Intercooler sent me the JAG brass from the Selway 180 grain loads that was shot from his pistol.
Chronograph info:
Match 4.75" 1156, 1167, 1159, 1145, 1158. Average = 1157 FPS/ 535 LBS
Razorback 5" 1192, 1169. Average = 1180.5 FPS/ 557 LBS
1006 5" 1153 FPS/ 531 LBS
Those guns have good chamber support and these were medium loads.
JAG Brass Expansion
0.4315"
0.4310"
0.4250"
0.4310"
0.4300"
0.4250"
0.4315"
0.4315"
While this was the order which I measured them, it does seem to indicate which ones may have be shot from which of the guns. Can you pick the guns which fired which from the measured cases? ??? While I have no way of knowing exactly, the measurements seem to indicate which cartridge was fired from which. 8)
I have studied the data from Jag's website and I was impressed by their product. From my inspections and measurement I really like this brass. I reconditioned these brass by "Pass-Thru" sizing, then run them thru the regular handloading process and reloaded them with some of the powders and loads that match Some Factory loads.
10mm rounds were put together with Hornady 200 grain XTP's...soon these will be headed to Intercooler for testing.
Hornady 200 grain XTP one each of the following;
9.4 grains IMR800X - matches Underwood loading 1250 fps
9.4 grains LongShot - matches Swamp Fox's loading 1240 fps
10.5grains Blue Dot - matches my load I use 1200 fps
8.4 grains Power Pistol - matches my load 1235 fps
12.6grains AA #9 - matches Accurate Arms book load 12.5 1170 fps 37,000 psi
RCBS 200 grain cast TCBB (SWC) made 3 of these with my cast bullets
10.0 grains Blue Dot - 1200 +
Intercooler's test will show us even more data as he post the results... ;)
This will be a great test of the JAG Brand of brass, maybe Intercooler will be able to collect these afterwards and send them back for re-evaluation sometime in the future. ;D
is JAG still just an OEM supplier and can us mortals buy their brass now too?
For now Jagemann Technologies is not sold to individuals as components yet...Please contact them to put that bug in their ear! :P http://www.jagemanntech.com/ (http://www.jagemanntech.com/)
This is my write up:
QuoteHello, I have obtained some of the Jag 10mm brass and studied it after the cartridge has been shot. I must say I am impressed so far with the quality and workmanship. I am in the process of re using your product via my own handloading. I will be putting some loads together to equal the upper limits of performance and this will be my best judgment of this brass' performance from a re-loaders' stand point. While this testing will push the product to known limits, I remain confident that it will provide good service. I will write a report back after I test the ones I have.
It would be nice to have more of the Jag Brass as new vs. used to test even more in the real world performance. Maybe you could send me a small sample to work with...that would be some real help.
I hope that some day you will offer your products for sale to those of us who handload our own cartridges, for our performance needs.
Thanks and best regards,
;D
Help me out. Can you match the brass up for me?
You shot 5 from the Match I see these as being 1 @ 0.4310" / 4 @ 0.4315"
You shot two from the RazorBack 2 @ 0.4250"
You shot one from the S&W1006 1 @ 0.4300"
It is just how I think of them as they were measured and based on that expansion! Does this sort of make sense? ???
Yea. Would it help any if I got pre/post measurements on stuff I fire? Where to measure? I'm going today with the Hunter.
I usually rotate the cases looking for a MAX measurement which comes fairly low on the casing where we normally see some bulges and or smiles. Pre-measuring a casing is really not too important, but to judge a load's pressure acting on the casing vs. chamber dimensions are usually what we are looking at.
As we observe a high impulse loading the brass will swell to fit the chamber, lighter loadings may not fully expand to max chamber size. So measuring your chamber in comparison to the expended case expansion is can tell you if the brass is exceeding the chamber at the 6 o'clock position and if the pressure exceeds that of the brass' strength as is evident by what we term a "SMILE" / "FROWN" depending on which way you look at the casing! :D :(
While splits and case cracks that run the length of a casing, tends to indicate a brass that is brittle and resisting the expanding forces. :-\
I took my calipers and measured pre/post this evening right up from the extractor groove.
American Eagle 180gr FMJ fairly light 10mm load (Razorback) .419"/.425", .419/.424", .419/.424". Average = .0053"
RightToBear 180gr FMJ good medium 10mm load (Razorback) .419"/.424", .419"/.423", .419"/.423". Average = .0043"
Underwood Ammo 180gr TMJ strong 10mm load (Razorback) .420"/.424", .419"/.424", .420"/.424". Average = .0043"
American Eagle 180gr FMJ fairly light 10mm load (Hunter) .419"/.428", .419"/.429", .419"/.428". Average = .0093"
RightToBear 180gr FMJ good medium 10mm load (Hunter) .420"/.431", .419"/.429", .419"/.430". Average = .0106"
Underwood Ammo 180gr TMJ strong 10mm load (Hunter) .420"/.431", .420"/.430", .420"/.430". Average = .0103"
Remington 115gr FMJ (XD) .384"/.389", .385"/.389", .385"/.389". Average = .0043"
Independence 115gr FMJ (XD) .385"/.388", .388"/.388", .387", .388". Average = .0013"
Looking at that .388" starting number it was pretty fat and did nothing. Does that pretty much mean max expansion on this barrel is roughly .388"?
It also looks like you are right that my Razorback is the tightest (chamber support correct?). I kind of always thought it may because if one is more particular on the ammo...it's this one!
Would love to see some comparison Glock numbers in a stock barrel and aftermarket (finger pointing at the new owner) ;)
I will do the 1006 and Match next time out but I think you have those pegged.
You are seeing what I was saying! :D Yes the Razor Back does seem to have the tighter chamber.
The pistol you shot the 9mm stuff, looks to be 0.389" Chamber, with the Independence 115 FMJ being slightly less pressure than the Remington 115 FMJ...
There can be a difference in bullet diameters and length that can affect pressure values
There can be a difference in bullet seating depth, crimp and case retention that can affect pressure values
BTW, nice job recording your values and documenting them. 8)
Remington is loaded a little hotter than the Independence.
When picking up brass in the past I did notice the Razorback's looked a little better. In this way of measuring things can we tell what 10mm out there has the best support? Need a Kimber to do the test.
The largest case expansion from my S&W 1006 was casing Diameter from Tested 11/29/2012 Underwood 135 Gr. Nosler JHP 1738 fps : Diameter 0.4325" @ the light "Smile" primer GONE popped out!, case didn't eject.
Tested 11/29/2012 Underwood 155 Gr. Hornady XTP 1503 fps : Diameter 0.4280"-0.4270" primer slightly flatten
Tested 11/29/2012 Underwood 165 Gr. Hornady XTP 1415 fps : Diameter 0.4275" primer slightly flatten
Tested 11/29/2012 Underwood 180 Gr. Hornady XTP 1326 fps : Diameter 0.4275" primer slightly flatten
Tested 11/29/2012 Underwood 220 Gr. Hard Cast WFN 1209 fps : Diameter 0.4285" primer moderately flatten, case didn't eject.
The largest case expansion from my Glock 29 Factory Barrel was casing was 0.4340"
This was from IMR 800X 10mm test with the 800X 9.4 grains under the 200 Grain XTP, 350 CCI LP, seated to 1.255"
From the Storm Lake factory length barrel I have only seen 0.4265" as a max so far.
You guy's must be unemployed or retired, NASA maybe? All I know is that I like to take a few fired cases and cycle them through my Smith 3rd gens after cleaning as a function test. I know immediately when I hit a round fired from a glock, gotta dig out the needle nose pliers and twist her out. Smart huh? I did it yesterday.
MCQUADE, yes I'm retired but still do odd jobs grass cutting etc.
You need some dummy rounds for you cycling testing. Do you handload?
Reload some but still a novice but learning alot from you guys. I do have most of my stuff but I don't have a place to set it up yet ,working on that. Hopefully, I can retire in 6 years with 30 years of service but it ain't getting any easier. I do cast and use a friends press for now. Been buying underwood mostly. But....I blew out my right knee on Memorial Day and am out of work for a month, maybe I need to bolt the redding turret up.
Yeah...you can tell the difference between the guys that are retired and can shoot in the backyard compared to those of us that still work and drive 90 minutes to a range where you can set up a chronograph ;).
I am in the latter category unfortunately.
IC, it is a tighter chamber, but that is different that what is meant by chamber support. A tighter chamber is different and has advantages and tradeoffs. Easier on brass, more accurate, slightly, but not statistically significant increases in velocity. Downside is reliability when fouled, ability to handle out of spec ammo.
I like my chambers about like your Razorback personally. I find the Glock chambers a a little on the loose side for my taste in addition to not having a good head support.
I did a repeat on the Match using RTB 180gr and Underwood 180gr 1300. The results averaged about identical to the Hunter... .420" start and .430" when fired - .010". Next time out I will do the 1006 but it still looks like the Razorback is the tightest. ;)
Today I put some more through the Hunter and 1006. It was the 1006's turn for the mic of truth!
Using Underwood 1300: .420"- .428", .420"- .429", .420"- .429". Average = .00866". Given these results the 1006 is second behind the Razorback. Both Witness pieces are tied for third.
Hard to believe the Razorback is almost 2X tighter than all the others. It all makes sense in what I see though firing them.
Here are some Glock numbers with Underwood 180's. You are looking at almost .440" in some cases! :o with a bulge.
http://www.handgunforum.net/range-report/32022-underwood-10mm-180grtmj-report.html#post270074
Intercooler, has learned wisely about the chambers of his guns! Never too old to learn a new trick! :D
I'd bet that the chamber on Sean's Kimber II is quite a good fit like your Razorback...
In the grand scheme of things how much does this equate to no kaboom? I will do the limited too when it gets here.
When you say; KABOOM; do you mean the point at which the barrel chamber actually splits, or just a brass case failure (where the brass case splits but the barrel chamber still contains the pressure)?
A KABOOM! is generally a case blowout. Sometimes this correlates to other VERY BAD THINGS, but often not in modern firearms. A 1911 with wood grips may need a new set. Sometimes a Glock will have cracks in the frame.
Quote from: Intercooler on June 24 2013 09:55:27 AM MDT
In the grand scheme of things how much does this equate to no kaboom? I will do the limited too when it gets here.
Well if your brass doesn't get expanded like a pregnant guppie, you are less likely to stretch it out to the point of shearing with the better chamber support. It is also why your test of the extreme ammo has served you safely over the years in your guns!
But, don't be fooled that you can just load and shoot beyond the brass case's capacity to contain the pressure.
Bongo Boy had a scary experience a short while back he shared on GT...
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x150/Bongo_Boy/Handloading/10mmovermax04_zps611c4670.jpg)
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x150/Bongo_Boy/Handloading/10mmovermax05_zpsf9aab498.jpg)
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x150/Bongo_Boy/Handloading/10mmovermax03_zps8db34fd4.jpg)
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x150/Bongo_Boy/Handloading/10mmovermax02_zps7471fc2b.jpg)
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x150/Bongo_Boy/Handloading/10mmovermax01_zpsd6444b50.jpg)
QuoteInterestingly, when this one lit up it didn't feel or sound any different than the previous 30 or so rds from the same box, other than the fact the action was open and wifts of smoke were emanating from every nook and cranny of the gun (EAA Witness Hunter).
Lucky me (as usual), no apparent damage to the gun or to me. I believe these loads were 10.6gr HS6 and 165 gr JHPs, although clearly there was 'an issue' with this particular one. All rounds fired felt quite modest.
Check out the stretch on that case base--whew. Very lucky for ductile brass, eh?
Why is that brass so ugly? My guess is it has been loaded several times at least.
That is gonna be the result of the kaboom. Look at how far out that primer pocket is blown.
The black is going to be soot from the fired case being ground into the brass from the pressure.
So if it were a Glock you may have had a Kaboom?
Quote from: The_Shadow on June 26 2013 10:43:03 AM MDTWell if your brass doesn't get expanded like a pregnant guppie,.....
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x150/Bongo_Boy/Handloading/10mmovermax03_zps8db34fd4.jpg)
The_Shadow,
What firearm was that round in the picks you put up fired from?
Redline, Under the picture in the Quote...(EAA Witness Hunter) as handloaded & shot by Bongo Boy also a member here.
The brass being shown is Armscor, others also had some issues using this brass as it became very plastic like under the pressures.
Ahh. The picture is a little clearer even more. The only splits I ever had in 10mm were with brand new Armscor cases (BVAC) ammo. Possibly double trouble there!
Quote from: The_Shadow on June 26 2013 07:41:50 PM MDT......The brass being shown is Armscor, others also had some issues using this brass as it became very plastic like under the pressures.
I had a very similar experience with what I believe was Armscor brass. The supplier (DT) refused to say where the brass was sourced, but did say it was "the only batch of brass they strayed from Starline". He replaced all the brass I bought (plus some) with their "good" stuff, and paid return shipping. My post (over a year ago, with pics) is earlier in the same thread. I've also had issues with Armscor brass in other calibers over the years.
I just checked some of my *-* and Win 10mm brass shot out of my LW 5.25" barrel. All .420 at the mouth and .425 above the extractor groove. Just like the chamber measurement. I have to do a quick one time dressing of new brass case mouth with a cheap Lee tool or they won't feed right.
I have not shot one round through the Glock Gen3 OEM barrel. It's as sloppy as a $2.00 whore.
Were these upper end loads or tamed down when you measured?
Quote from: Intercooler on June 28 2013 06:06:05 PM MDT
Were these upper end loads or tamed down when you measured?
Intercooler
Mine where well above book, XTP's screaming and hitting like a rhino. I have chrony info on them I just have to look it up,,,, sorry it's not on my puter. There were 155, 180 and 200gn XTP's getting stupid. And my target was some 5lb defective step down transformers setting on 2"x2" bean poles (ash) The 10mm loads where only bested by hot .41 mag loads. My way hot .357 H-110 loads only beat the the 10mm loads at distance thrown at 125/135gn loads. Those fast nosler 135gn bullets are useless. They really are useless, 135gn they should pay us to load them. There even more useless than 185gn .45 acp or Gap.
That's tight then. When you talk about trimming the brass I wonder if that's why I get the little shavings out of the Razorback? It' really tight... maybe too much in a way.
Quote from: Intercooler on June 28 2013 08:00:31 PM MDT
That's tight then. When you talk about trimming the brass I wonder if that's why I get the little shavings out of the Razorback? It' really tight... maybe too much in a way.
Intercooler
I don't trim my new 10mm brass. I chamfer / bevel the inside and outside edges of the case mouth. Honestly it's more like deburring. If I don't do this I have feeding issues. Once done the brass feeds great from then on.
I also detailed the barrel inside and out. It shoots great. Cleans up very easy. And has bling inside and outside. 8)
Performed the test on the EAA Limited Pro today using Underwood 180gr TMJ.
.420"-.429", .420"-.428", .420"-.428", .420"-.430", .419"-.429". Average = .0088"
Using JAG Brass I loaded 10mm rounds put together with Hornady 200 grain XTP's...sent these to Intercooler for testing. These had been pass through sized. This is also the second firing.
Hornady 200 grain XTP one each of the following; He sent the brass back to me for further study.
Here are e results with expansion measurements at the widest measurement
9.4 grains IMR800X - matches Underwood loading 1250 fps actual 1216 FPS/ 657 LBS.
0.4310" primer slight wipe OK, case mouth has a wipe mark
9.4 grains LongShot - matches Swamp Fox's loading 1240 fps actual 1256 FPS/ 701 LBS.
0.4330" primers slight flatten some wipe OK
10.5grains Blue Dot - matches my load I use 1200 fps actual 1138 FPS/ 575 LBS.
0.4310" primer slight wipe OK
8.4 grains Power Pistol - matches my load 1235 fps actual 1195 FPS/ 634 LBS.
0.4310" primer slight wipe OK case mouth has a tiny wipe mark
12.6grains AA #9 - matches Accurate Arms book load 12.5 1170 fps 37,000 psi actual 1130 FPS/ 567 LBS. 0.4320" primer slight wipe OK
13.0grains AA #9 - Above Accurate Arms book load 12.5 1170 fps 37,000 psi (2 Winchester Brass) 1129, 1165. Average = 1147 FPS/ 584 LBS. both @ 0.4330" primers flattened some wipe
RCBS 200 grain cast TCBB (SWC) made 3 of these with my cast bullets
10.0 grains Blue Dot – 1200 actual 1096, 1080, 1119. Average = 1098.33 FPS/ 536 LBS. 0.4305" / 0.4305" / 0.4305" primer very slight wipe OK
Here are two Double Tap factory loaded cases for comparison.
DT 180 Noslers 9.0 grains of LongShot 1305fps actual 1077 FPS/ 464 LBS. 0.4315" primer very slight wipe OK
DT 165 Noslers 9.6 grains of LongShot 1425fps actual 1303 FPS/ 622 LBS. 0.4335" primer slight wipe OK
Judging from these results, I see this JAG brass as a very viable option for handloaders and reuse... ;D
Quote from: blastfact on June 29 2013 11:12:45 AM MDT
Quote from: Intercooler on June 28 2013 08:00:31 PM MDT
That's tight then. When you talk about trimming the brass I wonder if that's why I get the little shavings out of the Razorback? It' really tight... maybe too much in a way.
Intercooler
I don't trim my new 10mm brass. I chamfer / bevel the inside and outside edges of the case mouth. Honestly it's more like deburring. If I don't do this I have feeding issues. Once done the brass feeds great from then on.
I also detailed the barrel inside and out. It shoots great. Cleans up very easy. And has bling inside and outside. 8)
I realize this post has been up for some time now however If anyone would like to ring in on this I would greatly appreciate the info...first, when you say feeding issues are you reffering to feeding in the reloading press or the firearm? Second, I have many nickel, supposedly once fired cases that are below the maximum trim to length...are these cases ok to reload? I have loaded some of them that were close to the trim to length and have had no real issues other than some feeding issues in the firearm thus my concern with the chamfer / bevel procedure...thank you for any insight on this topic!
BigD63, Hello and welcome to the forum! 8)
Most of the new casings can have some edges from the machining process, this should be cleaned up so. Why as you are loading it can snag the bullet material when seating (especially plated bullets and cast), this material can be dragged inside the casing causing a bump inside or even roll up along the case mouth, which it can cause headspacing issues. The burr removal helps tremendously not only for smoother handloading operations at the taper crimp station it does add to better feed and cycling in the firearm as well. :D
Most straight walled casings (10mm included) do not need trimming. Their lengths can vary during production runs and from different makers. If you read through the "Pull-Dow" section here you will find various lengths as found in ammo production runs.
Best regards!
I bought a bag of 100 pieces of JAG brass at Cabelas tonight packaged as Team Never Quit brand. It looks really well made and was $3 cheaper than the bag of Starline 10mm brass hanging next it.