So my wife bought me an EAA Witness polymer frame in 10mm for Christmas two years ago and I'd like to share my experiences so far.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img811/1014/89mv.jpg)
To begin with, there aren't a whole lot of holster options for the Witness and less for the polymer frame version. Jason at http://www.tcbfirearms.com (http://www.tcbfirearms.com) took really good care of me and made a holster for my gun with about a week or so turnaround. He even drove out to the Phoenix Rod and Gun Club from Queen Creek, AZ (about 45 miles but he was kinda sorta in the area) to pick up my gun. The TCB holster fits the pistol very well with excellent retention. He made it exactly to my specifications.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img823/5500/e3wq.jpg)
Recently, I found out that Alien Gear carries a holster to fit the polymer frame Witness and my wife bought one for me for my birthday. At $30, it is an outstanding deal. It's an hybrid design like Crossbreed or MTAC. It is thicker than my Crossbreed and the holster shell sticks out a bit. This might allow more clothing lint and dust to get into the pistol over time but it's too early to tell. It came with a bag of extra hardware to allow for changing cant or replacing lost screws. It has a lifetime no questions asked type of warranty and they'll swap the kydex shell at any time for a different gun type free of charge but extra shells only cost $10. At $30 for the whole thing, though, I see no reason not to have a holster for each gun you own. If you haven't tried an hybrid leather/kydex IWB holster, you really ought to give this one a try.
(http://i39.tinypic.com/2dl81ls.jpg)
Initially, the pistol functioned pretty well so long as it was very clean. I polished the feed ramp and it would last a little longer before it had the occasional issue. Almost immediately, I replaced the factory recoil spring with a 22lb Wolff spring because I had heard that Witnesses can get cracked slides, especially the standard, rounded slide like I have. A stiffer recoil spring is supposed to help mitigate the problem. Unfortunately, it also means higher slide velocity on the way forward and this, combined with full power 10mm loads seems to mean that the slide outruns the magazine every now and then.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img826/5610/u8t9.jpg)
Sometimes the case rim just doesn't really make it under the extractor and sometimes the slide completely overruns the case head. The obvious solution would be to lighten the recoil spring (at the risk of cracking the slide) or to get extra power magazine springs. Unfortunately, there are no 10mm extra power springs available, so far as I know. Wolff carries them for every other caliber the Witness comes in except 10mm. So I'm left with going back to the factory recoil spring which should keep things running well but time will tell. It's also worth noting that this pistol REALLY doesn't like 1.255" COAL hand loads. They fit the magazine and hand cycle but they'll jam up the slide every time. 1.250" loads work just fine. I may eventually take a file to the back side of the extractor and try to open that gap up just a bit but I'm hesitant to remove metal there as I'm sure it would void EAA's gossamer warranty and that area's tolerance is pretty critical.
Then, a couple months ago, the trigger bar broke. Yes, it just plain broke. It shouldn't be subjected to any more stress in 10mm than in other calibers but it just broke. To the credit of the design of the pistol, it still functioned correctly in single action, just not in double action.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img845/3030/6l8j.jpg)
I called EAA and returned the pistol for service, detailing both the cycling issues (neglecting to mention anything about hand loads) and the broken trigger bar in a letter, with photos illustrating the problems. While they did accept the pistol for service, they were nowhere near as eager and accommodating as other manufacturers have been in my experience. The turnaround was pretty decent, about two weeks if I remember right. They replaced the trigger bar and "adjusted the barrel," whatever the hell that means. No change in cycling so I can't go back to the heavier recoil spring.
Aside from the mechanical problems, the pistol feels really nice in the hand and I believe the polymer frame helps reduce felt recoil a bit by flexing. The thumb safety is a little bit of a reach for my thumb but I have carny fingers. The pistol is more accurate than I am but that's not saying a lot because I'm not really that great with a handgun. The overall quality of the parts is medium to low. There are several places on the slide where tooling marks were left but the fit of the parts is good. The trigger is heavy but smooth in double action, with a clean break and a little over travel. In single action, it is light but there is some noticeable creep and still some over travel. The creep is relatively smooth, though. I'd compare it to a Ruger P series trigger, but less grittiness in the creep on the single action. In short, it's perfectly workable for a defensive pistol but not exactly match grade. The magazine release and slide catch are easy to operate but don't extend so far as to be annoying. The texture of the grip is pretty aggressive, which I prefer but might be a bit much for some folks. The sights that came on it had the point of impact about 8" high at 20 yards so I replaced them with an extra high rear sight and filed it down until it met the point of impact.
With all the problems I've had, you might think I'd hate the pistol but I guess I'm a forgiving soul when it comes to guns. I can't help but like this gun. I think you might be better off getting one of the match, hunter, limited, etc. models, though.
Update:
Got it back today. They "replaced and fit the front insert." Haven't shot it yet. On this trip back I didn't send a magazine with it and I forgot to include a check for shipping but they sent the pistol back with a magazine and without complaining about the shipping charge.
Update:
Ran several magazines through the gun Monday. No stoppages with handloaded 155 gr Berry's plated or 180 and 200 gr XTP. Hopefully this will be the last trip back to EAA. I strongly recommend that anyone looking into a 10mm Witness get at least a steel frame standard model but the Match or Hunter versions are probably a much better deal. The trigger isn't great and the gun just isn't as accurate as I'd like. I was shooting at a 12" plate at 150 yards and once I had the elevation, I still struggled to hit the plate with round landing a foot or two high, low, left, and right and only occasional hits. With my wife's S&W Model 13 I'm able to hit the target consistently, maybe about half the time. I really want to like this pistol because it has a lot of positive attributes but I'm also pretty disappointed.
My first 10mm was a Polymer. I almost hung up 10mm because of how bad it ran. Took a second chance on a Match and the rest is history! Match on up are pretty stellar!
That's what I've heard. I'll keep trying for a little while before I make it someone else's problem. That's the funny thing about shitty customer service. If they fixed it right in the first place, they'd have a great reputation. Give people the runaround and don't invest time and they get frustrated and pass it on, making multiple bad impressions for your product.
Maybe Henning would be willing to take a stab at it.
I traded mine in on a brand new GP100 .357 to a gun shop. It may have been someone else's problem but not directly from me :o ;D I just couldn't do that.
My Hunter is a sweet shooter too but the Limited is an amazing piece. Part of why I bought a second and own for Witness pieces. If I were to give you a piece of advice trade it in on something you may want and/or get a Match, Limited, Hunter or Stock II. We have a member here that will be rolling out his Stock II 10mm sometime down the road. Hopefully he posts a glaring review on it!
Hard to believe I WAS DONE at this point:
http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/topic/99046-leaving-the-10mm-camp-its-been-fun-and-a-real-learning-selling-some-ammo-too/?hl=%2Bpolymer+%2B10mm
Issues will irritate the crap out of you but if you get a good one or three things are much better! The Razorback was a little finicky to my liking too so it set sail. Hating seeing the Match go but it served well and re-sold well to get the one I had my eye on. In that case I actually got more than I paid for it 8)
Someone was thinking along your line of thought about the same time!
http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=183389#entry2024736
So I went back to the factory spring and I had no stoppages but I can feel several distinct "kerchunks" as the slide wanders on forward. I guess I should have gotten the calibration kit from Wolff instead of going straight for the 22lb spring. I really want to use the stiffest spring available to avoid a cracked slide but that would require a stiffer magazine spring and it doesn't seem that such an animal exists.
Had similar issues with the compact steel. EAA replaced entire pistol with new/current model with squared off slide. I put in a Wolff 18 lb spring and as a whole performed 90%. It is a great pistol too shoot,very accurate. Also the mags suck. If they were available in the Mec Gar K10 style like the full size i bet pistol would function. That being said,the Fullsize base models in steel now are more better in quality control dept.K10 mags,newer slides,full size only.Glock has the compact dept hands down. Now for me at this time, I went full tilt and plopped down some coin on the Stock II. Hopefully by Christmas.And that will be it for awhile,im getting serious vibes
from the boss.Im on lock down for awhile.
Buy first and apologize later ;D Use Flowers or a dinner :D
Household Six bought my Witness for me as a Christmas gift. I have no business complaining.
Just when I'm starting to be happy with the gun again, this happens. Whiskey. Tango. Fox.
(http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/6997/6swe.jpg)
What area broke?
If it's the slide they should put you a good one on there (insist on it!). The other option is having them upgrade you to a Match! Possibly have them convert it to a DA/SA there or just do it at your leisure.
One of the frame rails broke off. I think they are pretty limited in what they can actually fix since the manufacturing is done in Italy. I'm sure they'll have to replace the frame, which probably means a whole 'nother pistol. I'd like a Match or similar but I don't know if they're willing to do that in exchange for a polymer frame pistol and it would mean all new holsters. :(
Damn that sucks! Best of luck getting it swapped out or made whole!
Thanks, guys. Should've got a G20 SF in the first place.
Naa. Just a learning curve to get a Match on up where possible. Haven't seen any of those broke and they have so much better ergonomics.
Probably will need an FFL transfer (fee) for the replacement. I would insist on the Match and pay the difference. It's a tank of a frame!
Quote from: Raggedyman on November 01 2013 12:31:46 PM MDT
Thanks, guys. Should've got a G20 SF in the first place.
Yep...
Sorry for your troubles.
My take on it is that the EAA's were just not designed with full power 10mm auto in mind. None of the main stream manufacturers even make full power 10mm any more, so we have to go to boutique companies.
Even the Glocks are a bit undersprung for the full power stuff, I think, but were still designed way back when 10mm mainstream ammo was still full power or near full power so they can take the abuse.
Perhaps you will be happier with a Glock and a 22 pound RSA.
Ill chime here. Tanfoglios are fine with full power. My thinking is that when they were making pistols with the rounded slides there was a total quality control issue. Be it the poly frame or the metal ones at the time. When my compact was totally replaced with current slide design, the entire pistol seemed more durable. I ran Underwood's 180's and Nugent rounds with a beefed up 18lb spring. My Match from the past ate it all up, however I kept most rounds in the 180's.Some 135's and 155's,but for the most part I did not feel the need to shoot the nuke stuff in a metal frame as a whole. I still don't. Now I stepped it up and will be getting the Stock 2. Nothing will change,180's and 200's and maybe 165's.Tanfo's are fine, just got to respect them. The G20 is the beater. EAA test shoots repaired pistols with Eagle 180's. Just my take.
Maybe they just need the heavier slide to slow things down a bit.
What spring were you running? I have 22lb Wolff springs in my 4.75's and a 20lb in my 6". My Match had a ton of Nukes through it but looked great when I sold it. If you want a plastic pistol get the Glock.
I was using the 22 pound but that induced malfunctions. The problem is that neither of the part that broke are under a lot of stress. The trigger bar isn't under any more stress in 10mm than with 9mm and even the frame rails shouldnt be under a lot of stress.
You had two of the oddest I have ever seen!
Intercooler, my friend. Your disdain for the Glock has been well noted. ;D
It's not that I don't like them... It's just they never changed the design ;D
That's because Gason got it right in the first place. Like the 1911, it never really needed any improvements. ;)
I like the CZ design and I really want to add a 1911 and S&W 10xx to my collection but I'm starting to think that the "best" 10mm is the G20. I hope my wife will let me get an OD G20 SF from Bud's before they run out.
Wish you lived close so you could shoot mine. The 1911 capacity was wrong ;D and the Glock grip too much front to rear ;D
Glock 10mm's rock.
My choice ----->(http://gussomo.com/repository/Image/Italian_Stallion-Tee-shirt.jpg)
I must say those stallions you have have shown to be very good given the performance ammo you have run through them!
I have yet to pull the trigger on getting one of the EAA's... :-\
Quote from: Intercooler on November 02 2013 11:23:48 AM MDT
What spring were you running? I have 22lb Wolff springs in my 4.75's and a 20lb in my 6". My Match had a ton of Nukes through it but looked great when I sold it. If you want a plastic pistol get the Glock.
What were your reloads when running the 22lb spring? I am still waiting for my Witness Match to arrive but several other people I talked to said they use a 18 or 20 when running full power loads. Both told me they tried 22 but it rendered the pistol to a single shot.
Could have been different pistol to pistol. I ran it from 400lb to 800lb with the same spring.
I ran 18lb spring in previous Match.All Underwoods ran thru it,mostly 180's in total.
My Limited and Limited Pro both have fresh 22lb springs in them. Did you see the shooting videos?
The Hunter probably doesn't even need a 20 but it's what I put in.
Right now CDNN is selling poly EAA's for 299.00. No 10's,but .40 and 9mm.
Got it back today. They "replaced and fit the front insert." Haven't shot it yet. On this trip back I didn't send a magazine with it and I forgot to include a check for shipping but they sent the pistol back with a magazine and without complaining about the shipping charge.
That nice of them to make things right for you! 8)
A little lagniappe to boot! ;D
That is great customer service! Seems like a few of the companies have been making efforts to step up lately, which is good for us.
Quote from: MCQUADE on November 26 2013 06:09:50 PM MST
That is great customer service! Seems like a few of the companies have been making efforts to step up lately, which is good for us.
Yeah, I heard horror stories about ther service but my experience has been good.
Ran several magazines through the gun Monday. No stoppages with handloaded 155 gr Berry's plated or 180 and 200 gr XTP. Hopefully this will be the last trip back to EAA. I strongly recommend that anyone looking into a 10mm Witness get at least a steel frame standard model but the Match or Hunter versions are probably a much better deal. The trigger isn't great and the gun just isn't as accurate as I'd like. I was shooting at a 12" plate at 150 yards and once I had the elevation, I still struggled to hit the plate with round landing a foot or two high, low, left, and right and only occasional hits. With my wife's S&W Model 13 I'm able to hit the target consistently, maybe about half the time. I really want to like this pistol because it has a lot of positive attributes but I'm also pretty disappointed.
150 yds with a handgun? Wow!! :o I'm still trying to drive nails with an AR15 and scope at 100yds! :))
I usually go 10-20 yards but for fun 40 yards every so often. I don't even shoot the rifles more than 100 yards :o
Lol. The plate was a foot square and I was only hitting it 2 or 3 times out of a cylinder and from a rest.
Both my witness guns are quite accurate. 1" at 25 yards (rest) if I do my part, and that is with run of the mill ammo. Dialing in with a handload like I do for rifles would probably half that.
The biggest challenge I have is trigger over-travel on the full-size. The Match is adjustable and is nice and tight with no over-travel. But the full-size runs another 1/8" after the hammer starts falling. If my technique isn't perfect with each squeeze it affects the shot.
I keep meaning to drill and tap the trigger for a set screw, but haven't gotten a to it.
That's probably a big part of it in my case, too. The Smith, like most revolvers and every S&W I've ever shot, has a great trigger. My Witness has lots of creep and over travel. I also still anticipate the recoil and pull a shot occasionally with the Witness because I'm less used to it, despite the S&W also having relatively stout recoil.
With 1" at 25 yards, that ought to be about 4 MOA if the bullets stayed stable and didn't get pushed around by other factors. That's pretty damned good. Lots of folks can't shoot a rifle under 4 MOA and even some rifles have a hard time keeping up with that standard (*cough* Mini-14 *cough*). 4 MOA is a practical marksmanship standard that, if you can do it consistently from field positions, means you ought to be able to hit a man sized target out to 500 yards. Have you ever attended an Appleseed event?
Not to highjack the thread BUT :D Any suggestion as to where I can find a Stock II 10MM?
Sean
I would watch gunbroker pretty carefully. One will pop up. Tends to be feast or famine with EAA products though.
Quote from: Raggedyman on December 12 2013 10:05:56 AM MST
Have you ever attended an Appleseed event?
I have meant to but never have. There is one regularly about 20 minutes north of me on a 22 LR only range. My only 22 LR at present is a single shot, and I don't know that I would be competitive in the rapid fire parts with a single shot.
They are a great group to learn quality marksmanship from however.
They usually have a couple loaner LTRs. Call and ask.
Just found a crack on my fullsize wonder finish slide. Pretty disappointed, I've heard these things were kind of sensitive so I've never put underwood through it. Just Blazer and Remington.
Where was the crack located? Sq slide or rounded? What pound spring.
You can send it back to EAA to be swapped out. When you get it back put a Sprinco setup in it. That's exactly what I would do if I owned one.
Quote from: Intercooler on January 27 2014 02:42:10 PM MST
You can send it back to EAA to be swapped out. When you get it back put a Sprinco setup in it. That's exactly what I would do if I owned one.
Going to locate my receipt and get it sent off as soon as I find it. I'll have to look into sprinco. I'm going to ask if I can get a squared slide.
Quote from: pacapcop on January 27 2014 02:50:08 AM MST
Where was the crack located? Sq slide or rounded? What pound spring.
Rounded slide with stock spring. I own a 22 lb spring but it is not reliable. Crack is upper side of ejection port. Tried to upload a pic but it says the file is too large.
Dave84. Send the entire pistol back in present condition. Respectfully request a full consideration of a REPLACEMENT of firearm as per your experience as a buyer. You request a sq slide, and reconsideration and check of barrel. This is based on your receipt of purchase as well. Not acceptable in it's current form. State no bullets were +P or extreme and that said pistol is not worthy. The newer models are up to snuff at least in full size. Good Luck.
Thank you.
Intercooler, I'm really tempted to see if I can just pay the difference for the Match. Sounds like you had one at one point. What'd you think of it? Are the other two you own way better for the extra money?
The Match is the best bang for the buck out there period. I still miss mine and no the others aren't really a cut above in what they do. The Limited has more bells and whistles, but it's almost 2X the cost of the Match. The Match frame is the heaviest of the bunch and especially the new style railed units. I'm waiting to see if the new Xtreme Match shows up later this year or if a non-railed old style Match with the Bomar rear sight surfaces. If you can upgrade to the Match do it!
Dang, they wont do it. This is what the guy I was talking to said to me: "No sir we do not do exchanges . We will correct all the problems with your pistol."
I wonder if I offered him the difference for the hunter. This regular one is only going to break again. I didn't even shoot underwood because I already heard these were very sensitive.
You can try. If you run the Sprinco I think things will be okay.
Thought I'd report that my witness was returned today. I am very happy. The new slide appear to be 3x thicker in certain areas. The old style kind of junk mag with the red follower was replaced with a brand new k10 mag. The front sight post is a silver wonder finish and the rear is fully adjustable and black. Much better than the old fixed sights that were on here. Great add ons they did for me without asking. Pretty happy with these guys now. Will certainly consider adding a hunter now that they've treated me right ;D
Could you post some pics? im in the market for one of these.
Quote from: pacapcop on January 27 2014 07:12:48 PM MST
Dave84. Send the entire pistol back in present condition. Respectfully request a full consideration of a REPLACEMENT of firearm as per your experience as a buyer. You request a sq slide, and reconsideration and check of barrel. This is based on your receipt of purchase as well. Not acceptable in it's current form. State no bullets were +P or extreme and that said pistol is not worthy. The newer models are up to snuff at least in full size. Good Luck.
pacapcop...Is this the one you had?
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I had the compact metal.
Quote from: MT10mm on March 07 2014 06:59:43 PM MST
Could you post some pics? im in the market for one of these.
Sorry, I could never get any photos up here. Says they're all to large. I would recommend these as long as they are the brand new ones. One way to help identify that is the rail. Still, if I could have traded this for the match I would have, I really like the way they look.
Dave84,
I'm just wanting to clarify: you've got a poly frame with a wonderfinish slide? The original slide was rounded/scalloped, but the new one is not? How's the new one holding up?
It's the standard steel witness. Been holding up great. From armscor to Underwood.
Thanks, Dave84! Good info!