http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=20348330#post20348330
Did you tell them a forum member here experienced it with reduced loads? It's a Starline issue as it turns out.
I just wonder if the Starline issue is here to stay. Either way we don't know what pressure level Underwood's loads are being loaded to regardless he claims 37,000 PSI for everything, and since there's been clear evidence some rounds are leaving the factory overcharged, the emphasis on Starline may be to some extent exaggerated.
To the best of my knowledge their has never been a case split (talking new brass) in Starline across the board by all MFG's in standard brass. If you know of when let us know. I also don't know of anyone else loading 10mm in Nickel brass except Remington which is their own Nickel brass.
Double Tap has loaded in nickel plated brass. Don't know if they still do.
You may be right that we have no instances of standard Starline brass splitting within the context of this conversation. I'm not 100% sure, but can't find anything to suggest otherwise at the moment.
Quote from: Intercooler on June 04 2013 05:54:29 PM MDT
Did you tell them a forum member here experienced it with reduced loads? It's a Starline issue as it turns out.
No I must have missed that.
The fact is, Kevin's ammo is still having issues for whatever reason that he needs to address. You shouldn't take it personal when these issues are brought out in the open. Let's get the problems taken care of so people will have safe ammo to shoot.
I don't take anything personal. A solution has been offered and info conveyed. I struggle with the why. If I had some issue with an ammo of anyone's (not just Underwoods) I contact them. At that point the options are presented and I go with what makes me be okay with the outcome. Then maybe I don't use the product after that. Seems Starline is totally getting off the hook without even a phone call or email instead of Kevin taking the brunt of what isn't his issue to solve. No doubt he should be putting Starline on blast but he doesn't make the failing brass.
Quote from: Intercooler on June 05 2013 06:09:57 AM MDT
I don't take anything personal.
Cool. 8)
Though I think there are other issues coming into play with Kevin's ammo besides the brass. This has been suggested here by a few. Whether he is providing us with over pressure rounds or the quality control is suffering, something doesn't seem to be right.
The Glock 10mm pistol has been around since 1990 or so. I know you say Kevin's ammo runs fine in
your guns, and you point to the other platforms as the issue. But he 10mm Glock has been around for decades longer than Underwood Ammo has. My point is, Kevin should be tailoring his ammo to the existing 10mm guns, and it shouldn't be the other way around.
Don't forget, in the early days the Colt Delta Elite pretty much saved the 10mm cartridge from sinking. The Glock 20 kept the 10mm sailing. If it weren't for these two manufacturer's guns we might not have a 10mm today.
I agree but disagree. I think he is making some subtle changes but for my own uses don't want to see his ammo become a 10mm lite loading. I think we have enough of those out there already! I have pushed some of the makers hard to make their ammo more like the originals. Their are countless rounds in all calibers that have been ran without issue but we do hear of a few here and there. Expecting a company to change their core to fit a few sometimes don't work either. Who knows what he might do later but since I never had issue 1 don't change mine.
He sold out his last offering of 135's.Shooters appear to continue to enjoy his product and I grabbed 2 for myself. Everyone's preference various but I believe their are those and myself included really interested in not only safety but what the original load was intended to be. If someone wishes to shoot outside the 180 1300 or 200 1200 level,free will. By sticking to Norma Spec or close,it's a win win for all.
Quote from: Intercooler on June 05 2013 07:13:05 AM MDT
I agree but disagree. I think he is making some subtle changes but for my own uses don't want to see his ammo become a 10mm lite loading. I think we have enough of those out there already! I have pushed some of the makers hard to make their ammo more like the originals. Their are countless rounds in all calibers that have been ran without issue but we do hear of a few here and there. Expecting a company to change their core to fit a few sometimes don't work either. Who knows what he might do later but since I never had issue 1 don't change mine.
Nobody said anything about 10mm lite. Here's the thing...some of Kevin's loads approach and perhaps even exceed the old Swampfox "Nuclear" level loads. But Mike Willard specified these loads as for use with an after market barrel (close to full chamber support) and increased power recoil springs
only. These loads were listed as such on his website. Kevin doesn't make such recommendations, and some of his ammo is just as hot. Then, you throw in some quality control issues and you have what we have been seeing...split cases and kabooms. It isn't the guns it is the ammo. Like I said, the Glock was around decades before Kevin's ammo.
If you don't want to listen to me, listen to what Pacapcop is telling you. We don't suggest 10mm lite we suggest standard
Norma level loads. These are what the guns were designed for. Listen to Redline, Sqlbullet, and the Shadow. They are all telling you at least some of Kevin's loads are over pressure. How can all these knowledgeable 10mm shooters and loaders be wrong?
Let me say, I am not trying to trash Underwood Ammo. If I were I would be putting this out on Glocktalk where there is a larger reader base. This site is still a smaller, more closed community. I feel I can speak my mind here without hurting anyone's business. I do want Kevin to succeed, but if you are someone he confides in you aren't helping him by not listening to what has been said here by some smart shooters.
Speaking as someone who has never reloaded, and has extremely limited experience with pistols, I really like what Underwood offers. If I want 10mm loaded to .40 S&W levels, I have any number of common off the shelf loads available. I don't want to pay DoubleTap prices, nor support a company, regardless of what they did for 10mm in the past, who is at this point intentionally lying about their FPS numbers (either change the FPS on the website/box, or load them to do what you say they do). That leaves Underwood for hot 10mm...unless there's another manufacturer I've missed.
What I would like to see, if Underwood is not able to take steps to get these rounds out safely, is for them to offer a somewhat reduced loading to cover for the misloads...say a 135gr at 1500 instead of 1600, and then another 135gr offering that is marketed at - max - loading 1600 with a disclaimer that due to the max loading nature and manufacturing tolerances, this is a 'Likely you'll be fine but shoot at your own risk' loading. Let the customer decide: Safe but hot loaded 10mm, or, Probably safe but ragged edge (for automated loaded) 10mm.
I think those that are shooting 10mm will be able to understand and appreciate the difference.
EDIT: Let me add: I bought some .45 +P for my good friend and my cousin. While it's only 50 rounds to each of them, I worry a little if it's the same deal. With me I research before I buy and I understand the risks/odds. With them they and their wife/girlfriend are going to head out to the range and blow that ammo off in their XD's. I'd feel pretty sh1tty if someone got hurt. If there was a .45 +P 'safe' load and .45 +P nuke load, I'd have got the 'safe' load instead for them. I know this isn't 10mm and I have no idea if Underwood .45 +P has ever had a problem, just thought I'd throw that out there...
Chuck
HEre is a curious question, that is somewhat off topic.....
IC, do you know if Kevin has a random sample of production ammo tested for pressure, or does he send "prep" loads...eg loads he carefully assembles by hand to ensure they are loaded on his spec for powder, bullet weight, COAL, etc?
I would hope he is just using random production samples.
I don't have the answers to some of those questions. Doesn't help preaching to me about his 10mm ammo because I have conveyed info to him but I'm okay with anything he makes including stuff the public has never shot or will. I would ask him to come here for a question and answer session but feel it may turn into something ugly or a few wanting him to scale his stuff back more than already has been done. Some people really don't even shoot Underwood but still want it scaled back ;D
That's the reason I think express your opinions, likes, dislikes, suggestions straight to Kevin and it will catch more traction. Show of hands who has phoned up Underwood Ammo?? When it does catch traction I'm a PBR fan hardcore until that needs changed too.
My problem with PBR is they never have a 10mm in stock so they might as well sell 22lr's. Ihave now shot about 5000 of Kevins all nuclear poer loads from a glock with not one thing done to the gun.Factory everything. I have had maybe 50 smiles out of 5000 rds so I either got a great gun or I do not have ammo problems. most of my shooting id 155Gr HP and in solids 165 grains. I have aslo thrown in for testing 180 GDHP 180solids and even 100 220gr HC all these in a G20 that I would not sell to anybody period and I have a lot of Glocks.I am now lookiing for a really nuclear load for my new Ruger 10mm because it can take a lot more than an auto.
PBR hasn't had brass in 10mm I agree. That does kind of stink but when it's there just order what you can.
Quote from: Intercooler on June 05 2013 05:51:25 PM MDT
I don't have the answers to some of those questions. Doesn't help preaching to me about his 10mm ammo because I have conveyed info to him but I'm okay with anything he makes including stuff the public has never shot or will. I would ask him to come here for a question and answer session but feel it may turn into something ugly or a few wanting him to scale his stuff back more than already has been done. Some people really don't even shoot Underwood but still want it scaled back ;D
That's the reason I think express your opinions, likes, dislikes, suggestions straight to Kevin and it will catch more traction. Show of hands who has phoned up Underwood Ammo?? When it does catch traction I'm a PBR fan hardcore until that needs changed too.
IC, I consider us friends so I know you won't take this the wrong way...
It isn't our jobs to phone Kevin with our likes and dislikes. It is
his job to produce safe, quality ammo. You are the one that speaks to him and advocates for him on line, so naturally we are going to you with our concerns. If you didn't advocate for him constantly we wouldn't come to you. The topic comes up for discussion almost daily here.
If Kevin comes here for a Q&A session it really should
not get ugly. He as a responsible business owner should be listening to his customer base and its feedback. If he is going to take this personal than this is bad for his business. We are really only trying to help.
As far as us who don't "shoot" Underwood ammo, well I don't know what you mean. I have personally ordered and shot at least 500 rounds of his ammo. I have experienced the good and the bad. No. I don't think I will be buying anymore until this gets sorted out, except for maybe the Delta Elite load if it ever comes back.
I'm just as much an advocate of PBR or any good 10mm ammo at a reasonable cost. The other two decent ones myself and others can't afford to shoot in any quantity. I pushed really hard for PBR to do their line if you remember. It's sad we really only have the two. Lose one and we all pay over $1 a round.
He means me when he talks about not shooting Underwood.
I handload everything I shoot at this point, including my carry loads. (Yes, I know the risks.)
If I were to buy 10mm ammo, I would buy from Kevin. And I am very interested in making sure that two things happen. 1.) Less knowledgeable shooters are able to safely appreviate and enjoy full power 10mm ammo at a reasonable price and 2. ) Kevin would be my first choice to succeed in making #1 happen.
Where to start...The thing is; Kevin does not need to come here or any other forum and answer anything from anyone. He already knows his 10mm Ammo has blown up guns, and maybe more of the negative issues (horrendous smilies in some cases that were on the verge of blowing up a lot more peoples guns).
The issue is not that it has happened. The issue is that Kevin hasn't seemed to give a single thought too it, or cared, until possibly just recently (which the jury is still out on).
If Kevin knew/knows (and he did/does) his ammo has been creating issues mainly with Glock platforms, then why hasn't he AT LEAST put up a relating disclaimer aimed at Glock platforms, just like with the Colt Delta Elite? I'm having a hard time coming to any conclusion other than he just doesn't care.
Do I want to give him the benefit of the doubt? HECK YEAH!!! I have pretty solid respect for any ammo manufacturer who doesn't lie about stuff like what bullet they are using, and what real world velocity the loads can be expected to achieve, and at a great price to boot (which has gone up and will probably continue to do so)! The problem is the issues revolving around his ammo have existed for some time, didn't go away, and he has come across as if he could have cared less, being that he chose not to adjust/change anything for an awfully long time, if he even has yet, being that I'm not aware what his current line of changes is meant to solve.
As for comments about fear that Kevin is being pushed toward only offering something along the lines of 10mm Lite; I have yet to hear anything from anyone suggesting that's what they want, or even remotely close to it. I sure as heck don't! In my mind there isn't anything wrong with his current line up of INTENDED loads. The problem is somehow some Underwood 200gr XTP loads among others have left the factory with higher powder charges than were ever INTENDED. It's because of this that I won't shoot any of Underwood's ammo through my stock Glock barrel(s).
If Kevin would correct his overcharging issues there wouldn't be an issue. But so far it doesn't seem he even cares. Either way, nobody is in the hunt for 10mm Lite ammo. By the same token nobody here is interested in a few 10mm rounds here and there (too many) that leave the factory above SAAMI specifications, let alone way above what Norma ever put out. IE: you don't get a 200 XTP bumping 1300 FPS from less than a 5" barrel using 800-X powder while at the same time staying within SAAMI specifications.
Here's a way to look at it; Pretend you are Kevin Underwood, all things being what they are and have been. You somehow arrive at some recipes for 10mm Auto ammo. You start selling it and some time afterward hear about major safety issues arise from a handful of your customers. What do you do? I'm guessing it would be more than nothing. I'm guess you would have tackled the issue head on, and quickly to boot. Yet Kevin didn't. Why? We don't know. Is it ignorance? Was he too busy? I don't know. The question in my mind is; What else are we supposed to think? What reason at this point do I have to come to any other conclusion?
I hope Kevin gets things sorted out. I hope that one day we can look back at this and have a laugh. So far it's not looking good. And in the mean time some will choose to shoot Kevin's 10mm ammo, and some won't, or at least not through a stock Glock barrel. An unsafe load practice is simply not worth taking the risk on in my view. Think about those poor fellas pawning off their own handloads at gun shows that many of us would never take a chance on in terms of assuming their ammo is loaded within safe pressure levels. Is their ammo probably fine? Yes. Have people had issues with some? Yes. And yet here we have a manufacturer that we KNOW has let ammo leave a commercial factory setting well over SAAMI specifications......and I'm not supposed to question it openly?!? Because why? Because screw safety for fear of 10mm Lite being the only outcome? What? That doesn't even make sense.
I sincerely hope the future proves Kevin eventually addressing all current known issues with his ammo that we never have need to question it again outside of true oddities that happen with all ammo manufacturers at one rare time or another.
Starline brass; Is there an issue? It SEEMS like it. There is way too much unknown data to say for sure, or to what extent. What we think we might know so far is based on so little information that it may just as well be considered coincidence, or, someone misinterpreted what they think but don't realize what really happened. I AM NOT SAYING THERE ISN'T AN ISSUE WITH AT LEAST SOME 10mm Auto STARLINE BRASS. I don't know. I am saying we are at more of a hypothesis level than a theoretic level. More info gathered over time will tell.
Before I read Redline's post here I posted this on another topic in this section;
You know a lot of people are speculating that whatever issues where caused (need proof) "THAT IT IS THE AMMO'S FAULT!"
Let's take a step back and consider this;
What condition is that gun in? New?/Used?
Was it cleaned and lubricated properly? This needs to include the barrel and bore.
Has the person made any changes or mods?
Was it properly put back together?
Has the gun had any previous issues?
Just having a split casing is not much of an issue. I have seen many brass split on the first firing.
Having a blow-out is a different story. Things that come to mind are over pressure, weak/defective brass, early unlock or out of battery ignition.
What about a fouled barrel? Some of the jacketed & plated bullets can leave copper fouling. We all know that lead and lead alloy can leave fouling and build up. If this fouling is allowed to build up and is not cleaned, someone running high impulse ammo through a barrel in this condition, will lead to even higher pressures as a bullet is being forced through this condition. Barrel obstruction is a very serious condition, something like a squib being a worst case comes to mind.
I always clean & inspect my barrel and bore then apply a light coat of oil with a patch after every use. Some avoid oiling like it was the plague. I don't understand that theory as I think thin coat oil would lessen the fouling.
Now this is a very real situation that can and does lead to over pressure problems...
Ammo that is placed out in the direct sunlight can be absorb heat.
Ammo that is dropped where it falls on the bullet, can push the bullet deeper.
Dented cases can decrease space inside the casing.
As ammo is feeding in the gun, the bullet (if it is a loose fit) can also be set back deeper.
Ammo that is chambered many times over and over may have bullet setback.
This can have dramatic affect if this happens. Reports have shown it to raise pressures drastically and in some instances catastrophically. Contrary to this setback issue is this article...https://plus.google.com/+luckygunner/posts/CiVxdHvWjYS
Here is the rub...
Quotemanufacturers of commercial ammunition wisely test and select powders that are not as susceptible to changes in temperature or, obviously, bullet setback.
However the gun manufactures using quality steels and processes design and make their guns/barrels to withstand very harsh and extreme conditions. So we do have to consider all of the "What If Conditions"
The article about bullet set-back is some good info.
Here is the thing I think we sometimes loose sight of.
KaBooms are often not caused by one condition. They are confluence of conditions that make a perfect storm. Hot ammo in a dirty bore with a tight chamber and some bullet set-back, for instance. Or fouled chamber plus an over-charge plus a gun that will fire slightly out of battery. Or a bullet set back + case head defect + hot gun + a couple minutes between chambering the round and firing which raised the temp of the primer and powder compounds.
Split case mouths only are an issue to the reloader. They almost never result in damage to the gun, danger to the shooter, or a malfunction. They are usually related to issues with the brass - an undetected quality defect.
If Underwood ammo was consistently defective to the point that it was patently unsafe, we would have lots more reports and occasionally much more serious issues.
But, since his ammo is, as we all agree, on the edge of what 10mm can be loaded to, it takes fewer conditions to align before you see a split case or a big smile.
I tend to fall on the "buyer beware" category here. If you want pure plinking ammo, get a 9mm and buy white box at wal-mart. If you have sought out a 10mm and tracked down Underwood Ammo, you gotta be kinda clueless NOT to have realized that this is at the limit ammo.
From what I have heard, Kevin has taken care of the few people who have had issues. But, his business model is to provide economical high performance ammo. I personally don't feel compelled to impeach him for not changing his business practice for a couple of incidents, given his business model.
But, this is only one mans opinion. I completely respect others.
Very nice posts. I concur and have nothing to add. 8)
It is in my nature to look for answers and solutions rather than laying blame for faults!
I have been known to work on issues with the "What If?" angles in my previous career! It was part of being a safety officer and leader of a bunch of dedicated people, while we worked in a hazardous environment be it small or large Fire, EMS or Haz-Mat scene and some times all three together!
It is why I air on the side of safety!
I wish we were provided answers as it relates to some of the issues but it is unlikely! :( :-\
Quote from: The_Shadow on June 07 2013 10:17:58 AM MDTBefore I read Redline's post here I posted this on another topic in this section;
You know a lot of people are speculating that whatever issues where caused (need proof) "THAT IT IS THE AMMO'S FAULT!"
Here is the rub...
Quotemanufacturers of commercial ammunition wisely test and select powders that are not as susceptible to changes in temperature or, obviously, bullet setback.
However the gun manufactures using quality steels and processes design and make their guns/barrels to withstand very harsh and extreme conditions. So we do have to consider all of the "What If Conditions"
Specifically toward Underwood's 10mm ammo (not Starline brass) -
200 grain XTP bullets bumping 1300 FPS from less than a 5" barrel using 800-X and a 135gr Nosler bullet load that had the highest 800-X charge weight we saw between multiple pull-downs of the same load had the primer fall out after firing and horrendous smilies noted by numerous others, all equal one thing; It was the ammo's fault.
So even when not taking into account guns that blew up, among many of the other possibilities you mentioned, we have clear signs from multiple shooter's platforms and from pull-downs of ammo before it was ever subsequently fired that it is the ammo's fault. Then add in the guns that did blow up and/or were left with a permanent malfunction (something broken/tweaked) and I don't see any other way to look at it than that it was the ammo's fault.
When the 1st one or two issues ever came to light I was still waiting to seem more data come to light too as you very eloquently laid out. In my mind I've seen enough to make/pass judgement. And again, my judgment is that overall it is the ammo's fault. That's not to say in a couple or so occasions other points you brought up didn't enhance some of what we've seen. But in my mind we're beyond anything else outside the ammo itself being the major culprit.
As for bullet set-back; in terms of 200gr XTP loads, I say no way within the context of what we know as a whole. In terms of 165gr Golden Saber loads showing horrendous smilies after being fired through Glock platforms, I say maybe, but probably not.
Again, this isn't about bashing Underwood. It's only about the facts given the info we know.
Quote from: sqlbullet on June 07 2013 10:37:47 AM MDTIf Underwood ammo was consistently defective to the point that it was patently unsafe, we would have lots more reports and occasionally much more serious issues.
But, since his ammo is, as we all agree, on the edge of what 10mm can be loaded to, it takes fewer conditions to align before you see a split case or a big smile.
I tend to fall on the "buyer beware" category here. If you want pure plinking ammo, get a 9mm and buy white box at wal-mart. If you have sought out a 10mm and tracked down Underwood Ammo, you gotta be kinda clueless NOT to have realized that this is at the limit ammo.
From what I have heard, Kevin has taken care of the few people who have had issues. But, his business model is to provide economical high performance ammo. I personally don't feel compelled to impeach him for not changing his business practice for a couple of incidents, given his business model.
But, this is only one mans opinion. I completely respect others.
I think there's another aspect to keep in mind. That is that what we know comes from a limited source. Namely internet forums. Most shooters are not on internet forums. There could well be more to this story out there than we realize. In my mind it would be ignorant to think otherwise, given the amount we know just from a relatively small group.
Another thing is that some people will simply not come forward with issues they've had personal experience with for various reasons, even if they are forum (whatever forum) members.
Lastly (that I can think of) many shooters just don't pay the attention needed to know if they were shooting ammo that showed high pressure signs. And most shooters (10mm in this case) don't load their own ammo, working up their own loads, which generally equates to not knowing what they would look for as they don't know there may be something to look for. Most simply don't give thought to factory ammo. They buy it, shoot it, leave the brass lay where ever it landed, and go home without giving anything a second thought UNLESS their gun started to majorly malfunction or blew up, and even then they don't have a clue what to look for or why. They would probably call Underwood via the phone number on the website, and none of us would be any the wiser.
Don't get me wrong. My intention is not to blow anything out of proportion. I simply feel we've seen enough in our little world, that outside our little world it's hard to imagine we've seen it all. Sure would be interesting to see Underwood's monthly sales figures from when he first made the 10mm Ammo available till now.
Redline, have you had any issue personally with any of the Underwood products? ??? I only know via reading post of two blown guns one in 10mm the other in 357Sig.
Are you aware that there are many guys who have pushed beyond even Underwood's loads for IMR800X.
The original IMR data did show way more powder for some bullet weights than what is being used currently, but has since been revised.
What does this mean, anyone, any company, can have issues, be it quality control, components not up to spec or of different batch or lot consistencies.
I have no issues with the products that Underwood provides, but then I haven't bought any, but I have tested and evaluated what has been put in front of me.
Underwood as business has to be the one to re-evaluate or re-test samples to see if they conform to his own specs. If he receives a batch of out of spec components then that's on him to adjust or return the items. The sole responsibility is on his company.
To date I have only had three uh-ohs to label them that. One was Remington Golden Bullet in my 22A that blew the end of the case out the side. Hit a nerve for a moment due to powder to the glasses and slight powder burn to the hand. They ended up sending a full refund and soon after started making the new and improved Golden Bullets. I have some now and shoot them again with no issues but at that time plenty of reports of failed Golden Bullets.
I had two Armscor brass case split out of a 50 pack and the last was a PBR .357 Magnum in reloaded Nickel that split the case in my GP100.
None of my firearms were ever damaged.
I'm not a reloader at this point in my life, but I'm curious if its mainly the nickel cased cartridges being split or also brass cases. I've also got some older Underwood DE loaded rounds and they are brass cased but I noticed the newer full power Underwood loads are nickel. I wonder why Underwood would go this route and not brass for the full power loads and nickel for the under powered 10's.
Here's my two... still have the pictures :o PBR Ammo .357 in once fired Nickel out of GP100:
(http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/543280_410482085656496_783593633_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/551592_410482582323113_720350052_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/282785_410482345656470_414036769_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/556561_410482782323093_1066105924_n.jpg)
I shared all this with Anthony. It was a hot reload and Anthony suspected just being Nickel. Tons of other ammo and HOT HOT without another failure.
My Armscor 180gr that was loaded about 1300 FPS at the time out of my Witness Match. Standard Armscor brass:
(http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/456223_391479250890113_1625727055_o.jpg)
(http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/474956_391751430862895_253799561_o.jpg)
(http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/476523_391751114196260_1176966779_o.jpg)
Never another out of this pistol as well and it's had some nasty stuff put through it!
There have been many brass producers who have had issues at one time or another as has been shown.
Very typical of federal brass, the last batch at of used Federal Brass I purchased that was shot by FBI thru the MP-5 10mm's had several, they were said to have been picked thru. But out of 1350 pieces 50 were split long ways on that initial firing. One was not found till after I re-sized it and re-inspected it. So yes it does happen, most times it is not an issue if it does.
Star-Line (Brass) brass is usually very soft by nature, it is sold as being a reloadable type brass. Their (nickel plated) should not be having the splitting issues but it is possible they had something in their process that made them prone to the splitting on the initial firing as well. Cleaning, forming, annealing, plating, polishing all of which could induce problems.
Quote from: The_Shadow on June 07 2013 04:21:49 PM MDTRedline, have you had any issue personally with any of the Underwood products? ???
No, from the standpoint I won't fire them through my stock Glock barrel.
QuoteI only know via reading post of two blown guns one in 10mm the other in 357Sig.
I never kept track to say how many their were total is there was actually more than one 10mm platform.
Regardless, what I consider just as bad are case ruptures at the 6 o'clock position where the brass was to some extent unsupported.
Like here - http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=414533 (http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=414533)
Close after, what I consider almost as bad, and still unacceptable are primers falling out of the primer pockets after firing. Your experience comes to mind, along with this one -
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=391251&highlight=Underwood (http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=391251&highlight=Underwood)
In that one the guy fired 23 UW 10mm rounds (135gr Nosler) and the primer fell out of every single one.
QuoteAre you aware that there are many guys who have pushed beyond even Underwood's loads for IMR800X.
What's your point? Are you saying extreme smilies, primers falling out after firing, people's hands being bruised and burned, and at least one KB that we remember off the top of our heads is acceptable, all specifically regarding 10mm UW loads? This, not even taking into account top end loads with varying powder charges that in my view and some others is outside the scope of being realistic. This doesn't even include the chance there are other instances we simply aren't aware of.
Look, I'm all for people making up their own minds. At this point I'm not sure any of us have entirely made up our mind one way or another yet. I know I haven't. By the same token I am going to err on the side of caution. We're (I should probably say
I'm) not talking about some single obscure incident. There are numerous factors from various 10mm loads all from the same manufacturer showing everything from somewhat catastrophic signs to easily overpressure signs in some percentage of total production. We are not seeing this from any other manufacturer, we never have for any amount of time in the rare instances were issues did raise their ugly heads being that in pretty much all past cases (Double Tap of the past comes to mind, along with the introduction of 357SIG when setback issues almost became a commonality) these types of overpressure issues were corrected promptly.
QuoteThe original IMR data did show way more powder for some bullet weights than what is being used currently, but has since been revised.
Again, what's your point in the context of this discussion? Yeah, it was revised. Hornady has revised some of their 10mm data too and specifically says it's because they used to use the copper crusher system and have since switched to piezoelectric. Regardless, how are you seeing it relating to the discussion at hand? I just don't see the relevance.
QuoteWhat does this mean, anyone, any company, can have issues, be it quality control, components not up to spec or of different batch or lot consistencies.
So your point with some of the above you talked about was just making the point that negative issues can come from more than one place outside of the manufacturer's direct control? I've discussed that below and see no relevance in relation to UW 10mm ammo with most of it, but do attribute UW's issues to having poor QC in the case of too much powder in some rounds that are already meant to be relatively hot loads to begin with. Too much powder is too much powder and obviously has nothing to do with any make of brass, even if the brass is substandard.
QuoteI have no issues with the products that Underwood provides, but then I haven't bought any, but I have tested and evaluated what has been put in front of me.
And you had at least one major issue (unless primers falling out of a spent case is no big deal to you). This, plus your sample sizes are not statistically very telling. Certainly they are useful as another piece of a much larger puzzle. I look at everything going on including your pull downs and mine and let judgment evolve from there.
QuoteUnderwood as business has to be the one to re-evaluate or re-test samples to see if they conform to his own specs. If he receives a batch of out of spec components then that's on him to adjust or return the items. The sole responsibility is on his company.
I think we would all agree on that.
To some extent it seems to me we are on the same page. I think we're just further away from each other in how we're deciphering what's in the data set and how we each choose to proceed from there. To me it's not even a discussion we should need to be having at all. But issues, regardless who's fault, do exist. My simple wish would be that Kevin continues to put out a nice hot load compared to most other factory fodder out there, but with some control allowing for a consistency level that removes about 95% of the concerns floating around. So far we haven't seen it. Hopefully in the not too distant future we do.
Redline, I am not trying to advise you or any one else, one way or the other about what ammo they decide to use. We are learning from each other, good, bad or indifferent, hopefully not beating each other up in the process.
What I am saying is there are many different guns in which people are utilizing UW, DT, Corbon, BB and their own handloads as well as a host of other types of ammo in. If someone is having issues then they need to re-evaluate their guns' performance, the ammo's performance and seek information or contact the manufactures directly for answers. What we are doing here is, applying our knowledge and observations as it pertains to what we learn.
I'm not trying to turn this into any personal attacks on anyone or promote or deter anyone's' products...merely just observations and documentations and suggestions for to help others understand the information.
If certain manufacturers of ammo are producing loads that are not safe in certain guns, these manufacturers should specify so on the boxes for the ammo as well as their websites.
This gets back to prior posts. Most of the 10mm guns in existence were designed two decades ago for original Norma spec ammo. If newer manufacturers are producing ammo that is higher than the original pressures they should specify same. Again, are we tailoring the ammo to the existing guns, or do we have to tailor our guns to the newer ammo?
Quote from: The_Shadow on June 08 2013 08:02:43 PM MDTRedline, I am not trying to advise you or any one else, one way or the other about what ammo they decide to use. We are learning from each other, good, bad or indifferent, hopefully not beating each other up in the process.
I never took it that you were.
QuoteWhat I am saying is there are many different guns in which people are utilizing UW, DT, Corbon, BB and their own handloads as well as a host of other types of ammo in. If someone is having issues then they need to re-evaluate their guns' performance, the ammo's performance and seek information or contact the manufactures directly for answers. What we are doing here is, applying our knowledge and observations as it pertains to what we learn.
In my mind this discussion is and has been only in relation to UW ammo. I don't know why you think we need to evaluate UW ammo's performance, as we have, and that's what this whole discussion directly entails.
I don't need to evaluate my G20 or G29 performance. I'm well aware what my G20 and G29 are generally capable of. The issue is Kevin Underwood saying my guns (among others) are fine for his ammo which clearly is not necessarily true given the clear overpressure signs we've seen in numerous instances.
QuoteI'm not trying to turn this into any personal attacks on anyone or promote or deter anyone's' products...merely just observations and documentations and suggestions for to help others understand the information.
I either, nor did I think you were. Not sure where you're going with understanding the information. We've been bringing it up for months now. It's pretty clear UW has released some ammo from the factory loaded beyond maximum SAAMI specifications (I would guess easily +38,700 PSI). On top of it it would seem there may be limited brass issues too. Though I'm not willing to bet on that at this point. It would seem you are, which is fine.
PS - Sorry if I came across indelicately. Only meant to throw out my thoughts as I have deciphered what I've seen. To sum up our discussion I would simply say I'm more worried about what we've seen from UW than you are. No biggie. 8)
Quote from: 4949shooter on June 08 2013 08:53:52 PM MDTIf certain manufacturers of ammo are producing loads that are not safe in certain guns, these manufacturers should specify so on the boxes for the ammo as well as their websites.
This gets back to prior posts. Most of the 10mm guns in existence were designed two decades ago for original Norma spec ammo. If newer manufacturers are producing ammo that is higher than the original pressures they should specify same. Again, are we tailoring the ammo to the existing guns, or do we have to tailor our guns to the newer ammo?
I couldn't agree more.
Same here. It's about as safe as one can shoot with desired results. All though nothing in firearms is full proof. Right now I like the Nugent load, U/W's 180's and 165's. Giving it further thought recently, lighter loads in 10mm ill stick with factory loads like Hornandy's 155.