Ran a box of 165 grain JHP Underwood today through the S&W 1066 today and am glad I was not shooting my Glock 29!
When I started looking at the brass from the shoot today I had a number of rounds with the primers flattened and flowing, cases scored and bulged and saw clear overpressure signs with a number of the Underwood brass I picked up today. This box looks to be loaded way hot and was dangerously over pressure! My phone crapped out and I can't lay hands on my camera right now but if I had run these through the Glock 29 instead of my big S&W I'm not so sure I would have had a pleasant day.
Also seem the rounds seemed inconsistent in velocity the recoil brutal and the Underwood rounds today flat would not group in the S&W while the PMC 170 Grain JHP's I had on hand were grouping very well.
Been shooting Underwood for a while now (almost exclusively the 180 grain FMJ at the range) with out an issue but this particular box of the 165 JHP flat spooked me!
Post some pictures when you get a chance. I know the flattened primer term and what it looks like but am not familiar with the flowing term. If you still have some of that box, it may be worth sending a couple to The Shadow to see what the powder charge is like (unless you can pull the bullets).
I think by flowing he means deformed. Pics will help.
I shot some Underwood 165 grain fmj a few months ago and they were good. Are they loaded to the same pressures as the JHP?
Was this perhaps an older box before Kevin had adjusted the pressure?
Just thinking out loud here.
I'm still trying to figure out how all this stuff works. I don't think I have ever gotten a double-charged round but the NFP 155's are loaded extreme but don't really see signs.
Ascension, may I ask what recoil spring rate you are running in you S&W1066? ???
I suspect you are starting to see the bulge and slight "smile" at the base of the brass where the feed ramp section of the chamber of your barrel. The dreaded "SMILE" characterized by a distinct line, less case support at the fed ramp, can be formed from higher pressures and softer brass. In the case of over-pressure you may experience a case blow out! :-\
If you have any of those rounds left and want to know what's inside, I could do a pull-down documentation if you send it to me. Contact me via PM if you so decide.
Please try to post pictures if you can. 8)
Best regards! :D
Spring is a 20 pound. One round in particular the primer has only a tiny mark from the firing pin as the primer is flattened from the pressure and the area that was dimpled by the pin is slightly raised and looks flowed out almost like someone dropped a light coat of solder around the pin indent!
I have no "smiles" but the sides of the cases are scuffed from swelling. There is only some slight visible case bulging as the factory barrel in this particular pistol has very good case support.
The 170 grain PMC's I was also shooting showed none of this in that brass. This particular batch of Underwood seems really HOT and on the edge!
Will try to get some photos up today in particular of the round with that primer that "flowed".
Quote from: 4949shooter on October 12 2013 06:09:35 AM MDT
I think by flowing he means deformed. Pics will help.
I shot some Underwood 165 grain fmj a few months ago and they were good. Are they loaded to the same pressures as the JHP?
Was this perhaps an older box before Kevin had adjusted the pressure?
Just thinking out loud here.
I have had these two boxes of the JHP 165's for a little while now, the brass is marked Underwood not Star line so that are not that old. Only ran a few of the 165 JHP rounds to make certain they cycled properly as these were my carry rounds.
I have been running the light Priv stuff or the 185 grain FMJ Underwoods mostly on the range.
I had the S&W out to set the new adjustable sights so I ran several type rounds today.
Do you have a camera phone you can get pics? Send them to me if you can't get them to post.
Quote from: Ascension on October 12 2013 09:20:27 AM MDT
Spring is a 20 pound. One round in particular the primer has only a tiny mark from the firing pin as the primer is flattened from the pressure and the area that was dimpled by the pin is slightly raised and looks flowed out almost like someone dropped a light coat of solder around the pin indent!
I have no "smiles" but the sides of the cases are scuffed from swelling. There is only some slight visible case bulging as the factory barrel in this particular pistol has very good case support.
The 170 grain PMC's I was also shooting showed none of this in that brass. This particular batch of Underwood seems really HOT and on the edge!
Will try to get some photos up today in particular of the round with that primer that "flowed".
OK that explains more, what you are seeing is what is referred to as Primer wipe! The firing pin sort of gets trapped on the primer and the wipe mark occurs during ejection phase as the barrel drops down during the unlock phase.
Today's primer cups have been made thinner and softer for more reliable ignition with striker fired weapons. I have used some of my older primers (1988 vintage CCI) recently to duplicate some loading that exhibited that primer wipe situations and that situation didn't occur.
You might try a firing pin change out, but I don't think it will help.
Yes, casings that expand to fill the chambers fully can show stresses on the brass. Taking case measurements will show if just how much. If you did not have any cases stick in the chamber during the ejection cycle you are probably OK! Sometimes cases swell and remain swollen too long (usually slower burning powders) as ejection starts and the extractor over rides the case's ejection rim.
I don't know how old the 20lb spring is or how many cycles on it, but you could try a 22 lb to see if it helps with slide velocities.
Good luck! :D
Quote from: Intercooler on October 12 2013 09:42:29 AM MDT
Do you have a camera phone you can get pics? Send them to me if you can't get them to post.
My phone died yesterday I am about to go over and see if i can replace it. I will find my camera and use it though instead of the phone. Looking at the rims I was also seeing marks where the ejector was having a hard time because of the case swelling with this batch. I need to really go back and look hard at the Underwood brass from other shoots as the velocities listed are WAY above what the reload manual I have on 10mm states is max velocities with 800X for bullet weights!!
Stuff burns clean and hits hard but is it TOO HOT and over SAMMI spec?
There was also the issue with grouping in the 1066. It was shooting MUCH tighter groups with the PMC 170 than it was with the Underwood 165.
We had picked up a few boxes of Underwood .357 sig and ran it in a Glock 33 a while back. Not only was the recoil NUTS but we saw BIG time over pressure signs with those rounds ( flattened primers and smiles). It was bad enough that we were thankful we did not have a KABOOM and we both ( my son and I ) agreed to never run those Underwood rounds in .357 Sig again as they were WAY over pressure!! Never saw that kind of thing from the Underwood 10mm loads I have run till today and have some thinking to do on if I will continue to run the Underwood after this.
Recently Underwood has switched some components to include powders with the current supply dilemmas...Most recent "pull-downs" of the 135gr Sierra have shown LongShot vs. older loadings using the IMR800X loadings....
I don't know what's inside what you are shooting, but the pull-downs are just to show what is inside. Yes they are higher than current handloading manual data. The question is are they within the SAAMI pressure MAP for commercial Ammo? Seeing that there are NO Warnings on the packages I would say they would have to be inside that criteria as set if he is having his loads pressure tested.
Quote from: The_Shadow on October 12 2013 10:42:15 AM MDT
Recently Underwood has switched some components to include powders with the current supply dilemmas...Most recent "pull-downs" of the 135gr Sierra have shown LongShot vs. older loadings using the IMR800X loadings....
I don't know what's inside what you are shooting, but the pull-downs are just to show what is inside. Yes they are higher than current handloading manual data. The question is are they within the SAAMI pressure MAP for commercial Ammo? Seeing that there are NO Warnings on the packages I would say they would have to be inside that criteria as set if he is having his loads pressure tested.
The 165 Underwoods are advertized at 1400 the max load velocity for 155 according to the manual I have using 800X is just under 1300, that is a substantial difference in pressure and velocity!!
I still have a second unopened box of the 165's from the same batch and it would indeed be interesting to see what is in these. My Son and I talked about pulling a round or 2 down if we don't I will send a couple your way.
The box of Underwood 357 Sig we got was way way over the top and we will not run that round again.
Ascension, I actually did a pull-down of some Underwood 357Sig that blew up a KKM Barrel and Glock pistol.
here is the link to what was found inside those...they may have been bullet set back also that led to the failure.
http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-ammo-pull-downs/underwood-357sig-125gr-bonded-fmj-pull-down/ (http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-ammo-pull-downs/underwood-357sig-125gr-bonded-fmj-pull-down/)
So yes those 357 Sigs of yours could be just that hot!
As handloaders we know you don't get anything for nothing! If we push it can push back!
Quote from: The_Shadow on October 12 2013 11:36:18 AM MDT
Ascension, I actually did a pull-down of some Underwood 357Sig that blew up a KKM Barrel and Glock pistol.
here is the link to what was found inside those...they may have been bullet set back also that led to the failure.
http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-ammo-pull-downs/underwood-357sig-125gr-bonded-fmj-pull-down/ (http://10mm-firearms.com/factory-ammo-pull-downs/underwood-357sig-125gr-bonded-fmj-pull-down/)
So yes those 357 Sigs of yours could be just that hot!
As handloaders we know you don't get anything for nothing! If we push it can push back!
The "push back" is what I'm worried about as I am a musician and kinda need to keep the hands intact!!
You know what I mean :D
(http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/7631/glockglove.jpg)
Quote from: Ascension on October 12 2013 09:30:10 AM MDT
Quote from: 4949shooter on October 12 2013 06:09:35 AM MDT
I think by flowing he means deformed. Pics will help.
I shot some Underwood 165 grain fmj a few months ago and they were good. Are they loaded to the same pressures as the JHP?
Was this perhaps an older box before Kevin had adjusted the pressure?
Just thinking out loud here.
I have had these two boxes of the JHP 165's for a little while now, the brass is marked Underwood not Star line so that are not that old. Only ran a few of the 165 JHP rounds to make certain they cycled properly as these were my carry rounds.
I have been running the light Priv stuff or the 185 grain FMJ Underwoods mostly on the range.
I had the S&W out to set the new adjustable sights so I ran several type rounds today.
Good point. So much for that theory.
From the ballistics sheets it appears the Underwood hollowpoints are loaded hotter than the fmj rounds, or they are at least in the 165 grain weight. Perhaps Kevin should tone the JHP rounds back a notch to mirror the fmj rounds. And the fmj 's were far from weak!
Intercooler, you might want to make Kevin aware of this thread?
I gave up telling him. My latest 245's had one not fully seated but the solution wasn't what I expected.
Quote from: Intercooler on October 13 2013 05:32:30 AM MDT
I gave up telling him. My latest 245's had one not fully seated but the solution wasn't what I expected.
PM if you don't mind.
Quote from: Ascension on October 11 2013 11:11:09 PM MDT
Been shooting Underwood for a while now (almost exclusively the 180 grain FMJ at the range) with out an issue but this particular box of the 165 JHP flat spooked me!
Sorry to read this Ascension. I just joined this site after picking up my first 10mm (Glock 20) last week. I got it for a woods gun. After a lot of reading I bought some Underwood 135 JHP's and 180 TMJ's (what i call FMJ's).
have you had any issues with the 180's or 135's? Mine were purchased last week and delivered friday.
Thanks
Quote from: tmwtrfwler on October 13 2013 07:36:30 AM MDT
Quote from: Ascension on October 11 2013 11:11:09 PM MDT
Been shooting Underwood for a while now (almost exclusively the 180 grain FMJ at the range) with out an issue but this particular box of the 165 JHP flat spooked me!
Sorry to read this Ascension. I just joined this site after picking up my first 10mm (Glock 20) last week. I got it for a woods gun. After a lot of reading I bought some Underwood 135 JHP's and 180 TMJ's (what i call FMJ's).
have you had any issues with the 180's or 135's? Mine were purchased last week and delivered friday.
Thanks
Welcome, tmwtrfwler.
There's a world of difference between the TMJ and FMJ bullets. FMJ is a thick copper cup with the lead core swaged into it, with an exposed lead base. The TMJ is a cast or swaged lead bullet, with copper (or other metal) electro-plated onto it. TMJ's are essentially a cast/swaged lead bullet, only with a "different" type of lube, and are usually sized similarly to cast (usually .001" or greater oversize). TMJ is a misnomer, in that they aren't jacketed, technically.
Quote from: DM1906 on October 13 2013 12:52:07 PM MDT
Quote from: tmwtrfwler on October 13 2013 07:36:30 AM MDT
Quote from: Ascension on October 11 2013 11:11:09 PM MDT
Been shooting Underwood for a while now (almost exclusively the 180 grain FMJ at the range) with out an issue but this particular box of the 165 JHP flat spooked me!
Sorry to read this Ascension. I just joined this site after picking up my first 10mm (Glock 20) last week. I got it for a woods gun. After a lot of reading I bought some Underwood 135 JHP's and 180 TMJ's (what i call FMJ's).
have you had any issues with the 180's or 135's? Mine were purchased last week and delivered friday.
Thanks
Welcome, tmwtrfwler.
There's a world of difference between the TMJ and FMJ bullets. FMJ is a thick copper cup with the lead core swaged into it, with an exposed lead base. The TMJ is a cast or swaged lead bullet, with copper (or other metal) electro-plated onto it. TMJ's are essentially a cast/swaged lead bullet, only with a "different" type of lube, and are usually sized similarly to cast (usually .001" or greater oversize). TMJ is a misnomer, in that they aren't jacketed, technically.
Good to know! I'd not heard of TMJ's until I was looking at Underwood's site. I have grown up shooting deer and waterfowl but got hooked on pistols and target/defensive shooting a few years ago. I don't reload so my bullet knowledge (and components) knowledge is lagging compared to most on this site.
I googled the difference and one guy had a good analogy. He said a FMJ was like a copper condom over lead. Makes sense!
Thanks for educating me. I look forward to learning more.
Have you any experience with the 135's or 180 TMJ's from Underwood?
Quote from: tmwtrfwler on October 13 2013 02:06:54 PM MDT
Quote from: DM1906 on October 13 2013 12:52:07 PM MDT
Quote from: tmwtrfwler on October 13 2013 07:36:30 AM MDT
Quote from: Ascension on October 11 2013 11:11:09 PM MDT
Been shooting Underwood for a while now (almost exclusively the 180 grain FMJ at the range) with out an issue but this particular box of the 165 JHP flat spooked me!
Sorry to read this Ascension. I just joined this site after picking up my first 10mm (Glock 20) last week. I got it for a woods gun. After a lot of reading I bought some Underwood 135 JHP's and 180 TMJ's (what i call FMJ's).
have you had any issues with the 180's or 135's? Mine were purchased last week and delivered friday.
Thanks
Welcome, tmwtrfwler.
There's a world of difference between the TMJ and FMJ bullets. FMJ is a thick copper cup with the lead core swaged into it, with an exposed lead base. The TMJ is a cast or swaged lead bullet, with copper (or other metal) electro-plated onto it. TMJ's are essentially a cast/swaged lead bullet, only with a "different" type of lube, and are usually sized similarly to cast (usually .001" or greater oversize). TMJ is a misnomer, in that they aren't jacketed, technically.
Good to know! I'd not heard of TMJ's until I was looking at Underwood's site. I have grown up shooting deer and waterfowl but got hooked on pistols and target/defensive shooting a few years ago. I don't reload so my bullet knowledge (and components) knowledge is lagging compared to most on this site.
I googled the difference and one guy had a good analogy. He said a FMJ was like a copper condom over lead. Makes sense!
Thanks for educating me. I look forward to learning more.
Have you any experience with the 135's or 180 TMJ's from Underwood?
My experience with Underwood is very limited, compared to many folks here. I roll my own.
Good to know! I'd not heard of TMJ's until I was looking at Underwood's site. I have grown up shooting deer and waterfowl but got hooked on pistols and target/defensive shooting a few years ago. I don't reload so my bullet knowledge (and components) knowledge is lagging compared to most on this site.
I googled the difference and one guy had a good analogy. He said a FMJ was like a copper condom over lead. Makes sense!
Thanks for educating me. I look forward to learning more.
Have you any experience with the 135's or 180 TMJ's from Underwood?
[/quote]
I have not bought any of the 135's, but I have shot several hundred rounds of the Underwood 180gr TMJ with no problems and no signs of over pressure. Same with the 165gr TMJ. I also have a couple hundred rounds each of the 155, 165, and 180gr, JHP, but haven't fired any of that at all.
I am shooting an S&W 1006, so YMMV.
I have ran a few boxes of the 185 FMJ Underwood without an issue. It was only about 5 or so rounds the one box of the 165 JHP's that seemed overly hot.
Today I went out with a buddy after Church and ran about 20 rounds of the 165 JHP out of another box I had without an issue that I could tell. However we were in a pasture and I was not able to find a single round of the brass ( and the reason I shot only the 2 mags then my junk steel case .380 and 9 mm cheap stuff today) .
got to the range today with my new Glock 20 gen 4 and a box of Underwood 180 gr TMJ's. Man those were so much better than the PNC 200gr I shot over the weekend. They provided a noticable difference in how accurate I was with them and the feel of each shot. These bullets are great. No issues, no FTF / FTE, couldn't be happier. All brass looked good at first glance.
tmwtrfwler, welcome to the forum! What RSA (recoil rod/spring assembly) are you using? Factory stock or other? ???
Quote from: The_Shadow on October 15 2013 07:24:33 PM MDT
tmwtrfwler, welcome to the forum! What RSA (recoil rod/spring assembly) are you using? Factory stock or other? ???
All stock. the brass ejected normally as expected. of course in an indoor range it's hard to tell exactly but none came back at me.
Thanks for your response, just making observations. Many have had FTF issues with the gen4's, glad to hear yours is running with the Underwood stuff. 8)
i did have a FTF issue with the PNC 200 gr. as outlined in my previous posts in this thread. That said, it was 2 of 10 mag while only having loaded 5 rounds. It may have been my hand hitting the slide release or it could've been the gun? don't know? But today no issues at all. so I've only got 100 rounds down range and can summarize: PNC - 2 FTF / Underwood 0 issues at all.
I've got a lot more shooting to day before I say it was a legit FTF though.
I have had a few "hot" Underwood 165 and 180 TMJ & JHP rounds myself. :)
Out of the 150+ I've fired, only one really smiled bad (the one in these pictures). I have 5-10 that have light creases... the rest I have reloaded 4-6 times each at full power (but not nuclear) levels and they are still holding strong! The only way I can justify this is that there are a few that slipped through with a little extra 800x, being the wonderful powder it is to meter and all.
(http://www.smugmug.com/photos/i-HfhnBv2/0/L/i-HfhnBv2-L.jpg)
(http://www.smugmug.com/photos/i-SjJHDpK/0/M/i-SjJHDpK-M.jpg)
(http://www.smugmug.com/photos/i-5RsK9br/0/M/i-5RsK9br-M.jpg)
(http://www.smugmug.com/photos/i-Nf8djfn/0/M/i-Nf8djfn-M.jpg)
just as a follow up since i've been mia on the web recently. ran a box of underwood 180 tmj's sunday and they were gtg. love this gun.
I do not disagree with what was said, I was not there. However, I have shot hundreds of rounds of Underwood 10mm 165gr, which clocks out of my 4.6" Storm Lake barreled G29 at 1,440 fps. I have never had an issue. They are hot, recoil is hard and they make a lot of noise, but no signs on the brass of high pressure. On a Glock you can see high pressure by the primer flow into the striker chamber, which is OK, but it the striker mark starts to disappear that would indicate higher pressures. Like I said, none of these were found. In fact, that is my carry load in 10mm. I have also shot over a thousand rounds of Underwood's 357 sig that are rated on the box at 1,475fps. Out of my 4.6" KKM barreled G32 I have not seen any over pressure issue. Yes they are at the top level of pressure and kick harder than any other 357 sig and are quite loud. I also carry the Underwood 357 sig with the Sierra 125 gr bullet. I am not saying that you did not have a problem with either a bad batch, or your gun does not match the pressure of the round. I just registered for this forum to let people know about my experience.
pghjim, Welcome to the forum! :D