I posted the following question over on GlockTalk and got some good responses, just wondering if I might learn something new here.
I recently bought a Glock 29, my first 10mm. I'm looking for a good self defense ammo. I will use the 29 for a night stand and carry pistol.
I'm currently considering going with some Underwood, but not sure what would be best for self defense. I can get 135 to 220 gr, and it seems the 29 will push all to over 1000 fps. I'm leaning toward something in the 155 to 200 gr range right now, sort of a balance between velocity, bullet mass, plus a wider range of bullet selections.
So is it better to have a 155 gr going 1400 fps, a 200 gr going 1150 fps, or is the 180gr @ 1250 fps a happy middle ground? Is this a Ford Vs Chevy debate? Just looking for suggestions.
Thanks,
David
djdavis75, Welcome to the forum! If you live in a populated area such as a residential area in close proximity to other houses, you may want to use the 165's or 155's should serve you very well. If you're in a rural area, 180's or 200's may be even better overall. Personally I carry Hornady 200 grain JHP's, but being this is a 10mm most any factory JHP will provide good performance.
Best regards! :)
I live in a very rural area, as far as home defense, I'm not concerned about over penetration or anything. Carrying would be my main concern, because I might carry into places like Walmart, etc... I want a hard hitting round, but don't want an unusually high risk of shooting a perp and the round passing through and hitting someone else. That's my main concern.
Welcome to the forum djdavis75!
All I can tell you is my favorite are 155gr Gold Dots at a relatively souped up velocity level like offered by Underwood. I believe Underwood loads them at 1500 FPS. That comes out to about 775 ft-lbs. From your G29 probably still darn close to 750 ft-lbs.
Anyway, for me it's simply about maximum energy on target with a bullet that will still put a hurt on the vitals. I'm sure you're well aware others opinions will vary. My thinking is based off of all kinds of stuff including grossly nonscientific backyard fun. Ultimately you'll have to decide for yourself what flavor of Kool-Aid tastes best to your palate. Just because I don't prefer to carry a heavier weight bullet doesn't mean I'll voluntarily take a hit from one either. ;D
Good Luck with your decision!
I live in a paradox...Major metropolitan area in the mountain west where we occasionally see bears in city parks. :o
So, currently I am carrying Buffalo Bore 180's that are at the end of their rotation. Next up will be Nosler 200 JHP. While I can't say I don't consider over-penetration, I don't let it weigh very heavily into my ammo choice in a carry load.
Hornandy has their 155 factory,it will save your ears if you had to draw.U/W's 135 and 155's,i had ear plugs in a switched over to full size ear protection.Id say 165 in U/W's all around.I know ringing is going to occur but mitigating severe damage will help your hearing.
I love the 10 and carry my Model 20 daily but I think and so does Mas that the 45 makes a better choice for SD in that there are many well proven rounds with allot more data nd SD ammo availability with the venerable 45. After thinking about I agree however woods carry or on the MTB the 10 rides with me the new model 21 will be my daily carry gun though.
Accuracy first, penetration second, expansion third. Doesn't have to be the most accurate round, but has to be good. I prefer something that penetrates deeper, 16 to 18 inches. I prefer the heavier bullet weights, 170gr or higher. I am currently carrying PMC 170gr hp. From Brass Fetcher's test, it appears to perform quite well. Looks to be about the same as Hornady 180gr xtp (which would be my first choice). I also prefer a round that has less recoil than a full house 10mm.
I plan to load the Nosler 200 JHP to 1200 fps. That is just shy of modern full-house 10mm auto, and shoots just fine from both my Glock and my Para.
Mas also said the 180 grain 10mm in the area of 1250 fps has fared well in police shootings.
In my mind there isn't an order of most important to least important. To some extent there is, but I simply look at all needs as a whole and choose what meets my criteria best, as there are numerous excellent choices. Then there's another aspect; It partly will boil down to each individuals risk assessments. Some live in bear country and others don't. Some live in an apartment in town while others live in a rural area over a mile from the next dwelling. Depending on overall weather conditions of the region of the country or world one lives in will determine if no one really wears anything heavier than a t-shirt, or is more normally wearing multiple heavy layers of clothing. If you're on the road most of the time you may choose a round that's better toward shooting through vehicles, but someone who finds them selves mainly outdoors may opt differently.
There are certainly basic rules that have to be followed before we can hope for a self-defense round to work appropriately most of the time. But even those will vary depending on one's expectation compared to another.
The round needs to be combat accurate to a distance you decide necessary. The bullet should be capable of enough penetration to reach the vitals under at least slightly beyond normal circumstances. The round needs to feed, extract and eject reliably in your platform of choice. If choosing a hollow point bullet it should be of a proven design well known to expand after encountering clothing.
Beyond that, the choice is yours with most other variables up to you to follow through on (handling stressful shooting circumstances, shot placement, recoil management, quick reloads if need be,...).
Of course a reliable platform needs to be chosen for the selected ammo to do as it was intended. As you've chosen the G29, you should have little chance of issue.
pacapcop brought up sound level of defensive ammo. I disagree here 100% (just my opinion). Once adrenalin gets flowing you will in many cases be protected from hearing damage. Once enough adrenalin gets flowing (many times even in hunting scenarios) there are many times when you won't even be able to recall the sound of a shot AND it doesn't leave ears even ringing afterwards. Now, if sustained gunfire ensues that may be a different story, but the vast majority of gunfights don't last that long. Also, most of us will most likely never find ourselves in a self-defense situation requiring a round to be touched off at all. In then end that leaves me leaning toward a higher powered round regardless the sound level. To each their own.
Bottom line is yes, there are general criteria that need to be followed, and even they don't entirely limit you and allow you to tweak toward what's best for you, necessarily and optionally. At the end of the day though those criteria can be tweaked using various platform/ammo combinations to suit your liking/needs that still equal a perfectly excellent option. At the end of the day you have to weigh your own personal pros and cons and make the decision on your own. No doubt it helps to have some guideline to follow along the way. 8)
I see street results based on police shootings and whatnot being brought up.
I suggest at the same time learning all you can from street results to also not take them into direct account toward a specific round you will carry.
Street results have given us great guidance toward getting an excellent feel for what works and what doesn't. Beyond that there is not necessarily any reason whatsoever to not choose a round that hasn't been street proven. There are many reasons various law enforcement will never carry any and all rounds available to the general public that have zero bearing on how great or not an individual specific cartridge load is against whatever adversary they're defending against.
Various law enforcement are forced to choose a weapon/load combination that works for everyone in their group reasonably well. As an example; G20s and Underwood 10mm ammo doesn't generally fit that criteria.
It's the same in platform choice. Plenty of general public folks stick to a revolver. What percentage of law enforcement groups do you see doing the same? Does that mean a GP-100 is 357 Magnum is a poor carry option? Heck no!
Bottom line is yes, there is a wealth of positive knowledge to be gained from street results, but those same street results are not the end all be all in determining what you may or may not want to choose for yourself.
Well stated Redline. And from original post a self def round was a concern in a store, crowded area. A factory 155 with less recoil and boom I feel should be sufficient. You are correct on adrenalin, a fire fight is a firefight. Throw in recoil, esp with the G29, and nuke velocity, I disagree. But we agree to disagree. Georgia arms makes I feel a sound round, a 155 at 1375,less recoil as I shot them and they are much manageable in the recoil dept as opposed to U/W's.
Great posts in this thread! This must be why I like it here so much. :P
I do agree that there are plenty of good rounds out there that have yet to be street proven (or perhaps never will). I was just throwing that out there. Maybe the information will be helpful to the OP and maybe it won't. Either way it is good to know. Unfortunately, since 10mm isn't carried by LE anymore, and is not as popular of a round as we 10mm enthusiasts feel it should be, the 10 loads may never get a good baseline of data for us to examine and take into consideration.
I agree with PAcapcop in that the Hornady 155 load may be good for the needs of many shooters, or those who carry a handgun into potentially harm's way. Same for Georgia arms 155 grain. I also agree with redline in that everyone has their own specific needs.
With all the good advice in this thread, I am sure the OP will be able to figure it out for himself.
Oh, and welcome aboard djdavis75! 8)
I like that we have options and can choose which way to narrow those options via our own individual criteria (assuming pure ignorance doesn't enter the equation).
If there was only a single option for everything I doubt we'ld even have a forum, and life in the shooting world would be big-time boring.
We have dozens of factory loads available, dozens of platform choices (even if some equate to a small tweak here and there along with customized offerings)...
For those of us that handload we all choose different combinations of: brass cases, bullets, powders, and primers. How boring it be if limited to a single brass case, single bullet, single powder, and single primer. On top of that there is a whole mountain of choices for different load equipment.
Limited choices would not be cool, and neither would being forced to use/apply various options available to us.
Choices are half the fun.
I would disagree respectively in that for example FBI criteria was based on a high degree of experience and specific need.
I might also add that a bad guy stopped is solid proof under the specific circumstances that round worked but the variation of conditions of which those proven rounds worked is evidence they work.
So making that choice based on odds alone are pretty good bet that they are worthy of that consideration.
One thing we may agree on it is a personal choice . I will base mine on good real,life data collected in situations that are more likely a good representations of what and how you may need to use the weapon to stop a threat.
Now I like the 10 allot but there is so much more to consider with regards to the aftermath and moment of truth that the 45 for now is my choice except those days I carry the 10....! ;D
Quote from: Ramjet on July 08 2013 08:47:58 PM MDT...but there is so much more to consider with regards to the aftermath and moment of truth...
Like what? Even within factory ammo choices there is nothing a 10mm load can't do that a 45 Auto load can. The expansion of HST in 45 may be the exception.
I really am not arguing 10 vs 45 as it is personal choice. But I tend to lean on the conservative side by choosing to carry what the experts and data have confirmed what works.
Example;
Prosecutor; "Mr. X, why do you carry that caliber for self defense?"
Mr. X; "well it is what the local Police use."
That is short answer hard to argue with.
Again both are excellent very capable cartridges its just a personal choice.
Great point Ramjet.Under questioning prosecuting team or a defense team along with a ballistic expert,it is wise esp in urban or enclosed quarters to make the choice of not just why a 10mm but what rational reason for such a round.The round itself is considered by many as a over penetrator by the uneducated, and that's just a fact,not being sarcastic.Even my fellow LEO's would say "Oh noooo,over penetration". However in my particular case and agency,we qualify with 2 allowed off duty pistols.Then they record what make of ammo,rated load,and must be jhp of course.That being said,i really focus on a lighter side and keep one at 180
to have versitility.In the end,an explanation will need to come forward to refute the big bad penetrator.Light side once proven and explained will dispel the over penetration factor.It just the price we pay as opposed to the common rounds.Count on it,they will focus on that against you.
Hey, I'm not saying things can't get hairy in court from various perspectives.
By the same token I'ld then like to know how you explain away the use of a 12 Gauge. 12ga shotguns with 00Buck at close range make 10mm Auto look like a BB gun, yet have been used in self defense maaaaaaaaaaaaaany times. I don't know, maybe you just consider a 12 Gauge not to be used for self defense either, simply on account of not being able to get a grip on explaining it away in court.
With that kind of thinking how do you explain away any rifle? Would you seriously not consider any rifle for the use of self defense?
With just what I've mentioned above practically explains your way toward 10mm Auto being a perfectly reasonable choice.
With that kind of thinking you would never consider a high capacity magazine (generally considered any mag holding more than 10 rounds).
pacapcop mentioned about many considering the 10mm Auto to be an overpenetrator. I submit to you that any so called ballistic expert knows better, and about 99.999% of the general public has no clue 10mm Auto even exists. This kind of talk sounds to me like you're confusing a courtroom group with a firearms forum on the internet.
More reasons for qualifying the use of 10mm Auto for self defense;
It is no more powerful than 357 Magnum which is a common self defense cartridge.
If you used an FBI spec load it is no more powerful than 9mm Luger which is an insanely common self defense cartridge.
Also; Why not?
I guess the bottom line is things can and sometimes do go wrong in court, and at that it could happen just as well in a case by the use of 380 Auto. By the same token, in court, the main thing is figuring out if you were even justified to shoot or not. And unless you used something like 50BMG, your chosen round if probably quite a ways down on importance. You make it sound like your worry about it as if there's a specific law against the use of 10mm Auto.
Keep in mind too, 10mm Auto has come a long way since any court case you are referring to. And like you mentioned, I also am not arguing 10 vs 45 as it is personal choice. Also, please don't take it that my intent is to be argumentative (even though by definition I'm making an argument ;D). I'm simply throwing my own personal view out there too.
No doubt everyone should make up their own mind as they see fit.
My thought process for 10mm carry is that the large frame Glocks fit me best and, when deciding between available calibers, 10mm offers the most flexibility with loadings.
When it comes to concealed carry and self defense I feel it best to focus on just one gun... so that factors in too. I am late to this party though and once my skill level is where I think it should be I may revisit that conviction.
All that said, I carry Underwood 165gr bonded defense in urban areas and 200gr XTP or FMJ when in the woods.
Redline you are good defender of the 10 but keep in mind we all love the 10 that's why we are here.
So we all agree to live by our personal convictions .
I am going to the 45 full size for now I carry the 10mm daily but the loads are about what a 40 can do.
So we are all one big happy family........... :D
sOnspark,
I think the Underwood 200gr XTP would make an excellent defense round anywhere (except maybe NJ with their questionable state statutes). With the velocity it is loaded to, I don't consider it to be overpenetrating. At least not based on Tnoutdoors9 video www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFUAmIgR918.
I will be trying some at the range tomorrow & decide whether that will be my every day carry load. My wife took my Glock 26, so now my Glock 20 is my edc gun.
Quote from: DAVIDF on July 10 2013 12:26:49 PM MDT
sOnspark,
I think the Underwood 200gr XTP would make an excellent defense round anywhere (except maybe NJ with their questionable state statutes). With the velocity it is loaded to, I don't consider it to be overpenetrating. At least not based on Tnoutdoors9 video www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFUAmIgR918.
I will be trying some at the range tomorrow & decide whether that will be my every day carry load. My wife took my Glock 26, so now my Glock 20 is my edc gun.
You may be right... my only concern with the 200gr XTP is I have seen/heard somewhere that it does not always expand properly (which is, of course, essential in a self-defense scenario involving humans) so that is why I've considered switching to FMJs for woods carry where penetration is the key and even partial expansion might be unhelpful. I do need to find some more data, though...
I've seen tests where the xtp's don't expand in bare gelatin or thru denim, but those were at far lower velocities than the ones that Underwood loads them to.
If you want more than 16 inches or so of penetration, then the fmj or TMJ would be much better.
XTP are pretty tough bullets one would wonder why Hornady does not load them in all there Critical defense ammo if they worked so well.
I was responding primarily to the store question and urban scene setting and load. I agree and it boils down to personal choice. Shotguns, well there are options too. There was a case in Arizona I believe where a man with a 10mm went thru a very sick trial because of his choice. His choice was a 10mm in the North AZ woods, now imagine a store or urban setting. He eventually was freed but went thru the ringer and the person he shot had a history of anger issues. And what do we have today, the most hell bent attempt on legal gun owners by the media and politicos.
Quote from: DAVIDF on July 10 2013 02:25:52 PM MDT
I've seen tests where the xtp's don't expand in bare gelatin or thru denim, but those were at far lower velocities than the ones that Underwood loads them to.
If you want more than 16 inches or so of penetration, then the fmj or TMJ would be much better.
Thanks - good to know :)
IIRC he (Harold Fish?) suffered due to some ambiguity in AZ's stand your ground law at that time (which was addressed and backdated so he'd be freed) and, more importantly, he seemed to have a less than capable legal defense team.
But point taken... the legal system is scary and when public opinion can influence the verdict as much or more than the law it really goes off the rails.
I hope Zimmerman gets a fair shake :-/
Exactly our point. It is probable that if you are in defensive shooting you're life will be turned upside down. 1/5 this country is unreasonably thinking (or non-thinking people) that think the conviction they were edoctrinated with, is far superior to your right to protect your life against a scumbag. Thus our cautious approach to weapon and ammo choice.
Zimmerman is looking good for the good guys. I like you hope so...........not guilty!
Quote from: Ramjet on July 09 2013 08:21:12 PM MDT
Redline you are good defender of the 10 but keep in mind we all love the 10 that's why we are here.
So we all agree to live by our personal convictions .
I am going to the 45 full size for now I carry the 10mm daily but the loads are about what a 40 can do.
So we are all one big happy family........... :D
You're right. Heck, we're both right. The problem isn't us, it's us having to worry about others with a twisted perception ultimately stemming from ignorance, and for some, actual hate on different levels. Well, last I checked, the world is still spinning. Maybe I should check again. ;D
Quote from: DAVIDF on July 10 2013 12:26:49 PM MDT
sOnspark,
I think the Underwood 200gr XTP would make an excellent defense round anywhere (except maybe NJ with their questionable state statutes).
I am from NJ and would like to know more about this and where you heard of this.
Thanks
Brian
I am not an expert, nor am I familiar with NJ statutes regarding firearms or ammunition. I have only read on gun forums that hollow points are prohited. Bullets such as Federal's expanding fmj are fine. Is that correct? Or is what I have read out in left field?
Quote from: Ramjet on July 10 2013 02:38:21 PM MDT
XTP are pretty tough bullets one would wonder why Hornady does not load them in all there Critical defense ammo if they worked so well.
I think they don't load them in the Critical Defense loads because those tend to be loaded at lower velocities (not always) and the Critical Defense doesn't seem to be as sensitive to velocity as the xtp is. Just my guess.
Good guess that is exactly right and they found the flex tip handled going through clothing and expanding much better than the XTP.
NJ is confusing. I say that that even LEO's from outside are under the impression that even if they entered the state there is a question of either fmj or hp. I inquired last fall fishing season in South Jersey with a local Captain, his response, what do you qualify with, nuff said. Now local resident's, don't know. Crazy state.
Out of state LEO would (or should) be covered under HR 218.
NJ residents beware. Hollowpoints are not legal to be carried in NJ.
What they carriyng exposed lead semi wad cutters?
Thanks 4949.
Pacapcop, you are quite welcome.
Ramjet, retired officers in NJ are carrying full metal jacket. Some are carrying Hornady Critical Defense, but that is debatable according to the statute which does not allow for any "dumdum" (read expanding) rounds.
Quote from: 4949shooter on July 12 2013 07:19:31 PM MDT
Out of state LEO would (or should) be covered under HR 218.
NJ residents beware. Hollowpoints are not legal to be carried in NJ.
That has to be one of the stupidest laws ever. I'll bet a lot of the cops in that state DO carry HP, and state issued HP!
Hi everyone! I'm new to the forum and was quite pleased to find a good quality site for 10mm enthusiasts, so here goes... I have an original (at least I assume it is, since I've had it since the model was new, about 15 years or so ago) Glock 29. To address the thread, I keep it loaded with MagSafe Defenders. They're a boutique frangible and I'd be interested in any learned feedback from the community. Secondly, I spend a lot of time in the back country (Wa. Cascades) and have been carrying the G29 more and more for personal defense. I traditionally carried a great bloody cannon about with me, but I've been lightening my load over the years. I've read on these boards that many recommend a hard cast bullet for hunting/defense vs. larger game, so here's my question: Some years ago I purchased a couple hundred Hard Antimony Lead rounds for target purposes and couldn't hit a blessed thing with them, at virtually any range. My assumption at the time was that it was due to incompatibility between the lead bullet and the polygonal rifling of the G20's barrel. Was this probably the case and, if so would there be a similar problem with a hard cast (as opposed to jacketed) bullet? Also, what limitations would the factory barrel place upon bullet/cartridge selection? Any feedback to the above will be highly appreciated. Thanks,
-Brooke.
lEmmerdeur, Welcome to the forum! I do shoot my own cast bullets (sized at 0.4015") thru my Glock 29 and Glock 20SF "factory barrels" with good accuracy but I also have a Storm Lake barrel for the G-29 with cut rifling that makes shooting cast bullets even better. May get an aftermarket barrel for the G-20 just because of using cast bullets.
Some bullets just are sized too small and suffer as shot thru the polygonal rifling. They tend to slide not getting a good purchase on the slick poly rifling. Hickok45 has some Youtubes showing the key-holing using Double Tap Hard Cast.
Brooke,
Regarding the Magsafe Defenders, I don't believe they penetrate deep enough for reliable defense use. Yes, in a perfect shot it may work better than other handgun rounds in a human size target. But, when a forearm is in the way, or a particularly large person, or against an animal in the woods that is larger than a human I would prefer just about any other load. The results from the Strasbourg tests make them sound spectacular. But that was a lab controlled experiment with perfect shot place from the side into a goats lungs. I would prefer something that does 15 inches or more of penetration in bare gelatin (more with denim) rather than the 7 inches or so with Magsafe.
http://guninstructor.net/Strasborg_Tests.pdf
Thanks Shadow and DAVIDF, great info! Does anyone know when Underwood might have something in stock, again? :-[
Cool. Just stopped by DoubleTap's site and ordered a couple boxes for experimentation in my G29. Some 155gr. XP's for carrying and some 230gr. HC's for back country carrying, once I see how well they shoot from my gun. Thanks again for getting me on the right track, folks. Never worried about it much with the ol' .50DEP :o, that'll blow big holes in anything! Just need to make the little Glock a little more "upwardly versatile."
230 Grain??? You talking 10mm or .45 here? I think ONCE I saw some 220 grain 10mm hard cast, but that's the heaviest. My main reloading book doesn't have anything for a 10mm 230 grain bullet.
Quote from: lEmmerdeur on July 18 2013 01:41:59 PM MDT...Glock 29. To address the thread, I keep it loaded with MagSafe Defenders. They're a boutique frangible and I'd be interested in any learned feedback from the community.
Welcome to the forum! 8)
I too would suggest against the MagSafe Defenders because getting enough penetration depth with them is a crapshoot.
If you like the explosive qualities of the lighter faster rounds (I do) I would at least switch to one of the very fast 135-155 grain conventional hollow point loads in whichever bullet you like best. They've worked well on deer as some here have shown, and get better penetration than the MagSafe offering.
Quote from: gandog56 on July 19 2013 08:33:18 PM MDT
230 Grain??? You talking 10mm or .45 here? I think ONCE I saw some 220 grain 10mm hard cast, but that's the heaviest. My main reloading book doesn't have anything for a 10mm 230 grain bullet.
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=158 (http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=158)
(http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/images/122_2273.JPG)
Quote from: REDLINE on July 20 2013 10:50:22 AM MDT
Quote from: gandog56 on July 19 2013 08:33:18 PM MDT
230 Grain??? You talking 10mm or .45 here? I think ONCE I saw some 220 grain 10mm hard cast, but that's the heaviest. My main reloading book doesn't have anything for a 10mm 230 grain bullet.
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=158 (http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=158)
(http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/images/122_2273.JPG)
Yeah, lead available, but where would a recipe be. I mean NONE of my reloading ,manuals have one for 230 grains.
Many of the rounds I load, in many calibers, are not listed in any book. If you aren't comfortable outside the box, don't load what isn't listed. Load development from scratch isn't for everyone, and shouldn't be in many cases.
Quote from: gandog56 on July 20 2013 10:56:57 AM MDT
Quote from: REDLINE on July 20 2013 10:50:22 AM MDT
Quote from: gandog56 on July 19 2013 08:33:18 PM MDT
230 Grain??? You talking 10mm or .45 here? I think ONCE I saw some 220 grain 10mm hard cast, but that's the heaviest. My main reloading book doesn't have anything for a 10mm 230 grain bullet.
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=158 (http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=158)
(http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/images/122_2273.JPG)
Yeah, lead available, but where would a recipe be. I mean NONE of my reloading ,manuals have one for 230 grains.
I suppose on the internet.
Quote from: DM1906 on July 20 2013 11:12:37 AM MDT
Many of the rounds I load, in many calibers, are not listed in any book. If you aren't comfortable outside the box, don't load what isn't listed. Load development from scratch isn't for everyone, and shouldn't be in many cases.
No, that was not my point. It's just I wouldn't know off the top of my head where to find a recipe since it's so uncommon.
Well if you followed McNett's post on some of the forums you could find some of his work...
this from GlockTalk is what he posted for the West Coast & Precision 220gr Hard Cast test (he mentioned they were HOT)
10.0gr Blue Dot WC220 - 1285fps 6"KKM
10.0gr Blue Dot PB220 - 1318fps 6"KKM
10.0gr Blue Dot PB220 - 1219fps G20
10.0gr Blue Dot WC220 - 1115fps G29 65F
using Beartooth WFN 200gr. bullets:
11.0gr. BD - 1336fps 6"KKM
11.0gr. BD - 1246fps G20
Quote from: gandog56 on July 20 2013 08:25:32 PM MDT
Quote from: DM1906 on July 20 2013 11:12:37 AM MDT
Many of the rounds I load, in many calibers, are not listed in any book. If you aren't comfortable outside the box, don't load what isn't listed. Load development from scratch isn't for everyone, and shouldn't be in many cases.
No, that was not my point. It's just I wouldn't know off the top of my head where to find a recipe since it's so uncommon.
The point is, there is no published recipe. What you'll find will be what someone else did, whether advisable or not. Most are not. You've said before you stay within book loads. How do you do that, when there's no book? The loads Shadow posted are over book for lesser bullets. I'm not saying don't use that load. I'm just saying. I use big-heavies in 10mm up to 240 gr. If you don't like lead, you can't get there from here. The largest copper clad 10mm bullet I have and use is 210 gr.
This is why the Pull-Downs which are being done helps dispel any myths and shows what the ammo makers are selling vs. the performance advertised. People can choose to work up and copy if they so choose. ;D 8)
Here are some Old Sayings;
Quote"You need to break some eggs to make an omelet"
Quote"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"
Quote from: The_Shadow on July 20 2013 09:53:35 PM MDT
This is why the Pull-Downs which are being done helps dispel any myths and shows what the ammo makers are selling vs. the performance advertised. People can choose to work up and copy if they so choose. ;D 8)
Here are some Old Sayings;
Quote"You need to break some eggs to make an omelet"
Quote"Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery"
Precisely 8)
Quote from: The_Shadow on July 20 2013 08:46:30 PM MDT
Well if you followed McNett's post on some of the forums you could find some of his work...
this from GlockTalk is what he posted for the West Coast & Precision 220gr Hard Cast test (he mentioned they were HOT)
10.0gr Blue Dot WC220 - 1285fps 6"KKM
10.0gr Blue Dot PB220 - 1318fps 6"KKM
10.0gr Blue Dot PB220 - 1219fps G20
10.0gr Blue Dot WC220 - 1115fps G29 65F
using Beartooth WFN 200gr. bullets:
11.0gr. BD - 1336fps 6"KKM
11.0gr. BD - 1246fps G20
Well, if I followed EVERY Internet site on everything related to reloading, I wouldn't have time to post HERE now, would I! :))
Besides I said I have reloaded 200 grain loads, and have seen recipes for 220 grain loads, just not 230 grain ones.
That Double Tap 230 grain load is the only 230 grain load in 10mm I know of.
As mentioned above, it didn't stabilize well in Hickok's stock G20 barrel.
gandog56, Don't take my post so personal...it is not and attack on you! It appeared you were at a lost for data or insight of where to even start if you were going to load that heavy 230gr. bullet. I actually made time to scourer the internet, it has been a labor of love and is still my mission to study everything about 10mm guns and loading data. You might even say (OCP) Obsessive Compulsive Passion. ;D
I was just showing information on how Double Tap 230 grain bullets that were shown here got their start...Mike McNett use to visit several forums and actually posted his results prior to and as he started the Double Tap company. The people got abusive and too abrasive toward him, and that sort of closed the door of communications on the forums. Who suffers from that? We all did, because he has a wealth of knowledge that is now kept to him and his company.
It is not hard to understand that as handloaders we ourselves could copy, can do our own work ups or disseminate known data and work with that data (plus/minus/equal) to use with other components.
If I had a 230 grain Hard Cast bullet and wanted a place to start with loading data, I would look at known data with pressures if available. If maximum data was still below MAP pressures for the cartridge, I would start a methodical process based off that information. Working up and looking for signs of excessive effects...some people have pushed beyond even that point, split or ruptured cases, leaking, pierced or popped primers :o
When I got my first 10mm gun March 1990, I started developing many of my own loads using Blue Dot because NONE were in printed manuals at the time. My dies from RCBS were labeled for 10mm Auto and NOT for 40S&W.
I compared data from 357mag and 41mag for reference being on either side of the 10mm. I was very pleased with my results at the time even though I did have a CHRONOGRAPH at the time.
In closing here, please keep things here on the 10mmFireArms site civil and very friendly. 8)
Shadow, I have to say that I'm happy that McNett doesn't post anymore. His relationship with the truth is strained at best and several of his claims have proven to be false. We've known for some time that his ammo no longer lives up to the claims and between the testing that you, Intercooler, and I have done, several of his forum posts have been proven to be fabrications. Some things he has posted are true and some are not. With no way to know whether he's full of it, without testing for myself, I'd rather just not hear from him.
If you go to my YouTube John Wright or search glock 29 100 yard underwood 180 gr good dots it'should pop up.
Im shooting underwood 180gr GD's out of my g29. I'm making double taps with nearly zero muzzle flip. If you point both thumbs straight at the target,"Long thumb grip." And lean into it like a boxing stance and use the icosoles triangle stance and apply equal stronge pressure to both palms on your grip you will reduce your muzzle flip by 50% just using the ling thumb grip. It's also amazing how many times I hit the small plate at that distance standing up. The video with towards the end of my session and I was getting a little lazy, at first I was Prob hitting 2/3 to 3/4 of the time.
Check out tnoutdoors for penetration on diff bullet loads, grains and power, you'll be supprised that some of the heavy fast stuff does not over penetrate. Underwood Gold dots for self defense and xtp's for Penetration for me both in 180. The gold dots tend to expand and make nasty peddles slowing them down. I've done extensive testing with this on pigs and deer with my g29. I also like to have a mag full of hard cast in the car and on me for when I need penetration or if I encounter some freak with body amour. My thought is it will knock the sh*t out of him and then I can go for the hip and then head.
Quote from: The_Shadow on July 21 2013 08:38:54 AM MDT
When I got my first 10mm gun March 1990, I started developing many of my own loads using Blue Dot because NONE were in printed manuals at the time. My dies from RCBS were labeled for 10mm Auto and NOT for 40S&W.
I compared data from 357mag and 41mag for reference being on either side of the 10mm. I was very pleased with my results at the time even though I did have a CHRONOGRAPH at the time
Yeah, and I just started using Blue Dot because in the middle of the powder drought, I managed to snag a 5 pound jug after I found it next to impossible to find my usual HP38 anywhere.