So, have been jonesing for this pistol for the last year.... Finally got the money saved up and picked it up (VZ tacticall II) Lovely!! Went out and shot it. Almost every round the slide would lock back, though it was the mag release, but it was not engaging. A heavy rap on the back of the slide would usually have it go back into battery. It thought it was just the way 1911's are at first. After 3 mags (of Armscor factory ammo) I dedicded to field strip it. Got the slide off but the recoil guide rod, spring and reverse bushing would not budge. It took a couple of smacks on the recoil rod on the muzzle end to break it free so the assembly could be removed.
Close inspection showed that the rearward portion of the dust cover of the slide and the retaining lip on the reverse bushing were peening together causing the whole assembly to lock together. After 3 mags it has peened enough that I couldn't even put the recoil assembly back into the slide.
Anyone have this problem before. Its pretty odd, I have never heard of it and I have done some searching and can't find anything on it.
In anycase, RIA sent out an RMA and its on its way back, they quoted 3 weeks. Maybe they will change the ambi safety to just a Right handed safety... (I wrote a little note asking please please.... :) If they don't I already have a safety to install, just need to get the correct length sear pin.....
Any chance of some pictures?
Beepy, that condition does seem odd, and you are better off letting RIA make you a satisfied customer! It seems that there is something that is not quite machined to the right tolerance to move freely at the full recoil travel!
Sorry, no pics. Its in a box on its way to Armscor...... I was looking at it thinking that I could file all the peened material at first, but there is something not quite right so off to RIA
I have an RIA 10mm. Fun to shoot and accurate, however every 5th round or so locks the slide back. Tried standard 10mm (Armscor etc) and Underwood. Doesn't make any difference. What is the best spring to put in this to achieve reliability? Does anyone have this gun dialed in yet?
First is what about your grip, could you be riding the slide stop with you hands? ???
It could be a bounce induced by recoil and may not be indicative of the recoil system...
Take some firm grip shots, insuring your hand is not touching the slide stop even in recoil. If you still get slide lock it it may be something else. :-\
Limp wrist can be checked by having someone else try to fire it. You say it's your first 1911. Have you shot any other semi auto pistols?
Although your problem seems to be the manufacturing.
Quote from: gandog56 on December 15 2013 07:36:12 AM MST
Limp wrist can be checked by having someone else try to fire it.
I still haven't decided yet if I limp-wristing is a problem with my 10mm Kimber Eclipse Custom II (full-size, all-steel) or not. I still get occasional failures-to-chamber (usually bullet up, against the top-rear of the barrel, stovepipes), and also occasional premature lockbacks (which COULD be caused by the fact that I prefer to have my strong thumb floating out in the air, away from the grip panel). I've been shooting with both very firm and very relaxed grips, to see if the failure rate differs for those two grips. I shoot DoubleTap 150gr, 180gr, and 200gr JHP's (mixed together in each mag).
My preference is definitely to use a very relaxed grip ... MUCH less of a jolt, and more accurate for me. My suspicion has been that my 10mm's slide cycles so quickly that grip doesn't matter, but I might be wrong, since almost everyone believes that a very firm grip works best. I'm just going to keep testing both, and maybe eventually I'll know for sure.
Slide velocities do have an affect on the way these things work or don't work. The recoil spring rate and other items on the 1911 styles will work to control the forces of the slide impulse. But checking other factors that may be induced by the shooter is the first step.
A change in ammunition, with less impulse may show some better results, the DT and UW ammo runs with very high recoil impulses. Using something like CCI blazer or Remington with less impulse to test with may help determine function issues are ammo related.
When S&W was developing their 10xx series the found the the slide lock was actually bouncing, in the slow motion play back video. They made the locking notch slightly bigger to eliminate that issue according to what I read.
After some more Bing searches, I came across this and will try some filing because I have a little copper on my slide stop:
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=374990
I tried different ammo and believe my grip was fairly firm. I do shoot left handed, so not sure if I am inducing the slide lock or not. Hopefully a little filing will cure this.
Quote from: Bugs66 on December 15 2013 12:19:36 PM MST
After some more Bing searches, I came across this and will try some filing because I have a little copper on my slide stop:
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=374990
Good find ... that DOES indicate that the inner slide-stop lobe was pushed up by a cooper-jacketed bullet. Contact with that lobe by the bullet can also (in addition to a too-large lobe) be caused by very wide-nosed bullets, and also by the magazine design, or by a too-weak mag spring.
Have you tried a different magazine? I'd eliminate other factors before cutting metal! :o
There was some discussion of placing the magazine inside the frame with the slide removed and the slide stop in place to check function and bullet placement.
The magazine's lips may be spread out, sometimes they need to be reshaped, rolled back into place.
As soon as got mine I fully cleaned it; then I installed a 28# mainspring, 18# recoil spring, and Wilson flat bottom firing pin stop. I have not had any problems except the low earth orbit brass. I'm using Metalform mags from RIA. CMC Shooting Star mags would not work at all; continually refused to lock back. Mine eats all ammo I've used so far. I've run Hornady,Sierra,Nosler,and PowerBond bullets at up to 1293fps with Starline brass. Now close to a thousand rounds. RIA is absolutely great to deal with; they changed out the ambi safety on mine under warranty and payed shipping both ways. I'm happy.
I have tried different mags, the included (Metalform?) 8rd mag as well as new Tripp Research Cobra 8rd mags (very nice). No difference. Tonight I put a feeler gauge between the smallest gap of the slide lock and a typical 10mm round nose FMJ. A .002 feeler gauge barely fit. I filed away at least .002 more to increase. Will see how that goes on next trip to range.
I also have a stock Colt Govt. 45. I looked over that and see quite a bit more clearance on the slide stop than the RIA 10mm gives.
Thanks all for tips and advice.
Quote from: Bugs66 on December 15 2013 10:20:49 PM MST
I also have a stock Colt Govt. 45. I looked over that and see quite a bit more clearance on the slide stop than the RIA 10mm gives.
That IS amazing! The .45ACP bullet radius is a lot larger than the 10mm radius. And the .45ACP overall cartridge length is supposedly slightly greater than for the 10mm cartridge. One would THINK that the clearance would be noticeably larger in the 10mm.
Did you happen to measure the clearance with a 10mm Gold Dot JHP bullet? That bullet seemed to have the widest nose of anything I ever shot, and I've always suspected it would be the one most prone to premature slide-lockback.
Quote from: The_Shadow on December 15 2013 09:44:14 AM MST
When S&W was developing their 10xx series the found the the slide lock was actually bouncing, in the slow motion play back video. They made the locking notch slightly bigger to eliminate that issue according to what I read.
That's a VERY interesting piece of information! I hadn't heard anything about that before. Seems like (for 1911's) either the plunger spring needs to be stronger, or the external portion or the slidelock needs to have a small notch where it contacts the plunger pin when it's in the lower position. Anyone know if stiffer plunger springs are available anywhere? (I wouldn't mind having more resistance to motion in both my slidestop AND in my thumb safety).
I have the exact opposite problem. My Fusion Firearms 1911 the plunger is so strong its very hard to put the slide stop back in. I have to hold it back with a tiny screwdriver so I don't leave a big old idiot mark on the pistol.
Well after filing a few thousands off my slide stop and tested, still had same problem. After 2 or 3 rounds slide locks back. So I compared a stock 1911 slide stop to the RIA. Appears quite a bit difference in projection. The attached photos shows .417 vs .461 for the RIA. I function checked the 1911 slide stop in the RIA and works fine. I filed my RIA down to .425 and will give it a try and report back.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Mine also had the same problem. It only happened when I fire full power JHP. Was fine with FBI fmj loads put in 26# main spring, flat bottom firing pin stop, and Wilson combat slide stop. Problem solved. Didn't ping dust cover. I got lucky. Did you get yours back from armscor? What did the do to solve problem?
Maybe call Armscor. I had my RIA 10mm that never locked back, even when empty, they send me a new slide stop and everything was good. This is not the same problem as you, but thinking that they would help you.
Also I have newer model and they seem to have the springs stronger now, based on others posts and I have not had issues.
Mine did the same thing I called up Rock Island armory they sent me new guide rod spring that was heavier. After that the only problem I've had is it shoots low.
give him a call they're good to work with.
Quote from: Mike_Fontenot on December 15 2013 09:20:07 AM MST
I still haven't decided yet if my limp-wristing is a problem with my 10mm Kimber Eclipse Custom II (full-size, all-steel) or not.
Just an update: My 10mm Eclipse has been running perfectly for the last three range trips. The problems were caused by other issues ... poorly filed extractor, ejector too long (and maybe too loose), and maybe some other stuff . Now, it actually seems to run most reliably with the 18.5lb recoil spring that Kimber ships their 10mm guns with, AND with a very relaxed grip (contrary to all conventional wisdom). I THINK the relaxed grip results in more of the recoil going into frame motion, with less recoil going to slide motion with respect to the frame ... i.e., it slows the rearward slide motion down a bit, which in a 10mm is a GOOD thing. And the relatively light recoil spring also slows the forward slide motion down a bit, which is also a good thing (gives the feeding operation a little more time to happen). That's a very welcome conclusion for me, because I MUCH prefer to shoot with a very relaxed grip.
I finally finished dialing in my RIA 10mm and thought would report in. So after filing my slide stop as previously shown, my problem still existed. I would shoot 3-4 rounds and the slide would lock back. High power or standard power rounds, didn't matter. Then by accident I discovered that if I left one round out of the magazine, it would function correctly. ???? I wasn't sure why. I have a factory 8rd mag and 2 Tripp Research Cobra 9rd mags. All mags behaved the same.
So I then decided to try what others have done, increase the spring force and also install the square firing pin stop.
I went with the Wolf 20lb spring:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/121962/wolff-recoil-spring-1911-government-20-lb
And EGW square firing pin stop:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/510217/egw-firing-pin-stop-oversize-1911-9mm-luger-38-super-series-80-blue
I spent about 20 minutes filing the FPS to fit using regular and Swiss files to finish.
After two range sessions, the problem seems to have been solved. No more unexpected lock backs. Tried full power and regular power ammo. Tried all mags. All good.
So not sure if the spring for FPS fixed it or both. Just glad it is fixed. Great gun to shoot and having a lot of fun with it.
Thanks for the suggestions and ideas!
I bought a RIA 10mm used for $500 he said it had never been fired(I now don't believe him) it came with two stock mags. First trip to the range I had countless ftf's due to nosedives, slide wouldn't lock back and numerous failures to return to battery. I ordered a couple wilson combat mags and polished the feed ramp which solved the nosedives and with the wilson mags it would lock back with one round left then wouldn't lock back with the last round. I later discovered that my hollowpoints would bind within the mag. I ordered one tripp cobra mag to see how they work it fed my hollowpoints and locks back on a empty mag every time(I ordered more) I still had problems with returning to battery I increased the recoil spring to a 18 1/2 lb it helped but didn't solve it I disassembled the gun and just put the slide and frame together and I could feel it getting caught on the disconnector so I filed it to smooth the angle a little until I could get the slide past it with little resistance and now the gun runs flawless.
Quote from: 10mmfan on April 28 2014 11:43:16 PM MDT
I bought a RIA 10mm used for $500 he said it had never been fired(I now don't believe him) it came with two stock mags. First trip to the range I had countless ftf's due to nosedives, slide wouldn't lock back and numerous failures to return to battery. I ordered a couple wilson combat mags and polished the feed ramp which solved the nosedives and with the wilson mags it would lock back with one round left then wouldn't lock back with the last round. I later discovered that my hollowpoints would bind within the mag. I ordered one tripp cobra mag to see how they work it fed my hollowpoints and locks back on a empty mag every time(I ordered more) I still had problems with returning to battery I increased the recoil spring to a 18 1/2 lb it helped but didn't solve it I disassembled the gun and just put the slide and frame together and I could feel it getting caught on the disconnector so I filed it to smooth the angle a little until I could get the slide past it with little resistance and now the gun runs flawless.
Hmmm, since I reload, I would probably just set those HP bullets back a bit and see if they would stop binding.
10mmfan, you said you put an 18.5 recoil spring in. That's what most of the older ones shipped wit, according to Armscor CS. Ryan said around June/July of last yr, they were shipping 20# recoil springs. When my 18.5 spring was in, the slide was sloppy loose and was causing the reverse plug to actally bounce in and out. Damaged the plug and had slight peening on the slide pocket where the plug ears orinted. Ryan sent me a 20# spring and a plug. Solved all my problems. Steve
I had been told it was a 16lb by a local gun shop the wolff 18 1/2lb was longer and felt heavier. I got mine last January so I had an early one.
The Armscor customer service has been very helpful. I had sent several emails with questions before I had actually received mine. And, after receiving and shooting it, some of the problems were solved by some very helpful guys on the 1911 fofum as well as Ryan at Armscor.Steve
Quote from: 10mmfan on April 29 2014 01:57:07 PM MDT
I had been told it was a 16lb by a local gun shop the wolff 18 1/2lb was longer and felt heavier.
I doubt that was really a 16lb spring ... I can't imagine that any manufacturer would ship a 10mm 1911 with a 16lb recoil spring. I've found that new recoil springs lose some length (about a half-inch) on the first trip to the range, and then they usually stabilize after that.
Most 10mm 1911 shooters seem to prefer 20lb recoil springs. Mine (a Kimber Eclipse) must be unusual, because it seems to run most reliably (using my DoubleTap carry ammo) with an 18.5lb spring (same as Kimber ships it with). I also use an unusually light 18lb hammer spring (aka the "mainspring") in my Kimber ... I've never had a light-strike with it, even though I still have an extra-extra-heavy firing pin spring in it that I put in when I was testing some VERY heavy hammer springs.
I've had good luck with the 18 1/2 lb I also have a spare 18 1/2 lb a 20 and 22. I have a 26lb mainspring in the RIA and I put in a flat firing pin stop.
Springs I have lots of. When I ordered my Fusion Firearms custom 10mm, they threw in different wpoundage springs to "fine tune" the pistol. But the set that was installed seemed to work fine.
Still on a quest to find an RIA Tac II 10mm. Need to keep them springs I think.
Word on RIA forum from a guy that physically stop at Armscor in Nevada was 10mm hits the states about now. (End of April)
If true, should show on gun Genie or local dealer in 1-2 weeks.
Quote from: gandog56 on April 30 2014 07:09:28 PM MDT
Springs I have lots of. When I ordered my Fusion Firearms custom 10mm, they threw in different wpoundage springs to "fine tune" the pistol. But the set that was installed seemed to work fine.
Still on a quest to find an RIA Tac II 10mm. Need to keep them springs I think.
Did the Fusion manual give guideance with the spring assortment? Seems as there is a lot of trial and error. Steve
I had the same problem with mine. It even rapid fired a couple times. Took it apart just like they said and it wouldn't go back together. If you are dealing with Ryan call and talked to him. He told me 3 weeks to and I told him This is a brand new gun not even 30 rounds through it. He put it in front of the line and I had it back in a week. I had the safety swapped out to so I could put my Crimson's on it. It doesn't like 1.260 ammo ether 1.250 it loves ? I got some DoubleTap 235gr and I'm going to try and bust a hog with it Tomorrow. Good Luck I haven't had a problem with mine since I got it back. You can get a extra magazine for $24.00 and they will stick it in the box with it. Most 1911 10mm magazines will work. I have a Delta Elite and the mag's work in both guns.
Quote from: harleyhopper on April 30 2014 08:22:24 PM MDT
Quote from: gandog56 on April 30 2014 07:09:28 PM MDT
Springs I have lots of. When I ordered my Fusion Firearms custom 10mm, they threw in different wpoundage springs to "fine tune" the pistol. But the set that was installed seemed to work fine.
Still on a quest to find an RIA Tac II 10mm. Need to keep them springs I think.
Did the Fusion manual give guideance with the spring assortment? Seems as there is a lot of trial and error. Steve
Not really. But like I said, the reloads I shoot and the springs that were installed seemed to work fine. He told me what poundage springs was in the gun, but I forgot what it was.
Hey gandog56
I just saw a 10mm rail Armscor at cabelas. Wanted 749.99
Or gunbroker I almost bought one $600 no rail though
Thats a good price. I paid 640 approx. Dealer was asking 710 for it
Quote from: 10mmfan on May 02 2014 12:41:46 PM MDT
Or gunbroker I almost bought one $600 no rail though
Don't want a rail. First of all, the fiber optic pipe works great in daytime. For nights I like my Crimson Trace grren laser grips.
Quote from: gandog56 on May 04 2014 01:29:33 PM MDT
Quote from: 10mmfan on May 02 2014 12:41:46 PM MDT
Or gunbroker I almost bought one $600 no rail though
Don't want a rail. First of all, the fiber optic pipe works great in daytime. For nights I like my Crimson Trace grren laser grips.
I actually replaced the fiber optic with a white dot and blacked out the rear sights to speed up aim time.
My Fusion Firearms 10mm has the pipe, I really like it. But if I wanted a night sight instead of the Crimson Trace laser grips I put on it, I would get some tritium ones.