I responded to an open call from the editor of Police Marksman magazine. One of my articles was published in the latest issue. I'll have another in the next issue. My current article is over the pros and cons of rail mounted pistol lights. Check it out. It's a good mag and free to read online.
http://policemarksman.com/
That's pretty cool! 8)
On the cover,the shooter keeps that finger along frame. Im old school, weaver stance and cannot adjust to that finger out.
http://policemarksman.com/2013/09/10/bullseye-close-quarters-carbine-tactics/
This is my article in the current Police Marksman on carbine tactics. There will be a new issue as early as tomorrow with two articles and the cover.
I plan a 10mm article in the near future. I have a 610, G20 and 1006. I'm finding it difficult to articulate our position on the greatness of the 10mm for law enforcement. If anyone has any suggestions, please add them here.
Nice article Warren!
I am looking forward to that 10mm article. I wish I had suggestions as to how we could make police brass understand the 10mm is the greatest service pistol cartridge on the planet..
Thank you, 4949. I really enjoy your posts here and elsewhere. It's a tough angle with the 10 and LE. I don't want to do the history thing. It's been done to death. There really is no "evolution of" angle because that's pretty much over. There's either something there I can't put my finger on or I just really want to write about the 10. ;D
Quote from: enidpd804 on October 29 2013 09:57:04 PM MDT
I plan a 10mm article in the near future. I have a 610, G20 and 1006. I'm finding it difficult to articulate our position on the greatness of the 10mm for law enforcement. If anyone has any suggestions, please add them here.
The things that stand out to me are the variety of loads available (thus covering more situations) and excellent terminal ballistics at distance with a flatter trajectory. Comparisons to the venerable .357 magnum might also be important to note.
Also, I may be mistaken but I believe 10mm with bonded loads handles intermediate barriers better than .45acp.
It will be tough to sell the 10mm idea to Law Enforcement...Why? At this point in time many agencies are actually reverting back to the 9mm. They still believe more less powerful rounds are better than fewer potent rounds.
Law Enforcement has a duty to act, officer safety first, protecting and saving innocent lives and bring the perpetrator to justice. The last one being the goal of the department, bring the perpetrator or perpetrators to justice. Therefore less than lethal steps usually are used to accomplish the task. It is better for the department's public relations and legal standpoint.
Then there is the ammunition, universal standardization to one cartridge, that fits everyones firearm, cheaper from a budget standpoint, being a NATO/Military standard, just like the 5.56/223 makes it a feel good standard.
Just like the 10mm, the 40S&W doesn't fit any of these criteria, especially the International NATO standards, that this country has hearken itself to under the "O"Communist Dictatorship! Be weary of the U.N. agreements and proceedings.
The U.S. standard used to be the 45ACP but even this has been sliding except for a few die hard segments and special forces. They know of the heavier weight and ballistic knockdown it brings to the playing field.
So why should Law Enforcement, see the 10mm as fitting for their needs? It is too powerful, even when loaded to 40S&W ballistics. The guns are too big, too heavy, yet it doesn't hold enough ammunition, it recoils too much, doesn't fit peoples' hands, ammunition is too expensive, too hard to find. The 10mm will probably kill too many perpetrators, instead of bringing them to trial justice. :o
"We The People" don't have the the luxury of a police force at the time of encounter, therefore we need to utilize the best we can, to stop a threat! It is not our duty to bring perpetrators to justice, it is our duty to stop that threat!
QuoteSo why should Law Enforcement, see the 10mm as fitting for their needs? It is too powerful, even when loaded to 40S&W ballistics. The guns are too big, too heavy, yet it doesn't hold enough ammunition, it recoils too much, doesn't fit peoples' hands, ammunition is too expensive, too hard to find. The 10mm will probably kill too many perpetrators, instead of bringing them to trial justice
Don't forget than most LEO can't hit what they are aiming at. Their Dept. hasn't the funds to pay for their practice ammo, so they don't practice. The last thing American Citizens need is an LEO with a 10mm spraying rounds everywhere.
Quote from: The_Shadow on October 30 2013 09:58:30 AM MDT
At this point in time many agencies are actually reverting back to the 9mm. They still believe more less powerful rounds are better than fewer potent rounds.
Given how some of them seem to shoot I can understand the need for more capacity if they hope to hit anything other than bystanders :-/
I do think there is a growing backlash against what translates as a spray and pray mindset with some LE agencies, though. The public may know little of the difference between cartridges but they do understand the simple math of 3 shots fired vs 10...
Recently there was a local shooting involving the police where one of the responding officers apparently unloaded his duty weapon on a suspect hitting him 8 out of 10 times. Unfortunately the suspect was not a threat - he had been in an accident and was banging on some old lady's door late at night trying to get help. The media has had a field day with this.
Quote from: The_Shadow on October 30 2013 09:58:30 AM MDT
The 10mm will probably kill too many perpetrators, instead of bringing them to trial justice. :o
"We The People" don't have the the luxury of a police force at the time of encounter, therefore we need to utilize the best we can, to stop a threat! It is not our duty to bring perpetrators to justice, it is our duty to stop that threat!
Well said... definitely a case of differing objectives. Civilians generally do not have the benefit of other responders, radios, long guns in the trunk, etc. when the bad stuff happens. That is why it is advisable IMO to carry the largest caliber you can shoot effectively.
Quote from: Steve4102 on October 30 2013 10:18:53 AM MDT
Don't forget than most LEO can't hit what they are aiming at. Their Dept. hasn't the funds to pay for their practice ammo, so they don't practice. The last thing American Citizens need is an LEO with a 10mm spraying rounds everywhere.
There certainly can be a gap between the proficiency level of an LEO and what the public assumes. Several recent shootings have brought that to light.
Anyone who carries a gun needs to
train and do so regularly. If their agency does not foot the bill then it is up to the individual! Lax qualification requirements are also partly to blame... some I have heard of are just ludicrous!
LEOs are supposed to be highly trained professionals - yes, the bulk of their responsibilities are not related to shooting but demonstrating a high proficiency in that particular area (several times a year IMO) should be necessary in order to be allowed to carry. It is their JOB, after all!
This just really hits a nerve with me.
"Don't forget than most LEO can't hit what they are aiming at."
Don't forget that you don't have any idea the proficiency level nationwide of law enforcement officers. I've been to private ranges. Cops around here shoot a heck of a lot better than anybody I've seen. How much time do you spend at police ranges to give you such a wide knowledge base? Nevermind. I have no interest in your opinion. Keep your negativity out of my thread.
Quote from: s0nspark on October 30 2013 10:31:16 AM MDT
Quote from: Steve4102 on October 30 2013 10:18:53 AM MDT
Don't forget than most LEO can't hit what they are aiming at. Their Dept. hasn't the funds to pay for their practice ammo, so they don't practice. The last thing American Citizens need is an LEO with a 10mm spraying rounds everywhere.
There is a real gap between the actual proficiency level of many LEOs and what the public assumes. Several recent shootings have brought that to light.
Anyone who carries a gun needs to train and do so regularly. If their agency does not foot the bill then it is up to the individual! Lax qualification requirements are also partly to blame... some I have heard of are just ludicrous!
LEOs are supposed to be highly trained professionals - yes, the bulk of their responsibilities are not related to shooting but demonstrating a high proficiency in that particular area (several times a year IMO) should be necessary in order to be allowed to carry. It is their JOB, after all!
This just really hits a nerve with me.
According to CLEET, when I went through the Academy, LEO's statewide had a 70% hit average in gunfights. At the time, there was a big news item about LEO's nationwide having only a 17% hit ratio. I don't know what it is currently. I never hear about bystanders being shot in this region. I do hear about it in states far, far away who have lax standards, 12# Glock triggers, etc.
Anyway, that's not what this thread is about. I'd like to keep it on track.
...and the new issue was just posted. ;)
http://police-marksman.epubxp.com/title/37149?miniPop=false&alwaysCover=false&miniTitle=&miniColor=&miniLinkToTitle=false&miniUrl=&miniBg=FFFFFF&hideBg=true&width=701&height=440&sharing=false
Matulia (1985) stated that although Hollywood often portrays
police officers as sharp shooters, "in reality many police officers have a difficult
time meeting departmental qualification standards at the firing range,
let alone during a combat situation"
Michigan police departments, officers involved in deadly-force
encounters hit suspects in approximately 27% of the incidents (from 1976
to 1981). Research in New York City showed consistently low rates from
year to year for the New York Police Department (NYPD): 26% for 1987,
31% for 1988, and 23% for 1990 (Cerar, 1990; NYPD, 1988). Rates have
been less stable in Los Angeles where during the 1970s officers in the Los
Angeles Police Department (LAPD) hit their suspects in 56% of cases, but
from 1980 to 1988, the rate dropped to 28% (Meyer, 1980; M. Scott, personal
communication, February 17, 1989). Alpert (1989) reported that from
January 1984 through June 1988, officers in the Metro-Dade, Florida,
Police Department fired at 100 suspects, hitting their target in 31 cases. Pate
and Hamilton (1991) reported similar hit rates for the six largest police
agencies in 1986. The Dallas Police Department (1992) completed a survey
of big-city police departments during 1991, and rates ranged from a low of
http://cvpcs.asu.edu/sites/default/files/content/projects/hitting%20target%20article_0.pdf
Pretty sad shooting when carrying that thingy on your hip is there to save your life.
QuoteI have no interest in your opinion. Keep your negativity out of my thread.
Is that an Order?
Quote from: enidpd804 on October 30 2013 12:10:31 PM MDT
...and the new issue was just posted. ;)
Good article :-)
Quote from: Steve4102 on October 30 2013 12:32:56 PM MDT
QuoteI have no interest in your opinion. Keep your negativity out of my thread.
Is that an Order?
This is the last bit of attention you will get from me. Have a nice day.
Quote from: s0nspark on October 30 2013 12:40:24 PM MDT
Quote from: enidpd804 on October 30 2013 12:10:31 PM MDT
...and the new issue was just posted. ;)
Good article :-)
Thanks much, sir. The review on the SW1911sc only took a week to write. A buddy posed for the picture. Carry a Big One was written over a year ago and took about a month to complete. It's my favorite by far. Anyone who is interested should submit an article. It's a lot of fun and the people at Hendon Publishing are absolutely great. They are paying me to go to SHOT Show in January.
Many departments have adopted new training and proficiency standards, as it pertains to take down and restraints, they also have beefed up the firearms senaiors inside dwellings with close quarter drills. There have been some cross trainings with other agencies as well. Some have stopped maintaining certain record details because it can be used against them in court, so it is either pass or fail.
The guys locally down here, have some various drills that are under simulated lighting, no lighting, role play with simunition training. Have seen these simunition training rounds in some pistol cartridges to include 9mm, 40S&W.
Here is yet another dilemma for agencies going to 10mm, "New procurement contracts" would be needed for in many cases where guns don't exist in that cardgridge...i.e. S&W, SIG and Springfield, leaving the dreaded Glock as their only choice to test and showcase their experience with the ballistic power of 10mm. Then if S&W, SIG and Springfield were to produce a competing lineup chambered for 10mm those gun parts many not be interchangeable with other departmental weapons due to dimensional differences.
So as we can see the FBI "screwed the pooch" as it pertains to 10mm guns and ammo, it started out as a ray of salvation knowing full well they required a cartridge capable of delivering more potential energy to the target, only to neuter it into something else less capable!
But the ammo companies have pushed up the performance of the 9mm's and 45's with +p and +P+ performance, that has also worked against the 10mm becoming the proper ballistic package...
Forgive me as I am playing the devil's advocate trying to show reasons or issues in the relationship of 10mm and Law Enforcement needs. For me make mine a 10! ;D
Quote from: The_Shadow on October 30 2013 01:19:16 PM MDT
Many departments have adopted new training and proficiency standards, as it pertains to take down and restraints, they also have beefed up the firearms senaiors inside dwellings with close quarter drills. There have been some cross trainings with other agencies as well. Some have stopped maintaining certain record details because it can be used against them in court, so it is either pass or fail.
The guys locally down here, have some various drills that are under simulated lighting, no lighting, role play with simunition training. Have seen these simunition training rounds in some pistol cartridges to include 9mm, 40S&W.
Here is yet another dilemma for agencies going to 10mm, "New procurement contracts" would be needed for in many cases where guns don't exist in that cardgridge...i.e. S&W, SIG and Springfield, leaving the dreaded Glock as their only choice to test and showcase their experience with the ballistic power of 10mm. Then if S&W, SIG and Springfield were to produce a competing lineup chambered for 10mm those gun parts many not be interchangeable with other departmental weapons due to dimensional differences.
So as we can see the FBI "screwed the pooch" as it pertains to 10mm guns and ammo, it started out as a ray of salvation knowing full well they required a cartridge capable of delivering more potential energy to the target, only to neuter it into something else less capable!
But the ammo companies have pushed up the performance of the 9mm's and 45's with +p and +P+ performance, that has also worked against the 10mm becoming the proper ballistic package...
Forgive me as I am playing the devil's advocate trying to show reasons or issues in the relationship of 10mm and Law Enforcement needs. For me make mine a 10! ;D
It is much appreciated, sir. Agreed. The SWAT team gets one day with the rookies. The first half of the day is room clearing. The second is active shooter. We end with scenario-based training with Sims. It's fun to go on a call with one of the new guys you've trained and see them react appropriately because of the effort the department put out. Sims is definitely the difference. The square range is only the foundation of firearms training. There is still a house to build after that.
I'm really not trying to sway LE into using the 10mm on a large basis. I just want to write an article on the benefits in a cop-oriented magazine. People make their own decisions.
The reputation that 10mm has for being some semi-nuclear death ray can be off-putting... Sure, it is stout with high energy loads but it remains controllable.
QuoteThis is the last bit of attention you will get from me.
Thanks Warren, I appreciate it.
Does this mean I can still post my thoughts and link articles and facts without being told to find another forum, or being ordered to "keep of" your threads. Cool Thanks.
Face it Steve, we all know you don't like cops. Your posts are very indicative of this fact.
Now you come on someone else's thread and are causing problems.
You are trolling, Steve. And I don't mean you are trolling for bluefish.
Quote from: 4949shooter on October 30 2013 04:40:48 PM MDT
Face it Steve, we all know you don't like cops. Your posts are very indicative of this fact.
Now you come on someone else's thread and are causing problems.
You are trolling, Steve. And I don't mean you are trolling for bluefish.
Stating Facts, is causing problems?
If I am trolling, it's up to the Moderators here to scold me and correct my behavior, Not a couple Cops that can handle the truth.
Quote from: Steve4102 on October 30 2013 04:45:05 PM MDT
Quote from: 4949shooter on October 30 2013 04:40:48 PM MDT
Face it Steve, we all know you don't like cops. Your posts are very indicative of this fact.
Now you come on someone else's thread and are causing problems.
You are trolling, Steve. And I don't mean you are trolling for bluefish.
Stating Facts, is causing problems?
If I am trolling, it's up to the Moderators here to scold me and correct my behavior, Not a couple Cops that can handle the truth.
Face facts....you are trolling. This is plain for all to see.
Whether or not the moderators choose to deal with you is their decision.
Quote from: 4949shooter on October 30 2013 04:47:28 PM MDT
Quote from: Steve4102 on October 30 2013 04:45:05 PM MDT
Quote from: 4949shooter on October 30 2013 04:40:48 PM MDT
Face it Steve, we all know you don't like cops. Your posts are very indicative of this fact.
Now you come on someone else's thread and are causing problems.
You are trolling, Steve. And I don't mean you are trolling for bluefish.
Stating Facts, is causing problems?
If I am trolling, it's up to the Moderators here to scold me and correct my behavior, Not a couple Cops that can handle the truth.
Face facts....you are trolling. This is plain for all to see.
Whether or not the moderators choose to deal with you is their decision.
It's really is hard for you guys to not have complete control, isn't it. Anything that isn't High Five the LEO Community or complete compliance is very difficult to accept.
Smashing down bathroom doors and terrorizing a 16 year old boy is OK, cuz your LE. Anyone that has issues with that they are Bashing you or Defying you.
here is a quote from a former LEO on another forum. Pretty much says it all on the sad state of the LEO in this country.
I was a cop, but retired now. And glad I am! The old days are mostly gone. Old time police work is a dead art. Talking to someone and getting their cooperation has gone and slamming down their door and intimidating them and their family is the new tactical solution to many a problem. Reasoning with a person was always the better choice, but now it seems that scaring them into obeying is the tactical choice. The problem is one that you see being less seen because of this tactic. People will choose to not assist the police, choose not to cooperate willingly. The police will be seen as the enemy, instead of someone you can turn to when a problem comes up. We have seen this in third world countries where the people fear police, and police abuse of the populace is prevelent. What happens when you can no longer tell your child that if they are lost or have a problem, find a cop and he will help you. Not all cops are that way, but as the older ones retire, the "officer friendless", they are replaced by young officers who are more Agressive in their tactics. The federal government is assisting in "militarizing" the police forces. But there are many that are not. But if this trend continues, one day when things get worse, the federal govt will "federalize" the local police forces and take control of law enforcement as a whole. And then we are all in for a bad time. You should be proud that your retired Brethren have less respect for you than I do.
Lol! :)) I am not trying to be controlling! I am just pointing out the facts as you say.
YOU Steve, are trolling. And it isn't just on this thread. Your behavior on this forum over the past days has revealed your behavior as trolling.
Enjoy your cop hate, my friend. ;) For every negative police occurrence you post, there are thousands, maybe even millions, of positive police interactions.
But you seem to be the only one on this forum who doesn't understand that, or want to see it.
Quote from: 4949shooter on October 30 2013 05:06:43 PM MDT
Enjoy your cop hate, my friend. ;) For every negative police occurrence you post, there are thousands, maybe even millions, of positive police interactions.
True. This issue is not as black and white as some would suggest.
There are good cops and bad cops (ok, LOL) but it is foolish and shortsighted to try and lump all in either category.
As Warren requested, let's keep this thread on topic. One can always start a new thread to just rail against "the man" ;-)
As a moderator I could step in and ask for some civility and to keep things on topic, but I feel we are adult enough to sort of control ourselves and or posting. I don't like it when things start to take on a personal attack, Why? Attacking one another is not what this forum is about, and it is ok to share facts and opinions that show another point of view if it doesn't take on a whole direction.
I feel enidpd804, stated in a very firm tone, he did not want his topic/subject to be trashed in an effort to keep it on track. But when others start passing their own judgements this will start getting cloudy and argumentative. The purpose of the thread is disrupted to the point of be useless and feelings and friendships become strained. Sometimes letting people work things out amongst themselves is good for the building of a friendship as long as things remain respectful.
Because this has been one of the friendliest forums we remain sort of laid back, but that doesn't mean we will not act! I could go in and delete post, modify post or close entire threads...is that what any of you want? I don't think so, however I have done so in the history of this forum. I am not the only moderator here either.
Now back to the subject, today's Law Enforcement faces a strained society, with a quick temper and are quick to lash out or over react to their presence or intervention. This can be seen in family disputes where the person the LEO is trying to protect turns on the officers...Oh yea, that happens alot! The youth of today as stated in other post here and elsewhere lack any and all respect for Law Enforcement, especially those under peer pressure of gangs where they try to make a show of disrespect toward the LEO's. LEO's are placed in bad situations as it is, but a confrontation in a crowded area can turn deadly very quickly these days.
I would agree with what the retired LEO stated, but we are getting off the topic of trying to explain, why law enforcement would or should carry a 10mm pistol for duty. How would it benefit him or hamper his duties?
I'm thinking of starting the introductory paragraph with the challenges rural cops/deputies face. Longer shots, larger potentially dangerous animals, thicker clothing on two legged critters. These guys could use a pistol capable of handling these challenges.
I've let other guys on the SWAT team use my G20 on poppers at 100 yards. It's do-able most of the time with medium level loads like ST. With Underwood, there's really no need to hold over. There's almost no drop at that range with the hot stuff. There are some definite advantages there. For those who are allowed to and want to carry a revolver, the 610 fits the bill. Capable of slightly more pop than a .357 mag in a familiar N frame package, it would seem to fit the bill just fine.
Quote from: enidpd804 on October 31 2013 07:01:55 AM MDT
I'm thinking of starting the introductory paragraph with the challenges rural cops/deputies face. Longer shots, larger potentially dangerous animals, thicker clothing on two legged critters. These guys could use a pistol capable of handling these challenges.
That seems like a good approach.
One point that might bear mentioning is, for those of us that live in rural areas that border on metro areas, 10mm serves as an excellent choice. I normally load on the heavy end but I keep alternate carry ammo loaded in mags and if I find my day takes me into the city I can swap to ammo more for urban threats...
Quote from: s0nspark on October 31 2013 07:22:03 AM MDT
[...]
I normally load on the heavy end but I keep alternate carry ammo loaded in mags and if I find my day takes me into the city I can swap to ammo more for urban threats...
I think our tendency to worry about over-penetration ("through-and-through") in urban environments might be naive and misguided. For one thing, there is no over-penetration like the over-penetration you get when you completely miss the target, no matter what ballistics you are using. And even if you DO hit the target, a bullet that can adequately penetrate a 220-lb bad guy, who's wearing a heavy coat, WILL over-penetrate a 110-lb scantily-clad bad-girl.
Quote from: Mike_Fontenot on October 31 2013 09:09:10 AM MDT
I think our tendency to worry about over-penetration ("through-and-through") in urban environments might be naive and misguided. For one thing, there is no over-penetration like the over-penetration you get when you completely miss the target, no matter what ballistics you are using. And even if you DO hit the target, a bullet that can adequately penetrate a 220-lb bad guy, who's wearing a heavy coat, WILL over-penetrate a 110-lb scantily-clad bad-girl.
I totally agree that a miss should be the bigger concern... and I lean towards having more penetration rather than less when choosing ammo. The woods ammo I carry, though, is not appropriate for CCW. I typically carry Underwood 200gr TMJs when four-legged critters might be a threat... My street ammo of choice is Underwood 165gr Bonded Defense.
Quote from: s0nspark on October 31 2013 09:22:06 AM MDT
I typically carry Underwood 200gr TMJs when four-legged critters might be a threat... My street ammo of choice is Underwood 165gr Bonded Defense.
I agree that a 10mm 200gr FMJ round is overdoing it in an urban environment ... and I wouldn't recommend 220gr hardcast either!
For quite a while, I've been alternating 150gr and 180gr Nosler JHP DoubleTaps in each of my mags, just to "hedge my bets". But based on some of the comments on this forum, about inadequate penetration, I've just bought some 200gr Nosler JHP DoubleTaps, and if they prove to cycle OK in my gun, I'll add them to the alternation in each magazine. I'll still start with the 150gr round (the chambered carry round), then graduate to 180gr, then to 200gr, then repeat ... . That way, I'm trying to avoid over-penetration, but I'll increase penetration if the lighter rounds don't solve the problem.