Still waiting for the second response from Alliant's Tech (after sending pictures). It appears it shouldn't be there. I have feelers out and got a heck of a response from someone on the Ruger board:
Blue Dot is a double-base flake powder with blue identification "dots" (actually, they are powder flakes coated in blue dye); the powder - like many - is coated in graphite to make it flow easier and to slightly retard the burn rate.
The yellow powder is odd and the pictures are very clear - and I don't see any in my can of Blue Dot. It doesn't look like nitrocellulose (which is a pale yellowish green) but sort of looks like elemental sulfur - the only problem is that there isn't any sulfur or sulfur compounds in Blue Dot. Looking at the MSDS for Blue Dot, about the only thing I see that would be yellow is the diphenylamine, which is included in the powder to prevent further oxidation of the nitrocellulose and nitroglycerine by residual sulfuric or nitric acid. Diphenylamine bisulfite - which occurs after it reacts with sulfuric acid - is a bright yellow and could have been deposited on the outside of the powder grains.
If you're seeing this in a lot of different powders, that makes diphenylamine a more likely culprit, since it's used in a lot of powders. Whether or not the powder is still safe to use, I can't really tell. If it is diphenylamine bisulfite from residual sulfuric acid, it's probably just fine, since that's why the manufacturers put the diphenylamine in powders in the first place.
For those who haven't seen the stuff...here is what we are talking about.
The worst as found in Blue Dot
(http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/IMG_0319_zpsfbf09d40.jpg)
In a charge of Silhouette powder
(http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/IMG_0310_zpse98f8a5e.jpg)
Less in this charge of Blue Dot
(http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/IMG_0307_zps30235bc8.jpg)
First seen in the Nugent ammo powder
(http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/IMG_0183.jpg)
Based off the responses it appears this is being added.
Most definitely added! Finding the answers...Why did they put the additive in there? Does it serve a purpose?
The mystery continues! ???
What the .......?!?!?
Is this being found in very recent powder? The newest BD I've got is from a couple months ago.
That is crazy!
LeMat, Alliant is not putting this "yellow stuff" in any of their powders, period!
In fact the pictures are from two different ammo makers, Littlestone ammo (recent)(and different powders) and Peirce Outfitters Ted Nugent ammo found in the pull-down of cartridge that contained this "yellow stuff"...
I have gotten response from all the makers/mfg's and they aren't putting it in! This appears to be some kind of reaction and the Ruger board response looks the most fitting.
Feedback on Enos Forum:
I'm no expert. Sulfur is a component in gunpowders though and is yellow. I've seen this complaint in another forum just recently. My guess would be as good as yours. And my guess is that a step or so is being skipped for cost and/or faster production.
I'm trying to get the link where this was posted.
The chemicals that were mentioned on the Ruger forum are part of the colloidal processing while making the powder formulations. They used various solvents and stabilizers so they can work with the mixtures from the extruders, rolling mills, etc. without causing ignition. Therefore once the reactions are finished and the graphites are added to keep things form clumping together as well as the other properties to control the burn rates. This is what gives the powders their dark grey to silvery look. Silhouette powders seem to lack some of the graphite that is seen in other powders.
It is my opinion that this "yellow stuff" is not sulfur or a sulfur compound... ??? Also remember, I have a background in Hazardous Materials Chemistry. I may pull the rounds apart again, to see if I can disconcern any other details.
Not sure, but could it be Sulfur leaching out ?
One of the few Elements with that Yellowish Hue
Here you will find the chemical makeup of Blue Dot(scroll to the bottom of the page to see the chemistry), there is no sulfur in its composition period! The Blue Dots contain (Blue dots with TiO2) (Titanium Dioxide) A substance used in paint pigments.
Alliant or Hercules Blue Dothttp://www.ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/sample_detail.php?powder_id=6 (http://www.ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/sample_detail.php?powder_id=6)
The Blue Dot appears to have absorbed the color, whereas the Silhouette and other powders didn't appear to have absorbed.
This "yellow stuff" did cross my mind as Titanium or Cadmium Yellow...A substance used in paint pigments.
RamShot Silhouette http://www.ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/sample_detail.php?powder_id=91 (http://www.ilrc.ucf.edu/powders/sample_detail.php?powder_id=91)
I am by far in no way a Chemist, but as some Nitrates (i.e. Nitroglycerine) breaks down, a form of Sulfur is produced
As Sulfuric Acid is a part of making Nitro
But as I said, I am not a Chemist
You may want to ask one
Chemical letter for Sulfur is S...
Nitric acid is Formula: HNO3 Hydrogen, Nitrogen, Oxygen (no sulfur)
Trinitrotoluene or TNT is resonant ring structures toluene Formula: C7H5N3O6 (no sulfur)
Here is what is found in Blue Dot's Chemical formulation
Nitroglycerin is also known as tri nitroglycerine or 1,2,3-Trinitroxypropane, triple Nitro groups using glycerol Formula: C3H8O3 but (no sulfur)
Diphenylamine Formula C12H11N (no sulfur)
2-nitrodiphenylamine is also a double resonant ring structures of phenol Formula 2NO2DPA (no sulfur)
Ethyl centralite formula: C17H20N2O empirical formula: C17H20N2O (no sulfur)
Add in this from RamShot Silhouette, Dibutyl phthalate Formula: C16H22O4 (no sulfur)
None of the chemical compounds contain sulfur. One thing I do know is that the "Yellow Stuff" doesn't belong in the powder as it comes from the factory.
So how did it get there?
Was the ammo makers adding it on purpose? Trying to find that answer... :-\
Was it contaminated with out knowledge? Two different ammo makers with this "yellow stuff" doesn't seem likely!
Did they receive powder that was contaminated with this stuff and it spread throughout the other powders via the powder drop systems? ???
There has been some talk of taggants to be put in the powders, but not said to have happened...
here is some discussion about that...
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-647860.html (http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-647860.html)
Someone said this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_styphnate
But I also found this:
http://www.eurenco.com/content/explosives/defence-security/high-explosives/primers/dnbf/
If that was either of those very highly (heat, shock and static) sensitive compounds in the amount of stuff we are seeing in there, there would possibly have been a detonation already, in the ammo maker's machinery.
If that amount of stuff is either of those compounds is would surely cause an over pressure situation, as normal primer pressures can reach 25K psi.
Quote from: The_Shadow on October 31 2013 10:11:22 AM MDT
Chemical letter for uur is S...
Nitric acid is Formula: HNO3 Hydrogen, Nitrogen, Oxygen (no sulfur)
Trinitrotoluene or TNT is resonant ring structures toluene Formula: C7H5N3O6 (no sulfur)
Here is what is found in Blue Dot's Chemical formulation
Nitroglycerin is also known as tri nitroglycerine or 1,2,3-Trinitroxypropane, triple Nitro groups using glycerol Formula:
Hey Shadow:
I hate to keep beating this but read the process for manufacturing Nitroglycerin:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitroglycerin
Quote:
Manufacturing
The industrial manufacturing process often uses a nearly 1:1 mixture of concentrated
sulfuric acid and concentrated nitric acid. This can be produced by mixing white fuming nitric acid—a quite expensive pure nitric acid in which the oxides of nitrogen have been removed, as opposed to red fuming nitric acid, which contains nitrogen oxides—and concentrated
sulfuric acid. More often, this mixture is attained by the cheaper method of mixing fuming
sulfuric acid, also known as oleum—
sulfuric acid containing excess
sulfur trioxide—and azeotropic nitric acid (consisting of about 70 percent nitric acid, with the rest being water).
The
sulfuric acid produces protonated nitric acid species, which are attacked by glycerin's nucleophilic oxygen atoms. The nitro group is thus added as an ester C-O-NO2 and water is produced. This is different from an aromatic nitration reaction in which nitronium ions are the active species in an electrophilic attack on the molecule's ring system.
Seems like there's a little Sulfuric there somewhere
As I said, I'm not a Chemist, but I've hauled tens of thousands of tons of Nitrates over the years and I know for a fact that Sulfuric is used in the process of making a lot of different Nitrates
It may not be noted in the final chemical make-up, but it is still there
As some Elements breakdown or decays, it become another
You really need to talk with a Chemist and not just dismiss a theory