What do you think from the new info? Has Underwood pulled the power plug? Headed down to the land of the rest of the 10mm makers. I would say that if so it was a matter of both product and economics. Components are still not something your guaranteed to have coming your way on a consistent plan. Not now anyway. So you use what you can and produce what you can sell.
Not based on what I've seen so far. It's seems his 200gr XTP loads are still easily doing 1250 FPS. We have seen an adjustment in powder charge from a load or two, but not sure to what extent it's changing anything. Some of the time the UW loads were going faster than advertised, so I suspect they're either going to still hit what's always been advertised, or pretty close if not.
Redline I hope you are right.I am just afraid he will have to scale back on power to match components available or be forced too over people going crazy if they get a smile on their brass. I have a lot of the Ammo in different loads from 155 to 220 andhave never had a problem but that does not mean it cannot happen to me tomorrow. What I like is the freedom to use full power ammo and blow my gun up if I so chose. Now the common sense quote.I do not want to blow my gun or me up but you have to believe a product being sold to shoot will do just hat safely. We buy cars that run 200mph but most do not have the skill to drive it there. Still does not mean they can not make it for you to burn the road down if you choose.Common sense disclaimer.I do not drive that way not to kill me but not to kill you. If we all would just use even a little common sense the world would improve 10 fold.
I'm thinking U\W is finding a balance for real 10 that produces.
Agreed, although I only have experience with 2 of his loads. But the 180 gr TMJ have been super accurate. I think it is a great balance of power and accuracy.
Kevin isn't changing across the board yet. He said I can save my money retesting everything ;)
Their cs kicks ass.
Ordered yesterday. Got my tracking today.
You listening psa???
To me Intercooler that is good to know. I for one hope he leaves it where its at. If ou do not like it do not buy it. If you want Federal or Remington buy them. I hope we all get to the point we can buy what we want. That would be a nice thought instead of having to search for anything we can find.
Kevin will be The Top Dog again when he makes some changes. Those are coming and they will be the strongest out there plus everything else to go with it. We will still have platforms out there that really shouldn't be running the top of the heap though yet people will.
If the ammo is not made for a certain gun it should say so on the box. Then if you blow yourself up do not take the government line and say the government should protect me from myself. If you are weak in the gene pool you need eliminated and usually you will eliminate yourself by doing something stupid. gonna be stupid gotta be tough.
Quote from: Intercooler on May 31 2013 06:13:05 PM MDT
Kevin will be The Top Dog again when he makes some changes. Those are coming and they will be the strongest out there plus everything else to go with it. We will still have platforms out there that really shouldn't be running the top of the heap though yet people will.
So they are increasing the loads again?
Down the road they will after some R&D work in 2014. It's won't be an across the board thing but those needing it will be changed and the spreads reduced.
2014 is a long way off. With how quickly he took off as a company I personally would revamp my lineup a little faster to ensure I was the best option available so someone else with a similar mindset as him didn't sweep in and take his place at the top.
Only 6 months away but currently I don't see anyone other than PBR that could via for it. Buffalo Bore has shrunk it's line-up with no new offerings, Double Tap has a good assortment but the cost and performance are strikes and nothing left. If Anthony adds the 155 he has slated and changes the bullet selection it would be hard to beat! Underwood and PBR going forward are going to sell more 10mm ammo than I bet the other two combined.
What type of bullet is Anthony looking at for the 155's?
I've never felt there needed to be any changes to the intentions Kevin's loads were loaded to. I've just felt he had a sloppy load practice with minimal QC that were putting some percentage of the loads over the top and causing negative issues for some people.
I sure am interested to see what changes he makes when the time comes.
I don't know that I would characterize them as "sloppy". But, 800X doesn't meter well. So even with good reloading practice...Hand weight 10% of the charges thrown, visualy inspect, etc...you are going to get some larger swings with 800X than with Longshot. And larger swings with Longshot than with AA#9.
But, the swings with 800X are large enough that they certainly cause me concern as well.
Well, Given the current supply status and regulations being changed (California Micro Stamping laws for one), we may see many more things being changed in the near future. >:( Let's not forget "O"Commie is still in office and they are so underhanded and low down unlawful that they are pulling out any and all stops to disarm Americans any way they can! :o
Therefore I applaud Kevin for his work at keeping up with his products, their performance, to maintain a happy and content customer base. He is putting together premium components to assemble premium quality products. In today's world of business, it is tough to do what he is doing at the price point he is providing his customers. The small swings we are seeing in powder charge weights are not uncommon to mechanized production practices. If you want tighter tolerances you need to handload your own to hand weighed match grade specs. This is what I do for myself! ;D
Heck, locally around here most all the LGS have given up on components, powders and primers... :-[
Quote from: sqlbullet on June 02 2013 09:04:38 AM MDT
I don't know that I would characterize them as "sloppy". But, 800X doesn't meter well. So even with good reloading practice...Hand weight 10% of the charges thrown, visualy inspect, etc...you are going to get some larger swings with 800X than with Longshot. And larger swings with Longshot than with AA#9.
One of the main reasons I run Accurate Powders
They meter like water
Very consistant
Quote from: sqlbullet on June 02 2013 09:04:38 AM MDTI don't know that I would characterize them as "sloppy". But, 800X doesn't meter well. So even with good reloading practice...Hand weight 10% of the charges thrown, visualy inspect, etc...you are going to get some larger swings with 800X than with Longshot. And larger swings with Longshot than with AA#9.
But, the swings with 800X are large enough that they certainly cause me concern as well.
My thought(s) is/are; One shouldn't get larger swings that they wouldn't have planned into the equation to begin with based on the limitations of the charging equipment being used if there was any proper time and thought put into setting up said equipment.
Obviously in this case we're specifically talking about the most powerfull factory loads in 10mm Auto which are already pushing the envelope (and beyond a good handful of times already) for some firearm makes. We're talking about basic stuff here, not something insane like verifying the chemical composition and overall makeup of each new lot of powder.
Literally sloppy or not depending on one's own definition and or loose terminology (semantics) there have been negative issues regarding above said ammunition. Too many in my mind. Other's opinions will vary. By the same token I see no excuse for it.
For some it simply won't matter for various reasons, but the main one being the platform they are actually shooting the ammo through. I highly doubt anyone shooting a Kimber would notice anything out of the ordinary whatsoever other than possibly a primer falling out after firing, but nothing in anyway detrimental to the firearm. With the Glocks it has gone beyond that, sometimes detrimental to the firearm, and sometimes not (bad smilies,...). It would be one thing if he had a disclaimer against using that ammo in Glocks. At of now there isn't and never has been.
Regardless, it seems Kevin has finally decided to take action. How that works out, time will tell. No doubt going to Power Pistol in some loads should help to some extent. Plus there are at least rumors/claims he's making more changes in the future. What those possible future changes relate to we don't even know yet.
Underwood is the only ammo my selection of 10mm's get fed. Otherwise I might
as well just shoot 9mm or 40S&W. Kevins 10mm is the closest thing to what the 10mm
was meant to be.
Given that the 10mm was meant to be 200 grains or FMJ at 1200 fps, and Kevin gives 1250+ fps for 200 grain HP, I think we can all agree he exceeds what the 10mm was designed to be by spec! :D
Truth.
Quote from: sqlbullet on June 03 2013 11:06:54 AM MDT
Given that the 10mm was meant to be 200 grains or FMJ at 1200 fps, and Kevin gives 1250+ fps for 200 grain HP, I think we can all agree he exceeds what the 10mm was designed to be by spec! :D
Some were pushing ~1300 FPS from all of 4.75" of barrel (I know you showed "+", I just felt I had to reemphasize ;D).
As for what the 10mm was meant to do, I look at it more as a "37,500 PSI" kind of thing, and I don't feel it's out of the realm of possibility that 800-X adds to FPS without going beyond the same pressure level as the original Norma Load(s) did.
Also, I've heard SAAMI may have had the 10mm Auto rated higher at one point and later dropped the PSI levels on it. I've never quite figured out for sure if that's always just been rumor or not.
I think it was orginally rated in CUP, not PSI. The two systems are not comparable in how they measure, so there isn't really a way to correlate them.
IF that's true, I agree. Not sure if that was really the case though.
Glocks can have problems down to BVAC level. Know your firearm and what it can take IMO.
They do? I've heard of BVAC problems, but not when it wasn't BVAC's fault. Is there something I'm missing?
BVAC has had some issues. This was in relation to ammo at that level on the low end of 10mm. Their has been issues up and down the range. I'm into the thousands of Underwood Ammo rounds in every caliber from 9mm to .44 Magnum and haven't had my first issue in any platform, grain, bullet, powder, brass, primer. I'm just lucky or something. ;D
My latest order are 135's Underwood Nickel. Or I should say the latest order.
So what's your plan?
I must be the luckest guy on the planet as I use 2 Glocks a lot and I mean a lot and have never ever had a problem with Underwood ammo. I have more problems with that slow garbage,Prvi,Federal,Remington and some others so much I will not even shoot them at the range. /cheap means nothing to me if it does not work. I will just take thechance of it going bang rather than going clink.Now in my new Ruger the 10mm is a piece of cake even loaded to bunker bursting levels. The Underwood recoils is heavy but I am not recoil conscious.I guess I just got a batch of 6 or 8 good Glocks as I got 3 G29's,3G20's and 2 G20's all 3rd Gen.I keep 2 as my shooters,carriers ,work guns.Trade one of the SF's am selling now on this forum a G29 and a G20 and will still have a few left.And about 2000 3000rds ammo. Mostly Underwood.I am working on a new project and a few of my 10's had to move as 8 of them was plenty and I traded one of them for another 10 revolver.But the others are going for a couple of similar calibers but in SA revolvers. For one thing it slows down my ammo burn rate from 16 to 6 and the accuracy is much better with the 6.5 inch barrel.I am an Underwood believer until wounded by the ammo or gun blown up.I am sure if its gonna happen it will be me by the number of rounds I shoot. Now I do shoot the lighter 155 loads not the 200's. There could be the difference.The bigger bullets could be the blow up factor. A guy I respect on this forum who handloads told me he would not load what kevin does in his handloads but would also not be afraid to shoot them in an emergency and he was talking the big heavy ended stuff.
Quote from: RRMan03 on June 07 2013 01:34:52 AM MDTI do shoot the lighter 155 loads not the 200's. There could be the difference.The bigger bullets could be the blow up factor.
In this case there could be some truth to that.
Il shoot them up, indoor range. ;D
All these fregg'in post about Underwoods 200 grainers has kind of got me spooked because I recieved 300 rds of the stuff around 5-3-13. I'm some what new to the 10mm but both of my 10's are 1911's a DW-Cbob and a Nighthawk Falcon and both have fully supported barrels. I just don't want to blow up or damage either of the two guns listed. I purchased this ammo mainly for deer hunting so I'll be shooting it mostly in the fall I guess but not all, as I have to do some sighting in work to do with said ammo.
I blew up an HK-91 back in the early 90's with some bad ammo and really do not want to go down that road again. So the question I ask is should I be worried or is split brass the only worries I should have.
Thanks fella's you guys sure seem to know your stuff about the 10mm and thats why I'm here.
I do not think you will have any problem with eith of those. I know the Nighthawk is top quality and everybody that has one loves the DW. It seems to be the Glock with big bullets where all the action is at from what I have been catching on the posts.I might need updated there.
You know a lot of people are speculating that whatever issues where caused (need proof) "THAT IT IS THE AMMO'S FAULT!"
Let's take a step back and consider this;
What condition is that gun in? New?/Used?
Was it cleaned and lubricated properly? This needs to include the barrel and bore.
Has the person made any changes or mods?
Was it properly put back together?
Has the gun had any previous issues?
Just having a split casing is not much of an issue. I have seen many brass split on the first firing.
Having a blow-out is a different story. Things that come to mind are over pressure, weak/defective brass, early unlock or out of battery ignition.
What about a fouled barrel? Some of the jacketed & plated bullets can leave copper fouling. We all know that lead and lead alloy can leave fouling and build up. If this fouling is allowed to build up and is not cleaned, someone running high impulse ammo through a barrel in this condition, will lead to even higher pressures as a bullet is being forced through this condition. Barrel obstruction is a very serious condition, something like a squib being a worst case comes to mind.
I always clean & inspect my barrel and bore then apply a light coat of oil with a patch after every use. Some avoid oiling like it was the plague. I don't understand that theory as I think thin coat oil would lessen the fouling.
Now this is a very real situation that can and does lead to over pressure problems...
Ammo that is placed out in the direct sunlight can be absorb heat.
Ammo that is dropped where it falls on the bullet, can push the bullet deeper.
Dented cases can decrease space inside the casing.
As ammo is feeding in the gun, the bullet (if it is a loose fit) can also be set back deeper.
Ammo that is chambered many times over and over may have bullet setback.
This can have dramatic affect if this happens. Reports have shown it to raise pressures drastically and in some instances catastrophically. Contrary to this setback issue is this article...https://plus.google.com/+luckygunner/posts/CiVxdHvWjYS (https://plus.google.com/+luckygunner/posts/CiVxdHvWjYS)
Here is the rub...
Quotemanufacturers of commercial ammunition wisely test and select powders that are not as susceptible to changes in temperature or, obviously, bullet setback.
However the gun manufactures using quality steels and processes design and make their guns/barrels to withstand very harsh and extreme conditions. So we do have to consider all of the "What If Conditions" ???
Quote from: The_Shadow on June 07 2013 10:05:22 AM MDT
You know a lot of people are speculating that whatever issues where caused (need proof) "THAT IT IS THE AMMO'S FAULT!"
Let's take a step back and consider this;
What condition is that gun in? New?/Used?
Was it cleaned and lubricated properly? This needs to include the barrel and bore.
Has the person made any changes or mods?
Was it properly put back together?
Has the gun had any previous issues?
Just having a split casing is not much of an issue. I have seen many brass split on the first firing.
Having a blow-out is a different story. Things that come to mind are over pressure, weak/defective brass, early unlock or out of battery ignition.
What about a fouled barrel? Some of the jacketed & plated bullets can leave copper fouling. We all know that lead and lead alloy can leave fouling and build up. If this fouling is allowed to build up and is not cleaned, someone running high impulse ammo through a barrel in this condition, will lead to even higher pressures as a bullet is being forced through this condition. Barrel obstruction is a very serious condition, something like a squib being a worst case comes to mind.
I always clean & inspect my barrel and bore then apply a light coat of oil with a patch after every use. Some avoid oiling like it was the plague. I don't understand that theory as I think thin coat oil would lessen the fouling.
Now this is a very real situation that can and does lead to over pressure problems...
Ammo that is placed out in the direct sunlight can be absorb heat.
Ammo that is dropped where it falls on the bullet, can push the bullet deeper.
Dented cases can decrease space inside the casing.
As ammo is feeding in the gun, the bullet (if it is a loose fit) can also be set back deeper.
Ammo that is chambered many times over and over may have bullet setback.
This can have dramatic affect if this happens. Reports have shown it to raise pressures drastically and in some instances catastrophically. Contrary to this setback issue is this article...https://plus.google.com/+luckygunner/posts/CiVxdHvWjYS (https://plus.google.com/+luckygunner/posts/CiVxdHvWjYS)
Here is the rub...Quotemanufacturers of commercial ammunition wisely test and select powders that are not as susceptible to changes in temperature or, obviously, bullet setback.
However the gun manufactures using quality steels and processes design and make their guns/barrels to withstand very harsh and extreme conditions. So we do have to consider all of the "What If Conditions" ???
Good post, and I agree. Mostly.
Dropping a cartridge onto the bullet is
less likely to cause a setback, compared to dropping it on the case head. Newton would agree.
Good article from Lucky Gunner. His conclusions seem to be inline with my observations over the years. While bullet setback can be an issue with some platforms, I've yet to see any indication of a catastrophic event caused by it. While I believe it could be enough to push a marginally overpressure cartridge, over the edge, I've not seen it. Bullet setback just doesn't happen, with properly loaded cartridges, fired in "normal" handguns (rifles are very different). I've had bullet-shift issues over the years in big magnums, and the result was ALWAYS the same. They NEVER set deeper. Quite the opposite. The bullets always pull longer, not shorter. I had one incident with some .44M "moly" bullets, and after the first round fired (of 6 in the cylinder), the powder in the remaining 5 lit off. If you think BD is flashy with just one 10mm out the muzzle, try this (NO, not really). Looked like a turn-of-the-century photo session. If your bullets are setting back from firing, chambering, or dropping, your reloading practice and/or components need to be closely examined. If it's happening in a "factory" cartridge, something is REALLY wrong.
DM1906 writes;
QuoteDropping a cartridge onto the bullet is less likely to cause a setback, compared to dropping it on the case head. Newton would agree.
I have to post things like that to see who is paying attention! LOL~ 8) It also provides another point of view when we get good feed back! ;D
Quote from: The_Shadow on June 07 2013 10:05:22 AM MDTI always clean & inspect my barrel and bore then apply a light coat of oil with a patch after every use. Some avoid oiling like it was the plague. I don't understand that theory as I think thin coat oil would lessen the fouling.
In my experience oil (ultra thin coat and the lesser side of a medium film coat) always attracts fouling when there is fouling to be attracted, compared to seeing less overall fouling when no visible or felt film is left behind. No doubt the amount of fouling ends up being varied depending on how efficiently or not the powder charge burned up.
That said, I do not avoid oiling like the plague. I oil all metal every single place I can get oil to. For me the variance between others is probably then limited to the extent I can get any residual oil wiped off, where I want it wiped off. That's not to say I "clean" off the oil, as I don't. I limit oil removal to what I can simply wipe off with a rag (patches inside the bore).
What the boils down to for me in a nutshell is leaving behind an ultra thin film of oil behind on most surfaces, leaving behind a medium-heavy film on working surfaces, and not leaving behind oil that can be seen or felt in the bore (including the chamber) and on the breech face (including inside the striker track).
The above is based on my Glocks only. For revolvers I've had it gets more detailed. For any steel framed semi-autos it gets more detailed too.
When talking ammo blow ups you have to consider a fowled gun of course and oh so many people use to much oil. Let me ask am oil fowling question. Back around the early 50's the was a compound invented called WD. Anybody know what that stands for. It is Water Dispersant. It was used on Nuclear Missles to prevent water build up and corrosion.Then the rest of the story the 40 is how many changes they made to get it to where the Air Force wanted it to be. All that being said.It being a very light lubircant and a very high water /moisture dispersant what would it not be one of the best things you could use on a gun.Its not oil,it is a synthetic compound made to remove water and barely lubricate and to prevent dirt and dust from accumulation on the parts. Now why do people not like it for use as a gun protector or to keep your barrel from fowling from grime/dirt/powder. Is there something I do not know about here.If it was made to protect nuclear weapons you think it could protect a 38 and its barrel.
WD40 is fine as a surface protectant (it's intended/designed use). However, it is also a very effective solvent, and will break the lubricating properties of heavier (gun) oil. Gun oil, or light machine oil, is much heavier than WD40, and the viscosity is necessary for lubrication of internal gun parts (as they were designed). Use it, if you want, to protect the bore and/or the external surfaces, or for storage, but keep it out of "the works" during operation.
Quote from: RRMan03 on June 07 2013 08:35:21 AM MDT
I do not think you will have any problem with eith of those. I know the Nighthawk is top quality and everybody that has one loves the DW. It seems to be the Glock with big bullets where all the action is at from what I have been catching on the posts.I might need updated there.
Thanks for the imfo and I've heard of the glocks being blown up just was'nt sure if other platforms have been blown up also.