You're probably wondering why in the world someone would want to use the Lee FCD without full length sizing? The answer is: I already have one and I wanted to see if I could make it work for me (and I'm cheap!). :P I think I've figured this out.
In the 10mm I have experiencing some leading/deposits with the DT .401 200gr. WFNGC (lead) and BBI 165 gr. (poly-coated) bullets. As we all know, sizing is critical when dealing with lead/coated bullets (usually 0.001" over slugged diameter). The Lee FCD was swaging the bullets from .401" down to ~.399"-.3985" depending on how thick the case was (I found that PMC are the thickest).
With the BBI poly-coat bullets you really need to seat and crimp in separate steps as to not shave the coating. I use a Lee Classic Turret (4-hole) and could seat the bullets then in another step adjust the seating die to crimp the already seated bullets, but that would slow down the process for me.
What I ended up doing is adjusting the Lee FCD up until it contacted just enough of the case mouth to take out the bell (the Lee FCD normally touches the shell holder). The bullets are no longer getting swaged down, the case mouth measures good, and the cases all drop freely into my KKM barrel.
This obviously does not give you the option to increase the crimp beyond flush, but in the 10mm you really don't need to do anything more than take the bell out of the case mouth.
Hope this is helpful!
Update (Pictures Added):
Approximate case thickness at the mouth (new Starline brass, the PMC brass is much thicker which swages even more!)
(http://alphaphotography.smugmug.com/Ammo/Lee-FCD/i-LgzCRvD/0/L/IMAG0240-L.jpg)
165 Gr. BBI measurement before seating (some are .400 and .405, average of .405)
(http://alphaphotography.smugmug.com/Ammo/Lee-FCD/i-ZzCqzMF/0/L/IMAG0241-L.jpg)
The amount of bell given (just enough for the bullet to sit flush by itself and not shave any material)
(http://alphaphotography.smugmug.com/Ammo/Lee-FCD/i-H2jzzhx/0/L/IMAG0242-L.jpg)
1.256: COAL on this loaded round
(http://alphaphotography.smugmug.com/Ammo/Lee-FCD/i-bgCmvm7/0/M/IMAG0243-M.jpg)
Case mouth measurement after seating but before Lee FCD
(http://alphaphotography.smugmug.com/Ammo/Lee-FCD/i-R3L5dLx/0/M/IMAG0244-M.jpg)
You can see here how far up the Lee FCD is adjusted (just enough to contact the case mouth and remove crimp)
(http://alphaphotography.smugmug.com/Ammo/Lee-FCD/i-2LvKbgD/0/L/IMAG0245-L.jpg)
Way up in there!
(http://alphaphotography.smugmug.com/Ammo/Lee-FCD/i-VcDWT82/0/L/IMAG0246-L.jpg)
(http://alphaphotography.smugmug.com/Ammo/Lee-FCD/i-LffPzRt/0/L/IMAG0247-L.jpg)
Case mouth measurement after Lee FCD only touching case mouth
(http://alphaphotography.smugmug.com/Ammo/Lee-FCD/i-HRn2sp6/0/L/IMAG0248-L.jpg)
Now It's time to pull the bullet to see what's going on...
(http://alphaphotography.smugmug.com/Ammo/Lee-FCD/i-4rRg2Ck/0/S/IMAG0249-S.jpg)
Not too much swaging going on here!
(http://alphaphotography.smugmug.com/Ammo/Lee-FCD/i-kx2NPpC/0/L/IMAG0251-L.jpg)
Now let's try one with the Lee FCD adjusted down...
(http://alphaphotography.smugmug.com/Ammo/Lee-FCD/i-hmhGDDD/0/L/IMAG0252-L.jpg)
Doesn't look too bad when measuring the brass...
(http://alphaphotography.smugmug.com/Ammo/Lee-FCD/i-VR97H5h/0/L/IMAG0253-L.jpg)
....but the bullet tells another story! (even from this angle you can see that there is a line where the bullet was swaged down)
(http://alphaphotography.smugmug.com/Ammo/Lee-FCD/i-8sc9hDp/0/L/IMAG0256-L.jpg)
Now let's try some DT .401 200 gr. WFNGC (Same new Starline case)
(http://alphaphotography.smugmug.com/Ammo/Lee-FCD/i-9X7TJzG/0/M/IMAG0257-M.jpg)
Measurement before seating
(http://alphaphotography.smugmug.com/Ammo/Lee-FCD/i-5F4SLsT/0/L/IMAG0258-L.jpg)
Didn't seem to affect it as much but still not looking too good!
(http://alphaphotography.smugmug.com/Ammo/Lee-FCD/i-vGtfQ6C/0/L/IMAG0260-L.jpg)
Of course I realize that I could do the same thing by buying a plain taper crimp die or seating & crimping in separate operations with my seating die but I like to experiment! (As I am sure many of you do as well).
As I posted in another thread, all of these rounds drop freely into my KKM & Glock factory barrel and function flawlessly.
Richard:
Have you tried pre seating the Bullet to your OAL (with a Crimp) using a standard Seater Die, then use the FCD to just crimp it (not seat the Bullet too)
If you are ''crimping" with the FCD until the die contacts the shell holder, you're WAY off the mark. It's only used to apply the crimp to the desired diameter, and nothing more. The "sizing" will only size to chamber diameter, in any case, if you are using it WITHOUT the crimp ring. Follow the instructions and it won't swage your bullets too small.
My 10mm/40 Lee Factory crimp die had issues. The carbide ring was IMO to small, it was swaging my lead bullets and causing issues with jacketed. I sent it back to Lee and had them Open it up .002. Works perfect for both jacketed and lead.
My 45 and 9mm LFCD worked perfect right out of the box.
Quote from: DM1906 on June 12 2013 12:59:03 AM MDT
If you are ''crimping" with the FCD until the die contacts the shell holder, you're WAY off the mark. It's only used to apply the crimp to the desired diameter, and nothing more. The "sizing" will only size to chamber diameter, in any case, if you are using it WITHOUT the crimp ring. Follow the instructions and it won't swage your bullets too small.
I'm sorry that I wasn't very clear about what is going on and what I'm doing. As Steve4102 described the carbide sizing ring at the entrance of the die is too tight for cast/coated bullets and swages them down regardless of how the crimp is set. The way you are describing the FCD it sounds like you are thinking of the Rifle FCD which operates differently than the handgun FCD. The handgun FCD crimps exactly like a taper/roll crimp die except it has a carbide sizing ring at the entrance of the die.
I wasn't aware that Lee would open them up, I need to send mine in and have it done. Did they charge you anything?
Den, I do not seat the bullet with the FCD (it wouldn't work). It is the sizing ring being too small for the cast/coated bullets that is the problem, my explanation is a workaround. I am going to be firing ~150 10mm rounds today that I loaded with the FCD sizing ring barely touching the case mouth. They all measure right and drop in the barrel freely but I will let you know how they function in the gun.
I did use my LEE FCD as a final crimp die in the beginning, It is what I bought it for. However it actually made the bullets loose inside the casing. I could twist them around which allowed them to spin inside.
I tried several several settings, more and less. The results were not what I wanted. I when back to using my RCBS for the seating to depth and then crimping in separate steps.
I found that the problems where more to do with improper sizing of the entire casing body than it was with seating and crimping...
Therefore I only use my LEE FCD for "Pass-Thru" sizing, prior to regular sizing and depriming...
This is the only way to fully size the entire casing stem to stern, any regular die can not reach the areas that are occupied by the radius of the carbide ring or the shellholder. ???
One thing is for certain they will slide all the way inside the Lyman cartridge case gauge easily. This gauge (SAAMI SPEC.) has a tighter tolerance than the chambers of most barrels. The pictures below are my attempt to convey sizing issues.
The casing came out of the Glock factory barrel as shot then resized.
Here is a picture of a casing that was sized in an RCBS Carbide sizer touching the shellholder as it sits in the Lyman Case Gauge...it did fit my barrel chamber of the S&W1006 but not the LWD chamber.
(https://s20.postimg.cc/awq54d659/IMG_0895_zpsbabb92ca.jpg)
Here is that same casing after being run thru the Lee FCD used as a "Pass-Thru Sizer" as it sits in the Lyman Case Gauge...
It is flush with the "Go" line and below the "No-Go"...
(https://s20.postimg.cc/mlu4sc4tp/IMG_0896_zps35ce2f76.jpg)
Get yourself a case gauge and see for yourself!
QuoteI wasn't aware that Lee would open them up, I need to send mine in and have it done. Did they charge you anything?
Yes, and it wasn't cheap. I think it was $25.
Over at cast boolits they have reported that some of the Lee dies are loose enough to not cause swaging issues, while others aren't. I have never tried mine as I don't subscribe to the type of crimp the FCD applies to a straight wall case.
I love them for my bottle neck cartridges.
$25! Wow! I will buy a new taper crimp die for $13 or punch the ring out before I spend that kind of coin on this die. In the meantime... hope to get out shooting today and I will let you know how my "fix" works. :)
Quote from: sqlbullet on June 12 2013 10:24:30 AM MDT
Over at cast boolits they have reported that some of the Lee dies are loose enough to not cause swaging issues, while others aren't. I have never tried mine as I don't subscribe to the type of crimp the FCD applies to a straight wall case.
I love them for my bottle neck cartridges.
My LFCD apply a standard taper crimp to my pistol rounds. What don't you like about a taper crimp?
If the FCD is working correctly (apparently some have been undersize), it will crimp the case, appropriate to the cartridge type. Autos will taper, revolvers will roll. I think from my experience, it does as well or a better job than the seat/crimp die in a set, comparing only the crimp step (not seat/crimp). It's more consistent and more "gentle" on the case mouth, as it doesn't rely on the VERY short end-stroke to crimp, unlike a seat-crimp die that must apply the crimp with the bullet still seating. Not real critical on a revolver cartridge with a crimp-groove bullet, but it makes a difference on autos and revolvers w/o a groove.
DM:
That is way I seat (to OAL) first, then crimp in a second operation
This way, I do not get any Flashing around the Case Mouth and I run a lesser risk of cutting the Jacket / Plating
Quote from: DenStinett on June 12 2013 08:20:48 PM MDT
DM:
That is way I seat (to OAL) first, then crimp in a second operation
This way, I do not get any Flashing around the Case Mouth and I run a lesser risk of cutting the Jacket / Plating
That's good, and the way it should be, regardless of the closing/crimping die used. It's especially critical with plated bullets like you said, as it can cut the plating.
Just a quick update: I ran about 75 rounds that I had loaded using the method described in the OP. As I expected they all functioned flawlessly and leading/deposits were eliminated. I will try and get some pictures soon.
OP Updated with pictures.
RMM very nice pictorial additions. 8)
Yes, nice pictorial.
I think something is amiss with your results. Either your FCD is defective (undersize), or there's something we aren't seeing here. I repeated your process (the important parts) with 10 dumby rounds. 5 Remington once fired brass, 5 new Starline, and 180 gr. TC cast bare bullets (no lube), .402".
Results:
Case mouth/wall, after firing, no tooling: .424".
Lee FCD, case only, no crimp ring, full length case size: .422".
Sizing die (3 used, one 20 year old Lee, one 5 year old Lee, one 5 year old RCBS): .419".
Bullets seated to 1.250", no crimp
Case mouth to bullet base: .422-.423".
Lee FCD only, no crimp ring: .422"
-- Bullets pulled measured .402" full length of bearing surface.
Lee FCD with crimp ring.
In accordance with the instructions, approximately 3/4 (three fourths) turn after ring contact.
Case mouth: .421", .422" within .050" of mouth. 1-1/2 (one and one half) turns: .420".
Bullets pulled: Minimal crimp, .402". Additional crimp (1-1/2 turn): .400, but only in the "groove" caused by the crimped case mouth, .402" behind that.
I continued crimping at one full turn each. Bullet diameter never changed, with only the case mouth crimp area reducing each time. The minimum diameter with "normal" force needed was never below .400", while excessive crimping (several turns), didn't feel right and was obviously excessive. The MOST I could get the bullet to squeeze down to was .397", but that was ONLY at the area of the crimp. The forward driving band was tapered to the crimp, but the rear area of the forward band was still a minimum of .401". The rear driving band never changed. Always .402", no matter how much FCD crimp was applied. Trying to get a diameter below .397" resulted in a crushed case.
How any .400" bullet can be reduced excessively in diameter by only the FCD (assuming it is correctly sized), and cause a leading condition is beyond me.
What is the diameter of an empty case sized ONLY in your FCD, with no crimp ring? If it's less than .422", that could explain the problem. If so, the tool is defective.
DM, I agree with you whole-heartedly. Thank you for taking the time to give us your data point and experience. My FCD is sizing ring is undersized. It touches all of my rounds every time, even FMJ to varying degrees(180 HST & 200 XTP). Thick case walls (Like PMC) exacerbate the problem, loading 180 HST in a PMC case requires considerable effort to push through the ring. My 9mm & 357 FCD do not do this, every once-in-a-while I get a round that feels like it is lightly being sized, nothing at all like what I am seeing here. This is definitely a sizing ring diameter issue, it has nothing to do with the crimping portion of the die. The swaging occurs well before the crimping portion of the die is contacted.
After doing some research it is apparent that there is a wide variance (although we're only talking thousands-of-an-inch) in Lee FCD sizing rings. Some get a loose one, some get a tight one, and some (like you DM) get one that is just right. What isn't right is having to spend $25 to get them to open it up to the correct size. I am going to contact Lee and see what they have to say about opening it up. I can understand contacting on oversize bullets, but not on FMJ on every loaded round.
I appreciate all of your comments, and if I am wrong about this I have no problem in admitting so. I am a scientist at heart and like to really understand what is going on with stuff like this.
From what you've posted, it looks like yours is about .002" undersize. This is not acceptable, and is probably the major cause of your leading issue. I too have several others, and they're all dead-nuts on.
I wouldn't "pay" to have it corrected. It should be right, and the warranty should cover it. $25 gets you a new die, so spending $25 to repair one (especially under warranty) is just crazy. I've always had excellent customer service from Lee over the past 30 years, including the last experience about a month ago. Give them a call with your measurements/results and request a replacement. At most, it should cost no more than a phone call and postage to send them yours. Lee Precision: (262) 673-3075
DM1906... what is the measurement on your FCD sizing ring? I'm going to go pull mine out now and see what it is.
.420 as close as I can measure with my Harbor Freight calipers.
I think alot of the issues people have with Lee service can be traced to how problems are described. I think they treat "my FCD is out of spec small" differently than "I need my FCD opened up a bit".
But I couldn't say. I do know i have read reports that they wander a bit on spec.
Mine is measuring .421/2 with digital, and .4218 with analog. I slugged a couple .430 lead bullets through it and they're .422, .4219, respectively.
Sounds like I'd be happy if it were opened up about 2 thousandths of an inch.
Perhaps, but as SQL said, that may be the wrong language. I'd be more inclined to have it replaced with a tool that's not defective. If our measurements are accurate, the fact is defective, not "need to open it up".
I had to explain my problem several times but Lee authorized the return of the FCD under Warranty. They will inspect and repair or replace.
any updates?
Quote from: RMM link=topic=1318.msg16317#msg16317 date=1370987778
The amount of bell given (just enough for the bullet to sit flush by itself and not shave any material)
img]http://alphaphotography.smugmug.com/Ammo/Lee-FCD/i-H2jzzhx/0/L/IMAG0242-L.jpg[/img]
You had me scared a second there. I was thinking he's CRAZY if the bullet sticks out that far. I now assume this was BEFORE you seated the bullet!