Guys;
Just found this sight and couldn't be happier! I am new to the 10mm but not to shooting. I rented a Glock 20 about 6 mos. ago and was hooked with the first shot. It also changed my mind about Glocks, which I shot about 10 years ago and swore I would never have one or shoot another. I have a brand new Glock 20 Gen 4 full size as of a week ago.
My question for everyone is; why isn't this magnificent round in broader use? I know the money aspect for some and the weak wrist for others. But for God's sake you non-10 owners; grow some brass?
I look forward to all of your company.
Pat
Welcome!
The 10 is gaining ground in some respects. DW brought back the RZ-10 and RIA introduced their 10MM Tactical.
I have three 10MM, a DW CBOB, Elite Match and an RIA. They are pretty much all I shoot these days. My 45s, 40s and 9mms just gather dust.
But, I'm a handloader, so the price of ammo is pretty much the same for all of them. If I had to purchase factory 10MM ammo to feed them, I don't know if I would still love them as much.
You know....
There are folk that prefer the .38 Sp over the .357 Mag
Go figure right ? ! ?
Welcome to the world of 10mm...It is what it is...Perfect! 8)
Hey Buckeye, welcome aboard! To answer your question, as to why the 'Mighty 10' isn't widely endorsed stems from a number of factors, and some misconceptions.
Where do I begin? [1] First off; it was claimed to be "too powerful" to allow for any fast follow-up shots [nonsense]. Anyone who owns, or shoots the 10 millimeter will readily dispel this myth.
The 'naysayers' also [2] attest to the [fact] it batters gun frames into 'peened submission'. Firing 'nuclear loads' in a 1911-style pistol, which has not been properly 'set-up' for this purpose will obviously become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Revolvers can also quickly 'give-up-the-ghost' when fed a diet of constant 'nitro loads'.
[3] Too powerful, in it's original incarnation for 'self-defense'. The answer: Is yes and no, depends on the application [this contradiction in terms was the reason the round was first adopted by the FBI (after the Miami shootout), and then; later substituted for the 'weaker' .40 S&W]. Translation: a very utilitarian round with an extended power range.
Myth number [4] the caliber has a very limited 'cult-following' [Ted Nugent among other notables.], and very few manufacturers show an interest it. [Glock has always made pistols in this chambering]. A number of other larger manufacturers have, and still make handguns for it: AMT, CZ, Kimber, Colt, S&W, EAA, and Rock Island Armory. I believe, that if Springfield, FN, Steyr, and HK marketed pistols for the 10mm, then the .40 S&W would be the new 'also-ran'.
Another argument [5] is, that it is a 'handloaders' only affair. Not true, a lot of ammo concerns make excellent fodder in 10mm. But to truly wring-out the best ergonomics from the round, then obviously 'rolling-your-own' makes the most sense.
[6] Almost every gun magazine [every month?] features a cover article on the lastest/newest 1911 in .45 ACP, this constantly eclipses any real, positive press about the 10mm.
Plus, [7] I feel that a lot of gunwriters have a natural repugnance towards the caliber. Which, I really don't understand. Anyway, that's my short-list of answers to your question.
What Zephyr said! :D
+1
and welcome!!
Couldnt state any more eloquently.
Welcome!
Too many shooters are intimidated by the 10mm. Also, it was used by a few law enforcement agencies early on, and then lost ground to the .40 S&W, which was more practical for the law enforcement shooter (smaller size, less recoil).
My guess is...if the 10mm had caught on with LE agencies it would be a much more popular round today. As it stands, the 10m has a "cult" following, though I agree this excellent cartridge has been gaining some ground as of late.
Quote from: Buckeye 50 on September 11 2013 06:42:47 PM MDT
I have a brand new Glock 20 Gen 4 full size as of a week ago.
My sympathies......J/K :P
Glock has yet to make any model which fits in my small short fingered hand, but you like it, good for you. Some of the reasons for it not being that popular is there just weren't a whole lot of them made. Ammo cost and availability can be prohibitive. (But since I reload, that is not a problem for me). There are a lot more .40 cal S&W's out there, which have a lot less recoil, so the girlie men like it better. Us manly men know 10mm rules.
P.S. my 10mm pistols are both 1911's. Feel much better in my hand.
The 40S&W got in the way. When loaded to +P rating, the 40S&W is right near the 10mm.
Then you have ammo price and availability. When the average shooter goes to buy a gun, most shops and ranges don't have 10mm ammo in stock. And when they do, it is significantly more expensive than 40S&W or 45ACP or 9mm. So, 10mm is relegated to cult status.
Thanks to the internet, ammo is available and price is reasonable for the performance. My 10mm's are relegated to second line self defense (I use a Ruger SP101 to get to my 10mm guns)
The 10mm has such great ability to cover most all situations one could need a gun for.
Quote from: Zephyr on September 12 2013 07:22:49 PM MDT
Hey Buckeye, welcome aboard! To answer your question, as to why the 'Mighty 10' isn't widely endorsed stems from a number of factors, and some misconceptions.
Where do I begin? [1] First off; it was claimed to be "too powerful" to allow for any fast follow-up shots [nonsense]. Anyone who owns, or shoots the 10 millimeter will readily dispel this myth.
The 'naysayers' also [2] attest to the [fact] it batters gun frames into 'peened submission'. Firing 'nuclear loads' in a 1911-style pistol, which has not been properly 'set-up' for this purpose will obviously become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Revolvers can also quickly 'give-up-the-ghost' when fed a diet of constant 'nitro loads'.
[3] Too powerful, in it's original incarnation for 'self-defense'. The answer: Is yes and no, depends on the application [this contradiction in terms was the reason the round was first adopted by the FBI (after the Miami shootout), and then; later substituted for the 'weaker' .40 S&W]. Translation: a very utilitarian round with an extended power range.
Myth number [4] the caliber has a very limited 'cult-following' [Ted Nugent among other notables.], and very few manufacturers show an interest it. [Glock has always made pistols in this chambering]. A number of other larger manufacturers have, and still make handguns for it: AMT, CZ, Kimber, Colt, S&W, EAA, and Rock Island Armory. I believe, that if Springfield, FN, Steyr, and HK marketed pistols for the 10mm, then the .40 S&W would be the new 'also-ran'.
Another argument [5] is, that it is a 'handloaders' only affair. Not true, a lot of ammo concerns make excellent fodder in 10mm. But to truly wring-out the best ergonomics from the round, then obviously 'rolling-your-own' makes the most sense.
[6] Almost every gun magazine [every month?] features a cover article on the lastest/newest 1911 in .45 ACP, this constantly eclipses any real, positive press about the 10mm.
Plus, [7] I feel that a lot of gunwriters have a natural repugnance towards the caliber. Which, I really don't understand. Anyway, that's my short-list of answers to your question.
Nice outline of the 10mm dilemma. I have some comments:
[1] It IS too powerful for career people who are required to carry a pistol but don't shoot but a few times a year, at best. But, most guns will be too powerful if you don't shoot it to a point at which you overcome the flinches and master your technique.
[2] I have heard this too, but have no evidence to show this is true.
[3] Over-penetration is always a concern. But I would like the option to have as powerful a load if the situation might call for it. I currently favor the 357 magnum strategy: a fast and lighter bullet that will cause a significant shock wave in the body to tear tissue, but not over-penetrate. I watched a program where an ex-marine shot a military ball 45ACP round into a car with 2 dummies in the front seats. He shot it facing the driver door at about 20 feet. the round went through the driver door, through both dummies, and through the passenger door. Eeek!
[4] Not anymore. 10mm is on the rise!
[5] Manufacturers are making very good rounds these days, and some smaller brands are making really effective loads. My gunsmith loaded me me some full SAMI spec rounds with 165gr Remington Golden Sabers and I am very happy with them.
[7] I wonder what pressure gun-writers have on them when they write articles. Most probably don't do 10mm articles because it is considered too small a market to write about regularly. Jeff Cooper loved the 10mm, and that is all I need to meet my approval.
Cheers and regards, Zephyr!!
Quote from: Buckeye 50 on September 11 2013 06:42:47 PM MDT
I rented a Glock 20 about 6 mos. ago and was hooked with the first shot. It also changed my mind about Glocks, which I shot about 10 years ago and swore I would never have one or shoot another. I have a brand new Glock 20 Gen 4 full size as of a week ago.
Welcome to the "club" Pat!
I understand how easy it is to get hooked... I bought my first 10mm several years back and no other pistol round compares IMO. With the right ammo it has you covered from the street to the woods :-)
Congrats on the G20!
Cheers,
Tim
Quote from: RkyMtn on September 15 2013 08:52:11 PM MDT
The 40S&W got in the way. When loaded to +P rating, the 40S&W is right near the 10mm.
...
The 10mm has such great ability to cover most all situations one could need a gun for.
I completely agree with the first and second of these statements. Not sure I agree with the idea that 40 S&W +P is near 10mm loaded to SAAMI pressure.
First the technical rant. +P is not just a marketing gimic, or a label for "hot" ammo. Properly used 38 Special +P is a different SAAMI spec ammo, that shares its case dimensions with 38 special. It has a defined MAP pressure limit as well as other SAAMI approved specs. Guns are also manufactured and tested specifically for 38 Special +P. There are other SAAMI approved +P calibers as well.
No such SAAMI approval exists for 40 S&W +P. It is either a lie (eg marketing gimmic), and the ammo doesn't actually exceed SAAMI spec, or it does exceed the spec in which case you are using over pressure ammo which has not been certified by any standard organization as safe or reliable.
Rant off.
Buffalo Bore is know to push limits on ammo and catalogs several "Heavy 40 S&W +P" loads. They are differentiated from their "40 S&W Standard Pressure" loads. The company reputation and catalog section lead me strongly to believe this ammo is indeed over SAAMI spec for pressure. I would venture a guess that it is loaded to a MAP of 37,500 PSI, rather than 35,000 PSI like "standard pressure" 40 S&W, but this is only a guess on my part.
They also load "Heavy 10mm" ammo, but do not specify the ammo as +P, nor do they catalog any other 10mm loads at an indicated different pressure level. They catalog lead free loads separately. The 10mm loads in the "heavy" section ballistically match velocities of standard pressure, full-power 10mm loads. e.g 200 grain at 1200 fps, 180 grain at 1350 fps, 155 grain at 1500 fps.
Looking at their catalog ammo, we see 10mm out performing over-pressure 40 S&W by 20% pretty much across the board. To each his own as to whether that is "right near".
--mitch
P.S. Welcome to the forum RkyMtn. I have been away working on my house for the past few weeks and don't think we have met. Don't take this as me bustin' your chops. That is not my intent. I just want to be sure we have quantified the difference between over pressure 40 S&W and standard pressure 10mm for any readers who are less informed than you or I.
Quote from: DenStinett on September 11 2013 11:43:17 PM MDT
You know....
There are folk that prefer the .38 Sp over the .357 Mag
Go figure right ? ! ?
Especially stupid when you can fire .38 specials out of a .357 Mag. I use 148 grain cast DEWC's as practice fodder for my .357 mag.
Sort of like you can fire .44 special and .44 Russian ammo out of a .44 magnum, and .45 Colt out of a .454 Casull.
There are definitely uses for lower powered ammo that aren't stupid.
For someone who is old, or has diminished capacity to handle recoil, such as arthritis, injury, etc, a heavy magnum shooting light loads makes for reasonably potent defense medicine with reduce felt recoil. And a 250 grain 44 special at 900 fps is nothing to sneeze at.
Well, this post is now thoroughly de-railed. Welcome to the forum Buckeye!
www, I use a 255 grain cast .45 Colt in that role.
Of course I fire it out of my .454 Casull as cheaper practice fodder for the big boy loads.