I have been using Power Pistol in my 1911 and HK USP (both .45ACP) for quite a few years now, and I love the power and accuracy I get when shooting IDPA with it. I also love how clean it leaves the bore! However, the 10MM AUTO is not only my favorite pistol cartridge, but my Glock G20 is my daily carry piece as well. It's just not practical (nor economical) to shoot in competition - unless you want to be picking up brass all day. Also, I've heard that the instructors & the guys who run the IDPA matches either discourage or don't even allow 10MM in certain areas of the States because the round does too much damage (i.e. deep denting, holes, etc) to the steel targets. Who woulda' thunk??? ;D
The only thing about loading the 10MM AUTO for me has been a constant challenge for a certain "magic number" or "holy grail." This would be making a 200 grain JHP cross the 1300fps threshold with accuracy. Well, I finally accomplished the 200g/1300fps mark by "bumping" up the powder charge 0.2 grains in Test #2.2. It worked like a charm. However, I was blown off my feet when I shot the Nosler 135 grain top load. IT IS A MOTHERF***ING MONSTER. If an animal (or let's say, for the sake of argument, a human "bad guy")was hit almost anywhere (from the calf area to the top of the head) - that 135 grain hollow point traveling at 1700+ FPS - carrying with it over NINE HUNDRED FOOT POUNDS of energy - would be so ferociously destructive and explosive (once it entered the wet tissue) - survival from a half-way decent shot of this type would be almost non-existent. Even if it hit the thigh, the speed & energy dump - PLUS explosive fragmentation & bone fragment "missiles"- would be so devastating that the femoral artery would almost surely be torn/perforated (if not severed completely or a large part simply destroyed). This "MONSTER ROUND" is nearly reaching rifle territory, as far as ballistics go (with the exception of super aerodynamic rifle bullets, ala SMK's, Berger VLD's, etc. But who hunts or uses self-defense at 500-1000 yards? What are most gunfights confined to statistically? Like 10-20 feet?
The chronograph used was a CED Millennium II, set 10 feet from the bench/muzzle. The pistol used, of course, was my trusty Glock G20 with a Glock Factory 6" 'Hunting Barrel' that I had custom ported. The OEM spring/guiderod were used, except for tests #4.1 & #4.2, in which I switched to a 24-lb. Glock spring on a GlockMeister Tungsten guiderod (captured). All rounds were loaded on an RCBS PRO-2000 Auto-Indexing Model. Dies were RCBS Carbide .40S&W/10MM. All rounds were also run through a LEE Factory Crimp Die. *DT = Double Tap
TEST #1.1 LOAD # 10XTP180.1
Bullet - 180g Hornady XTP JHP
Case - DT (NEW)
Primer - CCI #350 LPM
Powder - PP 8.6 g.
# of Rounds Loaded & Fired - 5
VELOCITY:
1) 1359 2) 1359 3) 1357 4) 1335 5) 1330
Average Velocity - 1344 FPS:
Average Muzzle Energy:- 722 FT. LBS.
Extreme Spread:- 29 FPS
TEST #1.2 LOAD #10XTP180.2
Bullet - 180g Hornady XTP JHP
Case - DT (NEW)
Primer - CCI #350 LPM
Powder - PP 9.6 g.
# of Rounds Loaded & Fired - 5
VELOCIITY::
1) 1426 2)1396 3) 1431 4) 1416 5) 1430
Average Velocity : 1420 FPS
Average Muzzle Energy : 806 FT. LBS.
Extreme Spread : 35 FPS
2 Sample Cases That Showed the Most Significant Change - IMG_7579_zpsa5fbb77f.jpg (http://s205.photobucket.com/user/giftedgiver/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_7579_zpsa5fbb77f.jpg.html)
IMG_0264_zps60239b0d.jpg (http://s205.photobucket.com/user/giftedgiver/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_0264_zps60239b0d.jpg.html)
TEST #2.1 LOAD #10XTP200.1
Bullet - 200g Hornady XTP JHP
Case - DT (NEW)
Primer - CCI #350 LPM
Powder - PP 7.6 g.
# of Rounds Loaded & Fired - 5
VELOCITY:
1) 1197 2)1188 3)1186 4) 1176 5) 1196
Average Velocity : 1189 FPS
Average Muzzle Energy : 628 FT LBS
Extreme Spread : 21 FPS
TEST #2.2 LOAD #10XTP200.2
Bullet - 200g Hornady XTP JHP
Case - DT (NEW)
Primer - CCI #350 LPM
Powder - PP 8.8 g.
# of Rounds Loaded & Fired - 5
VELOCITY:
1) 1298 2) 1314 3) 1307 4) 1310 5) 1305
Average Velocity : 1307 FPS
Average Muzzle Energy : 758 IN LBS
Extreme Spread : 16 FPS
2 Sample Cases That Showed the Most Significant Change : IMG_2134_zps9d1af575.jpg (http://s205.photobucket.com/user/giftedgiver/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_2134_zps9d1af575.jpg.html)
IMG_4238_zpsd5ae7a31.jpg (http://s205.photobucket.com/user/giftedgiver/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_4238_zpsd5ae7a31.jpg.html)
TEST #3.1 LOAD #10GD180.1
Bullet - 180g Speer Gold Dot JHP
Case - DT (NEW)
Primer - CCI #350 LPM
Powder - PP 8.5 g.
# of Rounds Loaded & Fired - 5
VELOCITY :
1) 1308 2) 1340 3) 1337 4) 1332 5) 1331
Average Velocity : 1330 FPS
Average Muzzle Energy : 707 FT LBS
Extreme Spread : 32 FPS
TEST 3.2 LOAD #10GD180.2
Bullet - 180g Speer Gold Dot JHP
Case - DT (NEW)
Primer - CCI #350 LPM
Powder - PP 9.6 g.
# of Rounds Loaded & Fired - 5
VELOCITY :
1) 1408 2) 1419 3)1399 4) 1407 5) 1410
Average Velocity : 1409 FPS
Average Muzzle Energy : 820 FT LBS
Extreme Spread : 20 FPS
2 Sample Cases That Showed the Most Significant Change : IMG_0017_zpsdcc19eee.jpg (http://s205.photobucket.com/user/giftedgiver/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_0017_zpsdcc19eee.jpg.html)
IMG_1158_zpsd6ab5cdf.jpg (http://s205.photobucket.com/user/giftedgiver/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_1158_zpsd6ab5cdf.jpg.html)
TEST #4.1 LOAD #10NOS135.1
Bullet - 135g Nosler JHP
Case - DT (NEW)
Primer - CCI #350 LPM
Powder - PP 10.6 g.
# of Rounds Loaded & Fired - 5
VELOCITY :
1) 1641 2) 1648 3) 1643 4) 1624 5) 1691
Average Velocity : 1649 FPS
Average Muzzle Energy : 820 FT LBS
Extreme Spread : 67 FPS
TEST #4.2 LOAD #10NOS135.2
Bullet - 135g Nosler JHP
Case - DT (NEW)
Primer - CCI #350 LPM
Powder - PP 11.6 g.
# of Rounds Loaded & Fired - 5
VELOCITY :
1) 1743 2) 1719 3) 1733 4) 1756 5) 1765
Average Velocity : 1743 FPS
Average Muzzle Energy : 911 FT LBS
Extreme Spread : 46 FPS
2 Sample Cases That Showed the Most Significant Change : IMG_6175_zps34b278f5.jpg (http://s205.photobucket.com/user/giftedgiver/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_6175_zps34b278f5.jpg.html)
(http://s205.photobucket.com/user/giftedgiver/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_4836_zps2dd9b99e.jpg.html)IMG_4836_zps2dd9b99e.jpg
Lot's of Power Pistol being used by Factory Ammo in the sheets: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ak5OC6bPsjO8dEh6eGZ3N3hpUU13SXM5cm9pZy16T0E&usp=drive_web#gid=4
Welcome supersonic! These loads from supersonic mimic another 10mmTalk member's (TaosGlock) tested loadings and confirm and duplicate those findings as well.
Just remember that some of the commercial Power Pistol loadings, show the translucent/whitish gray flakes in their composition. I am still trying to figure out if they are there as a flash suppressant, identifier or modifier being used to adjust burn rates.
Barely visible in the CCI Blazer 200TMJ load I posted...
(http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/IMG_0154_zpsf2940626.jpg)
But as you can see in the magnfied view for the Redline pull-down of the Blazer 200 TMJ
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s271/glock20c10mm/Ammo%20Pics/10mmBlazer200TMJ-crop.jpg)
Redline's pull down of the Hornady 155gr also
(http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s271/glock20c10mm/Ammo%20Pics/10mmHornady155XTP-crop.jpg)
This one is from the Speer 115gr +P+ Speer Gold Dot pull-down I have added arrows to show the flakes better.
(http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j441/_The_Shadow/ac01198c-643f-4185-b10a-ec2435393299_zps5964a555.jpg)
Yes, I must give Taos big time kudos for inspiring my tests - which (in one) I finally got a 200g JHP to consistently hit 1300fps+! (YAY!!!!)...I also credit him for that as well, because had I not seen his testing, I would have probably never used PP in my 10MM and then "bumped up" those 200g loadings like I did. Thanks, Taos!
(BTW, I posted this same thread/test over at Calguns and I'm getting a lot of s**t for it - "those cases are about to come apart" "you're pushing the envelope both with the gun and your safety" "the 135g load will just explode upon impact", etc....etc....etc.....)
Supersonic, do you have a starting load from where you worked up from? Curious as to where to start, I can see power pistolin my 1006's future. I have alot of noslers 135 gr's
Quote from: hammer1 on October 14 2013 10:45:39 AM MDT
Supersonic, do you have a starting load from where you worked up from? Curious as to where to start, I can see power pistolin my 1006's future. I have alot of noslers 135 gr's
Hammer- I started at 9.5g and worked my way up from there. The 9.5 starting charge is a very safe load. Good for plinking, too!
Quote from: The_Shadow on October 13 2013 08:37:14 AM MDTJust remember that some of the commercial Power Pistol loadings, show the translucent/whitish gray flakes in their composition. I am still trying to figure out if they are there as a flash suppressant, identifier or modifier being used to adjust burn rates.
Try to separate these "mystery" flakes and test them. I would start by using a safe area (like the underside of a metal trash can lid, or a couple of cinder blocks) and pouring a small pile of PP from the can onto test area. Then, put the "mystery flakes" a few feet away in another small pile. Ignite both and see if you can tell any difference(s).
Next, I would use the remaining flakes to add to my own loads - starting charges, low-power, of course - and substitute, grain-for-grain, these flakes with your PP powder. Then check for differences by firing them. I would have someone video record you firing these in low light (along with an equal amount of rounds loaded to the same exact capacity of PP by itself) to see if, in fact this is a flash deterrent. If no differences can be detected, it is in all likelihood some kind of identifier. Depending on how "cooperative" the person at the other end of the phone is, I would then call the respective manufacturer and explain the "pulling of rounds" and the testing. Ask if the person could help you out by telling you what these flakes are (make sure you say it's for your own info
only). Chances are - in my experience dealing with
any manufacturers firearm-related - you will get a "We don't/can't give that kind of information out." And if a reason is offered, it will be one of 3 things:
"It's a liability issue" "It's a proprietary issue" or "It's per company policy" .....BUT, seeing as you actually do these "pull downs" you are obviously very curious, so it can never hurt to ask. But, you may get lucky and your test(s) will confirm enough so that you won't even need to make that phone call in the first place. 8)
EDIT: I just noticed that in all the pictures you took of the flakes (looks like they are under a microscope), it seems as if some are just lighter in color than the others. But in the pic where you have the powder emptied into a pan, it looks like a fine, white powder is in there - completely separate from the flakes. Is that just an optical illusion due to the lighting or how the photo was taken? If this
is a fine powder separate from the flakes, I'd like to see some "microscope images" of this stuff as well. Fine powder almost always equals flash deterrent. Identifiers (both BlueDot and RedDot are perfect examples) have - in the case of the 2 powders just mentioned - blue or red-colored flakes (respectively) in a ratio of about ~3:10.
Thanks, I appreciate it.
I love power pistol for the reasons you list as well as the cost. I buy it by the big jug were as I buy other powders by the lb cans.
I like my 200gr nosler HP over 8.4gr PP which averages 1240s out of my 6" Storm Lake in the g20. It is an accurate load without the brass getting all banged up. I hope to take a deer this year with this combo.
I've been running/loading tame loads for the range in the G20...
But why the 350 primer? Does the mag primer give a better burn over the normal 300 with PP powder?
Is it possible to get a pressure spike with the 350 primers?
Quote from: supersonic on October 14 2013 11:43:39 AM MDT
Quote from: The_Shadow on October 13 2013 08:37:14 AM MDTJust remember that some of the commercial Power Pistol loadings, show the translucent/whitish gray flakes in their composition. I am still trying to figure out if they are there as a flash suppressant, identifier or modifier being used to adjust burn rates.
Try to separate these "mystery" flakes and test them. I would start by using a safe area (like the underside of a metal trash can lid, or a couple of cinder blocks) and pouring a small pile of PP from the can onto test area. Then, put the "mystery flakes" a few feet away in another small pile. Ignite both and see if you can tell any difference(s).
Next, I would use the remaining flakes to add to my own loads - starting charges, low-power, of course - and substitute, grain-for-grain, these flakes with your PP powder. Then check for differences by firing them. I would have someone video record you firing these in low light (along with an equal amount of rounds loaded to the same exact capacity of PP by itself) to see if, in fact this is a flash deterrent. If no differences can be detected, it is in all likelihood some kind of identifier. Depending on how "cooperative" the person at the other end of the phone is, I would then call the respective manufacturer and explain the "pulling of rounds" and the testing. Ask if the person could help you out by telling you what these flakes are (make sure you say it's for your own info only). Chances are - in my experience dealing with any manufacturers firearm-related - you will get a "We don't/can't give that kind of information out." And if a reason is offered, it will be one of 3 things: "It's a liability issue" "It's a proprietary issue" or "It's per company policy" .....BUT, seeing as you actually do these "pull downs" you are obviously very curious, so it can never hurt to ask. But, you may get lucky and your test(s) will confirm enough so that you won't even need to make that phone call in the first place. 8)
EDIT: I just noticed that in all the pictures you took of the flakes (looks like they are under a microscope), it seems as if some are just lighter in color than the others. But in the pic where you have the powder emptied into a pan, it looks like a fine, white powder is in there - completely separate from the flakes. Is that just an optical illusion due to the lighting or how the photo was taken? If this is a fine powder separate from the flakes, I'd like to see some "microscope images" of this stuff as well. Fine powder almost always equals flash deterrent. Identifiers (both BlueDot and RedDot are perfect examples) have - in the case of the 2 powders just mentioned - blue or red-colored flakes (respectively) in a ratio of about ~3:10.
What you are seeing is the light reflecting of the bottom of my well worn scale pan (35 years) there is no powder in that area. I take the picture at a full resolution, then use a zoom feature in a picture viewer, to examine things that are not as visible to the naked eye. Redline placed the ink pen in his pictures but those flakes are also visible in his pull-downs.
The commercial loadings listed you can see distinct flakes (slightly larger whitish/gray translucent flakes), this may be just an identifier for the non canister grade Power Pistol they are using, it may have some other properties as I mentioned. However loadings with the standard canister Power Pistol are close enough in performance...
Anyway Alliant is showing a "NEW BE-86" powder on there web site. http://www.alliantpowder.com/products/powder/be-86.aspx (http://www.alliantpowder.com/products/powder/be-86.aspx)
(http://www.alliantpowder.com/images/product_images/large/be-86_lg.jpg)
Just so others can understand the original listing of Power Pistol was "BE-84" also a derivative of Bulls-eye powder line hence the BE designation.
I have written Alliant several times for more information on the BE-86 and have not heard back once yet! :( I have a good feeling that this will be a good to excellent 10mm propellant powder. ;D