I know so far he has .380, 9mm, 10mm and .357 locked down. The .44 Magnum will be soon to follow 8)
It would not work for me.
Assuming having 380 for self defense, I see little if any reason to choose it anymore being that 9mm is available in numberous platforms practically as small as those for 380. Basically takes a niche away from the 380 that was practically the only reason for ownership it had. On the other hand, if someone chooses one "just because", outside of self defense scenarios, I loosely get that. Plus some people own platforms for them that they bought before micro-9s were available. So no doubt there will still be a demand for the ammo, but probably less and less as time goes by. I have never owned a 380 platform and at this point never will. To each their own.
By the same token I wish Kevin Underwood and company the best with all ammo they offer and sell. Mostly in 10mm though! ;D
My dad keeps talking about picking up a .380 to use as his CCW gun, and I just feel uncomfortable about that. I mean, he is one of those people that will get a smaller gun just because he will carry it more than a larger one, but he's doing it at the great expense of power. I barely consider 9mm an effective self defense round, but I would be much more comfortable carrying a 9mm than a .380.
Even the hot Underwood +P ammo in the video only has 267 ft lbs of energy whereas even a non +P 9mm can have upwards of 400 ft lbs of energy. I know kinetic energy isn't the end-all be-all, but it does count for something.
Quote from: Turo on June 29 2012 07:04:36 PM MDT
My dad keeps talking about picking up a .380 to use as his CCW gun, and I just feel uncomfortable about that. I mean, he is one of those people that will get a smaller gun just because he will carry it more than a larger one, but he's doing it at the great expense of power. I barely consider 9mm an effective self defense round, but I would be much more comfortable carrying a 9mm than a .380.
Even the hot Underwood +P ammo in the video only has 267 ft lbs of energy whereas even a non +P 9mm can have upwards of 400 ft lbs of energy. I know kinetic energy isn't the end-all be-all, but it does count for something.
I'm with ya 100%. And not to mention some dang good micro-9s being readily available, 9mm ammo is usually cheaper than 380 ammo.
I see a place for them. I am in the market for a FEG PA-63 for my mom to try out. She has no issue shooting a 10mm Glock 29, but a place to conceal carry is a challenge for her.
It is also why I am looking at building a CCO 10mm. She loves the feel of compact 1911's, and I am hoping she will fall for the CCO. Then I can build her one too!
9mm is indeed very cheap. As far as bang for the buck about the cheapest!
Also with the new Nano, Shield and XDs they are packing the 9mm in small shootable packages. I will never spring for a .380 either but think some .380's will still be smaller than the smallest 9's.
Quote from: Intercooler on June 29 2012 10:53:47 PM MDT
...but think some .380's will still be smaller than the smallest 9's.
True. But to me, not enough anymore to give up the much better terminal performance of a decent 9mm load compared to any 380 load. I guess I just don't see
splitting hairs to that extent when it might be my life on the line. Just my opinion of course. I'm definately not here to tell others what to do.
I'm with you. Never saw the need for .380 when ammo is more and packages aren't much different.
The PA-63 is 9mm makatov. pretty close to 9mm Parabellum numbers. And a very tidy and inexpensive package.
Quote from: sqlbullet on June 30 2012 09:33:10 AM MDT
The PA-63 is 9mm makarov. pretty close to 9mm Parabellum numbers. And a very tidy and inexpensive package.
I don't know how to tell you the following as delicately as I'ld prefer, so I'm just gonna say it...
The 9x18mm Makarov is nowhere near the
numbers of a 9mm Luger.
It could be said that the 9x18mm Makarov is close to 380 Auto numbers.
Blowback design pistols, like the PA-63, can only handle power levels up to 9x18mm Makarov/380 Auto levels.
On top of that, technically (I'm splitting hairs here) the 380 has an edge over the Makarov being that the Makarov bullets are a larger caliber (.364" - .365") but no more weight than 380 bullets, thus the Makarov bullets come in at even lower sectional density than 380 bullets, which are already on the very-light side toward self defense against humans.
To put the sectional density of the 90gr - 95gr bullets that the Makarov shoots into perspective, we're talking about virtually equal sectional density of 35gr .224 caliber bullets. The 9mm Luger big-time out does this.
Look at it this way...the Makarov does the same thing (numbers wise) with 95gr bullets as the 9mm Luger does with 147gr bullets. IMO that's an extreme difference for various reasons. The 9mm Luger is way to powerful to even be reasonably considered for use in a blowback design pistol that the Makarov makes good use of.
Also, you can get little pistols chambered in 9mm Luger very inexpensive ($275 for a NIB Kel-tec PF-9, among others). And on top of it, the 9mm Luger ammo is also plenty cheaper in the way of the ammo itself, not to mention a whole lot more plentiful, with a whole lot more load choices to boot.
Do what you like. I just wanted to clear up some of the misconception, same as I expect the rest of you to do for me. Cheers.
Thanks red line. When I get back home and have access to my full size computer I will have to recheck my reading about the makarov. I must be having a senior moment.
Gonna blame my senior moment on mobile browsing. Went back to buffalo bore. The link for 9mm para is right below the link for makarov. Sure enogu this time, paying better attention, when I clicked the link on the small screen I ended up at 9mm para.
My apologies for not vetting my comments better.
No problem. I just couldn't let a fellow 10mm guy go away thinking what you had posted. BTW, I'm thinking my young-and-dumb moments trump your senior moments. ;D
Start poking holes in people with high velocity projectiles, and they tend to knock off whatever stupid act they were involved in. Would I prefer a .380? No, but I would not feel "naked" or undergunned with one either.
I will take a 380 anyday over a switch blade!
Quote from: wingnuut on July 01 2012 09:13:17 AM MDT
I will take a 380 anyday over a switch blade!
I'm with the analysis but I still have no use for 380 Auto.
Guys, there's an old commercial that says "don't leave home without it". That applies to my Ruger LCP in .380 ACP. This pistol is so light that I just drop in my front pocket of my shorts and forget about it. In 90+ degree weather in my area, I wear as little clothes as possible and its so easy to conceal. Some of the new HP ammo available makes it a potent little cartridge and it's there if I need it. Haven't found a way to conceal a 10 mm or 45 ACP framed 1911 in my shorts yet. :)
Quote from: loadedround on July 03 2012 06:17:54 AM MDT
Guys, there's an old commercial that says "don't leave home without it". That applies to my Ruger LCP in .380 ACP. This pistol is so light that I just drop in my front pocket of my shorts and forget about it. In 90+ degree weather in my area, I wear as little clothes as possible and its so easy to conceal. Some of the new HP ammo available makes it a potent little cartridge and it's there if I need it. Haven't found a way to conceal a 10 mm or 45 ACP framed 1911 in my shorts yet. :)
Very true. Even a converted AMT Backup is large compared to an LCP or a 3AT.
Quote from: loadedround on July 03 2012 06:17:54 AM MDT
Guys, there's an old commercial that says "don't leave home without it". That applies to my Ruger LCP in .380 ACP. This pistol is so light that I just drop in my front pocket of my shorts and forget about it. In 90+ degree weather in my area, I wear as little clothes as possible and its so easy to conceal. Some of the new HP ammo available makes it a potent little cartridge and it's there if I need it. Haven't found a way to conceal a 10 mm or 45 ACP framed 1911 in my shorts yet. :)
Ruger LCP 380 Auto ---- Length = 5.16", Height = 3.60", Width = .820", Capacity = 6+1Kahr PM9 9mm ---------- Length = 5.42", Height = 4.00", Width = .900", Capacity = 6+1
Sig Sauer P290 9mm ---- Length = 5.50", Height = 3.90", Width = .900", Capacity = 6+1
Kimber Solo 9mm -------- Length = 5.50", Height = 3.90", Width = .995", Capacity = 6+1
Diamondback DB9 9mm - Length = 5.60", Height = 4.00", Width = .800", Capacity = 6+1
Beretta Nano 9mm ------ Length = 5.63", Height = 4.17", Width = .900", Capacity = 6+1
KEL TEC PF-9 9mm ----- Length = 5.85", Height = 4.30", Width = .880", Capacity = 7+1
Walther PPS 9mm -------Length = 6.30", Height = 4.40", Width = .910", Capacity = 7+1
S&W M&P Shield 9mm --Length = 6.10", Height = 4.60", Width = .950", Capacity = 7+1Glock G33 357 SIG ------Length = 6.54", Height = 4.17", Width = 1.18", Capacity = 9+1 (just for comparison to make it easier for some to judge)
Springfield EMP 9mm -- Length = 6.50", Height = 5.00", Width = ?????, Capacity = 9+1 (smallest 1911 I could find)
With so many great viable 9mm options so close to the LCP 380, it is the equvalent of going to a tiny bit more size for double the firepower per round. Just the way I look at. Your opinion may vary. Sometimes I think a lot of people don't realize all the great micro-9 choices available. There's probably more, those are just what I could think up at the moment.
Quote from: loadedround on July 03 2012 06:17:54 AM MDT
Guys, there's an old commercial that says "don't leave home without it". That applies to my Ruger LCP in .380 ACP. This pistol is so light that I just drop in my front pocket of my shorts and forget about it. In 90+ degree weather in my area, I wear as little clothes as possible and its so easy to conceal. Some of the new HP ammo available makes it a potent little cartridge and it's there if I need it. Haven't found a way to conceal a 10 mm or 45 ACP framed 1911 in my shorts yet. :)
Same here, I carry the Ruger LCP all day long in the front pocket. I'm just not able to carry my G26, or G20 at work. It's a hot work environment, I deal with customer's through out the day, and I'm afraid my firearm will un-conceal itself, and freak out some customer's. I'm not willing to take a chance. When I am off from work during the hot summer my LCP is with me also. I know it's a mouse gun, but at least I'm able to carry concealed.
Redline:
I don't dispute what you are saying but I would like to point out two points not covered in your post.
1. Compare the weight of the LCP to the other 9mm firearms.
2. Compare the FPS and energy of the 380 and 9mm with similar bullet weights out of a mouse gun barrel at 5-7 yds. Not much difference is there? Shot placement is what's important, not velocity or capacity. I know how to use my LCP and thank you, with proper ammo, it will remain in my side pocket.
Quote from: loadedround on July 07 2012 03:16:12 PM MDT
Redline:
I don't dispute what you are saying but I would like to point out two points not covered in your post.
1. Compare the weight of the LCP to the other 9mm firearms.
I can understand some people weighing the weight in with the pros and cons. Well not really, but I'm not going to tell anyone else what they do or don't have to think however they want to think about it. For me, I don't. A micro 9, the way I see it, is a nonissue weight wise, especially collectively with all other pros and cons. To each their own.
Quote2. Compare the FPS and energy of the 380 and 9mm with similar bullet weights out of a mouse gun barrel at 5-7 yds. Not much difference is there? Shot placement is what's important, not velocity or capacity. I know how to use my LCP and thank you, with proper ammo, it will remain in my side pocket.
First of all 9 and 380 don't shoot similar bullet weights. Second of all you don't cherry pick a bullet weight in this scenario to try to make it "fair". Whatever bullet weight anyone deems best for the particular cartridge(s) is what should be compared. It's the bullet at whatever speed it impacts that directly relates to terminal performance. If we're talking mouse guns, like we are, fine, we can and should limit the discussion to mouse guns. But limiting the load you can compare when discussing self defense use is foolhardy.
Two common loads:
Chrono results of a 380 Auto Speer Gold Dot 90gr shot from a LCP = 930 fps and 173 ft-lbs
Chrono results of a 9mm Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P Short Barrel shot from a Kahr PM9 = 1120 fps and 345 ft-lbs
That's a big difference. That's double the energy with the 9 with a much heavier bullet to boot that will easily outpenetrate the 380 load that is already considered marginal at best for general self defense.
In the above comparison the LCP weighs in at 9.4 ounces without ammo or a mag. The Kahr PM9 comes in at 14.0 ounces without ammo or a mag. I realize this is a single example. But in this specific case between these two guns, the weight difference is 4.6 ounces, empty gun to empty gun.
IMO 4.6 ounces is nowhere near enough
extra weight to give up half the firepower, especially against a round like the 380 Auto that is only marginal to begin with toward general self defense. But, to each their own. If you feel differently, that's fine too. It's your life. I'll safeguard my life the way I see fit and you yours. Nothing wrong with that. Cheers! 8)