I have owned 3 EAA Witness 10mm full size, two in wonderfinish, and one blued. I have convinced many friends to purchase them as well. We all experience the same problem. Jams. The round seems to catch on the case as it enters the barrel. I have tried everything I can think of. Stronger mag springs, 22 pound recoil springs, polished the feed ramp, smoothed out the lip on the breech. They still jam almost two times each magazine. It was a complete embarrassment the last time I did my gun qualification for duty. It jammed 7 times during my gun qualification. Ready to junk these things. My witness 9 has never jammed once.
Junk it my way! Honestly my Witness has been great since day one. Watch some of my videos and you will see it never has issues regardless of what it's fed. What tuning have you done?
What tuning needs to be done? If you have a recommendation let me know. I have polished up the ramp and chamfered the chamber entrance. Still jams. Pisses me off. It's not just my guns. Every 10mm Witness I have ever seen does it.
What round does it happen? Are they reloads?
Is it nose diving down or going up and hitting? Have you done mag springs and or tried with snap caps?
Quote from: Intercooler on June 29 2012 08:13:12 PM MDT
What round does it happen? Are they reloads?
Is it nose diving down or going up and hitting? Have you done mag springs and or tried with snap caps?
Happens at various times, no specific round. Factory and reloads. Upgraded mag springs, changed to the red followers. Usually catches while going up or as it is going straight in.
You could try one mag bending the feed lips and see.
I will give that a try.
Have you tried the new magazines EAA was ding the swaps with, said to cure feeding issues?
If you try to shape the mag lips you my want to use a piece of round stock fixed in a vice tight and slide the lips over it as a form and tap them around with a nylon/plastic hammer. Good luck!
It might be the barrel's alone.Again,this issue might be because you have a base model.However,kindly write a letter asking for 2 things.One, you would not object to the older square slide.Two.request a better barrel to go along with the slide.Be a little demanding,include a copy of reciepts purchased.
Then folks can assist with mag issues.
Does anyone know what is up with EAA's ordering process? Using the website I only see standard or compact blued slides for sale. At least the last time i looked. Is there a way to order a match slide or wonderfinish slide?
If you call them and request it I don't see why not.
Did you buy it new? Has it ever ran right? If it's got some miles on it many of the springs may need changed.
I buy all of my guns new. Never bought a used gun since my 1006.
Did it run okay after the initial break-in?
Do you leave the magazines loaded? I know that sounds odd, but since I started leaving my mags stuffed full, I have not had an issue. Once, just as a test I emptied one the night before the range trip. Could be coincidence, but that one mag had a jam the next day. Not a single issue with the other 4.
My Para is finnicky about COL with SWC bullet designs. If they are over 1.250" it will hang up. But the Witness seems to be mag related every time.
Forgot to ask,did you try the K10 mags that are out?Not the red follower ones.
Mine works with both. I actually like the extra capacity of the reds... if the gun works either one should be a go.
Quote from: pacapcop on June 30 2012 02:22:51 PM MDT
Forgot to ask,did you try the K10 mags that are out?Not the red follower ones.
Yeah, I have one K10. It jams the most.
Can you take a video of it doing this? Also any pictures of your barrel entrance and slide? I would like to see if it is any different than a Match or issues.
I know it doesn't help seeing one running as it should but he gives some info in there too.
Quote from: Grim Reaper on June 29 2012 07:49:56 PM MDT
I have owned 3 EAA Witness 10mm full size, two in wonderfinish, and one blued. I have convinced many friends to purchase them as well. We all experience the same problem. Jams....( ???)....The round seems to catch on the case as it enters the barrel....Stronger mag springs, 22 pound recoil springs, polished the feed ramp, smoothed out the lip on the breech. They still jam almost two times each magazine. It was a complete embarrassment the last time I did my gun qualification for duty. It jammed 7 times during my gun qualification.
Hhmmm....At the risk of sounding impudent, why do you convince friends to buy these pistols that have all experienced the same problem jams?--Patrice ::)
Notice the Witness in the video has the "Elite" upper with the squared slide, not the newer rounded one.
While I think the cracking issues on the new slides were related to heat treat issues, I don't think this new slide has enough mass to run correctly with full power 10mm ammo, especially with heavier bullets, say heavier than 165 grain.
A Hennings flat bottom firing pin stop may help this a bit by eating up some momentum right out of the gate, I think the real solution is to increase the slide mass.
As I have reported, my full size still doesn't like full power 205 grain loads. The Match runs fine with them.
I would really like to figure out what the magic is in just the slide. Somehow we need to dig deeper into this!
At any rate if it were me I would used the very strongest recoil spring offered and see how it acts. You can get a selection for less than $30 and see if it acts different with the changes.
To the OP: I feel your pain. Last year I purchased a new Witness Limited 10mm with the new K10 mags and it had mega feeding issues with the nose pointing straight/stuck on the feed ramp. I tried everything but to no avail. I returned not one but 3 for replacement. Fortunately my "first Witness" was purchased from a dealer whose supplier was Davidson's Firearms. Davidson's Guarantee is what I used to return 3 new pistols - all with feeding issues. But I loved this gun. The 4th time was the charm! No feeding issues at all.
Make certain your next Witness has the Davidson's Warranty! They stand behind it.
After watching the video,i gotta say,i think Tanfoglio started to get sloppy after the 90's with their base model.This whole buisness with the new slide and quality control just went south.Yes,their upper tier models are awsome,but they seem to sacrafice their base model in terms of quality.My Compact,after 2 send backs,is their old school model.And i gotta say,call me crazy,it is my most accurate 10mm,above and including the Match,which i own.
The Witness guns certainly can run great. But I agree that in the standard line it is a crap shoot as to whether yours will run at all.
Good to know about Davidson's.
Any luck? I would love to see this solved. If we could find the answer it would be huge for all owners!
I guess that I have been lucky. I have a new Elite Match with 4 K 10 magazines. I have had zero problems with the gun or any of the mags.
Same here Six 10s,all K10s run 100% in Match.Now im wishing they make in compact mags same.
Quote from: pacapcop on August 07 2012 08:10:59 PM MDT
Same here Six 10s,all K10s run 100% in Match.Now im wishing they make in compact mags same.
My K10's only hold 13 or 14 rounds instead of 15. They run great with my new Match slide and barrel, but jam like crazy with the regular Witness slide and barrel. I don't get it.
Run in the longer, heavier slide, don't in the shorter, lighter slide.
I am gonna guess your jams are all where the slide breech face misses the cartridge rim and rides up onto the cartridge body. If that is the case I am going to guess slide velocity issue.
Couple of things. I know you have mentioned, but what weight recoil spring are you running? And have you put in one of the Hennings flat bottom firing pin stops?
I would suggest you get the firing pin stop asap, and if the recoil spring is below 22 lbs, order one from wolff. And get + power mag springs too.
Below 22 pounds, really? Standard is 14 pounds, I put a 22 pounder in a few years back. That was the heaviest they made for a witness back then. What do they make them in now? What do you recommend? Its hard enough to pull the slide back at 22 pound. I couldn't imagine anything stronger.
I run a 22 lb in mine. And the + power mag springs. When I tuned mine up Henning didn't sell the flat bottom firing pin stop so springs were the only option to slow down the slide.
It does take a powerful grip on those skinny cocking serrations to get it back. 22 is the max you can get.
I have the 22lb as well and it shoots it all well. Anyone with a Witness needs the flat bottom, 22lb and even the Henning cone guide rod. I'm happy with all those changes and the flat bottom virtually cured the crows foot strikes even with a dirty firing pin channel.
What if you just run a Sprinco?
The Springco system is essentially a really complex shock-buff that doesn't bear apart in your gun as it wears out.
While this may lessen the impact to the frame of the slide, it will have almost no effect on slide velocity as it only comes into play in the last 3/8"-1/2" of slide travel. And it may reduce the total length of the slide travel, which would probably exacerbate this problem.
And it is 10X as expensive as a recoil spring from Wolff.
I have already put in a 20lb recoil spring from wolff and the slide still cracked. If you run a Sprinco, can you run it in addition to a 20 or 22lb recoil spring??
Recoil spring will not stop these slide crack situations.
They are the result of the pressures that occur on the slide during firing before the slide moves more than .100"-.150". Specifically, the stress locking the breech.
The heavier recoil spring is to dump slide velocity so the action will not out-run the magazine springs.
No Problem!
Well, not "no Problem" but this one is an easy fix. Please note I carry a Witness match in 10mm and had these problems too, till they were fixed.
99% percent of the fix is the *&%#$@ factory magazine with the red follower. It is a third "fix" by the factory who simply are great at machining and LOST designing a magazine. On the Bren Ten blog, I was to the point of ripping the magazine apart and building a new follower out of a Glock follower just so the red one would not stick in the tube!
The worst issue is that the (and the issue we are discussing here) is that the magazine tube angle is just shallow enough (and the tube long and wide enough close to the feed lips) so that the rim of the cartridge that is to be fed into the chamber can "hook" or "catch" in the extractor groove of the cartridge below it, either as it sits or as the slide slams into the cartridge to feed it. If it feeds after nosediving, by the time it gets up the ramp it jams with rim on slide, body on feedramp and bullet nose on the upper part of chamber.
If it gets smacked really hard by the slide because someone is using a 2400 lbs Chevy Impala spring to "fix" his gun, the cartridge below lets go of the rim of the cartridge above, but only after "straightening" it. The bullet either slams into the feedramp and stops (simple feed) or slams into the feedramp and porpoises into the bottom of the barrel hood, being literally sideways from where you want it to be, bending the feed lips of the mag.
Messing with the springs to "Make it work" is prayer at best, dangerous at worst. It needs a real "fix" which will never be done short of replacing you magazines. When Jamal and his gangbanger buddies decide to kick the life out of you while you are in the parking lot, that is a lousy time to have a jam. The Weapon (mine is a Match converted to double action) should work fine with all springs, but I would not use anything more than 18 pound recoil springs for the most part. Shock buffering is good (use 1911's) and Henning's guiderods.
Since the problem is inherent with the magazine, after years of complaints and different followers and springs, Tanfoglio turned the whole problem over to Mec-Gar and said, "Help". Mec-Gar correctly saw the problem, the stacking of the cartridges as the angle of the feedlips is different than the angle the cartridges "sink" in the magazine. So here is what they did:
1. Tube is a complete redesign.
A. Gone is the short angle stamps that do not control the nose of the cartridges.
B. Tube now has a flat front that keeps the cartridges in line ALL THE WAY DOWN the tube. Cartridges can not slip over each others rim because there simply is not room in the front/back movement for them to catch.
C. Tube now has rolled ridges all the way down the side to hold the cartridges off the tube body and more aligned. Friction is reduced and the cartridges slide easily up and down the sides.
D. Even with the cartridges straighter in the tube, the angle stamps start earlier so that by the time the cartridges get to the feedlips, they are one on top of another, like a single stack magazine.
E. Anti-friction coating. The Midway ad for these mags say "blued" but it is actually some sort of advanced Teflon. I run my mags dry. Clean them, reassemble them, reload them and go.
2. Follower is a complete redesign
A. The factory "red" follower just plain sucked. It rattles, it sticks, it is too short in length for the magazine so it rocks around on top of the spring like a plate in the hand of a drunken waiter and the little "legs" catch on the spring, pinching, and bending and kinking the spring. The new one is a clean slate. It looks a lot like a follower from a Glock, with a hold in the center for the spring to be retained (so the follower is supported back, middle and front.
B. The follower has indents carved into it so that it rides the "rails" in the magazine body, preventing shifting and tilt.
C. The follower is made from a hard, slick composite like the Glock follower, so it is self lubricating
D. The follower has a ducktail in the back, like rifle or Glock followers, and only tilts a little as it moves down the tube so it will not "jam in the tube. Gone are the stupid legs, soft plastic and loose follower.
With my Witness, I shoot full power loads and it has been 6 months since a jam and that was with an old magazine before I destroyed them. Reloads, FMJ Federal, Remington target, Doubletap 165gr Zombie slayer loads. It just runs. It actually is boring. It just runs.
TANSTAFFL, the redesign only holds 14, but if you run a hennings basepad, 15 are there. DO NOT FORCE more in that will go with ease. When the mag is difficult to insert into the gun, it is because the sides are being forced outward by the follower. Be happy with 14 and don't stress a great piece of engineering just to jam ONE MORE IN! A full Mag should slide in and out of gun easily.
P.S. Please destroy your old crappy magazines. Run them over with you truck or whatever and rid the earth of them, they are death and unhappiness waiting to happen. DO NOT PUT IT UP FOR SALE ON TOP OF YOUR GUNSHOW TABLE.
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I have both reds and blacks and both work.
Your right on Bead.In process of getting my Match into D/A as well.I use a 18lb spring with the Henning Cone Rod.For carry purposes,D/A is where it's at.The Red followers are horrible.Some have had success, but for the most part,they FTF.My compact would be 100% if not for those red followers.And that is med loads.Im hopeing Mec-Gar produces those.
Like intercooler, my reds all run 100%. But only after I learned two things. One, the needed for spring, and two, for some reason they like to be kept loaded. I have six red-follower mags. Anyone who doesn't like theirs and feels they need to run over, please PM me and I will be glad to give you an address where you can send them to have them "disposed" of.
That said, I won't carry a gun/mag/ammo combination that hasn't given me at least 200 rounds of jam free range time.
I think with fullsize mags there was some success obviously.However the new ones require no tweaking and springs are stronger and feed is great.You can see and feel the quality.GoldBead is right,esp in terms of carry.Im waiting for the compact mags.I emailed Mec-Gar,but i won't hold my breath.
Quote from: pacapcop on August 20 2012 12:55:02 AM MDT
Your right on Bead.In process of getting my Match into D/A as well.I use a 18lb spring with the Henning Cone Rod.For carry purposes,D/A is where it's at.The Red followers are horrible.Some have had success, but for the most part,they FTF.My compact would be 100% if not for those red followers.And that is med loads.Im hoping Mec-Gar produces those.
Hi PPC,
I don't know if Mec-Gar will do that, but it would make sense, as the compact has the fastest slide speed, the most violent recoil, the most torque over CG of any of the Witness pistols. It is a currently produced item and the engineering tweaks have been worked out, so why not? The tube is the only item that would have to be set up for, so they would have to make a stamping mold for it. Once that is done the follower and other parts are right there.
Once those mags come out for the Compact, a Daisho of 10mm compacts would be really sweet (24 rounds!). I wish the factory would come out with aluminum frames, but I see why they don't, yet.
I did the DA myself and I will put an article I did on it up shortly. If you need help, let me know and I will. Hennings had videos of dis-assembly which are great, but once you have the interrupter installed on the hammer, the Sear housing requires a little love to get it to seat. Not force, just fidgeting.
I carry on hip and shoulder holster and I hate (HATE!) cocked and locked.
P.S. The enemy has an amusing habit of castrating themselves with Glocks....excellent!
Castrate away i say lol.Midway USA has a vast selection.I see the .40 cal now as "Coming Soon".Maybe the 10 compact is last on the list,i don't know.Im perparing to send down to EAA the Match for D/A.Somethings myself i prefere not to mess with.But thanks.I hate cock and locked myself,esp in a shoulder rig.
Checked Mec-Gar website. No 10mm Witness magazines for sale.
http://www.mec-gar.com/Magazines/Witness
I checked the Midway website, it says the new K10 mags are produced by EAA. :o
"This replacement magazine is a factory original from EAA. Factory replacement parts are manufactured to the exact same specifications and tolerances and use the same manufacturing materials as the original parts which guarantees excellent fit and reliable operation."
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/416807/eaa-magazine-witness-10mm-auto-15-round-steel-blue
Why do people keep saying the K10 mags are from Mec-Gar?
>:(
I thought EAA was still doing the send us your red follower mags and we will exchange them for the blacks deal? Has anyone checked?
I will also take any red follower magazines that are causing fits ;D
Hennings has the 10mm Mec-Gar advertised.They dont have a pic but hennings sells the Mec Gar 10mm mag.EAA supplies mags only.Mec Gar site sells Witness/Tanfoglio Mags.They appear to be same as ones sold on Midway.Is there wording in advertisment from Midway thats not correct?
Intercooler! Hi! Pulled this off of Brian Enos Forum:
Quote"Mec-Gar had Tangfolio's mag contract in the late 90's. Tangfolio switched company's(don't know the name) and they produced the Red Follower mags. Mec-Gar got the contract back in early 2011.
The owner of EAA has a good bit of old inventory of the Red follower mags in stock. So every time you call and order mags and you don't ask for the new Mec-Gar K10 mag they will send you the OLD DISCONTINUED RED FOLLOWER MAGS. It's not the guys fault who answers the phone, there are told by the owner to send (and lower his inventory) RED FOLLOWER MAGS.
Pack up your red mags with your reciept and mail back to EAA and tell them you want to swap for the new K10 mag It holds 14rds only. EAA never changed their description of the mag on their !@##ty web page.
The new K10's run flawlessly. 14rds that run or 15rds that don't!!!!!! Changing to Henning base pads depending on which you choose will give you 15 to 20rds. H500(shortest) with factory spring & follower will give you 15+1. H580 +Hennings Gram follower and 10 coil spring might go 18(haven't tried this combo yet) but in my K38 mag it gives 21+1 of 38Super.
Bottom line, lose the red follower mags and switch to K10's and you will have a gun that shoots.
K10=10mm
K40=.40
k38= any 38Super including Super/Comp. 9x23
K9 = 9mm
The new K Series are large frame mags only. If used in a compact gun they will work but just stick out the bottom, but no more than if you had one of Hennings pads on.
Rumor is (So don't hold me to Accuracy) that the owner of Tanfoglio and the owner of Mec-Gar were having dinner together and got into a pissing contest that got personal. Tanfoglio refused to do business with Mec-Gar for a few years. When Tanfoglio's rep started to go south, Tanfoglio kissed the ring and made up.
In return, Mec-Gar went all out on both the 38 Super/9mm magazines and the 10mm because of complaints and did a smash up job on the new mags. By the way, the magazine in the video you posted is a Mec-Gar!
Don't have them for my Witness, but I have one for my Para P-16. Runs like a top.
I got a little funny to tell ya's.I e-mailed EAA and asked if they will have the Compact 10mm 12 round magazine without the red follower like other calibers that are available.
Return E-Mail,
Sir,
What is the serial number on the gun?
Told ya i had a funny.
But in conclusion"At this time we only have red followers".
I really wish Tanfoglio would find another importer. EAA just isn't cutting it. Whoever responds to these emails needs a new job.
The ones one Henning's site aren't K10?
http://henningshootsguns.com/shop/magazines.html
Maybe e-mail these guys and see:
http://www.ammoclip.com/E/eaa_witness_10mm.htm
Wish I could solve this mystery.
Mec-Gar isn't selling the K10's on their website. They won't admit to producing them in emails I sent them.
Midway shows a picture of a mag with black follower, but says its a 15 round capacity and is a "factory original" from EAA. (I ordered one and it holds 14, it's stamped K10, but says "Tanfoglio, Italy" on the base pad)
Hennings says their mags are Mec-Gar K10, but show a picture of a standard EAA mag with red follower.
I agree Grim,it's turning into a production.Henning needs to update photo of the Mec-Gar K10.Midway im guessing has wording in advertisement all wrong,Mec-gar can not give a straight answer or a return e-mail's from my attempts,and not to be left out,EAA being itself. ???
Intercooler,
Hennings photo of Mag described as K10 is not correct.My Fullsize K10 is clearly marked on mag from Midway and more of a non glossy finish and no Red Follower.
Here lies the problem i think.Mec Gar web site displays their mags with side that does not indicate K10 or whatever caliber code it happens to be.On the midway site,the Mags clearly display K10 etc etc.
Quote from: pacapcop on August 28 2012 12:08:23 PM MDT
Intercooler,
Hennings photo of Mag described as K10 is not correct.My Fullsize K10 is clearly marked on mag from Midway and more of a non glossy finish and no Red Follower.
Does yours say "Tanfoglio, Italy" on the base pad? My K10 does. I'm wondering if someone at Midway put my K10 together and mixed up the parts with a regular EAA mag. Because this thing jams my gun worse then any mag I ever had.
Grim,see above on mag ID issue.Second,most post of the K10's are positive in regards to feeding issues due to inferior mags with red followers of past.Not all,but a vast majority who use newer mags are reporting much sucess.Your pistols obviously are not mag related.Did you send them back?My K10's do say "Tanfolglio,Italy"on the base pad.
Quote from: pacapcop on August 28 2012 12:08:23 PM MDT
Intercooler,
Hennings photo of Mag described as K10 is not correct.My Fullsize K10 is clearly marked on mag from Midway and more of a non glossy finish and no Red Follower.
Here lies the problem i think.Mec Gar web site displays their mags with side that does not indicate K10 or whatever caliber code it happens to be.On the midway site,the Mags clearly display K10 etc etc.
On Mec-Gar's website the mags are listed by caliber. http://www.mec-gar.com/Magazines/Witness
No 10mm's for Witness pistols are offered.
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Ok,What i hold in my hand is the same as advertised, Mec-Gar.Same mag,same as advertised,same appearance.I have there 10mm fullsize.Nothing diff as it appears to me.Theres defiancies in advertisment to the best of my knowledge.Regardless of Midway or Mec-gar's web site,they are the same in appearance.
I recieved a return e-mail from EAA.The new mags are in FACT,made by Mec-Gar for Tanfoglio.Mystery solved.
I ordered a blued slide for my Witness off of EAA's website thinking it would be the better squared blued slide. Well, to my surprise when I got it, it is the same crappy rounded slide as the wonder-finish slide that is known for cracking issues. Does anybody know if these blued rounded slides are just as bad as the wonderfinish rounded slides as far as cracking??
Send it back.If the presentation of the slide you bought appeared to be the squared off one,make note of that and request the slab style.I think you will be fine.
I did some research into this and I think the only way to get a squared slide is if you get the long slide conversion which is a lot more. I think as far as the 4.5 barrels go, you can only get a rounded slide. If you want a squared slide, it has to be one of the match squared slides that are 4.75 barrels....
I am pretty sure it isn't all rounded slides that crack. I read an article several years back right after EAA started actually doing warranty repair on them rather than blaming bad ammo. It said that Tanfoglio had found a lot of slides that were not correctly heat treated. Specifically, they were not annealed after the first heat and quench. As a result they were overly brittle, which lead to the cracking.
I would shoot it and see. EAA has been standing behind them, so if it cracks you have recourse.
Like the old saying."If it's not broke,don't try to fix it".
It appears i been seeing the base model Witness with the squared off slides for sale.These are NIB.Anyone else starting to see that trend.DA/SA.
I haven't really been watching. One thing to be careful of is lots of guys on Gunbroker just use a stock photo they downloaded years ago. If it says NIB, I would contact the seller to verify the photo is of the gun up for sale.
Thanks.Just to clarify,the photos im seeing are the SA/DA non rubber grips.The grips are like the new plastic Match grips and the old slide.But yes,i will inquire.Armslist has one up for sale,10 round DA/SA.450.00 new
You appear to be correct:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=327844546
This gun has forward serrations and a rail as well as the new plastic grips. All details that are well after the rounded slide. Plus, it is clearly new in box and not stock photos.
Makes me happy. In addition to issues with some heat treat lots, I thought the rounded ones were ugly. And a few minutes on the mill and I could get rid of that rail, turn the front serrations into browning cuts and shorten the dust cover to match and it would be an elegant gun again :P
New member here. This is my first post.
I recently receive a new Witness 10mm that I purchased from Budsgunshop. It took a month to arrive, but it's finally in its new home.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img829/29/witness10mmrightview.jpg)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img717/4767/witness10mmleftview.jpg)
As you can see, it has the heavier slide. The magazine that came with it is marked K10 and has a black follower. I've installed a Henning guiderod and 20Lb recoil spring.
Now I just have to work this new Starline brass in to complete cartridges.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img703/5214/starline10mmbox.jpg)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img801/4508/starline10mmheadstamp.jpg)
Welcome to the forum Bret. Nice Witness 10mm, congrats! Somebody's going to be a little busy doing some loading I see! ;D
That thing does need to eat! 8)
Looks great Bret. I like both my EAA products very, very much.
Looks great,just like old times.How's the barrel look,smooth ramp?