power at reasonable pistol velocities."

There are any number of experts, men who have first hand knowledge of bullet performance in both hunting and defensive situations, who would dispute that there is any such thing as stopping power. Penetration combined with hitting vital areas seem to be much more important and the .40 G&A would certainly offer excellent penetration capabilities by combining the speed of the 9MM with the bullet weight of the .45 ACP. The larger the caliber, the better the chance of hitting vital areas. The .40, while not as good as the .45 in this respect, is certainly better than the 9mm, speaking strictly from the standpoint of the cross sectional area offered by each cartridge.

The .40 G&A was wildcatted using cut down .224 Weatherby brass and 180 grain .38-40 bullets. Chambered in a Browning Hi-Power, maximum velocities were right at 1250 feet per second. The .40 G&A went nowhere but it opened the doors for the 10MM.

Now enters the Bren Ten. In 1984, Jeff Cooper put his stamp of approval on a new semi-automatic from Dornaus & Dixon, the offspring combining some of the best features of the Czech made CZ-75 9mm with the distinct advantage of a larger hole in the barrel. The amazing thing is that Chairman Jeff took to heart a semi-auto that was not chambered in .45 ACP and was a double action semi-automatic. The new caliber was the 10mm, and the new semi-auto, while a double action, could be carried cocked-and-locked.

Cooper named the new handgun the Bren Ten, BR for the BRNO factory in Czechoslovakia and EN for the British Enfield factory. Bren Ten made a catchy name for the new 10mm. Unfortunately, the name still exists and the Bren Ten itself is no more. By 1987, Dornaus & Dixon had gone into bankruptcy.

The gun died, but the cartridge did not. Colt rescued it by chambering the Government Model, renamed the Delta Elite, and 10mm handguns have been available from Springfield Armory, IAI, LAR, Thompson/Center, Glock, Smith & Wesson with the 1006 and 1016. I can think of no other instance in history whereby the original handgun died so quickly, and yet the cartridge lived on in so many persuasions most of which are now also gone.

Loading the 10mm proved to be sufficiently easy with the use of RCBS Carbide dies. I always like to leave about one-sixteenth of an inch of the shoulder of any semi-auto bullet exposed. This works with some bullets in the Colt 10mm but loads for the Javelina must be seated with the shoulder flush with the case mouth.

Four jacketed bullets were shot extensively in the Colt and Javelina 10mms. Those bullets were Sierra's 150 and 180 grain jacketed hollow cavities, Speer's 190 FMJ, and Hornady's 200 grain FMJ. A fifth jacketed bullet, Hornady's 170 grain jacketed hollow point was used in the Javelina alone.

The 10mm proves to be quite fussy about the jacketed bullets and load combinations it is being fed. The Speer 190 would not group at all with either of the Colts with any of the loads tried. Switching to the Javelina, the same Speer 190 would shoot into less than two inches with the right load. I called Speer and they related that they too had had problems in the Colt Delta Elite and others have related that the Delta Elite is no great shakes accuracy-wise with any loads tried. Both Colt Delta Elites I used for testing the 10mm had been worked over with slide tightening, trigger jobs, etc, but had stock barrels.

Many jacketed loads proved to be exceptionally accurate in the Colt Delta Elites and the Javelina with many loads grouping under two inches or less at 25 yards when fired using the Outer's Pistol Perch as a rest. A sandbag is placed in the barrel notch of the perch and another is placed on the platform that serves as a hand rest. This proved to be the best way of using the Pistol Perch for accuracy testing.

Some excellent loads surfaced as the testing progressed. With jacketed bullets in the 180 to 200 grain category, 10.5 grains of AA#7 gave velocities in the 1100+ fps range and consistently grouped in two inches or less with both the Delta Elites and the Javelina. This same load gave the same excellent results with the RCBS #10mm-200 cast bullet in the Colt Delta Elites. Groups ran in the one and one-half inch range with velocities at 1200 feet per second. Switching to the Javelina, 11.0 grains of AA#7 gives 1281 feet per second and groups right at one-inch.   An excellent practice or competition load for the 10mm with the RCBS cast bullet proved to be 5.5 grains of WW231. This load goes 1000 fps from the five-inch barrel of the Delta Elite and 1075 fps from the seven-inch barrel of the Javelina. Accuracy is so good, I would search no more. This load makes major with plenty to spare, is easy to handle and consistently groups under one and one-half inches. For a lighter cast bullet, I use the Bull-X 175 grain semi-wadcutter. The same 5.5 grains of WW231 gives velocities of 1050 in the Delta Elites and 1100 in the Javelina. Easy shooting and easily makes major for action shooting competition.

Is the 10mm a hunting pistol? With qualifications, yes it is . The qualifications are the proper ammunition and especially discretion. Pushed to the limit, the 10mm is better than the .357 Magnum but still quite a bit below the .41 Magnum. I have been using the 170 Hornady Jacketed Hollow Point and have developed a warm load of 13.0 grains of AA#7 for 1374 feet per second from the seven-inch Javelina. This should do the job on small deer without any problem. This load should also be worked up to carefully starting at around 11.0 grains.

LOADS FOR THE 10MM

FIREARM: COLT DELTA ELITE   BARREL LENGTH: 5"

BRASS: MIDWAY 10MM   PRIMER: WINCHESTER WSP

CHRONOGRAPH: OEHLER MODEL 35P   GROUPS: 5 SHOTS @ 25 YARDS

JACKETED BULLETS

BULLET             LOAD     MV     GROUP

SIERRA 150 JHP   11.5 GR. AA#7 1212     3 1/4"

                 12.0 GR. AA#7 1267     2 3/4"

                 12.5 GR. AA#7 1315     3"

                 8.5 GR. AA#5  1097     2 5/8"

                 9.0 GR. AA#5  1163     1 5/8"

                 9.5 GR. AA#5  1251     2 3/4"

                 10.0 GR. AA#5 1296     3 1/2"

                 10.5 GR. AA#5 1324     1 7/8"

                 7.5 GR. HERCO 1186     2 1/4"

                 8.0 GR. HERCO 1199     2"

                 8.5 GR. HERCO 1218     2 3/4"

                 9.0 GR. HERCO 1296     3"

SIERRA 180 JHP   10.0 GR. AA#7 1073     2"

                 10.5 GR. AA#7 1139     1 1/2"

                 11.0 GR. AA#7 1182     2 1/4"

                 7.5 GR. AA#5 992       2 7/8"

                 8.0 GR. AA#5 1045      3"

                 8.5 GR. AA#5 1112      3 1/8"

                 9.0 GR. AA#5 1179      1 1/2"

                 10.0 GR. HS-7 1140     2 3/8"

                 10.5 GR. HS-7 1202     2 5/8"

                 11.5 GR. HS-7 1292     2 1/8"

                 10.0 GR. WW540 1196    3"

                 10.5 GR. WW540 1255    1 7/8"

                 7.0 GR. HS-6 876       2 1/8"

                 7.5 GR. HS-6 948       4 1/2"

                 8.0 GR. HS-6 1062      2 1/2"

                 5.0 GR. WW231 889      4"

                 5.5 GR. WW231 971      3"

                 6.0 GR. WW231 1047     2 7/8"

HORNADY 200 FMJ  10.0 GR. AA#7 1088     3"

                 10.5 GR. AA#7 1138     1 5/8"

                 11.0 GR. AA#7 1167     3"

                 7.5 GR. AA#5 990       2"

                 8.0 GR. AA#5 1057     2 1/2"

                 8.5 GR. AA#5 1099     4 3/4"

                 9.0 GR. HS-7 1034     2 1/2"

                 9.5 GR. HS-7 1122     1 3/4"

                 10.0 GR. HS-7 1141     2"

                 9.0 GR. WW540 1051     2"

                 9.5 GR. WW540 1139     2 7/8"

                 6.5 GR. HS-6 842       3"

                 7.0 GR. HS-6 892       4 3/4"

                 7.5 GR. HS-6 946       3"

                 4.5 GR. WW231 805      2 1/4"

                 5.0 GR. WW231 895      3"

                 5.5 GR. WW231 952      3 1/2"

CAST BULLETS

BULLET             LOAD       MV       GROUP

RCBS #10MM-200  9.0 GR. AA#7  1022      2"

                10.0 GR. AA#7 1130     1 3/4"

                10.5 GR. AA#7 1204     1 1/2"

                5.0 GR. AA#5  742      2 1/8"

                6.0 GR. AA#5  893       2"

                7.0 GR. AA#5  983      2 1/8"

                8.0 GR. HS-7  945       2"

                9.0 GR. HS-7  1123     1 3/4"

                5.0 GR. WW231 950      1 1/4"

                5.5 GR. WW231 1010     1 3/8"

                6.0 GR. WW231 1083     2 1/2"

                8.0 GR. BLUE DOT 1005  2 1/8"

                9.0 GR. BLUE DOT 1091  2 1/4"

                10.0 GR. AA#9  919     3 1/4"

                11.0 GR. AA#9  1039    3 1/2"

                12.0 GR. AA#9  1108    2 1/8"

BULL-X 175 SWC  8.0 GR. AA#7      936     3 3/8"

                9.0 GR. AA#7      986      2"

                10.0 GR. AA#7     1142     3 1/2"

                11.0 GR. AA#7     1213     2"

                12.0 GR. AA#7     1328     2 5/8"

                9.0 GR. BLUE DOT  1116     3 3/4"

                10.0 GR. BLUE DOT 1206     3"

                4.5 GR. WW231     846      2 3/4"

                5.0 GR. WW231     965      2 1/8"

                5.5 GR. WW231     1047     2 1/2"

                6.5 GR. AA#5      923      3 3/8"

                7.0 GR. AA#5      966      3 1/2"

                7.5 GR. AA#5      1050     2 5/8"

FACTORY LOADS

BULLET     LOAD       MV   GROUP

150 GR. JHP   HORNADY   1278   1 7/8"

200 GR. FMJ   HORNADY   1113   2 3/8"

170 GR. JHP   PMC   1150   2 1/4"

200 GR. FMJ   PMC   1067   2 1/4"

170 GR. SWC   LOAD-X   1050   1 3/8"



FIREARM:AMT JAVELINA 10MM BARREL LENGTH: 7"

BRASS: MIDWAY   10MM   PRIMER: CCI #300

CHRONOGRAPH: OEHLER MODEL 35P   GROUPS: FIVE SHOTS AT 25 YDS.

BULLET           LOAD        MV    GROUP

SIERRA 150 JHP   13.0 GR. AA#7   1406   2 1/4"

SIERRA 150 JHP   12.0 GR. BLUE DOT   1463   2 1/2"

HORNADY 170 JHP   13.0 GR. AA#7   1374   2"

HORNADY 170 JHP   11.0 GR. BLUE DOT   1323   2 1/2"

SIERRA 180 JHP   10.5 GR. AA#7   1164   1 3/4"

SIERRA 180 JHP   12.0 GR. AA#7   1274   2 3/8"

SIERRA 180 JHP   10.0 GR. BLUE DOT   1225   2 3/8"

SIERRA 180 JHP   5.5 GR. WW231   959   1 7/8"

SPEER 190 JFP   10.5 GR. AA#7   1162   2 1/4"

SPEER 190 JFP   11.0 GR. AA#7   1189   4 1/4"

SPEER 190 JFP   10.0 GR. BLUE DOT   1212   5 1/2"

SPEER 190 JFP   5.5 GR. WW231   934   1 3/4"

HORNADY 200 JFP   10.5 GR. AA#7   1171   2 1/4"

HORNADY 200 JFP   11.0 GR. AA#7   1179   1 1/2"

HORNADY 200 JFP   9.0 GR. BLUE DOT   1132   3"

HORNADY 200 JFP   5.5 GR. WW231   948   1 3/4"

CAST BULLETS

RCBS #10MM-200   10.5 GR. AA#7   1229   2 3/4"

RCBS #10MM-200   11.0 GR. AA#7   1281   1 1/4"

RCBS #10MM-200   10.0 GR. BLUE DOT   1321   3"

RCBS #10MM-200   5.5 GR. WW231   1078 1 1/2"

BULL-X 175 GR. SWC 5.5 GR. WW231 1096 1 3/4"

Title: Re: 10mm Ammo History and Specifcations
Post by: The_Shadow on April 17 2018 07:16:43 PM MDT
Made a few updates in the section today as I re addressed hosted pictures...enjoy! :D